Old EU hypotetical

[Patroklos]

It looks a bit different in TIE Fighter campaign. 3 TIE Defenders can kill 12 TIE Fighters or Interceptors without losses. They are not X-Wings that might be more durable but about equal in parameters, they were pretty much game changers. That's why Zaarin stopped bothering attacking anything but Sienar factories, to deny Empire only edge that could still stop him.

Does it? Between TIE Fighter and its follow on games I have personally destroyed thousands of X-wings and all other manor of star fighter with the humble TIE. And Defenders don't negate the presence of probably millions of capital ships in the Imperial inventory. They never have.

Why not? Even fucking Vong had some support, why not guys that can make much better claim to being continuation of the Republic than rebels? Group with real jedi who can incidentally mind influence anyone they see?

I have no knowledge of the Vong era so I can't comment. However I fail to see how they would have a better claim to the Republic than say people such as Bail Organa (an example, he is gone by this point) or Mon Mothma who were actually high ranking elected officials in that government as opposed to glorified warrior monks with zero political power and have not been twiddling their thumbs for thirty years.

Nobody is going to remember these guys, even Jedi in generally have fallen into the realm of myth. They have few if any allies left alive in the galaxy at large, and certainly fewer still remaining in a position of power. The state and galaxy they return to is unrecognizable from what they know. Plus they are DARK Jedi, not exactly something the Rebel Alliance is amiable to at this point especially with Luke around.

They also have extra advantage that if Star Forge makes too much war material for them they can simply bribe resistance groups with spare arms instead of begging them for supplies like rebellion did. In real world, see richer ISIS replacing poorer secular rebels in influence and territory.

Maybe. Something tells me this Star Forge would have a hard time keeping up with the demands of repelling the entire Imperial Navy (and utterly failing), you know those guys who built two Death Stars on the side, than building ship for other people. They are just some dudes with a factory.

Does anyone actually have a size for the Star Forge? The only thing I could find was "the fins were big enough for capital ships to move between them" or some such which is not impressive in the slightest.

[Esquire]

Can the Star Forge turn out better warships than the CIS could? If not, the Imperial Navy will simply win this second round of the Clone Wars a lot faster than the Republic did the first - they're starting from a position of strength, already mobilized and well-trained, fighting a similar enemy to the one the Republic beat starting from an almost total lack of readiness. The Star Forge can't outproduce the much more numerous Imperial factory worlds and all the Jedi in the galaxy won't be able to convince Imperial citizens to trust an invading droid army from beyond the stars.

Zaarin is irrelevant in a large-scale conflict; as far as I can tell he only ever had a few heavy warships on his side. The Empire can throw 25,000 Star Destroyers at Outbound Flight, as well as some stupendously huge number of other ships.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, isn't the number of Star Destroyers technically non-canon now?

[Patroklos]

This is a "old EU" hypothetical.

[The Romulan Republic]

Right. I forgot about that. Fair enough.

[Irbis]

Can the Star Forge turn out better warships than the CIS could? If not, the Imperial Navy will simply win this second round of the Clone Wars a lot faster than the Republic did the first - they're starting from a position of strength, already mobilized and well-trained, fighting a similar enemy to the one the Republic beat starting from an almost total lack of readiness. The Star Forge can't outproduce the much more numerous Imperial factory worlds and all the Jedi in the galaxy won't be able to convince Imperial citizens to trust an invading droid army from beyond the stars.

CIS had huge handicap. Namely, all planets they controlled were well known to the Republic and had to be defended, each and every one. It's like saying USA should easily crush Al Qaeda/ISIS because they will easily defeat any state with much stronger military.

Dark jedi can throw guns and missiles at every resistance movement in the Galaxy, disperse imperial strength, then decapitate Empire by massed attack on Coruscant, like Zaarin almost did with much weaker force.

Zaarin is irrelevant in a large-scale conflict; as far as I can tell he only ever had a few heavy warships on his side. The Empire can throw 25,000 Star Destroyers at Outbound Flight, as well as some stupendously huge number of other ships.

