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Another "Awesome" Fan Idea For How the Movies Should've Been

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Elfdart
PostPosted: 2012-07-12 07:41pm 

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Ralin wrote:
True, but people breaking vows of celibacy isn’t unheard of. And yeah, just hearing about someone named Skywalker would get written off as a coincidence, but hearing about a Skywalker and an Obi-wan is going to raise some alarms.


Possibly, but only if Ben is using his last name and not an alias if/when he goes into town.

Quote:
It’s possible, and we don’t know how many people knew about crazy old Ben out in the desert, but do you really think it’s likely that he never made a trip into town for supplies or to catch up on the news in twenty years? Owen and Luke knew about him, and Luke wouldn’t have any reason not to mention his name to others. People gossip, especially when they live in a small community.


Yoda managed to survive all by himself in the wilderness. If he did go into town and did use his real name, then yes that was pretty dumb on his part. But he does have two aces up his sleeve:

1) He can tell when Vader is near (and vice versa).

2) He had no trouble outwitting stormtroopers and giving them the slip -oh, and if need be, chopping a few of the fuckers.

Quote:
Quote:
In ROTS, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Bail Organa agree to split the kids up and see to it that they're raised in normal families (or as normal as you can get under those conditions). So apparently the idea is that whatever risk there might be in being discovered is worth it to place them with trustworthy families and have them raised like normal kids.


Yeah, and that's also fine. But why not get Owen and Beru to tell Luke he was their son and have him grow up as Luke Lars? Why didn’t Obi-wan change his name completely to Ben Sandrunner or whatever?

I’m not nerd-raging over this and it's not a big deal, but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either.


I'd think that at some point Luke is going to wonder why he doesn't look like "Mom & Dad". Ben is already in a position where he's got to bullshit Luke for his own good, but there's a limit.
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dworkin
PostPosted: 2012-07-16 09:42pm 

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When is the name 'Skywalker' mentioned in ANH? IIRC it's by Obi-Wan. His aunt and uncle just call him 'Luke'. He doesn't tell anyone his name at Mos Eisley and after that he's in the Death Star or the Rebellion.

Obi-Wan knows. He only tells Leia his name in the DS and she and the Rebellion are hardly going to turn him in.

For all we know his name is 'Luke Lars' on the Imperial Census forms.

At the end of ANH the only people who know Luke's surname are dead, in the Rebellion. Vader is probably very suspicious. After all, running round enemy strongholds and then destroying them in some otherwise suicidal move was exactly what he and Obi-Wan did on Tuesdays.
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Galvatron
PostPosted: 2012-07-17 04:02pm 

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^^^^ :shock:

Fucking brilliant. I never thought of that in all this time. Nice work. (No, I'm not being a sarcastic prick)

Too bad none of the EU authers ever thought of it or this "plot hole" would have been resolved a long time ago.
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Elfdart
PostPosted: 2012-07-17 07:31pm 

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If the EU didn't take an inch of assumption and run a marathon with it, it wouldn't be the EU, now would it?
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-18 05:37am 

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That is a pretty good catch. Literally over 1000 viewings of ANH and I never caught it. :lol:
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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-18 10:35am 

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dworkin wrote:
When is the name 'Skywalker' mentioned in ANH? IIRC it's by Obi-Wan. His aunt and uncle just call him 'Luke'. He doesn't tell anyone his name at Mos Eisley and after that he's in the Death Star or the Rebellion.

Obi-Wan knows. He only tells Leia his name in the DS and she and the Rebellion are hardly going to turn him in.

For all we know his name is 'Luke Lars' on the Imperial Census forms.

I suppose - but Luke has no idea that his real lastname is supposed to be some sort of secret. Remember, Luke has no idea he's anybody of any importance whatsoever - and he also seems to know his real lastname is Skywalker. He casually reveals himself as "Luke Skywalker" on the Deathstar, and since there's no indication he thinks the name is supposed to mean anything, there's no reason to think he usually goes by the name "Luke Lars" while on Tatooine.

I mean honestly, at the time ANH was written, the idea that Luke's existence was supposed to be a secret wasn't even conceived of, and the backstory of Anakin Skywalker was only sketchy at best. So it's no surprise that some retconning is necessary when viewing ANH in the context of the Prequels (or even ESB for that matter.)
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2012-07-18 02:33pm 

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Tbh there could be millions of Skywalkers in the galaxy and it's probably not common knowlage that Anakin Skywalker was the son of Shmi Skywalker, thus it's not neceseserly so obvious that Luke Skywalker the nephew of Owen Lars is in anyway related to the legendary "Hero without fear".

especially when you consider that the Clone Wars probably did quite alot of damage to the republic records the empire would enherit (civil wars tend to do that). For all we know the record of the Clone Wars are intentionally a total clusterfuck of thruths, half-thruths and out right fabrications to prevent anyone from discovering that the emperor was the one pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Also as I pointed out before Anakin Skywalker officially died at Mustafar and Padme officially died without giving birth, so even if you knew about their affair there's no reason to assume the children made it.

