Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

[Eternal_Freedom]

I hate to be picky, but wasn't that round three? We had Lucrehulk/ISD and then Assault Frigate/Munificent.

[Abacus]

ROUND FOUR


TIE/Ln Starfighter

Specifications

V.S.

V-19 Torrent Starfighter

Specifications[/quote][/quote]

[Crazedwraith]

Torrent has missiles which X-wing books/games lead me to believe would be a massive advantage

I think this one is much more affected by crew skill than other match ups.

[hunter5]

Doesn't the TIE/Ln also have a launcher? Yeah these seem pretty comparable weapons wise. I guess it would come down to which is more maneuverable and if the torrent has shields or not.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

TIE/ln only has twin laser cannon. The Legends TIE/gt(ground-assault variant)did have a launcher in place of one of the laser cannon. The Defender also has launchers as well as laser cannon, but it also is Legends now, instead of canon, unless someone has brought/wants to bring it back.

[Crazedwraith]

Defender's been brought back. Some mobile game or another.

[hunter5]

TIE/ln only has twin laser cannon. The Legends TIE/gt(ground-assault variant)did have a launcher in place of one of the laser cannon. The Defender also has launchers as well as laser cannon, but it also is Legends now, instead of canon, unless someone has brought/wants to bring it back.

looking at the cannon wookiepeida article on the TIE/Ln some models seem to have a torpedo launcher so I think in one of the new books or games they might have a torpedo. And yeah as Wraith said the Tie defender is part of the Star wars commander mobile game.

[NecronLord]

Crew skill again.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

TIE/ln only has twin laser cannon. The Legends TIE/gt(ground-assault variant)did have a launcher in place of one of the laser cannon. The Defender also has launchers as well as laser cannon, but it also is Legends now, instead of canon, unless someone has brought/wants to bring it back.

looking at the cannon wookiepeida article on the TIE/Ln some models seem to have a torpedo launcher so I think in one of the new books or games they might have a torpedo. And yeah as Wraith said the Tie defender is part of the Star wars commander mobile game.

That's why I haven't heard; I'm not into mobile games. Okay, so Defender counts.

[NecronLord]

I actually have a post in progress listing the canonical vehicles of the Empire; here's a preview.

Fighters:
TIE LN
TIE Advanced X1 (Vader's)
TIE Advanced (Inquisitors')
TIE Bomber
TIE Shuttle
TIE Interceptor
TIE Defender (Commander)

[Simon_Jester]

The standards of this site have gone up, in that we're not, or at least I'm not, keen to disingenuously talk about the optimal way for a starship to fight, and then claim that star wars ships do that - remember when it was common to claim that Star Wars battles happen at light-second ranges and that the films just happen to show the exceptions?

Just to think about this-

The technology certainly exists to do so; they have beam weapons and the weapons don't just stop dead in their tracks at any particular point in space. And we do have reason to think that the two major fleet battles we saw (Endor and Coruscant) were aberrations favoring unusually close range engagement. But the evidence does not support the conclusion that Star Wars ships can reliably engage each other from light-second ranges in the face of their own setting's electronic warfare and evasive maneuver capability.

[NecronLord]

Just to think about this-

The technology certainly exists to do so; they have beam weapons

Not really, for the most part they have blaster-bolt/turbo'laser' weapons; the ICS that made the glowing bit a tracer is now no longer canonical. There's limited evidence at best that they're any faster than they seem.

Reliance on blast-bolts vs conventional real-world lasers may well be a factor that pushes engagement ranges down.

This is somewhat off topic as this is a legends thread so far, mind you, and legends has more long ranged battles, but we need to reexamine our perceptions of star wars combat range as a board.

and the weapons don't just stop dead in their tracks at any particular point in space. And we do have reason to think that the two major fleet battles we saw (Endor and Coruscant) were aberrations favoring unusually close range engagement.

We've seen dozens upon dozens of fleet battles at similar ranges. Clone Wars is canon remember. There's even a little one in Rebels.

But the evidence does not support the conclusion that Star Wars ships can reliably engage each other from light-second ranges in the face of their own setting's electronic warfare and evasive maneuver capability.

Not disputed, of course, but between hyperdrive and other possibly unknown factors, preferred engagement range is hundreds of kilometers or less.

[Adam Reynolds]

The V-19 has the advantage of missiles and shields, though that comes at the cost of a loss in relative performance. Unlike Rebel fighters, it lacks a hyperdrive, which should give a slight performance boost in a dogfight. Though there is also the problem that the V-19 was retired by the end of the Clone Wars, as we see none in ROTS with the V-wing and ARC-170 taking the role instead. This likely indicates that it was a rush design employed before the end of the Clone Wars, which TIEs were obviously not.

If missiles are effective, which we don't really see in current canon, then it comes down to whether the TIE can flank the V-19 before it gets a target lock. Without missiles, it probably goes to the more agile and overall superior TIE.

