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Connor MacLeod wrote:The Rebellion in the EU came across the X-wing by the Rebellion smuggling out the senior design staff and the prototypes (the wiki says four, I've never heard of an exact number) and all the plans from under the Empire's nose. Basically Imperial Intel agencies suspected Incom's designers were disloyal and they fled before the Empire could take/execute them and/or the company could be Nationalized. This has been as far back as WEG goes. How this gets translated into 'steal all the X-wings' I have no fucking clue.

Now if you were going to complain about something, complain about the fact they apparently that all of the above happened precisely a year before yavin. I'm pretty sure the novels and radio drama have portrayed the fighters at Yavin as being far older than that.

It's fluff inconsistencies. The Rebels should not be fielding starfighters superior to Imperial standard issue.

In the film the X and Y-wings were described as snubfighters and the implication was that they weren't all that great. Shields were mentioned but nothing about hyperdrive. I think that made it into the canon from the RPG's. We only saw an X-Wing go FTL presumably in Empire. Then again, the Falcon without hyperdrive was able to make it to another star system unless we are to assume Bespin and Hoth orbit the same star.

The TIE fighter should have the advantage versus any Rebel fighter and the only Rebel advantage should be in chosing the time and place for ambush, achieving local superiority.

jollyreaper wrote:Shields were mentioned but nothing about hyperdrive. I think that made it into the canon from the RPG's.

I take it you didn't watch Return of the Jedi when all those Rebel fighters pretty clearly went into hyperspace ahead of the Rebel fleet?

Luke Skywalker wrote: I'm not so sure about this. What is wrong with having characters other than the protagonists actually matter?

That isn't really what I'm talking about, what I am talking about is the lack of creativity in inserting the authors original characters into the movies and then claiming that these new characters somehow influenced the events despite not being mentioned earlier. This isn't really something that can be objectively proved, it is simply a major annoyance of mine.
Note: the truly worst example of this isn't the novel Death Star, it is the short story about IG-88 and the second Death Star. Read here and be horrified: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Therefor ... e_of_IG-88

Luke Skywalker wrote:Actually, I would argue to the contrary. Yes, the Empire would have defeated the Vong invasion with ease (however, the Vong were aware of this; meaning that they may have waited for the Empire to grow weak), but then the galaxy would still be enslaved by a crazy old man. In the long run, the collapse of the Galactic Empire still benefited the galaxy in terms of net happiness and net suffering.

Oh...and without Luke and the Jedi, Abeloth would have easily conquered the galaxy. Just saying.

It is quite difficult to be happy and free of suffering if the world you are living on has just been destroyed by the Vong. Justifying one set of EU crap with another doesn't work very well either.

Luke Skywalker wrote: What? Since when does the act of having a padawan make you a master? Obi Wan was not a master in AotC.

He was frequently addressed as a Jedi master by other members of the order.

Connor MacLeod wrote:first off this is the 'Invalidate some EU' thread, not 'invalidate some canon' thread.

Aren't the movies the only source of canon?

Connor MacLeod wrote:Secondly if you're going to 'invalidate' anything, there's the issue that every single book in Star Wars has to involve some galaxy spanning threat or crisis that will topple, destroy, or otherwise plunge the galaxy or its government(s) into chaos cropping up every few months or few years. If there was one annoying thing about much of the EU from that period it was how each novel was some major catastrophe that had to be averted, which ends up making the New Republic look like it was run by the Three Stooges.

That really is what I was talking about, the NJO is merely the largest and worst executed example of it. Possibly exempting the KJA books.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Luke Skywalker wrote: What? Since when does the act of having a padawan make you a master? Obi Wan was not a master in AotC.

He was frequently addressed as a Jedi master by other members of the order.

Not in Attack of the Clones, he's not. He's promoted to Jedi Knight at the end of The Phantom Menace, takes Anakin as his Padawan, and stays that way throughout AoTC. Anakin calls him Master, as part of the Master/Apprentice relationship. Padme, Captain Typho, Count Dooku, and Palpatine call him "Master Jedi," or "Master Kenobi," but they aren't (current) members of the Jedi Order. Obi-Wan very clearly refers to Yoda and Mace Windu as Masters, but they address him as Obi-Wan. He doesn't sit on the Master's Council then, either. He's first seen sitting on the Council in Revenge of the Sith, and that's also when Yoda, Windu, and other members of the order start addressing him as Master Kenobi.

My only beef with the EU is that Lucas and his cronies declared that all rebels had plot armor and there must never be an Imperial victory. Sure you have advances and it looks like the New Republic is going to collapse...but it doesn't and the [insert Imperial commander leading the charge] gets killed and the Empire is once again on the retreat. I hate it.

Except...the New Republic does collapse? And the Imperial Remnant is still a stable galactic state well after it does so?

Yes, but the NR collapses because of the Vong invasion (urgh) rather than the Imperial campaign. Ultimately the Imperials can be said to win as their leader becomes Supreme Commander of the GA Defence Force.

Adamskywalker007 wrote: That isn't really what I'm talking about, what I am talking about is the lack of creativity in inserting the authors original characters into the movies and then claiming that these new characters somehow influenced the events despite not being mentioned earlier. This isn't really something that can be objectively proved, it is simply a major annoyance of mine.
Note: the truly worst example of this isn't the novel Death Star, it is the short story about IG-88 and the second Death Star. Read here and be horrified: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Therefor ... e_of_IG-88

Oh yes, the IG-88 fiasco was retarded. Of course, I haven't actually read the tale; so it might be a well written piece of fiction, but the premise sounds like a cheap attempt to tie in the author's mary sue character with the movies in order to give it importance.

But, in the case of Death Star, I think that all of the characters tied in well with the movie; that is, the idea that there are invisible players in the galactic scene that end up inadvertently shaping history is hardly unappealing.

It is quite difficult to be happy and free of suffering if the world you are living on has just been destroyed by the Vong. Justifying one set of EU crap with another doesn't work very well either.

Of course. But if you aren't a well off, human centric core planet in the Empire, chances are your people have already been sold off as slaves, or used as base delta zero targets to test the loyalty of new admirals (no really, I swear remembering this somewhere). The Yuuzhan Vong war was horrific, but would you rather have had the Allied nations openly surrender to Hitler without a fight? After all, it would reduce the loss of life in the short run; but that doesn't make it the right choice. It's why the ridiculous level of imperial apologists in the Star Wars community is sickening as hell.

He was frequently addressed as a Jedi master by other members of the order.

Yeah, as a formality. Anakin was mistakenly addressed as a "master Jedi" as well, even though it was obvious that he was far too young to have earned the rank.

RogueIce wrote:

jollyreaper wrote:Shields were mentioned but nothing about hyperdrive. I think that made it into the canon from the RPG's.

I take it you didn't watch Return of the Jedi when all those Rebel fighters pretty clearly went into hyperspace ahead of the Rebel fleet?

I phrased it poorly. Should have read "Did not see an X-Wing hit hyperspace until Empire." Of course we saw FTL X-Wings by ROTJ.

We never saw Vader's fighter go FTL and it was left unspoken as to how exactly he managed to escape capture by the Rebels.