Also I'm pretty sure the hunt for the remaining jedi was revealed to the select few so I dout an imperial governor in the ass end of nowhere that's Tatooine or the criminal element anywhere even knew about the hunt.
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Eternal_Freedom
PostPosted: 2012-07-18 04:12pm 

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Lord Revan wrote:
especially when you consider that the Clone Wars probably did quite alot of damage to the republic records the empire would enherit (civil wars tend to do that). For all we know the record of the Clone Wars are intentionally a total clusterfuck of thruths, half-thruths and out right fabrications to prevent anyone from discovering that the emperor was the one pulling the strings behind the scenes.


Given what the Empire did to change the preentation of it's very recent history, this would not surprise me at all.

I am referring to X-Wing: Wedge's Gambit where Rogue Squadron infiltrates Coruscant and some members visit the Galactic Museum. The Imperial version of Endor (at that point only two or three years in the past) was presented totally differently to cast the Emperor in the best possible light, to the point where it was a Rebel "Planetary Ore Extractor" that was fought over. Even Wedge, who was at the battle, admitted that he found the Imperial version most compelling.

Now, if they can manage that for an event two years ago, I have no doubt they can spin the Clone Wars in an equally impressive way.
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2012-07-18 10:45pm 

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Though Endor is even more remoted then Tatooine and while recent in the end it only involved essentially 2 sector fleets (the Death Squadron and the rebel fleet), a legion or so of ground troops and the crew of DS2, so it was not like that even the basic details were known to that many.

where as the clone wars as a galactic level conflict that affected pretty much everyone living during that time period one way or another so the basics were probably more well known, so it's probably harder to fully fabricate a pro-imperial version. So ironically it might be harder for the empire to spin the clone wars then it is to do it from more recent events simply due to the scale.

That said due to the same scale there's probably tons of data from the clone wars anything from combat reports to propaganda pieces and if you threw all of that into a single index file, simply labeled "clone wars" in the galactic databanks with no qualifiers for the relibility of the info it might a while for anyone to swift thru that to get a good picture of the war. Tbh I wouldn't supriced if imperial children were thought a very simplified version of the conflict, also thanks to the "Death Star" novel we know that certain subjects are not something you want to look at.
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dworkin
PostPosted: 2012-07-21 10:27pm 

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Channel72 wrote:
I suppose - but Luke has no idea that his real lastname is supposed to be some sort of secret. Remember, Luke has no idea he's anybody of any importance whatsoever - and he also seems to know his real lastname is Skywalker. He casually reveals himself as "Luke Skywalker" on the Deathstar, and since there's no indication he thinks the name is supposed to mean anything, there's no reason to think he usually goes by the name "Luke Lars" while on Tatooine.


Except he has no reason to use it. It's pretty clear from the one family scene that Luke's family history is not spoken of. Owen shuts Luke down damn quick at the mention of Kenobi and even faster when Luke asks about his dad.

Earlier, when speaking to C3PO he introduces himself as 'Just Luke'. It's the only time Luke introduces himself casually to someone. Of course, there are strong thematic reasons why this is done. But it tells us how Luke sees hiomself. Even to a slave he is "Luke".

We learn of the name "Skywalker" from the mentor. Ex-General and almost ex-Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi. Everyone notices the glowy sword but misses the handing out of the heroic name.

Luke then trundles off after Kenobi on "Some damnfool idealistic crusade". He pretty much follows others leads until the middle of the prison break. The act of introducing himself as "Luke Skywalker" is a transformative experience. He goes from being Luke the farmer to fucking Luke Skywalker who like his father is "A cunning warrior" and "The best starfighter pilot in the galaxy". From this moment on Luke starts acting on his own inititive and leads as well as follows.

This is why I would contend he never used the name before because that wasn't who he was. It is only after the moment of realisation that he isn't a farmer but some sort of heroic warrior that he transforms and embraces his destiny.
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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-22 09:47am 

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dworkin wrote:
Except he has no reason to use it. It's pretty clear from the one family scene that Luke's family history is not spoken of. Owen shuts Luke down damn quick at the mention of Kenobi and even faster when Luke asks about his dad.

Earlier, when speaking to C3PO he introduces himself as 'Just Luke'. It's the only time Luke introduces himself casually to someone. Of course, there are strong thematic reasons why this is done. But it tells us how Luke sees hiomself. Even to a slave he is "Luke".

