The OotS Thread II

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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Sriad »

No X's for eyes... is this the Kobold Rogue O'Chul? :D
Crazedwraith wrote:#840 Is Up And once again. V is kinda being a dick. Was s/he always this amoral?
As has been said, "the deep end of the alignment pool"... though it's kinda the DM's call where exactly using a dominated enemy this way falls. I could see a good case for the mere amorality of Neutral.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Crazedwraith wrote:#840 Is Up And once again. V is kinda being a dick. Was s/he always this amoral?
This is the same V who repeatedly blew up Belkar with Explosive Runes just for irritating him/her. The Kobold is an actual enemy who actually shot V repeatedly.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Serafina »

Well, Belkar did not seem to be seriously hurt by those explosive runes. Certainly hurt, but not in a long-lasting or threatening fashion.
The Kobold is actually quite comparable to Belkar (both evil, both potential threats, both desering punishment for earlier actions), so we just have to judge how much he was hurt by this.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Sriad wrote:No X's for eyes... is this the Kobold Rogue O'Chul? :D
Crazedwraith wrote:#840 Is Up And once again. V is kinda being a dick. Was s/he always this amoral?
As has been said, "the deep end of the alignment pool"... though it's kinda the DM's call where exactly using a dominated enemy this way falls. I could see a good case for the mere amorality of Neutral.
Evasion. I'd say Improved Evasion, but he clearly took at least some damage.

I've never played a Paladin, and Valen knows there's a reason for that, but I see using a mortal foe as a trap detector as simply doing unto him what he would gladly do unto you. Except you're doing it first, and with style.

It's not like the Kobold would be charitably inclined towards them if V's control slipped, even if they did start being nice to him. They've already conscripted him into 2 adventures (one for Girard, one on the ranch dressing plane) used him to carry stuff around, and as a litter box.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by LadyTevar »

I wonder if this is leading up to the Kobold breaking free and killing Belkar.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Irbis »

Ahriman238 wrote:I've never played a Paladin, and Valen knows there's a reason for that, but I see using a mortal foe as a trap detector as simply doing unto him what he would gladly do unto you. Except you're doing it first, and with style.
What :wtf:

You are aware what you described is an attempt to justify what could easily include chaotic evil behaviour (the 'simply doing unto him what he would gladly do unto you' bit) and it would never fly near any real paladin or even LG person?
It's not like the Kobold would be charitably inclined towards them if V's control slipped, even if they did start being nice to him. They've already conscripted him into 2 adventures (one for Girard, one on the ranch dressing plane) used him to carry stuff around, and as a litter box.
So, what you're saying is, when you enslave someone and make you do work for him, the proper course of action for supposedly good people isn't to repair damage done, but simply pile up more abuse since he already suffered some? :wtf:

There is no justification of what Haley and V did, nor any excuse for their behaviour to be 'neutral' in some way, it was downright evil, IMHO. But then again, both of them executed defenceless people before in cold blood, this is hardly the worst of their crimes.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

my favorite bit of funny con role playing involved 3 paladins (Representing gods of justice, sacrifice, & Light respectively) and thier near constant arguing.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Darmalus »

V has stopped an evil creature from performing evil acts, and in addition, is now making that evil creature help the forces of good in a good quest (preventing the end of the world). Not only that, but earlier, V wiped out 5% of all evil dragons & dragon kin! V should be radiating an aura of good by this point. Ah, the joys of a universe where you can walk into a village, cast a single spell, murder a third of the population, and would is objectively better for it! Don't you just love the D&D alignment system?
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Rogue 9 »

I would just like to point out that Vaarsuvius ordered the kobold to search for traps to the best of his ability. Which means that's what he did. The joke is that his searching is about as good as Belkar's tracking. :razz:
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Molyneux »

Darmalus wrote:V has stopped an evil creature from performing evil acts, and in addition, is now making that evil creature help the forces of good in a good quest (preventing the end of the world). Not only that, but earlier, V wiped out 5% of all evil dragons & dragon kin! V should be radiating an aura of good by this point. Ah, the joys of a universe where you can walk into a village, cast a single spell, murder a third of the population, and would is objectively better for it! Don't you just love the D&D alignment system?
Not all of the dragons/dragonkin he destroyed were necessarily evil.

