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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

Dawn of the Jedi thread

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Guardsman Bass
PostPosted: 2012-05-09 10:07am 

Cowardly Codfish


Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Posts: 8629
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea
A better way to explain it would be that the Empire cracked down and heavily censored the news of and any information related to the Jedi, portraying them as a strange religious cult that no longer existed. The older generations who had actually seen news on Jedi (or occasionally seen Jedi in person) would know better, but they also wouldn't say anything out of fear of retaliation. The younger generations (like Han) who would have never known Jedi or news of them would just blow it all off as exaggeration.
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Abacus
PostPosted: 2012-05-09 01:54pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm
Posts: 162
Havok wrote:
You're an idiot.

You are comparing a single isolated incident on one day, in one country, on one planet to literally millions of accounts for over 10,000 years in an entire civilized galaxy.

Come the fuck on.


1) You're flaming.

2) The Tienanmen Square incident was the focal point for what was a seven week long time period of protests across all of China, not just within Beijing. Hundreds of protests broke out across China and were put down using the PLA. A media black out was instituted in the wake of the events, with only televised executions of "rebels and dissidents". In the wake of these 1989 protests even the mentioning of Tienanmen Square incident could get you arrested and detained for an unspecific amount of time.

3) You're underestimating the ability of an authoritarian galaxy-wide government that had unlimited resources, strong popular support (at the beginning) from the masses, and the ability to warp the media to its own ends. The Galactic Empire could and did take tremendous efforts to erase all relics, monuments, or histories concerning the Jedi Order. In a period of time when it was "impolitic" to even mention the word "Jedi" within hearing of an Imperial loyalist for fear of being detained, it isn't surprising that even the oral history of the Jedi within the collective memory of the galaxy would be suppressed.

I believe that I can accuse you of being a minimalist in this regard, Havok, to believing that the GE couldn't pull this off. Which is did. Canonically.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Je ... #Aftermath
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-05-09 11:13pm 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12656
Location: Oakland CA
Abacus wrote:
Havok wrote:
You're an idiot.

You are comparing a single isolated incident on one day, in one country, on one planet to literally millions of accounts for over 10,000 years in an entire civilized galaxy.

Come the fuck on.


1) You're flaming.
So? You are being fucking stupid.

Quote:
2) The Tienanmen Square incident was the focal point for what was a seven week long time period of protests across all of China, not just within Beijing. Hundreds of protests broke out across China and were put down using the PLA. A media black out was instituted in the wake of the events, with only televised executions of "rebels and dissidents". In the wake of these 1989 protests even the mentioning of Tienanmen Square incident could get you arrested and detained for an unspecific amount of time.

OK, fine 7 weeks. Do you honestly think that challenges my point at all.

And prove that it has been erased from memory, and it's not just that people are terrified to speak about it, as you yourself point out.

Quote:
3) You're underestimating the ability of an authoritarian galaxy-wide government that had unlimited resources, strong popular support (at the beginning) from the masses, and the ability to warp the media to its own ends. The Galactic Empire could and did take tremendous efforts to erase all relics, monuments, or histories concerning the Jedi Order. In a period of time when it was "impolitic" to even mention the word "Jedi" within hearing of an Imperial loyalist for fear of being detained, it isn't surprising that even the oral history of the Jedi within the collective memory of the galaxy would be suppressed.

I believe that I can accuse you of being a minimalist in this regard, Havok, to believing that the GE couldn't pull this off. Which is did. Canonically.

I'm a minimalist? I site 10,000 generations of history in an entire populated galaxy vs your 7 weeks on one planet. :lol:

And you are ascertaining that the GE could in 30 years, undue thousands of years of history, not just history, but glorified history... someone should be accused of something, but it ain't minimalism, and it ain't me. :lol:

Quote:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Jedi_Purge#Aftermath
That's a nice link that says nothing about the effectiveness of the Purge. Try again.
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Darth Nostril
PostPosted: 2012-05-11 03:33pm 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2008-04-25 02:46pm
Posts: 745
Location: Get off my lawn
The thing is Hav the Empire did manage to do it in only eighteen years, that unfortunately is highest canon.
The way I reconcile it is starting with Palpatines speech where he blamed the alleged attempted Jedi coup for his disfigurement laying the groundwork, discrediting the Jedi, followed by nearly two decades of intensive propoganda and brutal crackdowns on dissenters. The average Joe became afraid to even speak the word Jedi whatever his personal beliefs lest he get disappeared like Wog Tiffle down the street did last month.
As for someone like Han, well according to early EU (ie back when it was fun and not total shite written by literary wannabes) he was an Imperial officer before rescuing Chewie and turning to a life of crime, he would have been exposed to intensive conditioning to regard the Force and Jedi as mystical garbage. Disregarding all EU then he was a rogue and a criminal on the outskirts of civilization and not fully conversant on what the Jedi really were.
It's not perfect but it does make the Prequels ever so slightly less crap when I rewatch them.