We learn of the name "Skywalker" from the mentor. Ex-General and almost ex-Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi. Everyone notices the glowy sword but misses the handing out of the heroic name.

Luke then trundles off after Kenobi on "Some damnfool idealistic crusade". He pretty much follows others leads until the middle of the prison break. The act of introducing himself as "Luke Skywalker" is a transformative experience. He goes from being Luke the farmer to fucking Luke Skywalker who like his father is "A cunning warrior" and "The best starfighter pilot in the galaxy". From this moment on Luke starts acting on his own inititive and leads as well as follows.

This is why I would contend he never used the name before because that wasn't who he was. It is only after the moment of realisation that he isn't a farmer but some sort of heroic warrior that he transforms and embraces his destiny.

Well, that's an interesting way to look at it, certainly. You're right that Luke first says his real last name outloud only after he's embarked on the hero's journey with Obi-Wan. But I'm not sure if that's significant, or just a coincidence, in terms of thematic structure, as well as the in-Universe discussion of Luke's lastname. The ANH script uses the lastname "Luke Skywalker" right from the beginning, referring to Luke as "Luke Skywalker" even when he's just a farmboy, so I'm not sure if George Lucas meant for us to understand that adopting the name "Skywalker" was supposed to be a transformative experience. It's more likely just a convenient coincidence that Luke never had reason to say his lastname until that moment. I mean, it's not like Obi-Wan ever tells look his father's name or reveals to Luke that his real lastname is Skywalker. In fact, Obi-Wan never says the word "Skywalker" either.
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Daefaron
PostPosted: 2012-07-23 11:05am 

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About Owen/Beru never saying his last name...

How many times do you call somebody's last name out when yelling for them to come to a meal or start a chore? Most parents just go "Hey bob, suppers done!" and not "Bob smith, supper is on the table!"
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Elfdart
PostPosted: 2012-07-23 12:49pm 

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Daefaron wrote:
About Owen/Beru never saying his last name...

How many times do you call somebody's last name out when yelling for them to come to a meal or start a chore? Most parents just go "Hey bob, suppers done!" and not "Bob smith, supper is on the table!"


Well, young people are often called by their full name when being scolded.
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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-25 04:22pm 

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Interestingly, the ROTJ script seems to reveal that there was never supposed to be any connection between Anakin Skywalker and Tatooine at all. The dialogue between Obi Wan and Luke on Degobah is a lot longer than what made it into the actual movie. One of the cut lines from Obi-Wan is:

Quote:
BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan.


So apparently, originally Obi-Wan was Owen's brother (why he has the lastname Kenobi is a mystery) and the reason Luke grew up on Tatooine was because that's where Obi-Wan's brother lived.
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Batman
PostPosted: 2012-07-25 05:41pm 

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Given that it's not unheard of for the husband to take the wife's last name in the real world I don't consider it all that unfathomable that Owen started out as a Kenobi and only became a Lars when he married Beru.
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2012-07-25 05:45pm 

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Also did we ever "hear" Owen or Beru's last name during the films (or the novelizations), I seem to remember them only being called uncle Owen or aunt Beru, thus making possible to use an other last name then Lars.
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dworkin
PostPosted: 2012-07-27 02:55am 

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Channel72 wrote:
Well, that's an interesting way to look at it, certainly. You're right that Luke first says his real last name outloud only after he's embarked on the hero's journey with Obi-Wan. But I'm not sure if that's significant, or just a coincidence, in terms of thematic structure, as well as the in-Universe discussion of Luke's lastname. The ANH script uses the lastname "Luke Skywalker" right from the beginning, referring to Luke as "Luke Skywalker" even when he's just a farmboy, so I'm not sure if George Lucas meant for us to understand that adopting the name "Skywalker" was supposed to be a transformative experience. It's more likely just a convenient coincidence that Luke never had reason to say his lastname until that moment. I mean, it's not like Obi-Wan ever tells look his father's name or reveals to Luke that his real lastname is Skywalker. In fact, Obi-Wan never says the word "Skywalker" either.


Yes, it's pretty much thinking about the film as a mythic tale. But the more prosaic explanation that 'Skywalker' is as noteworthy as 'Smith' or 'Jones' is equally good. After all, Luke's best friend's surname is 'Darklighter'.
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2012-07-27 03:34am 

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then there's the matter of scale to consider, even if "Skywalker" was non-common or even semi-rare name, the human population of the Empire is easily in trillions or quadrillions so we have to alot of people with that last name so the chances of finding out Luke by accident (you must remember that before ANH neither Palpatine or Vader were activily searching for Luke) are rather small and then you must consider that even if someone found out they would have be take seriously.

