Poe Dameron vs Darth Vader

[Eternal_Freedom]

If they came at it from above they would be exposed to a far greater number of surface guns and even if they are sluggish sheer chance dictates they'll get more hits. And the surface guns did score some kills so they aren't that sluggish.

[NecronLord]

And since proton torpedos are unguided I don't know why you would use one in a dogfight. In ANH they didn't want to use ptorpedos because the exhaust port was ray shielded- presumably to block some more effective means of attack.

You what?

The torpedoes in AoTC (Slave One) and RotS (Vulture Droids) are guided.

What makes you think the others aren't?

I'm going to bypass talking about the torpedos myself and demand you prove your assertion that unlike the others we've seen, they're not guided.

[Batman]

Heck, as I already mentioned, they were clearly guided in ANH.

[Purple]

Heck, as I already mentioned, they were clearly guided in ANH.

Evidence would seem to indicate otherwise. See my last post in this thread for an explanation.

[Batman]

Evidence indicates nothing conclusive, actually. Not that they'd have been unguided even if it was a preprogrammed manouvre. It's known as 'preset guidance'. I think you're confusing 'guided' with 'homing', or possibly 'remotely guided'.

[Purple]

Evidence indicates nothing conclusive, actually. Not that they'd have been unguided even if it was a preprogrammed manouvre. It's known as 'preset guidance'. I think you're confusing 'guided' with 'homing', or possibly 'remotely guided'.

Instead of arguing over the semantics of a word you might want to partake in the actual argument at hand. What we are arguing here is if a torpedo as fired by an X-wing can or can not target, track and hit an evasive moving star fighter that does not want to be hit. And the only evidence we have of torpedoes used at all has them performing a pre set maneuver to hit a for all intents and purposes stationary target.

So unless you can prove that one translates into the other you are just pushing pointless semantics.

[Batman]

Your evidence for that having been a preset maneuver would be? You know, actual evidence instead of the 'I think' which is so far all you've provided.
Besides, as NecronLord mentioned, we've seen guided/huming torpedoes in the Clone Wars era, so they somehow lost this ability by the time of ANH...why exactly?

[Purple]

Your evidence for that having been a preset maneuver would be? You know, actual evidence instead of the 'I think' which is so far all you've provided.

The proton torpedoes used in ANH exhibit absolutely no indication of dynamic self corrective in flight guidance of any kind. Otherwise the whole trench run would have been supremely redundant as they could just have programed the exhaust port into the missile as a target and released it from anywhere in range as opposed to painstakingly aiming it as they did. That is how "smart" munitions work. Instead what the movie demonstrates is the rebels using a targeting computer which for all intents and purposes is a glorified bombing sight designed to tell them the exact moment when to release the glorified bomb. The fact that Luke was able to perform the attack without the use of said computer underlines this.

If you can demonstrate the opposite do so. It's quite easy. Just give me one in cannon example of proton torpedoes compatible with the X-wing showing the capability to track and follow an evasive target. But you won't be able to.

Besides, as NecronLord mentioned, we've seen guided/huming torpedoes in the Clone Wars era, so they somehow lost this ability by the time of ANH...why exactly?

How about the fact that they are different starcraft decades apart firing those? If we extend that logic than why can't american jets fire Soviet missiles or Tie fighters fire X-wing torpedoes? Turns out that just because something exists in the setting it does not mean everything is compatible and used with everything else.

So either demonstrate for a fact that the two are compatible or give in.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Parsimony would dictate that barring evidence to the contrary, a torpedo that is seen maneuvering has a guidance system capable of hitting evasive targets, because we see obviously guided anti-ship torpedoes used in other engagements, namely Clone Wars and the Prequels. There are so very few reasons you would ever design a ship to ship torpedo that was unguided or that used preset guidance in a universe with the kinds of acceleration seen in star wars.

Unless you just want to waste ordinance.

That is not to say that an optimal course could not BE programmed in unusual circumstances(such as having to turn 90 degrees into a 2 meter exhaust port and then travel a hundred + km down a straight shaft into the reactor core you are actually targeting, thus necessitating the targeting computer system seen in ANH). But they did not, and it would be madness to suggest they did, design a torpedo guidance system specifically for the Death Star Run, or that they could rely on such a system for use against capital ships.

