Rise of Skywalker news.

[Ace Pace]

With the news about the writers essentially admitting there was no cohesive plan for the sequel movies, I hope those that defended LFL since TFA for everything is well thought out can admit they've aided LFL and Disney in making a mess of the sequel trilogy.

Link?

[ray245]

https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/mov ... ew-925410/
Spoiler

It’s no secret that this movie will tell us more about Rey’s past. One of the most interesting things that Rian Johnson did in The Last Jedi was make it clear that the Force belongs to everyone, even in the movie’s final scene with the kid using it to pick up his broom. So how do you add to her background without taking away from a message that was core to the previous film?

I agree, that’s a really interesting thing that Rian did. It’s a democratization of Star Wars, saying that your lineage and your blood doesn’t necessarily determine who you are, and your past doesn’t determine your future. But we took those provocations as ideas that we could grapple with and hopefully expand upon in this film, because I don’t think it’s a dialectic of one or the other, where either you come from nothing or you are born royalty. There’s a lot of ground in between. Even [Kylo] Ren’s terminology isn’t… When he says “You’re no one” — well, what does that mean? Is that how Rey would think about herself? Does Rey even think of these questions? I’m trying not to reveal any story points here! There’s a Gordian knot in my tongue. I think those are really valid ideas that Rian put forth, but any series of films, especially if you have three, is a conversation — which is, as I said early on when I was talking to J.J., thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. If Force Awakens asks the question of who is Rey and where did she come from, and then The Last Jedi answered it with a negative in a certain way, hopefully The Rise of Skywalker will take those two ideas and create a third thing.

[Gandalf]

If that's your definition of "no cohesive plan for the sequel movies," how do you feel about the OT?

[ray245]

If that's your definition of "no cohesive plan for the sequel movies," how do you feel about the OT?

The OT had no clear cohesive plan, but it did have a singular vision of George Lucas. There is no major mystery box underpinning the saga that was interpreted very differently by two different creative teams.

[Vympel]

The year is 2043. The Third Great Resource War has ended. Films are but a distant memory. On the radiocomputer wireless, someone, somewhere, is hurling invective against unnamed fans who apparently were super-insistent that the entire sequel trilogy had been extensively planned out.

Which we all know is the only proper way to make any sort of movie or TV series.

Anyway, if they're going to re-open the already resolved issue of Rey's parentage - then they've got to be extremely careful that whatever they end up doing doesn't end up as a complete invalidation of one of the emotional climaxes of the previous film, because it'll make absolutely no one happy. People who liked what TLJ did in that regard will loathe it, and people who didn't like what TLJ did with it are going to call bullshit on it. The only people who will be happy are the people who enjoy being miserable and want company.

Back in 2015, JJ Abrams said that he never conceived of the Force as having much to do with bloodlines and he said it again like earlier this week (in translated foreign press). So either he's just lying (Into Darkness, John Harris is not Khan, anyone?) or they're actually going to try and do something that isn't by-definition hacky.

*Yes, I've read the alleged leaks. At this stage, they sound bad. But then most leaks do.

[ray245]

The year is 2043. The Third Great Resource War has ended. Films are but a distant memory. On the radiocomputer wireless, someone, somewhere, is hurling invective against unnamed fans who apparently were super-insistent that the entire sequel trilogy had been extensively planned out.

Which we all know is the only proper way to make any sort of movie or TV series.

No one is saying a trilogy have to be extensively planned out, but having one singular creative vision will have made the whole experience a lot more enjoyable than what we are getting.

Anyway, if they're going to re-open the already resolved issue of Rey's parentage - then they've got to be extremely careful that whatever they end up doing doesn't end up as a complete invalidation of one of the emotional climaxes of the previous film, because it'll make absolutely no one happy. People who liked what TLJ did in that regard will loathe it, and people who didn't like what TLJ did with it are going to call bullshit on it. The only people who will be happy are the people who enjoy being miserable and want company.

Back in 2015, JJ Abrams said that he never conceived of the Force as having much to do with bloodlines and he said it again like earlier this week (in translated foreign press). So either he's just lying (Into Darkness, John Harris is not Khan, anyone?) or they're actually going to try and do something that isn't by-definition hacky.