Though in a duel of starfighters, pilot skill is likely more important, as we notably see at Endor, in which less agile Rebel fighters gain and maintain air superiority throughout the engagement. The Republic has extensive experience facing more agile and numerous droid starfighters and the GAR shows vastly more competence than the Empire at almost every point. Which would likely give the V-19 a bit of an edge over the Empire.


On the issue of engagement range, a major issue is acceleration levels of SW ships. Because they can accelerate as fast as they can, they would be extremely hard to hit at a distance. Thus necessitating relatively short ranges. Though Coruscant and Endor are likely still outliers, in that we don't see quite as short ranged engagements in other battles as we do in those. But they aren't the extreme outliers once described.

There is also this with the strategic maneuverability of hyperdrive, which allows forces to quickly engage or disengage. This necessitates short ranged engagements to prevent the enemy from doing so(as at both Endor and Coruscant), which could lead to the range shrinking further as evasion tactics become more sophisticated. Coruscant was a case in which the range was as short as it was based on the fact that the CIS could not possible be allowed to escape, given that they had the Chancellor in tow.

[The Romulan Republic]

One has shields and missiles, the other does not.

Yes, the Tie is a more recent model, but tech. in Star Wars doesn't appear to change all that much between the Clone Wars and the Rebellion.

I'm not convinced that the Tie's supposed greater agility will allow it to overcome superior firepower and durability.

I give this one to the V-19.

[NecronLord]

The advantage offered by the shields often seems to be quite marginal however. I would say though, that a clone pilot is likely superior to the bozo-boys that fly TIEs, at least if Rebels is to be believed.

[Patroklos]

Mhm, feel like doing one of those for the Raider? I'm not even convinced its guns can elevate in that they pop out of the hull and have a large armoured plate on them.

Link.

I rather like the Raider, but I'm not sure it's actually got good firing arcs at all.

I assume you are talking about the armor plating on the top of the Raider's mounts? I don't think it would prevent them from firing in any of the ventral arcs. What it would do is keep it from being able to "elevate" 160 front to rear without transversing the turret as it appears the CR90 is capable of doing (I would say it appears the Raider can only elevate 110 odd degrees). I say 160 because the CR90s mount blocks it from having the same depression faced aft as it does facing forward. It has 180 degrees of arc, 160 elevation and 20 depression. The Raider's arc is not limited by the turret, but the hull form limits it to 180 degrees (less aft where the weird TIEesque wings and command tower cutouts are, especially for the two aft turrets).

What I take from this is that the Raider's turrets are better protected, but if we assume comparable turning mechanisms for the turrets the CR90 is superior in target tracking to some degree. Its probably more relevant against fast or maneuverable fighter type craft, but it is a plus for the CR90.

The real problem with SW wedge ships is not the hull form. Its is superior for most purposes. The problem is that throughout SW they are ridiculously stupid regarding turret placement on those hulls. To truly get the maximum firing arcs while preserving the forward alpha arc their weapons should be placed on the edges, with the rear most four corners being the best spot for weapons (instead of command towers). At least the Raider doesn't suffer from the stupidity of lacking superfiring mounts as they are spaced far enough apart that the angle of the hull provides for it, unlike the ISDI.

The advantage offered by the shields often seems to be quite marginal however. I would say though, that a clone pilot is likely superior to the bozo-boys that fly TIEs, at least if Rebels is to be believed.

Would not a good number of clone pilots still be around in the Rebel's timeframe? It should also be pointed out that a good number of those ace Rebel polits are the product of Imperial military academies. Unless we want to postulate that the Empire somehow divested from fighter pilot training between the Clone Wars and Rebels, they should in theory have inherited all of the expertise and institutional inertia of the Clone Wars fighter force.

[NecronLord]

The real problem with SW wedge ships is not the hull form. Its is superior for most purposes. The problem is that throughout SW they are ridiculously stupid regarding turret placement on those hulls.

Agreed. I much prefer (no surprise) Fractal's Vigil-class Corvette, which FFG actually used in some of their stuff but which wouldn't have been balanced vs the CR90 being a wholly better ship. Lorewise the Raider's supposed to be a cheaper and lighter version of the Vigil I believe.

To truly get the maximum firing arcs while preserving the forward alpha arc their weapons should be placed on the edges, with the rear most four corners being the best spot for weapons (instead of command towers). At least the Raider doesn't suffer from the stupidity of lacking superfiring mounts as they are spaced far enough apart that the angle of the hull provides for it, unlike the ISDI.

Don't forget Venator guns there.

[Patroklos]

Some of the Venators guns are placed on the edges, but unfortunately a lot of those that are also burred in the trench very much restricting their arc them. IF you really wanted to do it right they should be able to fire along both the dorsal and ventral surfaces of the ship from that position.

