is it just me or are original trilogy lightsabers cooler

[DudeGuyMan]

I am happy for you that you enjoyed it, but I am not entirely certain how this is supposed to relate to the rest of the thread.

Because the thread is basically just a "Oh the way Luke tied his shoes in the OT was so much more meaningful and iconic than the way Anakin did in the PT, stupid Lucas!" circlejerk, and the way the geek community briefly flirted with pop culture relevance at the start of the decade before predictably throwing it all down the toilet (by churlishly insisting that nothing is as good as it was when they were kids and hyping a series of fattynerd niche-interest flops) is a sore spot of mine.

Fucking geeks (and I use the term with love) you almost mattered there for a minute. Then you went all "Spielberg ruined Indiana Jones by having a two-second shot of some gophers in it, that fucker! Oh well I'm sure Scott Pilgrim will be a huge hit!" and reminded the rest of the world that you shouldn't be listened to.

Closer to the topic, I just want to point out that the fight choreography in the OT was shit and ass. After the epic throwdown at the end of ROTS, the rematch in ANH is just ridiculous to watch. It really does look like an elderly man slowly fighting a cripple. Luke running around that sail barge swinging like a five year old girl with a wiffle bat? Ugh. Give me bored-looking Jedi effortlessly whipping through CGI droids any day.

[Galvatron]

I don't know about cooler, but I will say that I didn't like how lightabers in the PT suddenly had sharp tips. It's especially evident in ROTS when Anakin's pointing his glow rod at Palpatine.

However, before this erupts into another tangential, shit-flinging "planet core" argument, I will say that this trivial bit of minutiae was hardly enough to make me dislike the PT.

[Stark]

Is someone bitter that their community lost a chance at legitimacy it never really had?

[Shroom Man 777]

Even picking boogers would be more compelling if the booger picking scene was in a movie that had cohesion, a cast that gelled well with one another, focused narrative, tension, and proper conveyance of emotions. While picking a fancy CGI booger would be less effective if the movies have none of those things or was deficient in 'em.

[VF5SS]

That's not really a big problem though. Luke effortlessly (for the most part) carves a path through Jabba's skiff in Return of the Jedi and he rarely looks over stressed or under a lot of tension.

Like I said previously, Mark Hamill is a laugher and not a fighter so his sabre antics are not the main focus of the scene. It's never just about him when his friends are around. The whole thing is very madcap and shows the ability of a farm boy, a blind guy, a woman in a metal bikini, and Mr. Colt 45 can do with the help of some droids. It's not perfect as ROTJ is the weakest film relatively, but it's hokey and quaint in a good way. To me it seems like it was later merchandise and spinoffs (like Super ROTJ) that tried to pass off madcap action like the image of badass Jedi Luke.

It's the same principle in TPM with Qui-gon and Obi-wan. In fact, as much as I think TPM blows as a film, the sabre-play and the way the Jedi exude calm while waving their glowsticks around slicing off droid body parts felt really kickass to me and one of the film's true good points.

Well, I never felt any connection to the characters because the actors sure didn't so I dunno. Watching them carve up useless opponents isn't a sign of calmness to me. It's just procedural. I'm not sure how they did those scenes, but I feel like there was probably no stand-ins for the droids. They certainly animate the droids reacting to them, but their bumbling antics feel more staged. While in the end it is all staged, I feel there is a difference between watching weekly Kamen Rider shtick where they acknowledge their low budgets and work around them with more energy and equally quick editing and actors in a high budget film that are just doing this scene to show glow sticks. Unlike the ROTJ scene, the focus is all on them killing droids so there's too much time for us to think about what they are doing and start to see the flaws. For example, I really don't understand why when Obi and Gin just effortlessly force push things (the gesture they make is so nonchalant it's goofy) that they don't just do that all the time. Or instead of jumping straight into a mess of droids guarding prisoners, why not act calm and professional and just force push them from the pedestrian bridge above? While it is true the point of the Jedi bros in the beginning of the film is "escape," the way they neglect to show the actual escaping part (for example, telling us they got into a ventilation shaft instead of showing us) seems to be showing that this scene is more about Jedi glow stick waving than moving the plot. Rather than the action flowing with the scene transitions and story, it's more like here's some action and now here's some throwaway dialog to get them to the next action bit. I'm not saying we need to show Obi lacing up his loose fitting robes or licking his lips, but look at the contrast to ANH where people getting into the Millennium Falcon in the heat of battle is a lead up to the next scene.