How about the fact that they are different starcraft decades apart firing those? If we extend that logic than why can't american jets fire Soviet missiles or Tie fighters fire X-wing torpedoes? Turns out that just because something exists in the setting it does not mean everything is compatible and used with everything else.

Why the fuck would they downgrade ALL their torpedoes over the course of 20 years? And, if they are unguided, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU USE THEM AGAINST VADER!? Makes. No. Sense.

....

As for Vader v Poe

Vader takes it. From everything we have ever seen, individual TIEs tend to be inferior to individual X-wings. A really good pilot in a superior ship vs probably greenish pilots in inferior ships. No contest.

Vaders ship in the other hand is probably comparable to rebel A wings, and these were not shit pilots. They themselves were able to wipe the floor with standard TIEs.

As for Hera Syndulla, she is really really good, but she did not win. She survived. Big difference. She also had a tail gun, which helps massively when being chased. Even if you dont hit anything, you force the pilot chasing you to evade your own defensive fire, which fucks up their own targeting.

[Batman]

Your evidence for that having been a preset maneuver would be? You know, actual evidence instead of the 'I think' which is so far all you've provided.

The proton torpedoes used in ANH exhibit absolutely no indication of dynamic self corrective in flight guidance of any kind. Otherwise the whole trench run would have been supremely redundant as they could just have programed the exhaust port into the missile as a target and released it from anywhere in range as opposed to painstakingly aiming it as they did. That is how "smart" munitions work.

Yup. Because there's absolutely no mention of jamming in the novel. Oh wait.

Instead what the movie demonstrates is the rebels using a targeting computer which for all intents and purposes is a glorified bombing sight designed to tell them the exact moment when to release the glorified bomb. The fact that Luke was able to perform the attack without the use of said computer underlines this.

All that underlines is the fact that somehow the Force allowed Luke to successfully do it. That it was by properly timing the shot is still yours to show.
[qote]
If you can demonstrate the opposite do so. It's quite easy.[/quote]
I'm not the one making the positive claim, you are. Prove that it was a preprogrammed maneuvre.

Besides, as NecronLord mentioned, we've seen guided/huming torpedoes in the Clone Wars era, so they somehow lost this ability by the time of ANH...why exactly?

How about the fact that they are different starcraft decades apart firing those? If we extend that logic than why can't american jets fire Soviet missiles or Tie fighters fire X-wing torpedoes? Turns out that just because something exists in the setting it does not mean everything is compatible and used with everything else.
So either demonstrate for a fact that the two are compatible or give in.

So basically...you think just because the real world had homing missiles since the Vietnam era at the very latest doesn't mean we get to assume the 21st century has them too. Gotcha.

[Batman]

As for Hera Syndulla, she is really really good, but she did not win. She survived. Big difference. She also had a tail gun, which helps massively when being chased. Even if you don't hit anything, you force the pilot chasing you to evade your own defensive fire, which fucks up their own targeting.

Though it should be noted by the time she managed to maneuver Vader into being tractored by his own forces, the turrets were offline because she ordered all power redirected to the hyperdrive.

[Simon_Jester]

I mean, that's pretty obvious even if being more serious. Disney Flyboy is not a Force user, and those who can't use the Force in SW are, uh, the redshirts of space fighter combat. Ignore the old EU or acknowledge it, but that's the truth.

There are a few honorable exceptions to this (Wedge Antilles, I mentioned earlier), but yes, in general this is true.

Proton torpedoes being unguided is stated-where, exactly? In fact, they can't be because otherwise the Death Star attack would have been impossible. That pesky 90 degree turn they had to do to get into the exhaust shaft.

That and they were expressly told they would have to use proton torpedoes because the port was ray shielded. I think you need to go watch the damn films again.

It may well be that due to the shielding, a torpedo with active homing couldn't steer into the exhaust port because it couldn't see the exhaust port through the aforesaid shielding...

[Batman]

That's definitely something I never thought of. Given that Wars shields (particle or ray) don't seem to do bupkis to visible light I never imagined them interfering with sensors.

