General Krell/Admiral Holdo character swap (RAR)

[FaxModem1]

Because both are Star Wars characters who led the good guys, didn't want to listen to what their subordinates had to say, suffered high casualties to the point of mutiny, while also not being main characters, and not given an audience viewpoint. Let's see how they do in each other's places.

Admiral Holdo leads Rex's squad over Umbara, while General Krell leads the Resistance away from the First Order.

What happens? Can either one do better in preventing their subordinates from mutinying while in charge? Can they accomplish their goals in the respective wars they're in? What changes are made in their approach? Are their subordinates better/worse off?

Discuss.

[Lord Revan]

Spoiler

would Krell's motivations remain the same, seeing as he wasn't actually imcompetent but rather was trying to loose on purpose and with as bad losses as possible on the republic side, since Krell was planning to defect and was trying to impress the CIS

Assuming the anwser to the spoilered question is "yes", then Holdo's troops would be somewhat better off, while the fleet under Krell would probably be utterly doomed before they had time to mutiny.

While Holdo might not be able to fully prevent the clones from questioning her orders, at least she should be able to avoid some of the seeming brain dead calls Krell made.

As for Krell we actually do get a brief overview of his mentality for command in Umbara and if applied to the resistance fleet Krell would probably try something like sending most of the resistance fleet on frontal assault again the First Order fleet, but only if that would most likely to fail or at very least cause pyrric victory for the Resistance while himself staying outside of weapons range (also probably moving his flag on to a small and insignifgant ship).

As bad as Holdo was, she's got nothing on Pong Krell.

[The Romulan Republic]

Because both are Star Wars characters who led the good guys, didn't want to listen to what their subordinates had to say, suffered high casualties to the point of mutiny, while also not being main characters, and not given an audience viewpoint. Let's see how they do in each other's places.

Admiral Holdo leads Rex's squad over Umbara, while General Krell leads the Resistance away from the First Order.

What happens? Can either one do better in preventing their subordinates from mutinying while in charge? Can they accomplish their goals in the respective wars they're in? What changes are made in their approach? Are their subordinates better/worse off?

Discuss.

Well, Holdo will do better right off the bat by virtue of the fact that she's not actively trying to get her soldiers killed. Krell was a traitor. Holdo, Poe's deranged rantings on the bridge not witstanding, is not.

How well Krell does depends upon what his goals are in part, and that's likely to change when he finds himself in a such a different situation.

Holdo's main goal is probably to live long enough to get to the Jedi Council and warn them not to trust Palpatine, given her knowledge of the future.

[Lord Revan]

Because both are Star Wars characters who led the good guys, didn't want to listen to what their subordinates had to say, suffered high casualties to the point of mutiny, while also not being main characters, and not given an audience viewpoint. Let's see how they do in each other's places.

Admiral Holdo leads Rex's squad over Umbara, while General Krell leads the Resistance away from the First Order.

What happens? Can either one do better in preventing their subordinates from mutinying while in charge? Can they accomplish their goals in the respective wars they're in? What changes are made in their approach? Are their subordinates better/worse off?

Discuss.

Well, Holdo will do better right off the bat by virtue of the fact that she's not actively trying to get her soldiers killed. Krell was a traitor. Holdo, Poe's deranged rantings on the bridge not witstanding, is not.

How well Krell does depends upon what his goals are in part, and that's likely to change when he finds himself in a such a different situation.

Holdo's main goal is probably to live long enough to get to the Jedi Council and warn them not to trust Palpatine, given her knowledge of the future.

I got the feeling we're in a "how could the other handle the same situation" rar rather then a in-universe swap.

That's why I responded assuming that main goals remain the same and both would act nothing was different from the usual.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm- if they're in-character, Krell's goals will change because there is no CIS. He probably won't give two shits about the Resistance, and he'll know a hopeless fight when he sees one (seriously, for all the blame put on Holdo, she was playing against a seriously stacked deck- the only reason the fleet wasn't anhialiated before she even took command is that Hux is a blithering moron, but Krell wont' know that).

Krell likely grabs a shuttle or fighter, or takes over one of the small escorts, and buggers off, leaving the fleet to rot. This technically fulfills the victory terms of the scenario, as he flees before his crew has a chance to mutiny.

Long term, he may end up forming his own Dark Side sect, or more likely being recruited by Kylo Ren. Given Ren's incompetence, its at least possible Krell could overthrow him, and take over the First Order.

Holdo will probably make a sincere effort to keep her troops alive. Impossible to say how well she'll do, because we've never seen her in a situation like this. The odds aren't as bad as at Crait, and she might even have some relevant foreknowledge, but we've never seen her command infantry, and it might be something well outside her experience for all I know. That said, she'll almost certainly do better in that she won't be actively trying to murder her soldiers.

If she survives the battle, she likely either goes to the Jedi Council and spills the beans, or gets picked up on Palpatine's radar and murdered.

