Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Post Reply
User avatar
Fire Fly
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1608
Joined: 2004-01-06 12:03am
Location: Grand old Badger State

Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Fire Fly »

NOTE: Said edit is not available to view (at present...) and there is an interesting debate between two people in a video in the link regarding the worthiness of the prequels.

Link
Topher Grace Edited The ‘Star Wars’ Prequels Into One 85-Minute Movie and We Saw It

Posted on Wednesday, March 7th, 2012 by Peter Sciretta

Last month I received a cryptic e-mail inviting me to a private screening of a new Star Wars film edited by Topher Grace — which is funny because I had no idea there was a new Star Wars film in the works, with or without Grace’s involvement. I was told the screening was a secret private event arranged only for friends only and was asked not to talk about it beforehand. The event was held somewhere in the Hollywood area in a a screening room filled with filmmakers, editors, actors, actresses and only a few press friends. I was told I could blog about it afterwards if I wanted, so here goes…

For those of you who don’t know, Topher Grace is a film geek. He loves the Star Wars films, the Back to the Future movies and all the same signature titles of any film geek who grew up in the 1980s. He recently became interested in the editing process and wanted to learn more about the art form. Instead of cutting a short film, he wanted to use something he was more familiar with.

His idea was to edit the Star Wars prequels into one movie, as they would provide him a lot of footage to work with. He used footage from all three prequels, a couple cuts from the original trilogy, some music from The Clone Wars television series, and even a dialogue bit from Anthony Daniels’ (C-3PO) audio book recordings. He even created a new opening text crawl to set up his version of the story.

The result is an 85-minute movie titled Star Wars: Episode III.5: The Editor Strikes Back. It should be noted that the Star Wars prequel trilogy is almost 7 hours in total length, and the shortest film (Episode 1) is more than 51 minutes longer than Grace’s fan cut. What this means is a lot of footage ended up on the editing room floor, and a lot of creative choices were made in the editing process. And the result? Topher Grace’s Star Wars film is probably the best possible edit of the Star Wars prequels given the footage released and available.

Whats most shocking is that with only 85 minutes of footage, Topher was able to completely tell the main narrative of Anakin Skywalker’s road from Jedi to the Sith. While I know the missing pieces and could even fill in the blanks in my head as the film raced past, none of those points were really needed. Whats better is that the character motivations are even more clear and identifiable, a real character arc not bogged down by podraces, galactic senates, Jar Jar Binks, politics or most of the needless parts of the Star Wars prequels. It not only clarifies the story, but makes the film a lot more action-packed.

The screening last night was a private gathering of Topher’s industry friends — a event that feels like it will surely become part of Hollywood quasi-urban legend. I wish you all could see Topher’s version of the Star Wars prequels, but we were told that this would be the one and only time he would screen his cut. Of course, there are tremendous legal issues which would prevent him from screening the edit in public. He has no intention of uploading the footage online, and doing a screening at, say, Comic-Con, would require uncle George’s permission — which probably would never happen.

I will give you a rundown of what appeared and didn’t appear in Topher’s film below, but you’ll find that Grace was able to do a lot by removing just a few central aspects of the prequels: the politics, the clone storyline, and the majority of Phantom Menace. Scenes were also cleverly trimmed to get to the point and remove the fluff.

The opening crawl establishes that assassins have been after the queen and Jedis have been sent to intervene. Topher’s version begins with Episode I’s climactic lightsaber fight between Darth Maul (Ray Park), Qui-Gon Jinn (Liam Neeson), and Obi-Wan Kenobi (Ewan McGregor), bypassing the majority of Phantom Menace completely. Starting the story in the middle of this fight was a brilliant choice. Qui-Gon’s dying request that Obi-Wan train Anakin perfectly sets up the story.

Grace’s version of the film(s) centers on Anakin’s training and friendship with Obi-Wan, and his relationship with Queen Amidala (Natalie Portman). Gone are Trade Federation blockades, the Gungan city, the whole Padmé handmaiden storyline, the explanation of midichlorians, the galactic senate and the boring politics, Anakin’s origins (a backstory which never really needed to be seen in the first place), the droid army’s attack on Naboo, and Jar Jar Binks (Ahmed Best) appears only briefly for only one line of dialogue, used as a set-up to introduce us to the Queen.

