Death Star Architect speaks out

[Patroklos]

I am pretty sure all pretexts of the DS being a secret disappeared when Alderaan blew up. Once it was operational the whole point was to have it be well know to all, and destroying Alderaan was specifically for the core world audience.

[Lord Revan]

I am pretty sure all pretexts of the DS being a secret disappeared when Alderaan blew up. Once it was operational the whole point was to have it be well know to all, and destroying Alderaan was specifically for the core world audience.

"is known to exist" doesn't equal "the exact location is 'public'" though, after all the Central Intelligence Agency is very much known to exist, however there's very few people who know the exact status of every CIA operative for very good reasons.

Another example is that the Air Force test facility at Groom Lake is known to exist however it's still classifed as to what actually happens behind those gates.

And unlike USA the Galactic Empire cannot trust its long range communications aren't given to enemy hands seeing as the rebels aren't a faction that's clearly seperate and there's rebel agents and supporters within the imperial ranks.

[RogueIce]

Then no, but with today's CGI having a moon sized space station torn apart while burning up in the atmosphere, cuts to desperate Imperials clawing at hatches to escape pods and all the craft in the landing bays floating out of there berths and braking up on the walls as the DS accelerates into the gravity well, as the victorious rebels look on from their cockpits? Titanic in space.

My issue there is a thematic one. Titanic was a tragedy, and you were meant to feel bad about the people falling to their dooms when the stern went vertical and so on. The Imperials are bad guys, you're not supposed to cry over their deaths. Maybe if you want to take a more nuanced approach with shades of gray and so on, but ANH wasn't about that.

Alternatively it just kind of makes the Rebels look like dicks. All these crewers dying slow, painful, horrible (and very visible) deaths while the Rebels look on with big fat smiles on their faces? Yeah...

[Adam Reynolds]

On the subject of the Death Star falling being Titantic in space, I point you towards the Saturday night live Weekend Update sketch from 2005 that was discussing the soon to be released ROTS.

Tina Fey: Lucas has said that it will be more emotional, like Titantic in space. And not very good.

More generally I agree with RogueIce. Star Wars(especially ANH) is a popcorn movie that is supposed to gloss over the deaths shown. It's the reason why stormtroopers always wear faceless white and why we never saw a reaction shot of Alderaan. Narratively it would make no sense for a long drawn out destruction of the Death Star.

I'd also like to point out that, if we go by the movies, Tarkin seemed to have a huge amount of autonomy in Ep 4 - it didn't appear that the Emperor became personally interested until Vader was sort of "promoted" to be the one heading the anti-rebellion efforts in TESB.

And even then, he only cared when Luke Skywalker came onto his radar. He was only concerned because of the threat to the Sith hegemony rather than that to the political stability of the Empire. Even at Endor he was obsessed with Luke rather than the Rebel Alliance. He knew that without a Force user, it was not a serious threat. And its existence allowed him to carry out certain actions in a similar manner to the Bush administration with Iraq, giving him little reason to want it gone*.

Also consider Tarkin's quote: "Regional governors now have direct control over their territories." There is little mention of the Emperor in that discussion, apart from the mention that he had disbanded the Senate. It was likely that he left the governors largely do whatever they wanted as long as they were not a threat to his power directly. That might have also been his reason for disbanding the Senate, that he was tired of dealing with the politics and wanted to leave it to someone else.

* At least until Endor, in which it was becoming a threat due to the problem of the Rebel Alliance causing the Empire to appear weak. The fact that the Mon Cal fleet was now in a position to support the Rebel Alliance is quite striking, it indicates that a world can send its warships on a mission to engage the Death Star and presumably survive. It indicates that the Empire lacks the strength to properly oppress potentially rebellious worlds.

[Patroklos]

My issue there is a thematic one. Titanic was a tragedy, and you were meant to feel bad about the people falling to their dooms when the stern went vertical and so on. The Imperials are bad guys, you're not supposed to cry over their deaths. Maybe if you want to take a more nuanced approach with shades of gray and so on, but ANH wasn't about that.