[Simon_Jester]

The thing is, naturally all the scenes we see on the Death Star are illuminated like a movie set and we can see everything happen... but what would the lighting environment really look like if it wasn't all plastic models on brightly lit stages? There's no reason to expect the local star to be illuminating that part of the trench. You could easily be targeting something in deep, shadowy darkness, the kind you get in shade on the moon where there's no air to diffuse light, lit only by the flashes of the turbolaser bolts whirring overhead.

So even if shields 'really' don't interfere with visible light (which is rather dangerous if weapons-grade lasers are a thing), realistically a passive, visual-light camera wouldn't necessarily be a reliable way of spotting the exhaust port reliably.

In addition, we know that jamming is a major problem for Star Wars sensors- to the point where the Imperials at Endor were able to 'jam' Rebel sensors so well that the Rebels almost flew smack into a force field and exploded because they couldn't see it.

So I find it very plausible that the proton torpedoes in question could not reliably be expected to spot and home in on the exhaust port. It would be very unlike their usual opponents and targets, and there is no reason to assume a homing computer designed to target Imperial corvettes would be effective at spotting and flying into a two=meter hole.

[The Romulan Republic]

Poe is a fantastic pilot- I'd say he could take Vader. I don't think I've ever seen even Vader shoot down fighters at a rate of about one a second like Poe did over Maz's castle.

Yes, Vader has the Force, but that doesn't make him unbeatable to anyone who doesn't. Its an advantage, of course, but its not the be all and end all.

Leaving the old EU out of it, Hera Syndulla in Star Wars Rebels outflew him in a freaking freighter in the episode "Siege of Lothal", outmaneuvering him and tricking him into getting stuck in his own side's tractor beam. And that was an episode that showed Vader at his best (he shot down most of an A wing squadron and disabled a small warship solo shortly before that).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzqT8N3a-pU

If you watch the clip at forty seconds in Vader clearly says, that he wants the crew of the Ghost alive. The Rebels escape not because of a failure on Vader's part, but because the Imperials aboard the ISDs screwed up.

The fact that the ISDs were not firing does not mean Hera failed to outfly Vader. Though it is possible Lord Vader was "pulling his punches" somewhat.

As for Hera Syndulla, she is really really good, but she did not win. She survived. Big difference. She also had a tail gun, which helps massively when being chased. Even if you don't hit anything, you force the pilot chasing you to evade your own defensive fire, which fucks up their own targeting.

Though it should be noted by the time she managed to maneuver Vader into being tractored by his own forces, the turrets were offline because she ordered all power redirected to the hyperdrive.

Indeed.

Also, she not only survived, but managed to maneuver Vader into getting stuck in his own tractor beam Not as good as shooting him down, but she did manage to basically play him.

You could put it down to incompetence on the part of the tractor operator, but his superior explicitly says that's not the case (before taunting that Vader won't know that, the dick).

So what we're left with is that Hera is just that good.

[Purple]

Parsimony would dictate that barring evidence to the contrary, a torpedo that is seen maneuvering has a guidance system capable of hitting evasive targets, because we see obviously guided anti-ship torpedoes used in other engagements, namely Clone Wars and the Prequels.

No it would not. We should stick exclusively and solely on what we see on screen and not add additional hypothesis based on other weapons from the universe that we have no evidence for being used here.

There are so very few reasons you would ever design a ship to ship torpedo that was unguided or that used preset guidance in a universe with the kinds of acceleration seen in star wars.

I can think of a few. Starting from the seemingly high prevalence of jamming (ROTS) in this new era where as I do not remember it ever being mentioned during the clone wars, down to industrial capacity and cost reasons.

Why the fuck would they downgrade ALL their torpedoes over the course of 20 years?

Because the rebellion is in fact not a galaxy wide nation state with a large industrial capacity but a guerrilla movement and as such might not have the capability to mass produce smart munitions?

And, if they are unguided, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU USE THEM AGAINST VADER!? Makes. No. Sense.

You wouldn't. Which is the point. Until we see evidence in the new cannon of torpedoes behaving like air to air missiles as opposed to torpedoes we can not assume they will be effective or used in a dogfight.

Yup. Because there's absolutely no mention of jamming in the novel. Oh wait.