The first time we see Anakin, he is grown up and played by Hayden Christensen (Jake Lloyd never appears in this version). Kenobi and Skywalker are assigned to protect Amidala from additional assassination attempts. This leads us quickly into the chase to capture the assassin in the skies of Coruscant. Anakin is assigned to accompany Padmé to her home planet of Naboo. Unlike George’s version, Obi-Wan doesn’t discover an army of clone troopers on Kamino, but instead stumbles upon Count Dooku’s motives.

While the Clone troopers make a couple short appearances in this version of the film, the word “clone” is only used once, and the whole storyline is almost completely cut from the story. Jango Fett makes only a small appearance, and his son Boba Fett is left on the cutting room floor. Anakin returns to Tatooine and finds his mother tortured to death by the Tusken Raiders, but gone is the laughable aftermath.

Padmé and Anakin’s love story is given more of a central spotlight, incorporating a deleted scene of a dinner with her family on Naboo. While the dialogue still sucks, and the romantic scenes are still a bit cheesy, I was left caring way more about this relationship than I was in the original prequels. The arena scene is still included, but shortened.

And just like that, we’re already into episode 3. In this section, Topher has removed General Grievous.

Padme tells Anakin that she’s pregnant. The Jedi Council orders Anakin to secretly monitor Palpatine and denies him the rank of Jedi Master. Anakin is frustrated with the Jedi and gets closer to Palpatine. He tells Anakin that the Dark Side of the force has the ability to prevent death. Anakin reports him to the Jedi Council, who doesn’t trust him to come along for the arrest. Palpatine/Sidious battles Jedi Master Mace Windu (Samuel L Jackson), Anakin shows up and turns on his old master to become an apprentice to Darth Sidious. Sidious issues Order 66 across the galaxy, and almost all the Jedi are killed.

Obi-Wan informs Padmé that Anakin has joined the dark side. She travels to Mustafar to confront him, and realizes that Obi-Wan was telling the truth. Obi-Wan was able to hide aboard her ship, but Anakin believes that she brought him there to kill him. Anakin and Obi-Wan have their lightsaber battle in the middle of a lava flow, ending with Vader diced and burnt. Yoda and the Emperor have their lightsaber duel. Sidious finds Vader in time to save him, and Padmé gives birth to twins — but not intercut.

The twins find their respective homes, Yoda goes into exile on Dagobah, the droids’ memories are erased, and the film ends with Anakin being turned into Darth Vader. The last shot features Vader’s helmet being lowered down onto Anakin, creating the most iconic villain. And we are left on that dark note.

Yoda doesn’t teach Obi-Wan how to return from the netherworld to see Qui-Gon, and we don’t see Darth Vader learn of Padmé’s death — which also means we don’t see the resulting infamous laughable temper tantrum “Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!”

Topher Grace’s Star Wars fan edit is an interesting experiment. You have to understand that Grace can only use the footage available to him, so some of the same problems exist that plagued the original films: some of the dialogue remains laughably bad, and you can’t change some of the stilted performances and stiff framing. I have seen a few of the other fan edits that have been online, including the famous Phantom Edit — and this is probably the best of the bunch. I’m not sure if it turns the saga into a great film, but its certainly a lot more entertaining.

Before the film screened a trailer for another film Topher Grace is remixing — Steven Spielberg‘s Close Encounters of a Third Kind. I’m not sure that film needs a remix, or could even benefit from a remix, but am interested to see what the experiment will look like. After that, Grace hopes that other actors, editors and filmmakers will run with the ball, produce and showcase remixed films on a annual basis within this private community.

Jason Reitman has been directing live stage reads of classic film screenplays at LACMA, showing how a filmmaker can make different choices with an interesting cast can completely change a written screenplay. This seems like the next evolution of that, but also an exercise in storytelling with the use of crafty editing. I’m not sure I completely understand Grace’s motives in creating this film, but I enjoyed it regardless.

After the screening, I recorded a video blog reaction with Frosty from Collider, Alex from FirstShowing and Fanboys director Kyle Newman. Frosty and Kyle get into a fun spat over the overall quality of the Star Wars prequels:
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Galvatron »

Sounds pretty damn brilliant. I hope I get to see it somehow.
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Havok »

Interesting. I wonder in hind sight, if Lucas wishes he hadn't backed himself into a 3 movie corner by making ANH episode IV after the fact?
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
Jim Raynor
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2922
Joined: 2002-07-11 04:42am

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Jim Raynor »

Seeing as how the prequel trilogy has made him a ton of money, I don't think he does. :)