Did you feel bad for the bridge crew of the Executor? How about the DS crew running past Luke and Vader, presumably to die when they didn't find a shuttle? how about the Gamorrian who fell into the Rancor pit? Jesus, that was far more horrific and graphic than anything I suggested. Were you crying when Yoda was dismembering storm troopers left and right and throwing laser spike through one's chest? When Anakin was butchering the Separatist inner circle? People LIKE to see bad guys die.

I get what you are saying and I don't think the way ANH was actually done was bad. I just don't think something different necessarily would be worse.

On the subject of the Death Star falling being Titantic in space, I point you towards the Saturday night live Weekend Update sketch from 2005 that was discussing the soon to be released ROTS.

More generally I agree with RogueIce. Star Wars(especially ANH) is a popcorn movie that is supposed to gloss over the deaths shown. It's the reason why stormtroopers always wear faceless white and why we never saw a reaction shot of Alderaan. Narratively it would make no sense for a long drawn out destruction of the Death Star.

Maybe we should ask the chard and smoking skeletal remains of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru how they feel about that statement...

And even then, he only cared when Luke Skywalker came onto his radar. He was only concerned because of the threat to the Sith hegemony rather than that to the political stability of the Empire. Even at Endor he was obsessed with Luke rather than the Rebel Alliance. He knew that without a Force user, it was not a serious threat. And its existence allowed him to carry out certain actions in a similar manner to the Bush administration with Iraq, giving him little reason to want it gone*.

Death Squadron and Hoth sort of put that to rest. Not to mention the machinations that went into getting the Rebel fleet to Endor and the elaborate trap to deal with which all happend long after the Emperor had Luke. Was there really no better way to get Luke in one place other than building another, larger metal moon?

Also consider Tarkin's quote: "Regional governors now have direct control over their territories." There is little mention of the Emperor in that discussion, apart from the mention that he had disbanded the Senate. It was likely that he left the governors largely do whatever they wanted as long as they were not a threat to his power directly. That might have also been his reason for disbanding the Senate, that he was tired of dealing with the politics and wanted to leave it to someone else.

That's because he was talking to subordinates. I don't feel the need to mention my CO when directing my sailors to do their jobs because I am acting as his agent. The Emperor disbanded the Senate because they stood in the way of him directly running the Empire as he wished, he wanted more control not less.

* At least until Endor, in which it was becoming a threat due to the problem of the Rebel Alliance causing the Empire to appear weak. The fact that the Mon Cal fleet was now in a position to support the Rebel Alliance is quite striking, it indicates that a world can send its warships on a mission to engage the Death Star and presumably survive. It indicates that the Empire lacks the strength to properly oppress potentially rebellious worlds.

This has LONG been a contradiction in the EU. Hopefully they correct this. Just have Mon Calamari still occupied, the Mon Cal fleet being the escaped civilian refugee ships the survivors skillfully converted to warships. You maintain some of the the EU flavor that way. You could go the other way and have the Rebels actually be more of a territory holding entity instead of guerrilla force but I can't see how the square that with the OT.

[Adam Reynolds]

Did you feel bad for the bridge crew of the Executor? How about the DS crew running past Luke and Vader, presumably to die when they didn't find a shuttle? how about the Gamorrian who fell into the Rancor pit? Jesus, that was far more horrific and graphic than anything I suggested. Were you crying when Yoda was dismembering storm troopers left and right and throwing laser spike through one's chest? When Anakin was butchering the Separatist inner circle? People LIKE to see bad guys die.

I get what you are saying and I don't think the way ANH was actually done was bad. I just don't think something different necessarily would be worse.

It has to do with the magnitude of what we would be seeing. All of the examples you mention, are small scale in comparison to what we would see with the Death Star deorbiting into Yavin. The destruction of the second Death Star and Executor did not dwell upon the fates of the Imperial crew. They both simply exploded.

One of those examples has little relevance, Anakin's slaughter of the Seperatist inner circle was not a positive ending. It was a sign of just how far he had fallen.

Maybe we should ask the chard and smoking skeletal remains of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru how they feel about that statement...