I am a little disappointed, really; I was hoping V would follow through on his recruitment talk from earlier, get the kobold as a legitimate member of the group. Also...if that kobold ever gets free of domination, he is going to be PISSED that they left his companion behind.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Irbis wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:I've never played a Paladin, and Valen knows there's a reason for that, but I see using a mortal foe as a trap detector as simply doing unto him what he would gladly do unto you. Except you're doing it first, and with style.
What :wtf:

You are aware what you described is an attempt to justify what could easily include chaotic evil behaviour (the 'simply doing unto him what he would gladly do unto you' bit) and it would never fly near any real paladin or even LG person?
It's not like the Kobold would be charitably inclined towards them if V's control slipped, even if they did start being nice to him. They've already conscripted him into 2 adventures (one for Girard, one on the ranch dressing plane) used him to carry stuff around, and as a litter box.
So, what you're saying is, when you enslave someone and make you do work for him, the proper course of action for supposedly good people isn't to repair damage done, but simply pile up more abuse since he already suffered some? :wtf:

There is no justification of what Haley and V did, nor any excuse for their behaviour to be 'neutral' in some way, it was downright evil, IMHO. But then again, both of them executed defenceless people before in cold blood, this is hardly the worst of their crimes.
Like I said, I've never played a Paladin. Actually, LG characters tend not to mesh well with our preferred tactics and playing style. Once, our DM tried to saddle us with a Paladin NPC to control us (in circumstances worrying similar to Miko's meeting the group in the comic) and we spent the next three sessions coming up with harebrained schemes to trick the Paladin into falling and going on a quest for redemption far, far away from us, or arguing that association with us should kill the Paladin's status already.

Thoguh, I'll point out that of the Order of the Stick, only Roy and Durkon are LG. Elan and Haley are Chaotic Good, Belkar is either Chaotic or Lawful Evil, and V is indeterminate.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Ted C »

Darmalus wrote:V has stopped an evil creature from performing evil acts, and in addition, is now making that evil creature help the forces of good in a good quest (preventing the end of the world). Not only that, but earlier, V wiped out 5% of all evil dragons & dragon kin! V should be radiating an aura of good by this point. Ah, the joys of a universe where you can walk into a village, cast a single spell, murder a third of the population, and would is objectively better for it! Don't you just love the D&D alignment system?
I suppose it's possible that V actually did order the kobold to search for traps to the best of its ability and that it has spent even fewer points on skill points on Search than Haley. That, or it just wants to die after the litterbox incident.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Ellindsey »

Ahriman238 wrote: Thoguh, I'll point out that of the Order of the Stick, only Roy and Durkon are LG. Elan and Haley are Chaotic Good, Belkar is either Chaotic or Lawful Evil, and V is indeterminate.
According to the author, Belkar is Chaotic Evil and V is True Neutral.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Elan might wobble on the edge of Neutral Good- he doesn't seem to have any active objections to law and discipline, he's just too childish to be very good at them.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

New one up and I don't think anyone saw this coming.
Spoiler
They all have face markings like Girard Draketooth...his clan/family? Is it an illusionary massacre to throw people off? Or maybe the speculation on the OOTS forum is right and Draketooth really is part dragon, and V killed his family with Familicide.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Crazedwraith »

That seems like a real possibility to me. After all I don't think V has faced any real consequences from that yet. Or even admitted it happened to the Order as far as I know.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Irbis »

So, new OotS. Bets on who caused all this?
Darmalus wrote:V has stopped an evil creature from performing evil acts, and in addition, is now making that evil creature help the forces of good in a good quest (preventing the end of the world). Not only that, but earlier, V wiped out 5% of all evil dragons & dragon kin! V should be radiating an aura of good by this point. Ah, the joys of a universe where you can walk into a village, cast a single spell, murder a third of the population, and would is objectively better for it! Don't you just love the D&D alignment system?
That's... not how alignment system works :?

What you described is evil creature killing other evildoers, you don't become magically good from it, you're still evil. More evil, if anything.
Ahriman238 wrote:Thoguh, I'll point out that of the Order of the Stick, only Roy and Durkon are LG. Elan and Haley are Chaotic Good, Belkar is either Chaotic or Lawful Evil, and V is indeterminate.
Um, minor nitpick here - do we have even a tiny shred of evidence Haley is CG? Even liar as skilled as she is couldn't claim she is actually CG (she ended up 'correcting' herself) and frankly, based on her behaviour, I'd say she is low CN to high (as in, not completely evil) CE with a veneer of social skills Belkar lacks.