I will note that the OP is incorrect, at least technically, that Holdo's leadership lead to massive casualties, resulting in mutiny. Very few casualties occurred under Holdo's command prior to Poe's mutiny- most of the losses occurred either during the fighter assault on the Raadus which incapacitated Leia and put Holdo in command, or during the bombardment of the transports and the subsequent ground battle on Crait, after Poe's mutiny. So characterizing Poe's mutiny as a response to high casualties caused by Holdo's command is factually incorrect.

Poe mutinied preemptively. You could argue subsequent events proved his concerns justified, I suppose, but up to that point Holdo's leadership had not caused massive losses.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, this scenario is illuminating in that, despite the superficial similarities in their circumstances, Krell and Holdo's motives and character are almost diametrically opposed. Krell is a traitor who actively plotted to get his subordinates kill to increase his own power after his planned defection. Holdo, on the other hand, is almost fanatically committed to keeping her people alive, arguably to the point that it clouds her pragmatic military judgement at times (sacrificing ships in order to preserve the lives of the crew on them).

Because both are Star Wars characters who led the good guys, didn't want to listen to what their subordinates had to say, suffered high casualties to the point of mutiny, while also not being main characters, and not given an audience viewpoint. Let's see how they do in each other's places.

Admiral Holdo leads Rex's squad over Umbara, while General Krell leads the Resistance away from the First Order.

What happens? Can either one do better in preventing their subordinates from mutinying while in charge? Can they accomplish their goals in the respective wars they're in? What changes are made in their approach? Are their subordinates better/worse off?

Discuss.

Well, Holdo will do better right off the bat by virtue of the fact that she's not actively trying to get her soldiers killed. Krell was a traitor. Holdo, Poe's deranged rantings on the bridge not witstanding, is not.

How well Krell does depends upon what his goals are in part, and that's likely to change when he finds himself in a such a different situation.

Holdo's main goal is probably to live long enough to get to the Jedi Council and warn them not to trust Palpatine, given her knowledge of the future.

I got the feeling we're in a "how could the other handle the same situation" rar rather then a in-universe swap.

That's why I responded assuming that main goals remain the same and both would act nothing was different from the usual.

Fair enough. In that case, Krell still buggers off, because he can see there's no gain to him in staying with this doomed force, and he still goes full Dark Side. It doesn't change much.

Holdo will actually try to complete the mission objectives, but probably hinder herself by prioritizing the survival of her personnel over mission objectives. How well she maintains the respect of her subordinates probably depends on whether she has the same personal conflicts with them, and they with her, as was the case with Poe. That said, the Clones are usually loyal and professional troops, and she won't have the baggage with them that Holdo did with Poe (him having just gotten demoted for getting a bunch of people killed) so she'll probably do better with them.

So, my answer is: both do "better", from their point of view, than their counterpart did in the same situation (though success in Krell's case will be measured in terms of his own survival, not completing the mission objectives).

[NecronLord]

Honestly, given that Snoke is visibly afraid of the idea of a single Jedi Master returning in Episode 7, and Krell is by far the most lethal Jedi Master we've seen, or at least among them, my bet would be on him boarding the Supremacy under some ruse and simply killing Snoke and declaring himself Supreme Leader. Certainly Snoke, Kylo and the like would be exceedingly dead if placed in a room with a hostile general Krell.

I really think we're giving short shrift to Krell when we know that all his ill considered decisions were made as overtures to Dooku and Sidious and with no other goal in mind. It's like saying someone is an idiot for burning their house down, when it turns out to be an elaborate and insurance scam. Their poor fire safety is not really an indicator of their overall intelligence at that point.

Assuming Holdo has no insider knowledge - if she does then we know she's a childhood friend of Bail Organa's daughter and could easily call him, leading to the Phantom Menace being busted in record time and fifty Jedi Masters turning up at Palpatine's house (hurrah) - then we have no real grounds to think she's particularly bad. The mutiny against her was frankly Poe having a conception of himself as having far more entitlement to information than he really had, and not something that the clones would have issue with.

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, given that Snoke is visibly afraid of the idea of a single Jedi Master returning in Episode 7, and Krell is by far the most lethal Jedi Master we've seen, or at least among them, my bet would be on him boarding the Supremacy under some ruse and simply killing Snoke and declaring himself Supreme Leader. Certainly Snoke, Kylo and the like would be exceedingly dead if placed in a room with a hostile general Krell.

In fairness to Snoke, we don't really see Snoke fight, though he can use TK to easily toy with Rey, as well as Force lightning. His defeat was down to basically a sucker-punch, and no Force user is immune to those, precog or not (see Palpatine, who was more than Krell's match). As to Kylo, he's got a lot of raw power and he isn't entirely inept when he's not distracted by his emotional baggage. He has no real emotional baggage with Krell like he does with HandLeia/Rey/Luke to fuck up his judgement and focus.