Alternative is Wankatine Dark-Side-Shrouded the entire galactic population to believe his spiel.
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Sir Sirius
PostPosted: 2012-05-11 05:06pm 

Sith Devotee


Joined: 2002-12-09 01:15pm
Posts: 2954
Location: 6 hr 45 min R.A. and -16 degrees 43 minutes declination
Yeah, but the problem is it that makes no sense for the Empire to attempt to erase the Jedi from recollection. Discrediting them in your propaganda is one one thing, but to just wiping them from memory is quite another. You can not both discredit the Jedi and erase all knowledge of them.

Palpatine prominently used the "Jedi rebellion" to justify the formation of the Galactic Empire under a new constitution and to solidify his own position as it's head of state in addressing the Senate. By attempting to erase the Jedi from recollection he would be directly contradicting himself; in the most important public address he had ever made no less. As well as undermining the legitimacy of the of the Galactic Empire as a whole. For the Empire to attempt to debunk the Jedi would be akin to the Nazis attempting to debunk the November Criminals of the Stab-in-the-back myth after having prominently featured them in their own propaganda. There just is nothing to gain by trying to suppress knowledge of the Jedi, in fact the Emperor stands to lose a great deal credibility by doing so. The whole affair just makes no sense.

And while the Jedi may have been few in numbers, their significance (going by the EU at least) to the history of the Republic and galaxy has been so substantial that they would have been included in every history curriculum of every school in the Republic. Trying to wipe the Jedi from memory galaxy wide in scant two decades would be about as easy as trying to erase all knowledge of the Founding Fathers in the US by 2030. Incidentally the Founding Fathers were few in number too, yet they are very widely known in the US.
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Abacus
PostPosted: 2012-05-11 05:09pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm
Posts: 162
Havok wrote:
So? You are being fucking stupid.


I guess this is where I'm suppose to insult you back, but instead I'm just going to photo-copy my hand flipping you the bird.


Quote:
OK, fine 7 weeks. Do you honestly think that challenges my point at all.

And prove that it has been erased from memory, and it's not just that people are terrified to speak about it, as you yourself point out.


It has been erased from memory, because the younger generation don't know it ever happened. Absence of knowledge, aka erased. How do I know? Because I deal with foreign exchange students from China all the time at my local university. I ask them if they recognize the term, and so far 100% of them (several hundreds over the course of a decade) have said they don't know what I mean by the "Tienanmen Square Massacre".

Quote:
I'm a minimalist? I site 10,000 generations of history in an entire populated galaxy vs your 7 weeks on one planet. :lol:

And you are ascertaining that the GE could in 30 years, undue thousands of years of history, not just history, but glorified history... someone should be accused of something, but it ain't minimalism, and it ain't me. :lol:


"10,000 Generations of history in an entire populated galaxy"? You somehow assume that Jedi traveled to every fucking planet in the SW galaxy? That every little kid grew up thinking that if something bad happened, the Jedi would save them? To use a parallel analogy, I'll quote the following:

Quote:
"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."
―Captain Thrawn, to Tash Arranda


People throughout the entire galaxy would not ALL have heard about the Jedi, and less than 1% of those worlds ever had a Jedi step onto their terra firma. Also, throughout the course of those 10,000 years you mention, a lot of knowledge will have been lost. People that lived during the Clone Wars wouldn't have known who the fuck Darth Revan was or who Lord Hoth was, etc. The only place you might find such ancient and long-term information would be the Jedi Archives, which was fucking restricted to members of the Jedi Order.

"Glorified" history? If you mean the media presentation of "sensationalism" in delivering their news, then you might have a point...oh wait, the next sensational story comes along and everyone forgets the last one. As if the world at large in "a galaxy far, far away" is no less afflicted to short-sightedness or short-term memory than our own is absurd. The sensational stories of the Clone Wars would have been supplanted by the story of the "Jedi Rebellion" and their attempt to overthrow the Senate and kill Palpatine (as he canonically spun it). By propaganda and authoritarian control, anything can happen.

Quote:
That's a nice link that says nothing about the effectiveness of the Purge. Try again.


You're obviously an obtuse, blind, G.E.D. type of fellow, so I won't attempt to point out how much of a bigger idiot you can become. It's obvious you've maxed out on those personality traits - sorry - flaws. It would seem that you are incapable of following another persons argument in any coherent fashion.

Also, you've once again polluted another thread by going off topic. To paraphrase one of my favorite movie quotes of all time: "Mr. Havok, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
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Abacus
PostPosted: 2012-05-11 05:22pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm
Posts: 162
Sir Sirius wrote:
Yeah, but the problem is it that makes no sense for the Empire to attempt to erase the Jedi from recollection. Discrediting them in your propaganda is one one thing, but to just wiping them from memory is quite another. You can not both discredit the Jedi and erase all knowledge of them.


The purpose in erasing them from common knowledge is so that they cannot be used as a rallying point for Imperial opposition forces. If there are older people that can given details about the Jedi before the Imperial Propaganda took root, then that poses a problem with the younger generation suddenly asking questions about these two different view points. Far easier to simply wipe it out than have a remnant exist to someday come back to haunt you.