Or something like that.

[Channel72]

For example, I really don't understand why when Obi and Gin just effortlessly force push things (the gesture they make is so nonchalant it's goofy) that they don't just do that all the time.

You fucking idiot. Obviously, the reason is because an average Jedi has 50 FMP (Force Midichlorian Points), and a Force Push move requires 5 FMP. (As a Padawan, Obi-Wan only had 25 FMP.) FMP are restored slowly at a rate of 0.35 FMP per minute, however meditation can increase this rate. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan wisely reserve their FMP for later usage. (Pro-tip: On the Blu-ray edition of TPM, turn on the "FMP Meter" bonus feature to see each character's FMP meter displayed on screen.)

In all seriousness though... the fight choreograhy at the beginning of TPM was pretty awesome, if only because it really showed us for the first time how skillfull and powerful the legendary Jedi actually were in their heyday.

[RedImperator]

I am happy for you that you enjoyed it, but I am not entirely certain how this is supposed to relate to the rest of the thread.

Because the thread is basically just a "Oh the way Luke tied his shoes in the OT was so much more meaningful and iconic than the way Anakin did in the PT, stupid Lucas!" circlejerk,

lolwut? There was like, an actual debate going on, and what I thought was a fairly interesting discussion of the symbolic value lightsabers have throughout the movies. I mean, sometimes threads need bombs tossed in them, and you're a pretty good bomb thrower and I appreciate that valuable service, but this thread wasn't one of them.

Also, honestly, "LOL nerds lol box office" doesn't get a lot of points for originality, you know?

Closer to the topic, I just want to point out that the fight choreography in the OT was shit and ass. After the epic throwdown at the end of ROTS, the rematch in ANH is just ridiculous to watch. It really does look like an elderly man slowly fighting a cripple. Luke running around that sail barge swinging like a five year old girl with a wiffle bat? Ugh. Give me bored-looking Jedi effortlessly whipping through CGI droids any day.

Pretty sure no one disputes that. I think it's more debatable that the prequels were well served by so much twirly-choreography spectacle. There were what, five set-piece lightsaber fights in ROTS? Four? It's been a while and I can't remember if there was much of on in Palpatine's office. THe fight coreography at Mustafar was excellent, but I think it loses something for having come after so much other good fight coreography.

I will disagree with the people who don't like the first fight in TPM. That was the first time we saw the Jedi in 20 years, and the first time ever seeing them in their prime. That fight needed to be a brutal robot slaughter because it needed to establish a baseline for what the Jedi could do.

PS I don't give TPM a lot of credit, but it definitely got this right re: symbolism. To the audience watching TPM, the Jedi and their tools, especially the lightsabers, carry a ton of symbolic meaning. This is what Luke spent three movies aspiring to, this is the weapon of the man who can save the galaxy and the man who can destroy it. So we see Jedi show up, and we know shit's about to get serious.

Well, the Nemoidians see this, and have the exact same reaction we do. The lightsaber to them must be something like a badge, a cross, a fasces, and a wicked blade all in one--a symbol of the law, of the power of the state, spiritual authority, and a non-zero chance you're about to have your shit completely ruined. Palpatine basically had to remind them they had a spaceship full of robots before they did anything.

It's just this neat moment where the characters on screen and the audience are sharing a reaction to the same magic. It wouldn't work quite that way if TPM was the first movie released or you had never seen the OT, but I saw it in theaters after practically wearing out my OT VHS tapes, and it definitely worked for me.

[Civil War Man]

Well, I never felt any connection to the characters because the actors sure didn't so I dunno. Watching them carve up useless opponents isn't a sign of calmness to me. It's just procedural.

This brings up an interesting point. Where is the line where it crosses from "serene martial artists calmly and effortlessly dispatch hordes of enemies" to "bored actors going through rote motions"? Part of the problem may be that for most of the movie the only thing we see the droids actually fight are the Jedi. And the one real exception to that is them fighting the Gungan army, but the Gungans are tainted by Jar Jar being the only Gungan we see for most of the movie.