Are you reading your own text? You just gave proof positive to the fact that the torpedoes were not "smart". If they were than jamming would make them fail.

All that underlines is the fact that somehow the Force allowed Luke to successfully do it. That it was by properly timing the shot is still yours to show.

You just did that in your own text not 2 seconds ago. In particular you have proven through your mention of jamming that no "smartness" on part of the missile was involved. And we know from the movie that the launch maneuver had to have been one that can at least theoretically be achieved without force powers. So that rules out any magical force push theories. So what else is left?

I'm not the one making the positive claim, you are. Prove that it was a preprogrammed maneuvre.

What? You are the one making the claim that the torpedoes have more inherent "smartness" than shown in the movie.

My explanation is based on a bare bones absolute minimum assumption approach to analyzing the scene. Yours is based on dubious links to other in universe weaponry.

So basically...you think just because the real world had homing missiles since the Vietnam era at the very latest doesn't mean we get to assume the 21st century has them too. Gotcha.

No, I assume that you can not automatically assume compatibility between weapons developed decades apart. A modern fighter jet can not effectively use a missile developed in the 1960's. The hardware and software just isn't there.

Now you can of course give the whole thing extensive updates either to the missile or the fighter jet. That is how real militaries do it. But would a guerrilla movement using fighter craft of questionable providence really have the resources to do that? Did the rebellion suddenly get the industrial output of many nation states without me noticing?

[Vympel]

In the first issue of the Vader Down arc, he single-handedly slaughtered several squadrons of rebel X-wings and even used the Force to deflect an entire salvo of proton torpedoes that were launched against him. If it wasn't for Luke's X-wing colliding with Vader's TIE, Vader may have killed them all.

Poe's an ace, no doubt, but I don't see him defeating Vader. Especially if Vader uses the Force.

This. Poe has zero chance. None.

[The Romulan Republic]

That comics stuff sounds way beyond what Vader demonstrates in the films or Rebels.

Sounds like EU wackiness, again.

[Vympel]

That comics stuff sounds way beyond what Vader demonstrates in the films or Rebels.

Sounds like EU wackiness, again.

No such thing as the EU. Vader Down is as canon as Rebels. And there's nothing in either the film or Rebels to lead us to believe he is not capable of it. Resist the urge to immediately come up with reasons to discount perfectly valid evidence you do not like. Instead, incorporate it into your understanding of the character. Vader Down does not demonstrate that Vader would always win against Poe Dameron, and indeed there are all sorts of 'realistic' scenarios (as opposed to an artificial 1 v 1 scenario) where Vader could make some sort of error or be subject to circumstances that favor Poe.

But the evidence on its face tells us that if Vader were to fight Poe say, 100 times, Vader would certainly win the overwhelming majority of the time.

(as an aside, the notion that the 'best starfighter pilot in the galaxy' by Obi-Wan's estimation and not to mention Dark Lord of the Sith would be incapable of a chain of kills like that which Poe Dameron achieved is ridiculous on its face, and expressly disproved by the events of Vader Down)

As for this torpedo guidance argument - erm - in Vader Down the X-Wings that fire on Vader expressly say:

"This is Yellow Squad, coordinating fire. All torpedoes are locked. Let's see him deflect this!"

The concept of 'locking' is a meaningless one unless the torpedoes are guided.

[Simon_Jester]

That comics stuff sounds way beyond what Vader demonstrates in the films or Rebels.

Sounds like EU wackiness, again.

No such thing as the EU. Vader Down is as canon as Rebels. And there's nothing in either the film or Rebels to lead us to believe he is not capable of it.

This is true, but Rebels also apparently contains canon evidence that sufficiently good pilots who lack the Force can outmaneuver or outfly him.


This is why I keep breaking out analogies to Wedge Antilles in the old EU- because he's presented as a massively competent fighter ace, whose repeated missions and exceptional skills have allowed him to score hundreds of kills. He's the only guy in the galaxy with two Death Stars painted on his fuselage, basically.

People with that kind of record are hardly unprecedented in Star Wars, and they do as a rule have the ability to keep up with Force-empowered pilots. Poe Dameron appears to be another such individual, based on the admittedly limited screen time he's gotten (ten or twenty years from now, when the equivalent of the Rogue Squadron books for the new EU have been published, we'll know more). Now, having that level of skill does not guarantee victory against Vader, but it's respectable.