Quote:
Palpatine prominently used the "Jedi rebellion" to justify the formation of the Galactic Empire under a new constitution and to solidify his own position as it's head of state in addressing the Senate.


Actually it would be the entire Separatist Crisis that he used as justification to form the GE. The Jedi Rebellion was simply icing on the cake, so to speak, in achieving his purposes of becoming emperor and destroying the Jedi Order at the same time.

Quote:
By attempting to erase the Jedi from recollection he would be directly contradicting himself; in the most important public address he had ever made no less. As well as undermining the legitimacy of the of the Galactic Empire as a whole. For the Empire to attempt to debunk the Jedi would be akin to the Nazis attempting to debunk the November Criminals of the Stab-in-the-back myth after having prominently featured them in their own propaganda. There just is nothing to gain by trying to suppress knowledge of the Jedi, in fact the Emperor stands to lose a great deal credibility by doing so. The whole affair just makes no sense.


You can't really compare the November Criminals and the other Nazi history parts to the assumption of power by Palpatine and his destruction of the Jedi physically and later memory. The November Criminals were German nationals that were attempting to end the First World War before Germany lost in totality. The Jedi Order were loyal followers of the Republic, but attempted to kill Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord, not simply because he was a Chancellor attempting to become an emperor. There are plenty of EU examples of the Jedi staying out of Republic government even if that government is fairly authoritarian. They step in when the Sith are involved.

As such, the Jedi were a moral threat to Palpatine's order. They could destabilize his regime, as I posted above, by being avatars of "Justice" or rallying Imperial opposition (which happened with Luke being the poster boy for the New Republic and its efforts to revitalize the Jedi Order). It was not just a matter of eliminating the memory of the Jedi and their being the exemplars of truth and justice, but to supplant that position and put the Empire in its place. The New Order was suppose to represent a change from the corruption and decadence that was the Old Republic. By smearing and then later eliminating the Jedi Order who were its chief advocates, the Emperor was cleverly changing the collective galactic memory to suit his own ends.

Quote:
And while the Jedi may have been few in numbers, their significance (going by the EU at least) to the history of the Republic and galaxy has been so substantial that they would have been included in every history curriculum of every school in the Republic. Trying to wipe the Jedi from memory galaxy wide in scant two decades would be about as easy as trying to erase all knowledge of the Founding Fathers in the US by 2030. Incidentally the Founding Fathers were few in number too, yet they are very widely known in the US.


Again, you are underestimating the abilities and resources at the beck and call of authoritarian regimes that are ready and willing to use violence to enforce their regime's policies. All that possible history or curriculum would have been thrown away and tarnished in light of the "Jedi Rebellion". It's because Palpatine had such a strong grasp of the use of propaganda that helped to cement his own power and that of the rather smooth transition of regime change from Old Republic to Galactic Empire.
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Sir Sirius
PostPosted: 2012-05-11 06:27pm 

Sith Devotee


Joined: 2002-12-09 01:15pm
Posts: 2954
Location: 6 hr 45 min R.A. and -16 degrees 43 minutes declination
Abacus wrote:
The purpose in erasing them from common knowledge is so that they cannot be used as a rallying point for Imperial opposition forces. If there are older people that can given details about the Jedi before the Imperial Propaganda took root, then that poses a problem with the younger generation suddenly asking questions about these two different view points. Far easier to simply wipe it out than have a remnant exist to someday come back to haunt you.

The problem is that the Galactic Empire can not claim that the Jedi do not exist and never existed after the Emperor himself used the Jedi and their "rebellion" as a justification for the birth of the Empire in what was basically his inaugural speech. Yes, the memory of the Jedi might be inconvenient, but you just can not play the Jedi as trump card on your road to power one day and claim that they never even existed the next.

Quote:
Actually it would be the entire Separatist Crisis that he used as justification to form the GE. The Jedi Rebellion was simply icing on the cake, so to speak, in achieving his purposes of becoming emperor and destroying the Jedi Order at the same time.

From the ROTS script:
"176 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMBER-SUNSET
The Chancellor is in the podium in the center of the vast arena giving a speech. MAS AMEDDA stands to the right of SIDIOUS. BAIL ORGANA walks through the hallway of the Main Senate Chamber. He enters the Senate Pod of Naboo and sits next to PADME. JAR JAR, CAPTAIN TYPHO and TWO HANDMAIDENS are in the pod also.
PALPATINE: . . . and the Jedi Rebellion has been foiled.
BAIL ORGANA: I was held up. What's happening?
PADME: The Chancellor has been elaborating on a plot by the Jedi, to overthrow the Senate.
BAIL ORGANA: That's not true!
PADME: He's been presenting evidence all afternoon.
BAIL ORGANA: And the Senate will go along with it, just like they always do.
PALPATINE: The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated. (applause) Any collaborators will suffer the same fate.
(applause)
These have been trying times, but we have passed the test. "


The Emperor himself spent a whole afternoon presenting evidence of the Jedi rebellion and their "assassination" attempt. That is rather more then just a "icing on the cake". Not to mention that the effect the "attempt" on his life had, by his own words, on his very appearance. When he blamed the Jedi for his new looks he turned himself in to walking talking evidence of the Jedi existence in front of the whole senate.