Though, IMHO Durkon should be LN, he is all-law and little good for my tastes, especially compared to Roy or Miko of all people.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Irbis wrote:Um, minor nitpick here - do we have even a tiny shred of evidence Haley is CG? Even liar as skilled as she is couldn't claim she is actually CG (she ended up 'correcting' herself) and frankly, based on her behaviour, I'd say she is low CN to high (as in, not completely evil) CE with a veneer of social skills Belkar lacks.
She seems CG leaning towards CN to me. Consider:

* Her biggest driving force for being so obsessed with theft was helping her father.

* Her targets are overwhelmingly monsters, officially evil races and enemies; not stuff like the local box of charitable donations which is what a thief version of Belkar would go after.

* She spent quite some time helping the Resistance in Azure City, instead of escaping or turning them over to Redcloak/Xykon for a profit.

* She's never IIRC shown any interest in betraying her allies or switching sides regardless of how profitable it would be or how much safer.

None of those things is evil, or even all that neutral.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Alkaloid »

Shes CG in the same way that Roy in LG, she's not perfect, but she is aware of it, isn't really proud of it and gets points for trying.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
Irbis wrote:Um, minor nitpick here - do we have even a tiny shred of evidence Haley is CG? Even liar as skilled as she is couldn't claim she is actually CG (she ended up 'correcting' herself) and frankly, based on her behaviour, I'd say she is low CN to high (as in, not completely evil) CE with a veneer of social skills Belkar lacks.
She seems CG leaning towards CN to me. Consider:

* Her biggest driving force for being so obsessed with theft was helping her father.
* Her targets are overwhelmingly monsters, officially evil races and enemies; not stuff like the local box of charitable donations which is what a thief version of Belkar would go after.
* She spent quite some time helping the Resistance in Azure City, instead of escaping or turning them over to Redcloak/Xykon for a profit.
* She's never IIRC shown any interest in betraying her allies or switching sides regardless of how profitable it would be or how much safer.

None of those things is evil, or even all that neutral.
Yes. If she's not good, she's good-ish: Neutral-Benevolent, as opposed to Neutral-Indifferent or Neutral-Malicious.

If an ordinary person is assumed to be Good by default in your D&D campaign, Haley would probably be good- she's not really more or less moral than a normal person. If an ordinary person is assumed to be Neutral, Haley would probably be neutral.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Also...

OH SHIT.

OK, it looks like they were poisoned, or at least that seems likely to me. It would explain why everyone dropped dead at mealtime. Maybe there was a traitor in the extended Draketooth clan?

It also explains why they had such an easy time getting there. Normally, the concealment of the pyramid would have been an active thing done by the clan- they'd be out in the canyons casting new illusion spells on the fly to confuse and mislead people, and probably draw them into ambushes. They wouldn't just rely on passive barriers of illusion, because those can be gradually battered down by relatively crude methods- say, someone sends a horde of minions into the area and just keeps poking at the walls looking for illusions covering cave entrances or side canyons.

With the defenders dead, there are only a few passive barriers covering the pyramid- designed to slow intruders down and alert the clan to their advance, not to actually stop anyone who's serious about finding them.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by AniThyng »

Simon_Jester wrote: OK, it looks like they were poisoned, or at least that seems likely to me. It would explain why everyone dropped dead at mealtime. Maybe there was a traitor in the extended Draketooth clan?.
Some of them were still carrying trays or not eating, so at least I think that means it wasn't the food that was poisoned.

I'll go with the Spoiler
familicide
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Isolder74 »

Considering how long ago storywise that happened, I'm not so sure. You'd think they'd be more decayed by now.
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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Mr Bean »

Isolder74 wrote:Considering how long ago storywise that happened, I'm not so sure. You'd think they'd be more decayed by now.
Desert conditions? Hot dry area with no moisture means natural mummification.

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Re: The OotS Thread II

Post by Panzersharkcat »

Irbis wrote:So, new OotS. Bets on who caused all this?
A very convincing illusion?
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