*Yes, I've read the alleged leaks. At this stage, they sound bad. But then most leaks do.

JJ Abrams is known to lie about plot details to keep his mystery box, and as a professional director, he is not going to openly shaft his colleague in the industry so openly. So I think anyone who falls for his line about how Rian Johnson clearly have the same vision as he does about Rey is someone who gullible and far too eager to follow the official company line. Just because something is "official" does not mean it is true.

JJ Abrams' plots has always been a mess, hidden behind a facade of good pacing and editing in his movies. This is why his movies or franchise has a tendency to overstay their welcome in popular culture.


His editor has now openly said Rian Johnson abandoned the story of JJ Abrams. I think we can now put the idea that JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson being on the same page to a complete rest.

https://www.awardsdaily.com/2019/12/13/ ... interview/

AD: Rian Johnson was recently trending on Twitter, for comments made about The Last Jedi, that perhaps maybe J.J. Abrams and the cast weren’t happy with the film. Is there any truth to that?

MB: All I can say about that is that The Last Jedi, I really enjoyed, but I will say it did present a lot of challenges in terms of where Episode IX had to go to finish the saga. In other words, unfortunately Carrie died, but she didn’t obviously die in Episode VIII. She’s a character that had to be figured out, and that was a huge challenge. But I think J.J. and [screenwriter] Chris Terrio did an amazing job. Luke died, which was a problem. So we had those two opposing problems, so I think what you’re seeing trend is that the setup was difficult to deal with. I think Rian Johnson is an amazing filmmaker, and I just think that when you’re doing a trilogy, you can’t just abandon a story. So whatever he chose to put in that film, those things that are dangling have to be dealt with. And you have to deal with them honestly, so you thought the whole thing through. J.J. wasn’t supposed to do Episode IX, so that was a whole other thing, because he came on late and he and Chris had to write the script in a shorter amount of time.

Lucas changed his mind very frequently when he was making the OT, and he might not have a clear definite plan on everything he does. But the fact that he is still the architecture of all 3 stories means the OT had a level of cohesiveness far beyond that of the sequel movies. Things would have worked if Kennedy was the one that have a clear and cohesive vision for how is the story is going to go. But what we have seen of her in managing the Star Wars franchise is to leave nearly everything to the directors, and hit the panic button at the last minute when she realised she made a mistake with giving directors far too much control.

[Vympel]

His editor has now openly said Rian Johnson abandoned the story of JJ Abrams. I think we can now put the idea that JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson being on the same page to a complete rest.

That's not what she's saying? It's incoherent to say that he "abandoned the story of JJ Abrams" when its patently apparent that JJ Abrams didn't have a story, because he was never going to do Episode VIII and IX in the first place. She's just saying that in working on a trilogy, you need to ... finish the story. Statement of the obvious.

Abrams has given interviews where he (again, stating the obvious) Kennedy and Johnson sat down and talked about Johnson's plans for Episode VIII. If he had a problem with anything Johnson was doing, that would be the time to object. There's absolutely no evidence he did so.

[ray245]

That's not what she's saying? It's incoherent to say that he "abandoned the story of JJ Abrams" when its patently apparent that JJ Abrams didn't have a story, because he was never going to do Episode VIII and IX in the first place. She's just saying that in working on a trilogy, you need to ... finish the story. Statement of the obvious.

The previous sentence said Luke's death was a problem for them. I don't think JJ Abrams actually have a plan on how to end the story ( because he rarely does with his shows and movies), but I think he has some ideas on where he would like the story to go from what he wrote in EP 7.

It's a fairly diplomatic response to the question, by neither disagreeing nor agreeing with the question being asked. Usually when people are unwilling to give a clear answer, it tends to be an issue of people wanting to be diplomatic in voicing their disagreements out in public.

Abrams has given interviews where he (again, stating the obvious) Kennedy and Johnson sat down and talked about Johnson's plans for Episode VIII. If he had a problem with anything Johnson was doing, that would be the time to object. There's absolutely no evidence he did so.

If the rumours about Rey's parentage is true, then that will be quite clear he disagreed with what Johnson is doing. We'll find out in a few days time.