[VF5SS]

I saw the Special Editions like two or three years before TPM so I don't know what you're talking about with this twenty years with no Jedi stuff :3

And I don't need to mention Masters of Teras awful fighting game again ;-;

I don't disagree with the notion of showing Jedi in their prime being clearly dominant over their opponents and I supposed the movie did show just that. I'm more speaking to the actual presentation.

I feel like it's overstating the initial fight as "brutal robot slaughter." They do certainly cut through everything like a hot knife through cortosis and there's a neat scene of Gin attempting to cut through the door which does show the power of the lightsabre, but honestly their primary opponent is not too threatening. We saw Stormtroopers kill people a lot in the opening to ANH so even if they fail to kill three people and a walking fur coat, there's some kind of baseline.

I know this may sound strange but I find the B1 Battledroid, especially as it's generally portrayed in the movies, to be rather adorable. They're scrawny little guys with cutesy mechanical voices that bleat "roger roger" like a plush toy. Even when posed in vast armies with their Hasbro approved vehicles, I can't help but see happy little wind-up soldiers. I kinda feel more for them dying by the dozens than any of the cartoon rabbits or generic EU style Jedi.

They did attempt to backtrack the last movie with the introduction of the beefier B2 droid but they got lost in the crowd in the end and became more fodder for glow stick twirling after the arena fight. The sudden depowering of a threat is something that made the Borg very sad to watch and it seems to happy rather suddenly with these movies as well. Even the Destroyers are too infrequent and more of a mild inconvenience for all their supposed power. We never see a Jedi use their wits and abilities to overcome a Destroyer's shield and rapid-fire guns outside of cutting to the next scene.

This brings up an interesting point. Where is the line where it crosses from "serene martial artists calmly and effortlessly dispatch hordes of enemies" to "bored actors going through rote motions"? Part of the problem may be that for most of the movie the only thing we see the droids actually fight are the Jedi. And the one real exception to that is them fighting the Gungan army, but the Gungans are tainted by Jar Jar being the only Gungan we see for most of the movie.

This is definitely a big issue. Even Kenshiro, the most powerful and stoic of martial artists, gets most of his drama from actually taking hits and bleeding when the generic thug of the day whacks him with a gigantic piece of rock the size of a bus. Jedi by contrast either do really well or die very quickly.

[Civil War Man]

This is definitely a big issue. Even Kenshiro, the most powerful and stoic of martial artists, gets most of his drama from actually taking hits and bleeding when the generic thug of the day whacks him with a gigantic piece of rock the size of a bus. Jedi by contrast either do really well or die very quickly.

I was thinking something more like the Stormtrooper example. The droids never get a comparable moment.

In the start, they fight Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and get the shit kicked out of them.
Then the Jedi meet Jar Jar, who is the only Gungan we see outside of a couple minutes in their capital.
Then the droids land the invasion army and conquer the Naboo off-screen.
Then the Jedi kick the shit out of more droids.
Then other stuff.
Then the droids fight the Gungans, who we have little familiarity with outside of a couple hours of Jar Jar, while the Jedi kick the shit out of more droids.
The End.

The funny thing is, it could have worked. The main issues I see are 1) the Naboo getting conquered offscreen, and 2) the Gungans receiving little characterization outside of some dude they banished for being an idiot. If you fixed one or both of those, the droids could have come across as a legitimate threat even with the Jedi calmly kicking the shit out of them.

But as it is, the droids either get the shit kicked out of them, or they almost get stalemated by a people we don't know outside of one doofus with a wacky accent.

[RedImperator]

The B1 droids did turn out to be weak villains (they are pretty cute, now that you mention it), but I think you have to be careful about backporting later impressions onto the initial scene. To the extent that I can remember my initial reactions to a movie I first saw 12 or 13 years ago, my reaction to the opening fight was not "man these robots are laem". I at least got the impression that they would have butchered any non-Jedi.

I agree with Civil War Man that it would have been nice to see the robots win a fight like the boarding of Tantive IV. Wouldn't have had to be much--maybe give the Jedi some tough-looking diplomatic guards who get smoked in a fair fight right before the Jedi start their robbit murdering spreee.