So what? Vast majority of these is tied down fulfilling numerous commitments. If Empire couldn't even mobilize enough to take out Mon Calamari, their mobile forces can't be big.

Does it? Between TIE Fighter and its follow on games I have personally destroyed thousands of X-wings and all other manor of star fighter with the humble TIE. And Defenders don't negate the presence of probably millions of capital ships in the Imperial inventory. They never have.

I am stating that based on in-character descriptions, not in game abilities. TIE Defender was made to beat any 4 other starfighters, and it did. It wasn't slight quality change, like X-Wing that was just more durable. It was complete gamechanger, which is why Zaarin got priority above rebellion.

I have no knowledge of the Vong era so I can't comment. However I fail to see how they would have a better claim to the Republic than say people such as Bail Organa (an example, he is gone by this point) or Mon Mothma who were actually high ranking elected officials in that government as opposed to glorified warrior monks with zero political power and have not been twiddling their thumbs for thirty years.

They were corrupted by being tied to the system for 2 decades and whatever compromises they made. Outbound flight had leaders who never collaborated with Palpatine nominated by old Republic, plus Jedi. If Luke was so big figurehead for rebels, actual, real Republican Jedi will be much larger.

Nobody is going to remember these guys, even Jedi in generally have fallen into the realm of myth. They have few if any allies left alive in the galaxy at large, and certainly fewer still remaining in a position of power. The state and galaxy they return to is unrecognizable from what they know. Plus they are DARK Jedi, not exactly something the Rebel Alliance is amiable to at this point especially with Luke around.

And who is the hidden expert on Dark Jedi who can recognize them, again?

Insane C'baoth clone fooled Jedi Master Luke, I can't see real, even more powerful C'baoth without clone madness not being able to do it with pre-knight Luke. He just need to say 'old Jedi did this, shut up, youngster'.

Does anyone actually have a size for the Star Forge? The only thing I could find was "the fins were big enough for capital ships to move between them" or some such which is not impressive in the slightest.

See this movie. If the visuals are to scale, SF is easily 10-100 times the size of Earth. Sadly, they most likely are not, and we don't have any definite word on it.

[Purple]

Can the Star Forge turn out better warships than the CIS could? If not, the Imperial Navy will simply win this second round of the Clone Wars a lot faster than the Republic did the first - they're starting from a position of strength, already mobilized and well-trained, fighting a similar enemy to the one the Republic beat starting from an almost total lack of readiness. The Star Forge can't outproduce the much more numerous Imperial factory worlds and all the Jedi in the galaxy won't be able to convince Imperial citizens to trust an invading droid army from beyond the stars.

One thing to consider here is that by the time it was found the SF was something like ~15000 years old. And yet it could comfortably produce ships which were equal to or better than what the republic had at hand. So I think it's safe to assume that it was not just building old designs but actually designing new ones based on the technology it was presented. Will this work for modern SW tech is hard to say. But I would not consider it impossible.

[Esquire]

Can the Star Forge turn out better warships than the CIS could? If not, the Imperial Navy will simply win this second round of the Clone Wars a lot faster than the Republic did the first - they're starting from a position of strength, already mobilized and well-trained, fighting a similar enemy to the one the Republic beat starting from an almost total lack of readiness. The Star Forge can't outproduce the much more numerous Imperial factory worlds and all the Jedi in the galaxy won't be able to convince Imperial citizens to trust an invading droid army from beyond the stars.

One thing to consider here is that by the time it was found the SF was something like ~15000 years old. And yet it could comfortably produce ships which were equal to or better than what the republic had at hand. So I think it's safe to assume that it was not just building old designs but actually designing new ones based on the technology it was presented. Will this work for modern SW tech is hard to say. But I would not consider it impossible.

It's a very useful and impressive factory, there's no denying that.

However, I don't think it really matters; unless the Star Forge can either outproduce the entire rest of the galaxy or turn out warships significantly superior to the Imperial standard, all we're going to get is a smaller-scale repeat of the Clone Wars. Outbound Flight hasn't got enough personnel to crew a galactic-class navy, so they'll have to be relying on droids. The CIS showed that droid-crewed ships aren't a match for the Republic, let alone the Empire, and that was with a numerical advantage and technological parity.