[Vympel]

The previous sentence said Luke's death was a problem for them. I don't think JJ Abrams actually have a plan on how to end the story ( because he rarely does with his shows and movies), but I think he has some ideas on where he would like the story to go from what he wrote in EP 7.

So what if it's a problem? Writing a story isn't meant to come easily. You'll always have issues that naturally arise from what came before and you have to deal with it. Much the same way that Abrams apparently was brought onto Episode VII with the question "Who is Luke Skywalker" and then made a movie where Luke Skywalker appeared in the last minute and had no lines.

[ray245]

So what if it's a problem? Writing a story isn't meant to come easily. You'll always have issues that naturally arise from what came before and you have to deal with it. Much the same way that Abrams apparently was brought onto Episode VII with the question "Who is Luke Skywalker" and then made a movie where Luke Skywalker appeared in the last minute and had no lines.

Because you will no have a strong cohesive theme across the different stories. A successful trilogy needs to have a strong sense of cohesiveness, irregardless of how it is made. You can certainly make changes along the way, but you still need a sense of proper build-up and a strong sense of direction on how the story is going to end.

For example, I highly doubt Kevin Feige when he produced Iron Man one will know how the Iron Man story will end in Avengers Endgame, but there was a consistent character arc that remained consistent in the hands of multiple directors. Certain plot elements were certainly dropped along the way, and not all Iron man movies were equally well-received, but the audience as a whole by and large felt happy with the story arc of Tony Stark. You get a strong sense of all the MCU movies that they are all ultimately the movies of Kevin Feige, who knows what he wants from the directors and what to do with the characters.

[Vympel]

Because you will no have a strong cohesive theme across the different stories. A successful trilogy needs to have a strong sense of cohesiveness, irregardless of how it is made. You can certainly make changes along the way, but you still need a sense of proper build-up and a strong sense of direction on how the story is going to end.

I don't think literally anyone would've thought that Vader was going to be redeemed in the third film, because that's something Lucas came up with very late in the game. On the contrary, Ben Solo's (extremely obvious, definitely going to happen) redemption arc was probably one of the only things in the new movies they definitively locked down from the start (Adam Driver has said so enough times), so maybe that's why it's the best part of the films for me? Anyway YMMV.

For example, I highly doubt Kevin Feige when he produced Iron Man one will know how the Iron Man story will end in Avengers Endgame, but there was a consistent character arc that remained consistent in the hands of multiple directors. Certain plot elements were certainly dropped along the way, and not all Iron man movies were equally well-received, but the audience as a whole by and large felt happy with the story arc of Tony Stark. You get a strong sense of all the MCU movies that they are all ultimately the movies of Kevin Feige, who knows what he wants from the directors and what to do with the characters.

This is somewhat off-topic, but there really wasn't. Tony Stark's character arc isn't consistent at all. Iron Man 3 climaxed in him destroying all his armor and then Avenger 2 came along and pretended absolutely none of that happened, and he's in every subsequent movie like none of that happened either. Heck, Avengers 2 is so bad at themes that it contradicts itself and Tony Stark learns nothing but to simply do what he did earlier in the film - with disastrous results - but again - and expect different results. And he's rewarded for this (i.e. the creation of Vision). The MCU films as a whole are an incoherent mess with no real message at all*, and I don't think "the audience as a whole" thinks much about these things. It's impossible to mount a coherent defence of 'the story arc of Tony Stark'. There is no arc.

*Civil War: a global assassination/surveillance apparatus is bad!
*Far From Home: Tony Stark made a global assassination/surveillance appartus and entrusted it to a literal child because our plot requires this to exist.

[ray245]

I don't think literally anyone would've thought that Vader was going to be redeemed in the third film, because that's something Lucas came up with very late in the game. On the contrary, Ben Solo's (extremely obvious, definitely going to happen) redemption arc was probably one of the only things in the new movies they definitively locked down from the start (Adam Driver has said so enough times), so maybe that's why it's the best part of the films for me? Anyway YMMV.

Vader's redemption is not the main crux of the OT. The main crux of the OT was whether Luke will be able to confront the dark side and become a Jedi.