[Channel72]

Fundamentally, what this comes down to is that the scene aboard the Trade Federation ship at the beginning of TPM serves to establish that 1) all the hype surrounding the Jedi (those legendary keepers of peace and justice who we've heard about for three movies now) is in fact, well justified, and 2) everybody in Prequel-era Star Wars fears or respects them.

This is similar to the obligatory one-sided ass-kicking scene we usually have in any decent super-hero flick, in order to establish how powerful the hero really is. There's usually also a corresponding scene where the villain kicks a similar amount of ass (or just does something incredibly evil or crazy). But after that, the remainder of the action scenes aren't so one-sided, because now we have a super-hero fighting against a super-villain.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying that TPM was a pretty great movie for the first twenty minutes or so. The problem is that after the opening scene, (which does a very good job of establishing the skill and power of the Jedi), there's scene after scene of Jedi effortlessly plowing through battledroids, and it all becomes quite routine by the second movie. The Jedi never seem to be in any real danger, except when they're dueling with an equal. And when the Jedi finally do come up against an equal, it still feels somewhat bland because the prequels rarely (never?) take the time to establish any of the Sith villains before they're brought in for a set-piece duel (e.g. we never see Darth Maul or Count Dooku do anything to establish their bad-assery before they engage the Jedi.)

[The Romulan Republic]

Wrong.

Jedi are shown to be extremely vulnerable to droids and clones, during both the Battle of Geonosis and Order 66.

[Havok]

Neither of which were in TPM. Or in any part of the movies that C72 is talking about.

[VF5SS]

Well I would hope Jedi would be vulnerable to being shot. Very few protagonists can get away with be invulnerable to bullets.

But again, most of the time those Jedi who do get shot are usually killed pretty quickly. I think only conehead guy really puts up a fight. Blue Titty Tanktop girl dies in a very silly way. She falls over like some soap opera actress pretending to faint. Maybe the force was still protecting her dead body though because those megajule blasters weren't melting her flesh too much.

Actually I think the way the PT handles lightsabres exposures perhaps their greatest weakness. Despite all their power as a mystical weapon, there's only so many ways to have two people fight with them.

Ok so it's a glow stick that can cut through anything and blocks ray guns. The only thing that can stop one is another laser sword. So essentially every fight boils down to clash clash clash the clash and then someone gets something chopped off or someone runs away. There's no halfway damage or glancing blow really. The only exception is Dooku burning Obi's arms and legs just to take him out of the fight, which in retrospect is also kinda weird since Obi just got sizable chunks of flesh burned by the might of the Force yet he's not screaming in pain. Well I guess that's because Obi never got cyborg parts in the OT Jedi training. So artificially extending a fight through flashy stick waggling doesn't age well when essentially each fight takes place in a small, flat sound stage. The fights don't seem to end through one character being overpowered, most like one actor hits his cue to stand there and get chopped or stabbed. People making a mistake in a fight is certainly realistic, but these things just happen to Jedi in a way that doesn't make their opponent looked skilled or overwhelming, just lucky.

Darth Maul literally stands there and waits for Obi Wan to chop him and expose the kid friendly blood spray. And then they copy Tex Cobb's death from Blind Fury :<

[Gunhead]

I think the problem is that when the fights erupt the solution of the heroes is to lightsaber / force magic themselves out of it. Which leads to a series of snore inducing fights because they are never really forced to think themselves out of a tight spot. The other big point is that for the most part in the OT lightsabers are used to cut people or block lightsabers which is a sound use for a close combat weapon. Standing in the open and let people take shots at you is a fundamentally stupid fucking idea as demonstrated by the battle of Geonosis. Lightsabers are used to block blasters in the OT four times or something like that, with Luke getting shot to the hand once too.

-Gunhead

[Stark]

The ROTS finale choppy sequence was really super boring. It's like 40m of clash-clash-clash-clash.

[Havok]

Like I said previously, Mark Hamill is a laugher and not a fighter so his sabre antics are not the main focus of the scene. It's never just about him when his friends are around. The whole thing is very madcap and shows the ability of a farm boy, a blind guy, a woman in a metal bikini, and Mr. Colt 45 can do with the help of some droids. It's not perfect as ROTJ is the weakest film relatively, but it's hokey and quaint in a good way. To me it seems like it was later merchandise and spinoffs (like Super ROTJ) that tried to pass off madcap action like the image of badass Jedi Luke.