Perhaps there are protection concerns that prevent them having turrets stick out too far.

On the issue of engagement range, a major issue is acceleration levels of SW ships. Because they can accelerate as fast as they can, they would be extremely hard to hit at a distance. Thus necessitating relatively short ranges. Though Coruscant and Endor are likely still outliers, in that we don't see quite as short ranged engagements in other battles as we do in those. But they aren't the extreme outliers once described.

This is a problem in real life with warships and small moving speed boats currently in fashion for nations like Iran.

This is a case where more less powerful weapons mounts versus less more powerful mounts can help. You identify the target, and based on what you know about its engine performance and maneuverability you fire a spread aimed not only at where the target would be based on your last information, but all the places you think its likely it could be based on your analysis of its possible movements (this obviously works better with area effect weapons). You might have to fire 20 shots at once or in short succession to get one hit, but if that allows you to keep yourself out of their range or they don't have the mounts to perform the same tactic on you its still a win.

[RogueIce]

The advantage offered by the shields often seems to be quite marginal however. I would say though, that a clone pilot is likely superior to the bozo-boys that fly TIEs, at least if Rebels is to be believed.

OTOH, the Imperial pilots did a number on the Yavin fighters, though we can't account for all 27 lost in the current footage, so no idea how many were downed by TIEs as opposed to the towers. Given dialogue that they were evading the turbolasers, though, I'd say the balance were lost due to Vader's fighters.

Of course, there are variable skill levels at work. Even in Rebels we see some stormtroopers operate at a level above the Keystone Kops norm they like to give us. The Battlefront novel also describes plenty of competent Imperial troops. Back to TIEs, even the Rebels Imperial pilots were good for an A-wing or two in the latter half of season 2. And even the clones, troopers and pilots alike, were capable of going down like chumps when the script called for it - albeit thanks to their status as Good Guys™ their defeats were never treated as comedy like the stormtroopers in Rebels.

[NecronLord]

Some of the Venators guns are placed on the edges, but unfortunately a lot of those that are also burred in the trench very much restricting their arc them. IF you really wanted to do it right they should be able to fire along both the dorsal and ventral surfaces of the ship from that position.

Perhaps there are protection concerns that prevent them having turrets stick out too far.

I like Curtis' explanation, that proximity to the vessel's spine limits the overall travel from the power tree, thus the mass of weapons systems, and also the amount of heat lost into the ship. Therefore keeping heavy guns on the center-line is beneficial.

[NecronLord]

The advantage offered by the shields often seems to be quite marginal however. I would say though, that a clone pilot is likely superior to the bozo-boys that fly TIEs, at least if Rebels is to be believed.

Would not a good number of clone pilots still be around in the Rebel's timeframe? It should also be pointed out that a good number of those ace Rebel polits are the product of Imperial military academies. Unless we want to postulate that the Empire somehow divested from fighter pilot training between the Clone Wars and Rebels, they should in theory have inherited all of the expertise and institutional inertia of the Clone Wars fighter force.

Oh. Missed this. Rebels makes a point that the academies have changed. The Lothal Academy for instance refuses to train stormtrooper cadets to support one another, instead training them to compete for kills. In comparison with the clone academy episodes of The Clone Wars this is obviously grossly inferior.

Compare:



While not obviously a comprehensive overview of each system, the notion from this seems to be that sith philosophy has seeped into and completely poisoned imperial academies and for this reason along with inferior equipment, stormtroopers are inferior soldiers. Stormtrooper training is designed to break down bonds between soldiers and prevent them functioning as a unit (!)


2m 40s - "Some fans don't agree with me about this, but the clone trooper is at a base level, a significantly better trooper than a stormtrooper."

There are more scenes of clone training but they're broadly similar.

I don't have specifics of the pilot training, but given how inferior the stormtrooper training has become, I wouldn't imagine that Imperial pilot academies are nearly as good as clone ones.

[biostem]

I wonder if it is the nature of Sith to be paranoid about people usurping their power, thus driving such followers to take ridiculous steps to try and prevent it - to the point of hampering the effectiveness of their own soldiers.

[Simon_Jester]

Just to think about this-

The technology certainly exists to do so; they have beam weapons

Not really, for the most part they have blaster-bolt/turbo'laser' weapons; the ICS that made the glowing bit a tracer is now no longer canonical. There's limited evidence at best that they're any faster than they seem.

Reliance on blast-bolts vs conventional real-world lasers may well be a factor that pushes engagement ranges down.

If turbolaser bolts move as slowly as they seem (single digit kilometers per second is not uncommon), it shouldn't even be possible to fight with them at all given Star Wars accelerations (still in the thousands of g), even at point blank range. It would be too easy to firewall the engines and zip out of accurate gun range, then throttle back as soon as the enemy matches course, and so on. Or to cross an enemy's engagement envelope faster than they can track and fire effectively.