Quote:
You can't really compare the November Criminals and the other Nazi history parts to the assumption of power by Palpatine and his destruction of the Jedi physically and later memory. The November Criminals were German nationals that were attempting to end the First World War before Germany lost in totality. The Jedi Order were loyal followers of the Republic, but attempted to kill Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord, not simply because he was a Chancellor attempting to become an emperor. There are plenty of EU examples of the Jedi staying out of Republic government even if that government is fairly authoritarian. They step in when the Sith are involved.

You've missed the point completely. The similarity between the two is that the Nazis prominently used the November Criminals in their propaganda as they were trying to rise to power, just as the Emperor did with the Jedi in his address to the Senate. By attempting to erase knowledge of the Jedi he would be directly contradicting himself and his own justification for assuming power.

BTW there is crucial differences between the Jedi and the Tiananmen Square protests. Chinese government never featured the Tiananmen Square protests prominently in their own propaganda as a justification for their regime, while the Emperor did just that to the Jedi. The Tiananmen Square protests haven't been included in every history curriculum in China for generations, whereas the Jedi, owing to their significance, would have been.

Quote:
As such, the Jedi were a moral threat to Palpatine's order. They could destabilize his regime, as I posted above, by being avatars of "Justice" or rallying Imperial opposition (which happened with Luke being the poster boy for the New Republic and its efforts to revitalize the Jedi Order). It was not just a matter of eliminating the memory of the Jedi and their being the exemplars of truth and justice, but to supplant that position and put the Empire in its place. The New Order was suppose to represent a change from the corruption and decadence that was the Old Republic. By smearing and then later eliminating the Jedi Order who were its chief advocates, the Emperor was cleverly changing the collective galactic memory to suit his own ends.

Don't you see? What ever your motivation you can not both smear the Jedi and claim that they never existed. The two acts are in direct conflict with one another.

Quote:
Again, you are underestimating the abilities and resources at the beck and call of authoritarian regimes that are ready and willing to use violence to enforce their regime's policies. All that possible history or curriculum would have been thrown away and tarnished in light of the "Jedi Rebellion". It's because Palpatine had such a strong grasp of the use of propaganda that helped to cement his own power and that of the rather smooth transition of regime change from Old Republic to Galactic Empire.

How on earth is the Empire going to succeed in erasing the Jedi from memory in just two decades when they are still in living memory to the vast majority of the population? What exactly are these "abilities and resources" that an authoritarian regime could use to accomplish this, the impossible? The mechanisms for achieving something this momentous really calls for a detailed explanation. And again, you can not use the Jedi rebellion to tarnish the history of the Jedi and to eradicate all knowledge of the Jedi. For there to have been a Jedi rebellion there must have been Jedi, for the Empire to claim otherwise would be absurd to all.

Suppressing all knowledge of the Jedi in just two decades galaxy wide is no more believable then succeeding in erasing all knowledge of the Founding Fathers in the US by 2030. It just can not be done.
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Abacus
PostPosted: 2012-05-11 11:49pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm
Posts: 162
Sir Sirius wrote:
The problem is that the Galactic Empire can not claim that the Jedi do not exist and never existed after the Emperor himself used the Jedi and their "rebellion" as a justification for the birth of the Empire in what was basically his inaugural speech. Yes, the memory of the Jedi might be inconvenient, but you just can not play the Jedi as trump card on your road to power one day and claim that they never even existed the next.


I did not say that the GE could claim that the Jedi no longer exist, simply that they would eventually be erased from the galaxy's collective memory. If enough people stop speaking about a subject, writing about it, exchanging ideas about it, or otherwise recording the history of a subject...then that subject will eventually cease to exist in as much as ideas, people, or organizations can be. Not physically or to presume that they never happened, but simply that because no one will remember them. That is what I mean.


Quote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
From the ROTS script:
"176 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMBER-SUNSET
The Chancellor is in the podium in the center of the vast arena giving a speech. MAS AMEDDA stands to the right of SIDIOUS. BAIL ORGANA walks through the hallway of the Main Senate Chamber. He enters the Senate Pod of Naboo and sits next to PADME. JAR JAR, CAPTAIN TYPHO and TWO HANDMAIDENS are in the pod also.
PALPATINE: . . . and the Jedi Rebellion has been foiled.
BAIL ORGANA: I was held up. What's happening?
PADME: The Chancellor has been elaborating on a plot by the Jedi, to overthrow the Senate.
BAIL ORGANA: That's not true!
PADME: He's been presenting evidence all afternoon.
BAIL ORGANA: And the Senate will go along with it, just like they always do.
PALPATINE: The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated. (applause) Any collaborators will suffer the same fate.
(applause)
These have been trying times, but we have passed the test. "


The Emperor himself spent a whole afternoon presenting evidence of the Jedi rebellion and their "assassination" attempt. That is rather more then just a "icing on the cake". Not to mention that the effect the "attempt" on his life had, by his own words, on his very appearance. When he blamed the Jedi for his new looks he turned himself in to walking talking evidence of the Jedi existence in front of the whole senate.