[Purple]

As for this torpedo guidance argument - erm - in Vader Down the X-Wings that fire on Vader expressly say:

"This is Yellow Squad, coordinating fire. All torpedoes are locked. Let's see him deflect this!"

The concept of 'locking' is a meaningless one unless the torpedoes are guided.

That works.

[K. A. Pital]

He sure can fly, that Poe, but he can never match the coolness of the Dark Side...

[Alyrium Denryle]

That comics stuff sounds way beyond what Vader demonstrates in the films or Rebels.

Sounds like EU wackiness, again.

No such thing as the EU. Vader Down is as canon as Rebels. And there's nothing in either the film or Rebels to lead us to believe he is not capable of it.

This is true, but Rebels also apparently contains canon evidence that sufficiently good pilots who lack the Force can outmaneuver or outfly him.


This is why I keep breaking out analogies to Wedge Antilles in the old EU- because he's presented as a massively competent fighter ace, whose repeated missions and exceptional skills have allowed him to score hundreds of kills. He's the only guy in the galaxy with two Death Stars painted on his fuselage, basically.

People with that kind of record are hardly unprecedented in Star Wars, and they do as a rule have the ability to keep up with Force-empowered pilots. Poe Dameron appears to be another such individual, based on the admittedly limited screen time he's gotten (ten or twenty years from now, when the equivalent of the Rogue Squadron books for the new EU have been published, we'll know more). Now, having that level of skill does not guarantee victory against Vader, but it's respectable.

From everything I have ever been able to tell, Force Precog does not protect someone from outside context problems. It is more like a directed query, or at least that is what the mind can actually handle (even if the force could feed you more information). Too busy trying to predict their flight path and the trajectory of incomming fire that taking it a step beyond that and predict that your opponent is trying to get you caught in your own tractor beams is just not possible.

Which is part of the reason Order 66 was effective. Without a strong emotion to warn them of the danger, it simply did not occur to anyone but Yoda that the clone troopers would suddenly turn on them.

[APlayerHater]

Huh, it's been a while since I responded to this, but I never actually thought proton torpedoes were, like, machines. I always thought they were just another kind of blaster bolt, made of magnetically contained plasma or antiprotons or something. I guess I never looked into what a proton torpedo was supposed to 'be'. Mea Culpa, my apologies over my not looking into this.

-Anyway, in TFA it does appear that we see Poeshooting stormtroopers on the ground with enough accuracy to free the people (han solo, finn) standing less than a foot away from them and whom are bing held up at gunpoint by them. How these shots stop neatly after hitting the troopers and don't superheat the troopers until they explode in a shower of gore, bone and plastic is anyone's guess. They seem to have less effect on the troopers even than chewie's bowcaster. Variable yield shots? Certainly when Luke shot up the surface of the DS in ANH he caused multiple huge explosions, and these are weapons designed to take down star ships with shields.

Anyway, Poe's accuracy and his ace pilot shenanigans in that scene are more impressive than anything I've 'seen' vader do in the movies. Sure, Luke bullseyes wamp rats in his t-16, but I don't think he was able to Robocop-style shoot-the-hostage-taker-without-hitting-the-hostage while flying in a space craft at super high speeds and conceivably not being able to even make out which tiny ants on the ground are which. Vader slowly targeted things with his computer, whereas Poe just zooms in there and blows the hell out of people on the ground in a split second. I be he got head shots on them too, I mean why not? He should have shot the guns out of their hands.

As for Force users vs Non-Force-Users, it looked like 1 or maybe 2 fighters were all you needed to shoot down that one Jedi with the thing on his face from ROTS. I mention that and Han taking Vader by surprise to say that being a force user is no guarantee of victory. That and for all we know Poe's dope pilot skills could come down to him having "Jedi reflexes" as Quigon calls them.

[Elheru Aran]

Poe hit a stone wall, which then exploded, and took out a bunch of stormtroopers. As far as I can recall, he never actually hit any of the stormtroopers with his laser cannons. It was definitely a more powerful explosion than the bowcaster's ammunition, and a larger target.