That was two deaths, not three hundred thousand.

Death Squadron and Hoth sort of put that to rest. Not to mention the machinations that went into getting the Rebel fleet to Endor and the elaborate trap to deal with which all happend long after the Emperor had Luke. Was there really no better way to get Luke in one place other than building another, larger metal moon?

Sure he sent Vader after the Rebels, but he showed no interest personally until Luke became known. And with Endor, he was willing to kill two birds with one stone, but his focus was clearly on Luke. Every strategic flaw in the Endor plan was made in order to increase his chances of sucess with Luke.

As for building a second Death Star, that might have been a strategic necessity. If it is possible for worlds with planetary shielding to hold out against a fleet of capital ships, then it would be necessary for a Death Star to crack them. But that doesn't mean the Emperor particularly cares about it.

That's because he was talking to subordinates. I don't feel the need to mention my CO when directing my sailors to do their jobs because I am acting as his agent. The Emperor disbanded the Senate because they stood in the way of him directly running the Empire as he wished, he wanted more control not less.

He had more control, if he chose to exercise it, that doesn't mean that he was all the dedicated in doing so.

This has LONG been a contradiction in the EU. Hopefully they correct this. Just have Mon Calamari still occupied, the Mon Cal fleet being the escaped civilian refugee ships the survivors skillfully converted to warships. You maintain some of the the EU flavor that way. You could go the other way and have the Rebels actually be more of a territory holding entity instead of guerrilla force but I can't see how the square that with the OT.

That would make the most sense if we go with Imperial control at the time of Endor. There is however another option. If the Empire devoted a large percentage of its military assets into producing a second Death Star, then it would be possible that significant worlds were currently in opposition to the Emperor without being part of the Rebel Alliance, especially if local Imperial fleets start to show loyalty to governors rather than the Emperor. Thus the Mon Calamari were able to wholly throw in with the Rebel Alliance without a significant cost as the Empire lacked the strength to do anything about it. It would fit the fact that the Empire seemed desperate to finish work on the battle station.

Who knows how it will play out in the new EU. Defeating a major imperial fleet over Jakku just a year after Endor does however indicate a great deal of strength for the Rebel Alliance or a weak Empire.

[Typhonis 1]

If we go by Shadows of the Empire we know that a private shipping firm had enough ships to transport what was needed to build the Death Star 2. Is Shadows still cannon , according to Disney?

[Lord Revan]

If we go by Shadows of the Empire we know that a private shipping firm had enough ships to transport what was needed to build the Death Star 2. Is Shadows still cannon , according to Disney?

it's not, it's part of the legendaries, only the movies, the Clone Wars CGI series and possibly movie novelizations are considered canon from the pre-disney works.

[Elheru Aran]

To be fair, IIRC Xizor Transport was only *part* of all the shipping the Emperor commissioned for the Death Star II. A large part, mind, but still. Not to mention it was part of the Black Sun criminal conglomerate, one of the biggest such in the galaxy, so it's not quite 'typical'.

[Adam Reynolds]

If we go by Shadows of the Empire we know that a private shipping firm had enough ships to transport what was needed to build the Death Star 2. Is Shadows still cannon , according to Disney?

Not at all. That is why I was suggesting this theory. There is very little in terms of canon sources that still count. Personally I am leaning towards being a film purist given some of the stupid plot elements that plagued Clone Wars.

As for the importance of the Second Death Star, the fact that the Rebel Alliance found it easy to discover indicates that it was a massive dedicated effort on the part of the Empire. While it was a trap, if it had been relatively easy to hide, the Alliance should have expected it to be a trap.

This is a somewhat minimalist position, but given what we see of Clone Wars and the post-ROTJ EU, minimalism seems to be the only reasonable position. The films are also largely more consistent with a smaller industrial base than suggested solely by the Death Star. Coruscant was suitably large, but it was also almost certainly the largest engagement of the Clone Wars. Endor was much smaller and the indication seems to be that Jakku was similar in size to Endor.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I was under the impression from ROTJ that knowledge of the second Death Star, as well as it's location and Palpatine's presence, were deliberately leaked to the Rebellion by Palpatine. Mon Mothma says that many Bothans died to bring us this information, and Palpatine later says that he allowed it to happen to bring them into a trap.