The Jedi Rebellion was the icing on the cake. By the time Mace Windu entered Palpatine's office to place him under arrest, the Chancellor already had all the powers of a dictator or emperor, except the name. He had already received numerous emergency powers, had already instituted the Sector Governance Decree that was to form the bureaucratic basis for the future Empire, and had throughout the Clone Wars placed politically reliable supporters in the most vital parts of the government. All of this happening over the course of the Clone Wars, not within the span of a few days that it took to declare the Jedi as traitors and issue Order 66. So yes, it was the icing on the cake. It wrapped up the last bit of true opposition to his rule and cemented his position as Emperor.


Quote:
You've missed the point completely. The similarity between the two is that the Nazis prominently used the November Criminals in their propaganda as they were trying to rise to power, just as the Emperor did with the Jedi in his address to the Senate. By attempting to erase knowledge of the Jedi he would be directly contradicting himself and his own justification for assuming power.

BTW there is crucial differences between the Jedi and the Tiananmen Square protests. Chinese government never featured the Tiananmen Square protests prominently in their own propaganda as a justification for their regime, while the Emperor did just that to the Jedi. The Tiananmen Square protests haven't been included in every history curriculum in China for generations, whereas the Jedi, owing to their significance, would have been.


The Jedi Order was not used by the Emperor as justification for the creation of the Galactic Empire. The Old Republic and the Separatist Crisis was what did that. The Jedi Rebellion was simply a legal pretext to eliminating the Jedi without a major uproar. Its one thing to suppress a rebellion with (admittedly fake) documentation showing that an assassination was attempted, as compared to simply killing off the Jedi because their dogma won't allow the Sith to take any form of power.

And you've missed my point about pointing out the Tienanmen Square incident. The Chinese government legitimacy was not at stake because of these protests. They were fearful that the protests could foment into a revolution against the CCP. The point I was making about the Tienanmen Square incident was that it was effectively removed from the collective memory of the Chinese people and is actively being suppressed by the Chinese government in order to forestall the creation of any opposition to their government.


Quote:
Don't you see? What ever your motivation you can not both smear the Jedi and claim that they never existed. The two acts are in direct conflict with one another.


Again, as I clarified above, this isn't about instant non-existence. And the smear campaign would have been a small localized incident within a short period of time, using it to further cement Palpatine's already significant power and position. Once his position is secure, he would then move on to other things, furthering the eventual elimination of the Jedi Order from collective memory.

Quote:
How on earth is the Empire going to succeed in erasing the Jedi from memory in just two decades when they are still in living memory to the vast majority of the population? What exactly are these "abilities and resources" that an authoritarian regime could use to accomplish this, the impossible? The mechanisms for achieving something this momentous really calls for a detailed explanation. And again, you can not use the Jedi rebellion to tarnish the history of the Jedi and to eradicate all knowledge of the Jedi. For there to have been a Jedi rebellion there must have been Jedi, for the Empire to claim otherwise would be absurd to all.


Fear. Fear of reprisals from loyalist neighbors. Fear of military occupation or invasion. Fear of having one's children excluded from promising futures as a result of a parent's misstep or actions. Fear of being arrested. Fear of being shot. I could go on.

An authoritarian regime has no one to hold them accountable, especially not when they control all media outlets and forms of interstellar communication. As such they can used military and police assets in direct applications to suppress dissent using any means necessary. Such as when Tarkin smashed the protestors at the Ghorman Massacre. After that there was no longer any political dissent in the area. His entire political ideology dealt with the application of fear as a tool for absolute government, fear being the end-all-be-all. In that sense he was an excellent student of Machiavelli.

So let's set the scenario, shall we?

You are a civilian living on Coruscant. You've lived in the shadow of the Jedi Temple for years, probably even spoken to a few Jedi over the years. You live through the decadent era prior to the outbreak of the Clone Wars and want the Republic to change for the better. A new Chancellor is elected, promising to end the corruption. You like him and the vast majority of galactic citizenry do too. He does a good job of going after corruption groups and tax-dodging corporations, but is hampered by various methods from within the Galactic Senate and major trade magnates. You and others call for those blocking these anti-corruption moves and new tax laws to be censured, after all they are standing in the way of progress.

Then the Separatist movement starts. Star Systems no longer trust the Republic to represent them and feel that they might be better in a different government. These separatists are led by an ex-Jedi! Count Dooku, charismatic and powerful. The holonews is filled with images of Trade Federation battle droids and reporters re-run stories on the Trade Federation's blockade on Naboo that happened not too long ago. Things seem to be reaching a pitch, and then the war starts.

Naturally, as a Republic loyalist, you support the Chancellor and his efforts to streamline the war effort. If order is to be restored, you feel happy to give up a few freedoms. So what if a few new clone troopers show up with checkpoints that you have to go through on the way to work. So long as it means a few more Sepis will potentially get captured, then so much the better.

More and more steps are taken. More power is voted by the Senate into the hands of the Chancellor. Why not? He's like a gentlemanly grandfather figure, helping to guide the war to a swift end. You feel you can trust him.