Wow. This just smacks of OT Nostalgia Love.
"Yeah, everything about that scene is horrible, but it was in ROTJ so "
And actually, the whole sequence on Tattooine is about Luke and supposedly showing how badass he had become. It failed miserably.

[Havok]

Actually I think the way the PT handles lightsabres exposures perhaps their greatest weakness. Despite all their power as a mystical weapon, there's only so many ways to have two people fight with them.

Ok so it's a glow stick that can cut through anything and blocks ray guns. The only thing that can stop one is another laser sword. So essentially every fight boils down to clash clash clash the clash and then someone gets something chopped off or someone runs away.

Every swordfight scene...um... ever.

There's no halfway damage or glancing blow really. The only exception is Dooku burning Obi's arms and legs just to take him out of the fight,

Obi-Wan destroying Maul's saber, Luke hitting Vader's shoulder, Vader chopping off Luke's hand, Dooku chopping of Anakin's hand. And of course your pointed out exception. So out of the 9 (?) scenes of lightsaber duels, 5 have some sort of halfway damage (non-leathal) or glancing blow.

which in retrospect is also kinda weird since Obi just got sizable chunks of flesh burned by the might of the Force yet he's not screaming in pain. Well I guess that's because Obi never got cyborg parts in the OT Jedi training.

Uhh...what? Anakin took the force lightning hit.
Force lightning doesn't seem to cause anyone to scream in pain. Luke is screaming for his father, Mace is screaming cause his hand just got chopped off. Anakin doesn't scream at all. Vader doesn't make a peep when he is hit with it. Palpatine is screaming 'cause he knows he is royally fucked.

So artificially extending a fight through flashy stick waggling doesn't age well when essentially each fight takes place in a small, flat sound stage. The fights don't seem to end through one character being overpowered, most like one actor hits his cue to stand there and get chopped or stabbed. People making a mistake in a fight is certainly realistic, but these things just happen to Jedi in a way that doesn't make their opponent looked skilled or overwhelming, just lucky.

So Maul didn't look more skilled than Qui-Gon? Both times? Dooku not more skilled than Anakin? Anakin later more powerful, if not more skilled, than Dooku? Vader not more skilled than Luke Pt I?
I mean, if you are going to sit here and tell me the OT lightsaber fights LOOK better than the PT fights, you have zero credibility when it comes to... hell just using your eyes.
If you are going the emotional tract of nostalgia and mean like Stark has been saying...fine. Otherwise, the PT is superior in every other aspect.

[Havok]

The ROTS finale choppy sequence was really super boring. It's like 40m of clash-clash-clash-clash.

It is most certainly lacking the emotion of other fights. It has an epic look to it, but the dialogue that initiates it and the way they talk to each other at the end is what kills it for me. There is a little emotion put back into that scene AFTER the limbs go flying, but not enough to salvage it.

The emotion of the Order 66 scene also completely overshadows anything that might have been there.

[Havok]

I think the problem is that when the fights erupt the solution of the heroes is to lightsaber / force magic themselves out of it. Which leads to a series of snore inducing fights because they are never really forced to think themselves out of a tight spot. The other big point is that for the most part in the OT lightsabers are used to cut people or block lightsabers which is a sound use for a close combat weapon. Standing in the open and let people take shots at you is a fundamentally stupid fucking idea as demonstrated by the battle of Geonosis. Lightsabers are used to block blasters in the OT four times or something like that, with Luke getting shot to the hand once too.

-Gunhead

The Jedi for whatever badly written reason were forced into Geonosis. Other than that, and from what we know, Jedi haven't had to fight large standing armies for ages. Their jobs entail them getting out of tight jams and mostly deflecting bolts back at a handful of people that have the sac to fire on them in the first place.

It is clear by how they travel in groups of two that they just don't come across large threats that they can't handle often, if at all.