Sounds like a pretty good fan edit (and I'm suprised that a celebrity like Topher Grace is this big a fan), and it would be interesting to see. I wonder how the character motivations are more clear this way though, as the article writer says. Anakin's fear of loss, as well as his desire to right the galaxy's wrongs, are rooted in his slave life in TPM. Also, the conservative and close-minded attitudes of Obi-Wan (as underused as he was) and the Jedi Council were established in Episode I. All of that is skipped. Removing Palpatine's scheming in the Senate, as well as the Clone Wars, also takes away from the theme of how vulnerable democracy is to fear and war.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
Grumman
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2488
Joined: 2011-12-10 09:13am

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Grumman »

Galvatron wrote:Sounds pretty damn brilliant. I hope I get to see it somehow.
Even if you can't see Topher Grace's version, it might inspire a copycat to repeat his experiment.
Jim Raynor wrote:I wonder how the character motivations are more clear this way though, as the article writer says. Anakin's fear of loss, as well as his desire to right the galaxy's wrongs, are rooted in his slave life in TPM.
It might be rooted in his slave life, but I don't think it was the one shown in TPM.
User avatar
Darth Tedious
Jedi Master
Posts: 1082
Joined: 2011-01-16 08:48pm

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Darth Tedious »

There's a few blanks to be filled in this version...

How did the Republic fall? Palpy was apparently granted supreme power out of nowhere? Shit, why were the Sith trying to kill Amidala? Why was Ani even looking for his mother?

One of the biggest complaints people make about the prequels is that you have to know x amount of EU info before it all makes sense (who the fuck is this Dooku guy?)
I get the impression this edit would only make a lick of sense at all because we've already seen the actual films.

All that said, I still wouldn't mind seeing it. The faster pace and higher excitement levels sound alright.

An aside: I wonder how long it will be before these kinds of movie 'remixes' become accepted under copyright and we see a flood of them in cinemas... it happened to music...
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
Jim Raynor
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2922
Joined: 2002-07-11 04:42am

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Jim Raynor »

Grumman wrote:
Jim Raynor wrote:I wonder how the character motivations are more clear this way though, as the article writer says. Anakin's fear of loss, as well as his desire to right the galaxy's wrongs, are rooted in his slave life in TPM.
It might be rooted in his slave life, but I don't think it was the one shown in TPM.
The movie didn't dwell on it in an instrospective manner, and the character himself was just a kid. Even in adulthood Anakin is rather unaware of his emotional issues, or the implications of what he aspired to do.

As a slave, TPM Anakin didn't have control of his own life. But like so many young and naive boys of that age, he dreamed of being a great hero. Anakin thought that the Jedi could do anything. That he could one day free all the slaves. What he didn't realize was that part of the wannabe "heroic" mindset includes a belief that you braver, more capable, and smarter than everyone else. That righting the world's wrongs as only you see fit is the flip side of an extremist or dictator. Anakin displays very simplistic, "right or wrong" thinking later in AOTC, and Padme even directly says that his suggestions for fixing the Republic sound like a dictatorship.

About a decade ago, hawks and nationalistic military wankers talked about making America safe from terrorism by forcefully spreading democracy throughout the world. Of course that mindset led into the ill-advised war in Iraq, and declining freedoms at home. Criticisms of action movies or superhero comics as reflecting a somewhat "fascist" mentality have existed for a long time. It's been observed that some people who like such entertainment do so because on some level, they wish to be tough and have power over people.

TPM Anakin didn't just aspire to heroic greatness. He was precocious, talented, and already knew on some level that he was great. He confidently talked trash to Sebulba, and explained how dangerous Sebulba was to Qui-Gon's group in a rather self-assured and informative tone. He was the only known human with the physical ability to podrace. And even though he had never finished a race prior to the movie, he raced anyway with the belief that he could win. Even young Anakin displayed confidence that veered into recklessness. His ambitions were probably reinforced by his early successes (and hearing that he was the "Chosen One," I'm sure).
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Havok »

The problem with the prequels, which you can't address in editing in any way, shape or form, is Anakin.
There are two different Anakins in the PT.

There is TPM Anakin: Happy, funny, confident, strong, trusting, compassionate, fearless, intelligent, helpful, creative... everything that you hope a kid will be.
Then there is AOTC, ROTS: Anakin: Sad, brooding, unconfident, arrogant, vengeful, untrusting, selfish... still with some of the good qualities, but overshadowed by the bad ones so much, that it is literally like two different people.

