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Another "Awesome" Fan Idea For How the Movies Should've Been

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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-05 07:32pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-02-03 06:28pm
Posts: 1325
Location: New York
Elfdart wrote:
Feel free to quote from the movie where it's implied that Kenobi is "generally known in the Anchorhead region".

Seriously?

The script doesn't explicitly say that Kenobi is "generally known" throughout the region, but it suggests through Luke's dialogue that "Old Ben Kenobi" is known by the locals as this crazy dude that hangs around out in the desert.

ANH Script wrote:
LUKE: Obi-Wan Kenobi? I wonder if he means old Ben Kenobi?

THREEPIO: I beg your pardon, sir, but do you know what he's talking
about?

LUKE: Well, I don't know anyone named Obi-Wan, but old Ben lives out
beyond the dune sea. He's kind of a strange old hermit.
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Tychu
PostPosted: 2012-07-06 08:42pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2002-07-28 01:20am
Posts: 1189
Location: Deer Park, Long Island, New York
The main problem with your "Better movies" is that to any North Easterner (USA) Obi-Wan can never be confused with Obi-One. It doesn't sound similar to us.
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Batman
PostPosted: 2012-07-06 08:55pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13707
Location: Looking for another drawer
Now imagine what it's like for the parts of humanity whose native tongue isn't english. :D (people watch Wars outside the US you know).
Something tells me 'Obi-Heinz Kenobi' to make it rhyme with 'Obi-Eins Kenobi' to make it work in the german version would have resulted in even more hilarity than the original approach.
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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-07 08:58am 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-02-03 06:28pm
Posts: 1325
Location: New York
Tychu wrote:
The main problem with your "Better movies" is that to any North Easterner (USA) Obi-Wan can never be confused with Obi-One. It doesn't sound similar to us.

It's odd you say that. I've lived in New York my whole life, and grew up on Long Island. I'm quite familar with Deer Park in Suffolk County, (which you've identified as your location), and to me, Obi-Wan sounds exactly the same as Obi-One, unless you pronounce "Wan" with a "short a" (like "ran" or "man"). But in the movies, they pronounce "Wan" like "wun", which sounds exactly like "one" to me.

Not that I approve of this ridiculous cloned Jedi idea...
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-09 07:45pm 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12841
Location: Oakland CA
Channel72 wrote:
On the other hand, the OT never goes as far as the Prequels by showing that force-sensitivity is completely determined by genetics -
How do you figure this?
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-09 07:53pm 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12841
Location: Oakland CA
Channel72 wrote:
Elfdart wrote:
Feel free to quote from the movie where it's implied that Kenobi is "generally known in the Anchorhead region".

Seriously?

The script doesn't explicitly say that Kenobi is "generally known" throughout the region, but it suggests through Luke's dialogue that "Old Ben Kenobi" is known by the locals as this crazy dude that hangs around out in the desert.

ANH Script wrote:
LUKE: Obi-Wan Kenobi? I wonder if he means old Ben Kenobi?

THREEPIO: I beg your pardon, sir, but do you know what he's talking
about?

LUKE: Well, I don't know anyone named Obi-Wan, but old Ben lives out
beyond the dune sea. He's kind of a strange old hermit.

So because Luke and Owen know the name of the "strange old hermit" emphasis on the word hermit, you automatically assume that he is well known in Anchorhead.
All this line and the one from the dinner table suggests is that Owen knows him and Luke had heard of him, more than likely through Owen and Beru. If anything it shows that Luke barely even knows of him. The rest is PURE speculation on your part to try to make you already weak argument.
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aussiemuscle308
PostPosted: 2012-07-09 08:33pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2011-01-20 11:53pm
Posts: 201
Havok wrote:
emphasis on the word hermit, you automatically assume that he is well known in Anchorhead.

Hermits don't tend to get around or socialise much. We have one around here that people gossip about, but i don't even know his name, but see him walking along the road sometimes.
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Stofsk
PostPosted: 2012-07-09 08:38pm 

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Joined: 2003-11-10 01:36am
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Was Ben completely self-sufficient? Why wouldn't the people in Anchorhead know of him? Wouldn't he need to get supplies somehow and from somewhere?

Honestly the line strikes me as Luke referring to him by reputation. I suppose it could be interpreted to mean ONLY Owen, Beru and Luke knew of him, but I don't think that's the only interpretation possible, and it does strike me as being a less interesting setting if it were the case.
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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-10 02:17pm 

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Joined: 2010-02-03 06:28pm
Posts: 1325
Location: New York
Havok wrote:
So because Luke and Owen know the name of the "strange old hermit" emphasis on the word hermit, you automatically assume that he is well known in Anchorhead.
All this line and the one from the dinner table suggests is that Owen knows him and Luke had heard of him, more than likely through Owen and Beru. If anything it shows that Luke barely even knows of him. The rest is PURE speculation on your part to try to make you already weak argument.