I wouldn't supriced if there were people in the Empire claming to be Anakin's or Obi-wan's relative or them "hiding" but were actually just someone looking for fame or someone gone crazy due the horrors they witnessed during the clone wars, it even ironically could have been how Obi-wan was able to hide in Tatooine by pretending to be harmless nut thinking he's the legendary Jedi General.
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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-27 09:14am 

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I don't think anyone is suggesting that there was a big chance that Obi-Wan or Luke would ever be discovered. The question is more, from a strategic perspective at the planning stages, why would Obi-Wan choose Tatooine as a hiding place for Luke (in Vader's step-fathers house no-less)? There is at least some risk, (however small) that Vader might return one day for whatever reason, and be able to sense Luke's presence.

As for the name Skywalker, I don't think anyone is suggesting that there's a seriously big chance that some random passerby on Tatooine would overhear the name "Skywalker" and immediately phone Palpatine - but again, from a strategic perspective at the planning stages, why the hell NOT change Luke's lastname - just as a precaution? They changed Leia's lastname, after all.

If the original ROTJ script indicates how Lucas thought about the whole situation, it's clear that hiding out on Tatooine was as good a place as any, because originally there was no connection between Anakin Skywalker and Tatooine. It's only in the Prequels where Lucas decided (for some reason) that Anakin also has to be from Tatooine - probably because Lucas wanted a locale that the audience would recognize from the original films.
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2012-07-27 09:54am 

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Leia's last name was changed as she was as far as I know legally adopted to the Organa family, the thing was that Obi-wan and Yoda were under time constraits, they needed to find someone who was trustworthy enough to both raise Luke well and not give him to the imperial officials if they ran into a though time and needed the credits.

Few things we learned about Owen and Beru is that family is important to them after all Owen wasn't holding Luke down because he wanted to be mean but rather he was holding him back so that luke wouldn't end up dead at his early 20s like his father (as far as Owen knew Anakin was dead).

sure there was a risk, but there was always a risk and there wasn't much time to think about it, so Obi-wan made a judgement call. It's not like it was some detailed plan they had been thinking on for years it was something they made up on the spot.

And realistically speaking only one who would be instrested on Luke and Leia would be Vader who as far as Obi-wan knew had died on Mustafar (he didn't learn about his survival until later) and the Emperor who probably wouldn't look at Tatooine population records for the off-chance that Amidala had given birth (dispite the records saying otherwise) and the Jedi desided to hide the child there (Palpatine didn't about that it was children).

also you got remember this wasn't much after the initial phase of order 66 meaning Yoda and Obi-wan could still been recording from the shock of having their whole world drop from under them and seeing pretty much everyone and everything they cared for be killed, not a time you're calm and analytical about your decisions.
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Arawn Fenn
PostPosted: 2012-08-17 02:54pm 

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dworkin wrote:
When is the name 'Skywalker' mentioned in ANH? IIRC it's by Obi-Wan.


Ben never says it in ANH.
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fordlltwm
PostPosted: 2012-08-20 07:25pm 

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"I'm Luke Skywalker I'm hear to rescue you."
"You're who?"
"I'm here with Ben Kenobi...."


In the death star holding cell IIRC
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aussiemuscle308
PostPosted: 2012-09-17 09:46pm 

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dworkin wrote:
For all we know his name is 'Luke Lars' on the Imperial Census forms.

Since tatooine is a Hutt planet, i doubt the imperials go there much, let alone have accurate records.

elfdart wrote:
Yoda managed to survive all by himself in the wilderness. If he did go into town and did use his real name, then yes that was pretty dumb on his part.

i didn't think there was any cities or technology on Dagobah. i guess i figured the whole planet was unpopulated by intelligent beings, otherwise Luke would have landed on a heliport instead in a swamp. (regardless of how small a town is, that's where you'd go to find someone).
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Boeing 757
PostPosted: 2012-09-18 02:26am 

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aussiemuscle308 wrote:
dworkin wrote:
For all we know his name is 'Luke Lars' on the Imperial Census forms.

Since tatooine is a Hutt planet, i doubt the imperials go there much, let alone have accurate records.


EU aside, I was always under the impression from ANH that the Empire claimed a presence there, what not with stormtroopers strolling through Mos Eisley and star destroyers patrolling it. Though I agree with what you mean, they don't seem to control that world all that much. Record-keeping must be pretty hard.
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Boeing 757
PostPosted: 2012-09-18 02:30am 

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Elfdart wrote:
Daefaron wrote:
About Owen/Beru never saying his last name...

How many times do you call somebody's last name out when yelling for them to come to a meal or start a chore? Most parents just go "Hey bob, suppers done!" and not "Bob smith, supper is on the table!"


Well, young people are often called by their full name when being scolded.


I can't ever recall that ever having happened to me or to anyone whom I know.
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