As for Luke in the OT, the only time he has a lightsaber against someone not named Vader is on the sail barge and when he is thrown from the speeder bike. Keep in mind that he blocked the shit out of the far faster and more powerful bolts of the speeder with relative ease. The guy on the deck had snuck up behind and got a lucky shot on what was essentially a Padawan when it came to training.

[Eleas]

As for Luke in the OT, the only time he has a lightsaber against someone not named Vader is on the sail barge and when he is thrown from the speeder bike. Keep in mind that he blocked the shit out of the far faster and more powerful bolts of the speeder with relative ease. The guy on the deck had snuck up behind and got a lucky shot on what was essentially a Padawan when it came to training.

Also, I think it's interesting that the only time Luke is hit, it's in his mechanical hand, as opposed to a living part of him.

[Gunhead]

I don't see how or why the Jedi ended up on geonosis is relevant to the ass kicking they received there. I think it just basically shows how having some magic kung fu and a sword doesn't make you immune to being shot at when you lack character shields. Not to mention the end of RoTS.
I also don't see how Luke is a padawan unless you count EU, which I'm not familiar with and I aim to keep it that way. On a similar note, lucky or not, all hits count and while Havok might think the shooter was lucky, I say Luke was lucky he didn't block it with his forehead.
I also firmly believe that the reason for Jedi working in pairs is that it reduces the chance of getting shot in the back greatly which is a perfectly viable tactic for killing a Jedi like RoTS aptly demonstrates. I mean it's not like it's unprecedented, Han got the drop on Vader, twice if you count him taking pot shots at him in Bespin.

-Gunhead

[Channel72]

Like I said previously, Mark Hamill is a laugher and not a fighter so his sabre antics are not the main focus of the scene. It's never just about him when his friends are around. The whole thing is very madcap and shows the ability of a farm boy, a blind guy, a woman in a metal bikini, and Mr. Colt 45 can do with the help of some droids. It's not perfect as ROTJ is the weakest film relatively, but it's hokey and quaint in a good way. To me it seems like it was later merchandise and spinoffs (like Super ROTJ) that tried to pass off madcap action like the image of badass Jedi Luke.

Wow. This just smacks of OT Nostalgia Love.
"Yeah, everything about that scene is horrible, but it was in ROTJ so "
And actually, the whole sequence on Tattooine is about Luke and supposedly showing how badass he had become. It failed miserably.

Yeah, the whole Jabba sequence is kind of incoherent. I mean, I grew up with it so it's hard for me to dislike it, but the whole thing is plotted with TPM-level incoherence. The rescue plan was... what? Was there two independent rescue operations going on there? They send in Lando to pose as a guard, then Luke sends the droids as a token gift to get Han back (was Luke seriously going to give away his beloved droids, or did he just do it to sneak in the lightsaber?). When that fails, send in Princess Leia (a hi-ranking important member of the rebel alliance) disguised as a bounty hunter to rescue Han, (but then what's the plan for rescuing Chewbacca?), and finally send in Luke who just fucks up again and only survives because Jabba decided to carry out a Bond-villain style elaborate execution rather than just shooting him on the spot.

Anyway, I've always had the same reaction as VF5SS to the action scene on the sail barge: it does seem like more of a "madcap", ensemble-cast action scene rather than a demonstration of Luke's new elite Jedi skillz. But yeah, it's pretty obvious that the whole Jabba sequence was meant to show off Luke's new skills, it just utterly failed to convey that effectively. I never thought "oh shit, Luke's Jedi training really paid off!" - my reaction was more like "here's another ensemble action sequence starring the antics of Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian!"

In contrast, the opening scene in TPM really does effectively demonstrate how fucking bad-ass the Jedi are.

[RedImperator]

I actually think the Geonosis debacle fits the themes of the PT pretty well. The Jedi walk in to the arena waving their lightsabers, symbol of legal and religious authority etc., expecting to win because they're Jedi and when Jedi flash the lightsaber (this sounds like a thinly veiled sexual innuendo), people back down or else.

And then they get slaughtered, because the legal authority of the Republic doesn't intimidate the separatists and the spiritual authority of the Jedi doesn't intimidate the Sith, and it turns out, even Jedi can't deflect massed blaster fire. That they have to be rescued by the clones just drives the message even further home: the days of the Jedi keeping peace and order are over. The magic is gone.