I don't automatically assume he's necessarily well-known, but I agree with Stofsk - I've always interpreted Luke's line to imply that "Old Ben Kenobi" is someone that Luke knows about from living in the area. Luke's line comes off to me as something analagous to "well, I know of this crazy hobo that hangs around outside the 7-11 sometimes..."

Yeah, this doesn't give us much information, but it certainly doesn't imply, as Elfdart said, that Kenobi's existence is ONLY known to Luke and his family. It's possible, but I doubt any native English speaker would interpret the dialogue that way.

Anyway, no matter how you rationalize it, literally hiding Luke at his grandmother's house doesn't really seem like a good plan, plot hole or not.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-10 06:12pm 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
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Location: Oakland CA
Elfdart didn't say that. He said it makes no difference if they were the only ones that did know him.

And why not? It is the one place in the galaxy Vader is probably never going to go. Even in ANH, he sent troops down to Tattooine instead of going himself which in pretty much every other instance as Anakin or Vader, he has been shown to do.
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Darth Wong
PostPosted: 2012-07-10 06:38pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Posts: 70016
Location: Toronto, Canada
I can't believe how much meaning people can extract out of small things. OK, so Obi-Wan Kenobi went by the name "Ben Kenobi" while he lived on Tattooine. So what? Unless "Kenobi" is a super-rare name (and we know from Skywalker's case that they don't get special Jedi names; they keep their given names), that's not exactly much to track someone down with.

If you're looking for Ron Jeremy, the fact that there's a guy named Peter Jeremy in Detroit doesn't mean shit to you. And while it might seem like a strange choice to hide Luke so close to Anakin's home, Vader doesn't even know Luke exists, so he's not looking for him.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-10 07:06pm 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
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Location: Oakland CA
No way dude. I know a Chris Wong... IT'S YOU IN DISGUISE! :lol:
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Batman
PostPosted: 2012-07-10 07:19pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13707
Location: Looking for another drawer
I don't get the joke. But then, I usually don't.

And frankly, I don't see the problem. So let's assume Ben is known as 'yeah, that's that strange dude living out in the Dune Sea' to the general Anchorhead populace. That's a population of what? On a planet at the ass-end of nowhere so even if there were something unusual about the name Kenobi chances are it would never have shown up on the Empire's radar.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-10 07:37pm 

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Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
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Location: Oakland CA
I think sources peg it at around 200,000 at the time of the Empire.
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Ralin
PostPosted: 2012-07-11 06:08am 

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Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am
Posts: 1170
I think it's more a matter of him having the same name, living on Tattooine (which presumably can't be a large community whatever the exact numbers are), wearing what are apparently the official Jedi robes and having a reputation for being "weird."

I mean, yeah, Vader doesn't want to go to Tattooine because he has bad memories there, but if he or anyone who knows Vader's past does go there and hears about crazy old man Kenobi they're going to get a suspicious.

And there were at least some people other than Palpatine and Vader who did know some of the details about Vader's history. In Shadows of the Empire Prince Xizor recognized the Skywalker name, and while the head of Black Sun is a long way from the average person in terms of what he knows the information was clearly out there for at least some people. And Tattooine was apparently run by the Hutts. Can't remember if Jabba was actually connected to Black Sun, but that's another way for word to reach the wrong people.

Plus the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it clear that Obi-wan and Anakin were really famous back during the Clone Wars. Sure you could say that maybe Skywalker and Kenobi are very common names in the Star Wars galaxy, but when you add it all up it still seems like a really weird and unnecessarily risky decision on Obi-wan's part.

My theory would be that Obi-wan just wasn't thinking straight when he turned Luke over to the Lars and that by the time he was thinking clearly again it was too late to take him back without lightsabering innocent people to keep them from talking.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-11 04:03pm 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12841
Location: Oakland CA
Think of a strange last name, now look in a phonebook. Then look in the phonebook of the next closest area, then the next state, the country, then the rest of the world.
Now multiply that by a thousand-thousand worlds and trillions of beings.

And as I have said... the "official" Jedi robes that look just like the "official" moisture farmer robes.

This is the problem with people not really paying attention to the movies. No one but Anakin and Luke give a fuck about Tatooine. The only reason to be there is because of them. If Anakin is out of the picture as Vader and no one knows Luke exists, then it is an inconsequential dust ball 99.9999999% of the people in the galaxy haven't heard of.
It is only "destiny" or the will of the Force or whatever that keeps people going back there.