Suddenly, just when the war seems won, the Jedi perpetrate an assassination attempt upon the Chancellor. The powerful beings that had always been there seemingly for good have suddenly turned on everything you know and trust. They even scarred the Chancellor, physically harming him! The holonews is suddenly filled with stories of how evil and horrible the Jedi had become, corrupt and decadent like the old Republic before Palpatine became Chancellor. He announces the creation of a new Empire! You see this bright future of progress and order, where people don't have to fear war. You acquiesce to this regime change, and on some level you might even support it.

A year later you go to work and hear that one of the guys you worked with was arrested for speaking out in support of the Jedi. Everyone quietly calls him a fool and go on with work. A few months pass and that arrested worker reappears, his mind apparently changed and a fervent supporter of the New Order.

You begin to hear other stories, people being arrested, some never being seen again. Stormtroopers become a regular sight on Imperial Center, the new name of your planet, and anyone could possibly be an undercover ISB agent. You begin to talk less and less about your experience with the Jedi, be they good or bad. It isn't wise to get attention.

You get married and have kids. It's been ten years since the end of the Clone Wars and the oppression of the Empire is now complete. Your neighbors were hauled off weeks ago, you assume for political dissidence. You want your son and daughter to attend a prestigious school, so you omit some things about your past life. You feign ignorance and lack of knowledge. You don't want them to say the wrong thing in front of the wrong person and get carted off to disappear. So you remain silent, you don't speak, you desire to forget.

You die. Your children live on. They never knew what you knew. They never grew up knowing what a Jedi was, except as an old term for rebels and dissidents.


That is how easily it can and has happened, historically. Memories can be suppressed, sometimes at the behest of the person with the memory without an external impetus. Fearing for ones life and those of ones offspring can and is a strong motivator.

Quote:
Suppressing all knowledge of the Jedi in just two decades galaxy wide is no more believable then succeeding in erasing all knowledge of the Founding Fathers in the US by 2030. It just can not be done.


For the United States' sake, I hope so.
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Sir Sirius
PostPosted: 2012-05-12 04:43am 

Sith Devotee


Joined: 2002-12-09 01:15pm
Posts: 2954
Location: 6 hr 45 min R.A. and -16 degrees 43 minutes declination
Abacus wrote:
I did not say that the GE could claim that the Jedi no longer exist, simply that they would eventually be erased from the galaxy's collective memory. If enough people stop speaking about a subject, writing about it, exchanging ideas about it, or otherwise recording the history of a subject...then that subject will eventually cease to exist in as much as ideas, people, or organizations can be. Not physically or to presume that they never happened, but simply that because no one will remember them. That is what I mean.

But that is the problem, the Jedi simply could not be erased from collective memory in scant twenty years.

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The Jedi Rebellion was the icing on the cake. By the time Mace Windu entered Palpatine's office to place him under arrest, the Chancellor already had all the powers of a dictator or emperor, except the name. He had already received numerous emergency powers, had already instituted the Sector Governance Decree that was to form the bureaucratic basis for the future Empire, and had throughout the Clone Wars placed politically reliable supporters in the most vital parts of the government. All of this happening over the course of the Clone Wars, not within the span of a few days that it took to declare the Jedi as traitors and issue Order 66. So yes, it was the icing on the cake. It wrapped up the last bit of true opposition to his rule and cemented his position as Emperor.

Palpatine himself spent an afternoon, the vast majority of the speech in which he announced the creation of a new constitution and the birth of the Empire, talking about the Jedi and their rebellion. This is far more then just "icing on the cake" in his own narrative for the birth of the empire.

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The Jedi Order was not used by the Emperor as justification for the creation of the Galactic Empire. The Old Republic and the Separatist Crisis was what did that. The Jedi Rebellion was simply a legal pretext to eliminating the Jedi without a major uproar. Its one thing to suppress a rebellion with (admittedly fake) documentation showing that an assassination was attempted, as compared to simply killing off the Jedi because their dogma won't allow the Sith to take any form of power.

Doh! Of course the Jedi order was not used as justification, the "Jedi rebellion" was. You even explained how it was used in the paragraph above.

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And you've missed my point about pointing out the Tienanmen Square incident. The Chinese government legitimacy was not at stake because of these protests. They were fearful that the protests could foment into a revolution against the CCP. The point I was making about the Tienanmen Square incident was that it was effectively removed from the collective memory of the Chinese people and is actively being suppressed by the Chinese government in order to forestall the creation of any opposition to their government.

I'm well aware of that, it just isn't germane to this discussion. The Founding Fathers (for their importance to historical narrative of the US to the population) and the November Criminals (for their prominent use in Nazi propaganda) are far better examples of how silly trying to erase the Jedi from recollection would be for the Empire.

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Again, as I clarified above, this isn't about instant non-existence. And the smear campaign would have been a small localized incident within a short period of time, using it to further cement Palpatine's already significant power and position. Once his position is secure, he would then move on to other things, furthering the eventual elimination of the Jedi Order from collective memory.