Outbound Flight might, of course, try some sort of elaborate decapitation strike instead of a traditional military confrontation, but it's a lot harder to talk intelligently about that kind of thing because we have to take Palpatine's precognition into account.

CIS had huge handicap. Namely, all planets they controlled were well known to the Republic and had to be defended, each and every one. It's like saying USA should easily crush Al Qaeda/ISIS because they will easily defeat any state with much stronger military.

Dark jedi can throw guns and missiles at every resistance movement in the Galaxy, disperse imperial strength, then decapitate Empire by massed attack on Coruscant, like Zaarin almost did with much weaker force.

The US would easily crush ISIS if it were as willing to use its strength as the Empire is. This is a government that destroys its own planets to make a point; you think they wouldn't just incinerate any resistance movement that tried to take advantage of the Jedi invasion to rise up from orbit? And as for finding the Star Forge... that's what probe droids are for. Shoot a couple at every system in that part of the galaxy, wait a few days, receive location, dispatch fleet. It took longer than that to find the Rebels on Hoth because their base was both much smaller and much better hidden; titanic star-powered factories aren't very subtle.

Can you describe Zaarin's coup attempt? What was his plan, what forces did he have available? How did he disperse Imperial strength, how did he bypass Coruscant's defenses? As we saw in ROTS, the speed of hyperdrive means it doesn't take very long at all to reinforce a world under attack and the Emperor has a long history of putting himself in personally-dangerous positions to further long-term goals. How much of Zaarin's success was genuine and how much was Palpatine amusing himself?

Zaarin is irrelevant in a large-scale conflict; as far as I can tell he only ever had a few heavy warships on his side. The Empire can throw 25,000 Star Destroyers at Outbound Flight, as well as some stupendously huge number of other ships.

So what? Vast majority of these is tied down fulfilling numerous commitments. If Empire couldn't even mobilize enough to take out Mon Calamari, their mobile forces can't be big.

With hyperdrive, a fleet can be across the galaxy in days. You're seriously suggesting that the Empire won't shift forces around to take account of the massive Jedi-led invasion fleet? Mon Calamari clearly wasn't a threat to the Empire as a whole and may have actually helped them by tying down Rebel fleet assets defending it. A Star Cruiser in defensive orbit over Mon Calamari is one that isn't out bushwhacking patrol ships.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There is another reason why a massive decapitation strike at, say Coruscant would be ineffective, the fucking powerful defences the planet has during the height of the Empire. Double-layered planetary shields, all those GOlan platforms, an the Home Fleet which includes at least one Executor-class Star Dreadnought, the Guardian, with Lusankya buried under the surface and ready to launch at short notice, plus Sagan only knows how many hundreds or thousands of lesser ships. Even in the minimalist X-Wing series, describing the defences under the New Republic, there were 10 ISDs and 7 Mon Cal cruisers. No-one is taking Coruscant in a surprise attack, certainly not before reinforcements can arrive.

As for the Star Forge's impressive construction rate, it simply cannot beat an Empire that built 60-odd percent of the vast DSII in six months, in secret. No can do. And the the Empire ever identifies where the Star Forge is (which is possible, the EU established that Palpatine appropriated a huge chunk of the Jedi Archives after Order 66, which would include details about the war against Malak and the SF's location), the Outbound Flight crew is fucked. Especially since (being the EU) the Emperor could whistle up the Sun Crusher from the Mas Installation and goodbye star, goodbye Star Forge, goodbye any ships nearby.

[The Romulan Republic]

Insane C'baoth clone fooled Jedi Master Luke, I can't see real, even more powerful C'baoth without clone madness not being able to do it with pre-knight Luke. He just need to say 'old Jedi did this, shut up, youngster'.

Luke doubted C'baoth as I recall, and in this scenario Yoda is still alive. If Luke talks to Yoda, Yoda can point out such bullshit on C'baoth's part.