This is somewhat off-topic, but there really wasn't. Tony Stark's character arc isn't consistent at all. Iron Man 3 climaxed in him destroying all his armor and then Avenger 2 came along and pretended absolutely none of that happened, and he's in every subsequent movie like none of that happened either. Heck, Avengers 2 is so bad at themes that it contradicts itself and Tony Stark learns nothing but to simply do what he did earlier in the film - with disastrous results - but again - and expect different results. And he's rewarded for this (i.e. the creation of Vision). The MCU films as a whole are an incoherent mess with no real message at all*, and I don't think "the audience as a whole" thinks much about these things. It's impossible to mount a coherent defence of 'the story arc of Tony Stark'. There is no arc.

*Civil War: a global assassination/surveillance apparatus is bad!
*Far From Home: Tony Stark made a global assassination/surveillance appartus and entrusted it to a literal child because our plot requires this to exist.

Tony back-tracking on what he is forced to do by others is a remarkably consistent thing throughout the movies. Pepper wants him to retire from being a hero, but it's something he is never able to do throughout the movie, except for the five years gap between Infinity War and Endgame.

He was forced to take down his Ultron program, but in Endgame, he was pissed with Cap for making a mistake.

His main character arc has always been about him evolving from a self-centred person to being willing to give up his life to save everyone else.

[Vympel]

Vader's redemption is not the main crux of the OT. The main crux of the OT was whether Luke will be able to confront the dark side and become a Jedi.

Vader's redemption is what proves that Luke has become a Jedi. It's the climax for both characters, and its entirely confected. In any event, is TROS is a confused trash fire of an ending for the ST (and its quite possible it will be based on premiere reactions I've read online) it won't be because there wasn't a coherent 'vision' for three films. If someone doesn't have the skill to pull off a competent ending based on what's in TFA or TLJ already, I see no reason to assume that they'd somehow be better if they got to make all three films. It'd just be bad in a different way.

Tony back-tracking on what he is forced to do by others is a remarkably consistent thing throughout the movies. Pepper wants him to retire from being a hero, but it's something he is never able to do throughout the movie, except for the five years gap between Infinity War and Endgame

He was forced to take down his Ultron program, but in Endgame, he was pissed with Cap for making a mistake.

His main character arc has always been about him evolving from a self-centred person to being willing to give up his life to save everyone else.

If a character is constantly back-tracking, then they're not growing. They're just spinning in place. Iron Man 1 - 3 work for progressing the character, but everything that follows is just wheel-spinning. They couldn't actually commit to Iron Man 3's ending in any sincere way.

[loomer]

I saw it. It was okay, I guess.

[ray245]

Vader's redemption is what proves that Luke has become a Jedi. It's the climax for both characters, and its entirely confected. In any event, is TROS is a confused trash fire of an ending for the ST (and its quite possible it will be based on premiere reactions I've read online) it won't be because there wasn't a coherent 'vision' for three films. If someone doesn't have the skill to pull off a competent ending based on what's in TFA or TLJ already, I see no reason to assume that they'd somehow be better if they got to make all three films. It'd just be bad in a different way.

No, Luke proved himself that he was a Jedi when he manage to rein in his hatred and anger. Vader's redemption arc is a secondary arc to that complements the primary arc.

The reason why ROS is the way it is was because JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson are very different directors in their vision for Star Wars. If someone had a coherent plan, the producer would know putting Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams together on the same trilogy is a bad idea, because they will not work well together.

TLJ was basically Rian Johnson saying "fuck you" to JJ Abrams' mystery box and world-building set-up. ROS looks like it's JJ Abrams saying "fuck you" to Rian Johnson for trying to throwing out his mystery box and killing his big bad.

If a character is constantly back-tracking, then they're not growing. They're just spinning in place. Iron Man 1 - 3 work for progressing the character, but everything that follows is just wheel-spinning. They couldn't actually commit to Iron Man 3's ending in any sincere way.

Characters can back-track in some ways, but grow in other ways. Tony's arc was never about stopping himself from building suits. Iron Man 3 isn't about Tony coming to terms with the idea that he should stop building more suits, it's that he doesn't need to build suits in order to be Tony Stark. Being Iron Man is no longer a need, but a choice.

[Ace Pace]

I saw it. It was okay, I guess.

Lets move this to a new thread