That said, I certainly think Krell would have a chance in that fight, at least against Kylo and possibly against Snoke.

I really think we're giving short shrift to Krell when we know that all his ill considered decisions were made as overtures to Dooku and Sidious and with no other goal in mind. It's like saying someone is an idiot for burning their house down, when it turns out to be an elaborate and insurance scam. Their poor fire safety is not really an indicator of their overall intelligence at that point.

Very true.

Assuming Holdo has no insider knowledge - if she does then we know she's a childhood friend of Bail Organa's daughter and could easily call him, leading to the Phantom Menace being busted in record time and fifty Jedi Masters turning up at Palpatine's house (hurrah) - then we have no real grounds to think she's particularly bad. The mutiny against her was frankly Poe having a conception of himself as having far more entitlement to information than he really had, and not something that the clones would have issue with.

Yeah, that whole thing was a personal conflict that isn't going to exist here. The clones are professionals, they won't mutiny unless given extremely good cause, and again, Holdo won't be actively trying to kill her subordinates or throw the battle. If she does make a mistake, the clones will advise her otherwise, and unlike with Poe (who had just been demoted by her now-comatose best friend for getting a bunch of people she worked with killed), she isn't likely to have any personal baggage with them to make her question their judgement. Well, there's the whole "these guys end up betraying the Jedi and serving Palpatine" thing, but that's at least less personal and not something she can really confront them on, and if she was in the Rebellion its at least possible she'd even known that Rex joined the Alliance.

[RogueIce]

For my purposes, I'm going to assume General Krell isn't trying to defect to the First Order here.

In which case, he might do better. For one, a Jedi Master holds an innate moral authority that Republic/Resistance adherents would respect, beyond his military rank or position. Further, using the Force, he could be pretty confident that Poe was not the mole, while being able to sense the growing frustration and resentment (assuming he keeps Poe at a distance as Holdo did and Poe mostly reacts the same) and could take steps to calm things down. Like letting the Hero of Starkiller Base in on the plan because outside of petty pride or some technicality, there really wasn't any reason to keep it from him.

It's difficult to be sure, though. How much of Krell being an asshole to the Clones was his innate personality, and how much was it intentional to sabotage their efforts? I mean, he did become a Jedi Master, so he probably wasn't a total douche before the Clone Wars. But it's hard to say.

As for Holdo, I think she could do a better job with the Clones. There wouldn't be worries about a mole, so she wouldn't feel the need to be cagey with them. There wasn't some grand secret on Umbara either, so no reason to withhold information. As to her combat leader role, well she was a naval officer and not a general so who knows what her competency would be; but she has Rex and other Clone Officers to guide her. I think she'd do pretty well so long as she doesn't let ego get in the way.

[The Romulan Republic]

For my purposes, I'm going to assume General Krell isn't trying to defect to the First Order here.

In which case, he might do better. For one, a Jedi Master holds an innate moral authority that Republic/Resistance adherents would respect, beyond his military rank or position. Further, using the Force, he could be pretty confident that Poe was not the mole, while being able to sense the growing frustration and resentment (assuming he keeps Poe at a distance as Holdo did and Poe mostly reacts the same) and could take steps to calm things down. Like letting the Hero of Starkiller Base in on the plan because outside of petty pride or some technicality, there really wasn't any reason to keep it from him.

There's an excellent reason, namely that Poe had no need to know, no right to know, and given the possibilities of spies on board, keeping essential plans that rely on secrecy "need to know" makes sense. Granted, the film did not really articulate this reason, but its a reasonable one for Krell or any commander to consider, based on on-screen evidence.

Krell might be able to sense what Poe is going to do and head him off, though, yeah.

It's difficult to be sure, though. How much of Krell being an asshole to the Clones was his innate personality, and how much was it intentional to sabotage their efforts? I mean, he did become a Jedi Master, so he probably wasn't a total douche before the Clone Wars. But it's hard to say.

Probably not always, no, though its pretty clear he was well down the path to the Dark Side by that point, IIRC.

As for Holdo, I think she could do a better job with the Clones. There wouldn't be worries about a mole, so she wouldn't feel the need to be cagey with them. There wasn't some grand secret on Umbara either, so no reason to withhold information. As to her combat leader role, well she was a naval officer and not a general so who knows what her competency would be; but she has Rex and other Clone Officers to guide her. I think she'd do pretty well so long as she doesn't let ego get in the way.

As long as she is willing to take advice from Rex she'll do okay, yeah. The Clones are much more disciplined and reliable than Poe and company, and they have plenty of experience in this kind of combat. They'll support her unless she literally starts trying to kill them like Krell did.

[NecronLord]

The way I'd always taken it with Krell is, as per his dialogue, he can see the outcome of the war to some degree, but he was likely able to do that because he had previously turned to the dark side and was no longer affected by the Shroud of the Dark Side dampening his vision. With that in mind he was likely already fully dark side.