As an aside, I would have dumped Tatooine from ROTJ and set it on a different planet just to alleviate this Tatooine is the center of the universe feeling people have. It is the center of Luke and Anakin's universe, but that is it.
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Ralin
PostPosted: 2012-07-11 04:41pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am
Posts: 1170
Havok wrote:
Think of a strange last name, now look in a phonebook. Then look in the phonebook of the next closest area, then the next state, the country, then the rest of the world.
Now multiply that by a thousand-thousand worlds and trillions of beings.


Yeah, but why take the chance at all? How hard would it have been for Obi-wan to change his name completely and tell Owen and Beru that it would be a good idea to have Luke take their surname? The Force not withstanding, Obi-wan doesn’t know the future. What’s to say, I dunno, that Vader wouldn’t have decided he felt like going home one last time to kill Waddo and everyone who was ever mean to him as a kid? Or that he felt like genociding the Tusken Raiders or whatever?

Quote:
This is the problem with people not really paying attention to the movies. No one but Anakin and Luke give a fuck about Tatooine.

It is only "destiny" or the will of the Force or whatever that keeps people going back there.


And the Hutts. I know you don’t like the EU, but Jabba was apparently a fairly major crime lord, and he was around during the Clone Wars, so he would recognize Kenobi and Skywalker’s names.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-07-11 05:21pm 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12841
Location: Oakland CA
And again why would he KNOW their names? Tell me why would a galactic scale crime boss know the name of the nephew of a moisture farmer? Why would he know the name of a hermit that lives in isolation?

You guys keep going, just like the dumbass in the OP, that "OMG the names are SOOO obvious and would give them away!!!" yet you have given exactly zero reasons as to why anyone would even know their names, let alone be able to make the connection.
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Channel72
PostPosted: 2012-07-11 05:26pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-02-03 06:28pm
Posts: 1325
Location: New York
Havok wrote:
As an aside, I would have dumped Tatooine from ROTJ and set it on a different planet just to alleviate this Tatooine is the center of the universe feeling people have. It is the center of Luke and Anakin's universe, but that is it.

Nah... the return to Tatooine made sense in ROTJ. They went to Tatooine because of Han's problems with Jabba, which flow directly from what we learned in ANH.

I would have dumped Tatooine from the Prequels. There's no reason Anakin needs to be from Tatooine, other then the connection between Uncle Owen and Luke's father which is mentioned in ANH. But that could be explained in any number of ways without having to constantly return to Tatooine in every single movie.
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Eternal_Freedom
PostPosted: 2012-07-11 06:55pm 

Castellan


Joined: 2010-03-09 03:16pm
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It's hardly as if Obi-Wan's surname is unique to him. After all, he had a family which means there are a few others with Kenobi as a surname around on whatever planet he was from. There could well be a whole clan of them on some planet. In a galaxy of numberless trillions of beings, having the same surname as a Jedi is bound to happen.
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Ralin
PostPosted: 2012-07-11 09:41pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am
Posts: 1170
Havok wrote:
And again why would he KNOW their names? Tell me why would a galactic scale crime boss know the name of the nephew of a moisture farmer? Why would he know the name of a hermit that lives in isolation?


Generic Hutt-connected scuzball A bumps into Luke in Anchorhead or hears someone mention his name and goes, "Huh, wasn't Skywalker the name of that guy from the Clone Wars?" Generic Hutt-connected scuzball A later mentions this while at Jabba's court, or mentions it to someone who later repeats it in Jabba's presence. Jabba goes, "What a coincidence" and goes back to eating frogs or whatever the hell he does all day.

Generic Hutt-connected scuzball B hears in Anchorhead about crazy old Ben Kenobi who lives out in the Jutland Wastes and goes, "Huh, wasn't Kenobi the name of that guy from the Clone Wars?" Generic Hutt-connected scuzball B later mentions this while at Jabba's court, or mentions it to someone who later repeats it in Jabba's presence. Jabba remembers what Generic Hutt-connected scuzball A heard and goes, "Wait a second..." and decides to send someone to investigate, just in case.

And again, the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it clear that Anakin and Obi-wan were pretty damned famous by the end of the Clone Wars. Plus I was just double-checking my facts on Wookiepedia and it turns out that Jabba and Obi-wan had even met during that Clone Wars cartoon that I haven’t gotten around to watching yet.

Look, I’m not saying that this is a huge gaping plot hole and that discovery was inevitable, but it was a possibility and you have to admit that these are some pretty strange decisions by Obi-wan, given what was at stake and how little effort it would take to fix it. There really isn’t such a thing as being too careful when Darth Vader and the Emperor of the galaxy both know you’re still out there and want you dead.
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Elfdart
PostPosted: 2012-07-12 09:19am 

The Anti-Shep


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Ralin wrote:
Havok wrote:
And again why would he KNOW their names? Tell me why would a galactic scale crime boss know the name of the nephew of a moisture farmer? Why would he know the name of a hermit that lives in isolation?