Except that not only is doing that in mere two decades is simply impossible, it is in fact counter productive to his own goals. Tarnishing the memory of the Jedi as rebels and assassins, which he in fact did do in ROTS, is fine. But to try to erase the memory of the Jedi after having spent an afternoon talking about in front of the entire senate? He would simply make an ass of himself in the effort.

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Fear. Fear of reprisals from loyalist neighbors. Fear of military occupation or invasion. Fear of having one's children excluded from promising futures as a result of a parent's misstep or actions. Fear of being arrested. Fear of being shot. I could go on.

An authoritarian regime has no one to hold them accountable, especially not when they control all media outlets and forms of interstellar communication. As such they can used military and police assets in direct applications to suppress dissent using any means necessary. Such as when Tarkin smashed the protestors at the Ghorman Massacre. After that there was no longer any political dissent in the area. His entire political ideology dealt with the application of fear as a tool for absolute government, fear being the end-all-be-all. In that sense he was an excellent student of Machiavelli.

So let's set the scenario, shall we?

You are a civilian living on Coruscant.

[snipped for brevity]

You die. Your children live on. They never knew what you knew. They never grew up knowing what a Jedi was, except as an old term for rebels and dissidents.

Your time-line is off, we are not talking about the Jedi being forgotten over a period of generations, but over twenty years. Secondly, the Jedi were so important to the galactic history for so long that they would form an integral part of the narrative of the galactic history to the entire population of the Republic. They would have been mentioned in every history book, everyone would have know of them, countless news reports would have mentioned them etc. etc. etc. It is simply not possible to rewrite the historical and cultural narrative of an entire civilization in mere twenty years. There are limits to what edicts even the most ruthless tyranny can enforce.

Thirdly, the Empire was unable to prevent the formation of a armed uprising involving whole star systems and with fleets of warships at it's disposal, yet you wish us to belief that they were able to both brainwash every single citizen everywhere and rewrite every single history book and holorecording everywhere along with countless other media discussing the Jedi in just twenty years? Because that is what it would take to wipe the Jedi from memory in twenty years. The empire fell to internal dissidents, it was hardly a nigh omnipotent tyranny able dictate the beliefs and memories of it's citizenry at will as you would have us belief.

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That is how easily it can and has happened, historically. Memories can be suppressed, sometimes at the behest of the person with the memory without an external impetus. Fearing for ones life and those of ones offspring can and is a strong motivator.

No it hasn't!

Name one singular incident in which a group that has was as widely known and well respected as the Jedi were for generation being totally erased from the collective memory of an entire technologically advanced civilization in mere two decades. Name just one single incident I will concede this argument.

Name just one!

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For the United States' sake, I hope so.

Honestly, I am rather starting to think that you haven't thought this through in the least.
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Abacus
PostPosted: 2012-05-12 09:53am 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm
Posts: 162
I have a bachelors in Political Science and am working through a Masters in Strategic East Asian Studies. I know how regimes are created and how they fall. I've even sneakily put Star Wars within a few of my papers in the past using Palpatine as an example. Believe me when I say that I know what I'm speaking about. If you don't agree, then thats ok. We'll just agree to disagree.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-05-15 12:53am 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12656
Location: Oakland CA
Abacus wrote:
Havok wrote:
So? You are being fucking stupid.


I guess this is where I'm suppose to insult you back, but instead I'm just going to photo-copy my hand flipping you the bird.
:lol: What's the difference retard?


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OK, fine 7 weeks. Do you honestly think that challenges my point at all.

And prove that it has been erased from memory, and it's not just that people are terrified to speak about it, as you yourself point out.


It has been erased from memory, because the younger generation don't know it ever happened. Absence of knowledge, aka erased. How do I know? Because I deal with foreign exchange students from China all the time at my local university. I ask them if they recognize the term, and so far 100% of them (several hundreds over the course of a decade) have said they don't know what I mean by the "Tienanmen Square Massacre".

So your definition of "erased" is "no longer taught"? :lol:
Nice anecdote you are using as "evidence" there too.
Sorry, but "erased" from memory, means ALL memory. Not just children haven't been told about it yet. And FUCKING AGAIN stupid ass, you are talking about ONE SINGLE INCIDENT in ONE COUNTRY on ONE PLANET. Last time I checked, the Jedi did manage to get around in their TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF EXISTENCE.

If the argument was "The Empire suppressed and erased all knowledge of the Jedi from the lower continent on planet Abacusisaretard." then your point, with all it's anecdotal evidence MIGHT hold water. Even then you have ZERO evidence, nor could you even ever provide it, that noone, not just children, which is your assertion in this thread, in China remembers or knows about TS.

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I'm a minimalist? I site 10,000 generations of history in an entire populated galaxy vs your 7 weeks on one planet. :lol:

And you are ascertaining that the GE could in 30 years, undue thousands of years of history, not just history, but glorified history... someone should be accused of something, but it ain't minimalism, and it ain't me. :lol:


"10,000 Generations of history in an entire populated galaxy"? You somehow assume that Jedi traveled to every fucking planet in the SW galaxy? That every little kid grew up thinking that if something bad happened, the Jedi would save them? To use a parallel analogy, I'll quote the following:

Wow what a leap of fucking logic that just was. Point out where I ever even insinuated that you dishonest piece of shit?