Indeed, from his perspective it was a masterful plan. The Rebellion coudl never have allowed a new Death Star to exist, so they would have no choice but to launch an all-out attack before it became operational. With the shield in place, the superlaser active and a strong fleet presence, Palpatine could reasonably expect a near-total victory. It's only down to pure luck on the ground team's part that he didn't win.

[Adam Reynolds]

I was under the impression from ROTJ that knowledge of the second Death Star, as well as it's location and Palpatine's presence, were deliberately leaked to the Rebellion by Palpatine. Mon Mothma says that many Bothans died to bring us this information, and Palpatine later says that he allowed it to happen to bring them into a trap.

Indeed, from his perspective it was a masterful plan. The Rebellion coudl never have allowed a new Death Star to exist, so they would have no choice but to launch an all-out attack before it became operational. With the shield in place, the superlaser active and a strong fleet presence, Palpatine could reasonably expect a near-total victory. It's only down to pure luck on the ground team's part that he didn't win.

I realize it was a trap. My point was that if the Death Star represented the majority of the Empire's industrial potential, then it would not be surprising to the Rebel Alliance that they were able to find it. Had it been a relatively minor outlay of resources, then it would have made little sense that they would have been able to find it.

Agreed that the overall plan was masterful on the part of Palpatine. He simply had the misfortune of facing a pair of clever gamblers who failed to plan and thus failed to be detectable by his foresight.

[Lord Revan]

Well in the "Death Star" novel (that's no longer canon) it's said that it's said that while it's impossible to fully keep something like the Death Star secret it's just too big of a Project, it doesn't mean you'll find everything, in fact it's strongly implied that the rebels were aware that something big was going on but didn't find what and where until DS1 was nearly finished.

[Adam Reynolds]

Well in the "Death Star" novel (that's no longer canon) it's said that it's said that while it's impossible to fully keep something like the Death Star secret it's just too big of a Project, it doesn't mean you'll find everything, in fact it's strongly implied that the rebels were aware that something big was going on but didn't find what and where until DS1 was nearly finished.

I actually meant the second Death Star. The first Death Star was at a point when the Rebel Alliance didn't have the same level of power and influence. After Yavin, with the destruction of the first Death Star and the immediate failure of the Tarkin Doctrine, they gained legitimacy in the galaxy. By the time of Endor it was relatively easy to discover the location of the second Death Star due to their increase in resources.

[Captain Seafort]

It's only down to pure luck on the ground team's part that he didn't win.

More like gross incompetence. If that one bloke had had the brains to keep the door shut until the battle was over the Alliance would have been crushed at Endor.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually I was referring to them meeting the Ewoks, them knowing about the back door, and just happening to have C-3PO with him who just happened to be able to communicate with the Ewoks after just happening to resemble one of their Gods and just happening to be levitated by Luke to convince them.

[Balrog]

I realize it was a trap. My point was that if the Death Star represented the majority of the Empire's industrial potential, then it would not be surprising to the Rebel Alliance that they were able to find it. Had it been a relatively minor outlay of resources, then it would have made little sense that they would have been able to find it.

I disagree, going by what's said in Tarkin, although the construction of a DS might not be some terrible drain on the Imperial coffers, it would still represent a fairly large project involving a lot of people. It would not have been suspicious for the Rebels to have found out about its construction, even for a galactic empire capable of the industrial capacity necessary for such feats.

All the same, he had no compelling reason to solve the enigma of the battle station's beginnings. What bothered him was that, compliant with a strategy that no base commander - Moff, admiral or general - should have unrestricted access to information regarding shipments, scheduling, or construction progress, no single person was in charge of the project, unless of course the Emperor was considered to be that person. But the Emperor's visits had been few and far between, and it was anyone's guess just how much information was getting past the Imperial Ruling Council the Moffs and others answered to and actually reaching the Emperor's ear. Certainly he was being briefed, but briefings were no longer enough. The project had reached a point where it had to rely on countless suppliers; and though each was being kept in the dark regarding the final destination of their contributions, millions of beings, perhaps tens of millions of beings galaxywide, were now involved with the battle station in one capacity or another. Yes, the project required the on-site presence of a think tank of scientists, weapons specialists, and habitat architects, but what did any of them know about protecting the station from saboteurs?