The only way ships could ever fight each other would be by grappling with tractors and forcing the enemy into a close range encounter that they couldn't escape.

On the issue of engagement range, a major issue is acceleration levels of SW ships. Because they can accelerate as fast as they can, they would be extremely hard to hit at a distance. Thus necessitating relatively short ranges...

Thing is, they would also be extremely hard to hit with any weapon that has a time of flight less than, oh, a few tenths of a second, because their acceleration is so great that if you give the pilot time to change the throttle setting or turn, they could be hundreds of meters away from where you think they are in a matter of a split second.

I don't actually object to short engagement ranges, but Star Wars combat isn't even possible if the weapon muzzle velocities aren't fast enough to allow the shots to hit their targets on a semi-regular basis.

[Galvatron]

I wonder if it is the nature of Sith to be paranoid about people usurping their power, thus driving such followers to take ridiculous steps to try and prevent it - to the point of hampering the effectiveness of their own soldiers.

Stormtroopers may serve a different agenda than the clones did. The Emperor needed highly competent killers that would betray and murder their Jedi commanders. Switching to non-clone stormtroopers would give him less competent soldiers, but it might also foster greater loyalty to the Empire with with the galactic masses via some ongoing "support your troops" propaganda campaign. It would also help the Empire demonize the rebels as terrorists.

[Patroklos]

Oh. Missed this. Rebels makes a point that the academies have changed. The Lothal Academy for instance refuses to train stormtrooper cadets to support one another, instead training them to compete for kills. In comparison with the clone academy episodes of The Clone Wars this is obviously grossly inferior.

Compare:

While not obviously a comprehensive overview of each system, the notion from this seems to be that sith philosophy has seeped into and completely poisoned imperial academies and for this reason along with inferior equipment, stormtroopers are inferior soldiers. Stormtrooper training is designed to break down bonds between soldiers and prevent them functioning as a unit (!)

2m 40s - "Some fans don't agree with me about this, but the clone trooper is at a base level, a significantly better trooper than a stormtrooper."

There are more scenes of clone training but they're broadly similar.

I don't have specifics of the pilot training, but given how inferior the stormtrooper training has become, I wouldn't imagine that Imperial pilot academies are nearly as good as clone ones.

Well given that it does look like things have slipped, however...

...how much more of this mind numbing bullshit are we going to have to eat from these fucking cartoons.

Out of Universe - Every since the damn prequels writers have been falling over themselves to make their antagonists as incompetent and underwhelming as possible. For some unfathomable reason they don't seem to understand that the heroic nature of your protagonist is directly related to the significance of the obstacle we see (this is important in a TV show/movie, SEE) them overcome.

So now we have an enemy who has shitty equipment. Their soldiers are incompetent, their pilots can be assumed to be the same, their inquisitors are pushovers. Why the fuck am I supposed to care about what the protagonists do again? Nothing they do relative to these people is impressive in the slightest. At some point SW creators stumbled into the assumption that Evil = incompetent.

So we have a show about mediocre people besting underwhelming simpletons. WHAT ENTERTAINMENT!

In Universe - This makes no sense. The Sith code is for Sith, to be used by Sith, to become the best Sith. It isn't some universal moral code to be applied to everyone and the last people who would want this is the Sith themselves. The Sith are about gaining power and then keeping it as long as possible against their own number. They don't want the whole damn galaxy torn apart, then whats the point of taking over? This is dictatorship 101, peace and stability at home for at the very least amongst your select power base is the foundation of a regimes success.

In Game of Thrones we have antagonists every bit as evil and ruthless as Palpantine. Roose Bolten, despite himself being a rapist mas murdering cunt, doesn't pretend that its in his best interest that EVERYONE, especially his subjects, be raping mass murdering cunt along with him. Those rules are for him and his alone, where he can enforce it to be so, for his own purposes. His motto for everyone else? "A peaceful land, a quiet people."

Was it not enough to have the fractious empire be vulnerable through overly ambitious and scheming courtesans and generals being at each others throats. Now EVERYONE has to be that way? Right down to private Shmuckatelli? Fuck!

I wonder if it is the nature of Sith to be paranoid about people usurping their power, thus driving such followers to take ridiculous steps to try and prevent it - to the point of hampering the effectiveness of their own soldiers.

Stormtroopers may serve a different agenda than the clones did. The Emperor needed highly competent killers that would betray and murder their Jedi commanders. Switching to non-clone stormtroopers would give him less competent soldiers, but it might also foster greater loyalty to the Empire with with the galactic masses via some ongoing "support your troops" propaganda campaign. It would also help the Empire demonize the rebels as terrorists.

This is just the same BS that dumbass producer said about clones being better because they are "born" for it. This is just racist pesudo science dressed up to look like something other than measuring cranium cavities. I guess that's why the Spartans won every time!