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"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."
―Captain Thrawn, to Tash Arranda
Thrawn quotes shocking.
Again dill fucking hole. Jedi were dispatched at the behest of the fucking Chancellor of the galaxy. Not knowing about Jedi, regardless of what you believed about their abilities, is akin to not knowing about the Chancellor of the Galactic Senate.

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People throughout the entire galaxy would not ALL have heard about the Jedi, and less than 1% of those worlds ever had a Jedi step onto their terra firma. Also, throughout the course of those 10,000 years you mention, a lot of knowledge will have been lost. People that lived during the Clone Wars wouldn't have known who the fuck Darth Revan was or who Lord Hoth was, etc. The only place you might find such ancient and long-term information would be the Jedi Archives, which was fucking restricted to members of the Jedi Order.
Your are right. Over 10,000 years, individual people and names might be forgotten. In 30 years the name of a group of people that were intertwined not only in the galactic politics of the previous government, but were KEY, PUBLIC players in the creation of the Empire that Palpatine ACKNOWLEDGES in his "FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE!" speech would not be.

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"Glorified" history? If you mean the media presentation of "sensationalism" in delivering their news, then you might have a point...oh wait, the next sensational story comes along and everyone forgets the last one. As if the world at large in "a galaxy far, far away" is no less afflicted to short-sightedness or short-term memory than our own is absurd. The sensational stories of the Clone Wars would have been supplanted by the story of the "Jedi Rebellion" and their attempt to overthrow the Senate and kill Palpatine (as he canonically spun it). By propaganda and authoritarian control, anything can happen.
Oh man, so the Star Wars galaxy must have our short attention spans, but can't possibly have, you know a million books, videos, websites, stories that talk about the Jedi like we would... oh wait... do. :lol: I referred to this before, and since you want to invoke how our society acts and must be a direct representation and reflection of how theirs acts, then explain how they would NOT glorify the Jedi, the way every society and country on Earth glorifies our current and ancient warriors? i.e., Spartans, Samurai, Mongols, Marines, Aztecs, Vikings, Romans, French Foreign Legion... do I need to go on?
Fucking moron.

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That's a nice link that says nothing about the effectiveness of the Purge. Try again.


You're obviously an obtuse, blind, G.E.D. type of fellow, so I won't attempt to point out how much of a bigger idiot you can become. It's obvious you've maxed out on those personality traits - sorry - flaws. It would seem that you are incapable of following another persons argument in any coherent fashion.

Oh what happened to Mr. I Am Above Insults. :lol: Apparently you aren't above being a liar. :lol:

And please, that article talks about vague attempts and acts and says nothing about effectiveness outside of the physical purge of the Jedi, which according to your precious EU, the Empire couldn't even get right! :lol: They couldn't even kill all the ACTUAL Jedi, yet you sit here and expect us to believe that they could wipe out all trace of memory, photographs, videos, stories, books, etc... you are such a fool.

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Also, you've once again polluted another thread by going off topic. To paraphrase one of my favorite movie quotes of all time: "Mr. Havok, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
:lol: Man you are a fucking laugh riot. This may have been effective if more than like, one person agreed with you. :lol:
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-05-15 12:54am 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12656
Location: Oakland CA
Abacus wrote:
I have a bachelors in Political Science and am working through a Masters in Strategic East Asian Studies. I know how regimes are created and how they fall. I've even sneakily put Star Wars within a few of my papers in the past using Palpatine as an example. Believe me when I say that I know what I'm speaking about. If you don't agree, then thats ok. We'll just agree to disagree.

Wow, what a waste of money. :lol:

Oh and pulling the "look at my degree!!!" card as opposed to actually writing an effective rebuttal is just as chicken shit as you have been dishonest.
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Tiriol
PostPosted: 2012-05-16 02:20am 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2005-09-15 11:31am
Posts: 1858
Location: Helsinki, Finland
I'm a little bit puzzled, but that's because I haven't watched ANH in some time. I seem to recall that the actual memory of the Jedi had not been erased, but that the propaganda machine had painted them as religious fanatics, adherents to some ancient sorcerous ways that might not have actually been real. I should probably see ANH again, though, before making any actual judgment on the matter.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-05-16 03:57am 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12656
Location: Oakland CA
The admiral/general, I always forget if it was Motti or Tague, on the DS called it a sad devotion to that ancient religion. Yet, he knew that the Force supposedly granted clairvoyance.
Han Solo said he didn't believe in the Force, especially as far as controlling his destiny.
In ROTJ, Han clearly knew what a Jedi Knight was, whether he believed in their abilities or not, when Chewie brought him up to speed after being pulled out of carbon freeze.

Han is the best example as he would have been maybe 4 or 5 when the Empire started and would have gotten the full brunt of the supposed Jedi erasing of the Empire before the general public turned on the New Order. Obviously, it didn't happen.
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