Generic Hutt-connected scuzball A bumps into Luke in Anchorhead or hears someone mention his name and goes, "Huh, wasn't Skywalker the name of that guy from the Clone Wars?" Generic Hutt-connected scuzball A later mentions this while at Jabba's court, or mentions it to someone who later repeats it in Jabba's presence. Jabba goes, "What a coincidence" and goes back to eating frogs or whatever the hell he does all day.


Except that one thing that is well-known in the GFFA is that Jedi are celibate, and are cut off from their families. Even if someone did suspect that Luke might be related to Anakin somehow, they would assume that there's no connection between the two, except an accident of blood.

Quote:
Generic Hutt-connected scuzball B hears in Anchorhead about crazy old Ben Kenobi who lives out in the Jutland Wastes and goes, "Huh, wasn't Kenobi the name of that guy from the Clone Wars?" Generic Hutt-connected scuzball B later mentions this while at Jabba's court, or mentions it to someone who later repeats it in Jabba's presence. Jabba remembers what Generic Hutt-connected scuzball A heard and goes, "Wait a second..." and decides to send someone to investigate, just in case.


Maybe he did, and found nothing. It's not like Ben is advertising his address. He's holed up in the middle of nowhere which, for the Force-sensitive might be better for detecting interlopers than hiding in a city.

Quote:
Look, I’m not saying that this is a huge gaping plot hole and that discovery was inevitable, but it was a possibility and you have to admit that these are some pretty strange decisions by Obi-wan, given what was at stake and how little effort it would take to fix it. There really isn’t such a thing as being too careful when Darth Vader and the Emperor of the galaxy both know you’re still out there and want you dead.


In ROTS, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Bail Organa agree to split the kids up and see to it that they're raised in normal families (or as normal as you can get under those conditions). So apparently the idea is that whatever risk there might be in being discovered is worth it to place them with trustworthy families and have them raised like normal kids.
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Ralin
PostPosted: 2012-07-12 05:37pm 

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Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am
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Elfdart wrote:
Except that one thing that is well-known in the GFFA is that Jedi are celibate, and are cut off from their families. Even if someone did suspect that Luke might be related to Anakin somehow, they would assume that there's no connection between the two, except an accident of blood.


True, but people breaking vows of celibacy isn’t unheard of. And yeah, just hearing about someone named Skywalker would get written off as a coincidence, but hearing about a Skywalker and an Obi-wan is going to raise some alarms.

Quote:
Maybe he did, and found nothing. It's not like Ben is advertising his address. He's holed up in the middle of nowhere which, for the Force-sensitive might be better for detecting interlopers than hiding in a city.


It’s possible, and we don’t know how many people knew about crazy old Ben out in the desert, but do you really think it’s likely that he never made a trip into town for supplies or to catch up on the news in twenty years? Owen and Luke knew about him, and Luke wouldn’t have any reason not to mention his name to others. People gossip, especially when they live in a small community.

Quote:
In ROTS, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Bail Organa agree to split the kids up and see to it that they're raised in normal families (or as normal as you can get under those conditions). So apparently the idea is that whatever risk there might be in being discovered is worth it to place them with trustworthy families and have them raised like normal kids.


Yeah, and that's also fine. But why not get Owen and Beru to tell Luke he was their son and have him grow up as Luke Lars? Why didn’t Obi-wan change his name completely to Ben Sandrunner or whatever?

I’m not nerd-raging over this and it's not a big deal, but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either.
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Eternal_Freedom
PostPosted: 2012-07-12 05:50pm 

Castellan


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I'm fairly certain that Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader showed Obi-Wan in an Anchorhead or Mos Eisley tavern, a few months after the duel on Mustafar, and no one noticed or cared.
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2012-07-12 06:16pm 

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Guy remember that a)the Anakin&Padme romance wasn't common knowlage b)officially Anakin Skywalker died at Mustafar.

also I'm pretty sure that officially the Jedi master and memeber of the jedi high council Obi-Wan Kenobi is dead as well (I'm not 100% on that), thus there's no reason for a common thug (or even a crimeboss like Jabba) to assume that man with the surname Kenobi that happens to live as crazed hermit on Tattooine is nothing more then a man that's gone cabin crazy from living alone and happens to share a name with a dead jedi.

Tattooine is after all pretty the ass end of nowhere (or as Luke put it "if there's a bright center of the Galaxy, you're on the planet that's furthest from it") that happens be close enough to major trade routes that it can used as stopping point for smugglers and other small time freighters.
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