[Replicant]

It's only down to pure luck on the ground team's part that he didn't win.

More like gross incompetence. If that one bloke had had the brains to keep the door shut until the battle was over the Alliance would have been crushed at Endor.

Not really, the Emperor and Vader both die no matter what happens on the ground. At that point you have Luke Skywalker on the Death Star and the Rebel fleet in space. Anything is possible at this point.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Except you still have an otherwise unassailable but operational Death Star firing on the Rebel Fleet. Even if they manage to take out Executor as they did, they're still facing the massed Imperial fleet and the DSII blowing up their heavy ships one by one. Even Luke can't do much about that before it's too late.

[Batman]

We can never know that. Sure, with the shield still up there's no the Falcon and/or Wedge blowing up the main reactor, but who says there wasn't a self destruct Luke could've triggered? Let's face it, there's always a self destruct.

[Adam Reynolds]

We can never know that. Sure, with the shield still up there's no the Falcon and/or Wedge blowing up the main reactor, but who says there wasn't a self destruct Luke could've triggered? Let's face it, there's always a self destruct.

Or who's to say that he couldn't find a way to drop the shields? If that fails he could just blow it up himself. He had access to a ship and was inside the shields. Though I doubt an Imperial Shuttle could fit, I'm sure he could have come up with something that would have worked.

[Eternal_Freedom]

All those things require time. Shutting down the shields is problematic, since as far as we know the shields were powered and controlled from the surface, which he can't reach without it being obvious what's going on. He would need a missile-armed fighter, which means a TIE Bomber which may not have been fast or nimble enough to make the flight down to the core. Plus, it'd be unshielded and an obvious target for the DS gunners and fighters to aim at. Plus, would he even know the plan to take out the station? Lando and Wedge knew, because it was their mission, Luke was on the ground team.

At any rate, like I said this will take time. Time during which the Rebel Fleet is still surrounded by angry Star Destroyers, the Executor and the DS itself firing on the bigger ships. Sure, Luke might be able to damage, destroy or otherwise disable the DSII, but can he do it fast enough to avoid it turning into a Pyrrhic victory for the Rebels? They had their entire senior leadership involved, the vast bulk of their fleet, their greatest heroes. What good would taking out the DSII be if their fleet is smashed in the process and their movement is leaderless? Sure, no Emperor means the Empire starts to factionalise, but with no serious Rebel threat to distract them, they can find a successor without having jubilant worlds seceding and opportunistic Rebels attackign them at every turn.

[Havok]

It most certainly is said.
"It's a small thermal exhaust port right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit should start a chain reaction which should destroy the station."

[Havok]

It's only down to pure luck on the ground team's part that he didn't win.

More like gross incompetence. If that one bloke had had the brains to keep the door shut until the battle was over the Alliance would have been crushed at Endor.

Not really, the Emperor and Vader both die no matter what happens on the ground. At that point you have Luke Skywalker on the Death Star and the Rebel fleet in space. Anything is possible at this point.

Luke is pretty cool and all, but this isn't Spaceballs dude. There isn't one big red self destruct button to push and the Death Star is crewed by the finest the Empire has to offer, and even guys that will stand up to Vader (deleted scene). They, without the shield going down, keep picking off the cap ships because there will be no countermanding order from Palpatine or Vader to stop.
Their only saving grace is that there will be no orders from them going out to the Star Destroyers to really lay into the rebel fleet.

Best case, the smaller ships get away, but the Alliance fleet is decimated.

[Captain Seafort]

even guys that will stand up to Vader (deleted scene).

I know it's a minor part of your argument, but I'm pretty sure most people would at least make a show of standing up to Vader if the alternative was having to explain to the Emperor why you ignored his orders.