There is nothing wrong with TPM.
Yeah, it may not have been the story YOU wanted and imagined for 20 year, and it may not have had the witty banter from ANH, but it is what the characters are supposed to be. You see old Ben Kenobi in Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. You see Luke in Anakin. And you know what? You may not like Jar Jar, but, if Lucas had not backed off from the character because of fan* (*30 year old FattynerdsTM) reaction, there was a great potential there to have him be a very good character that grew along with Anakin through out the rest of the movies and serve as a key element to Anakin ultimately falling to the Dark Side.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
Grumman
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2488
Joined: 2011-12-10 09:13am

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Grumman »

Havok wrote:The problem with the prequels, which you can't address in editing in any way, shape or form, is Anakin.
There are two different Anakins in the PT.

There is TPM Anakin: Happy, funny, confident, strong, trusting, compassionate, fearless, intelligent, helpful, creative... everything that you hope a kid will be.
Then there is AOTC, ROTS: Anakin: Sad, brooding, unconfident, arrogant, vengeful, untrusting, selfish... still with some of the good qualities, but overshadowed by the bad ones so much, that it is literally like two different people.
Didn't this edit address the problem? By removing TPM Anakin altogether, sure, but you're still left with just one Anakin.
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Anguirus »

This sounds decidedly neat. I actually thought the teaser for Episode III was very effective because it presented scenes from Anakin's fall in the context of Obi-Wan's speech from Episode IV, without the barrels and barrels of setup and backstory that stops being relevant by the time of the OT. As a prelude to the OT, this sounds excellent and quite focused. There is the danger of showing instead of telling Anakin's slave backstory though, and it's hard to have the start of his fall in Episode II without it.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Havok »

Grumman wrote:
Havok wrote:The problem with the prequels, which you can't address in editing in any way, shape or form, is Anakin.
There are two different Anakins in the PT.

There is TPM Anakin: Happy, funny, confident, strong, trusting, compassionate, fearless, intelligent, helpful, creative... everything that you hope a kid will be.
Then there is AOTC, ROTS: Anakin: Sad, brooding, unconfident, arrogant, vengeful, untrusting, selfish... still with some of the good qualities, but overshadowed by the bad ones so much, that it is literally like two different people.
Didn't this edit address the problem? By removing TPM Anakin altogether, sure, but you're still left with just one Anakin.
TPM Anakin is the one you want. Is anyone surprised that the messed up angsty emo kid struggling with authority and trust falls to the Dark Side? Of course fucking not. The well adjusted kid in TPM is the Anakin that should have been.

That's why it can never be done. There is no footage of the correct Anakin to edit into anything.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
Channel72
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2068
Joined: 2010-02-03 05:28pm
Location: New York

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Channel72 »

^ Yeah, pretty much.

That said, the overall idea behind this edit is somewhat sound: re-edit the Prequels so they focus almost entirely on Anakin (even if it's still a shitty Anakin). Somewhere between interstellar trade routes and clone conspiracies, the actual Prequel trilogy seems to have forgotten that it was supposed to be mostly about Anakin.

It seems that Lucas was really more interested in telling the story of how the Republic became the Empire. I grant that's also an interesting story, but a lot of the overall events which led to the fall of the Republic didn't need to be explored in fine-grained detail. For example, the outbreak of the Clone Wars could simply be a given which the characters have to deal with. We don't need to know exactly how it started. (In the Original Trilogy, we don't know or care how the Rebellion formed or what exactly started the Galactic Civil War, because the focus of the story is on Luke's adventure from farmboy to Jedi hero.) The Prequels really should have been mostly focused on Anakin as a character, his relationship with Obi Wan and Amidala, and his eventual betrayal. So, I think this edit has the right idea. Too bad it doesn't have such great material to work with.
jollyreaper
Jedi Master
Posts: 1127
Joined: 2010-06-28 10:19pm

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by jollyreaper »

Lucas screwed up by not paying attention to his existing material. If you're writing a story start to finish, you can do whatever you want in later chapters so long as it's consistent with prior chapters. When you're writing flashbacks or prequels, it has to remain consistent backwards and forwards. And what Lucas wrote doesn't mesh well with IV.

Luke: No, my father didn't fight in the Clone Wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.
Obi-Wan: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals; he felt he should've stayed here and not gotten involved.
Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars?
Obi-Wan: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father.
Luke: I wish I'd known him.
Obi-Wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand that you've become quite a good pilot yourself.
[sorrowfully]
Obi-Wan: And he was a good friend.

Obi-Wan: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

Now there's nothing there that says Anakin wasn't a slave kid when they met but I'd doubt that most people would assume that was the case.

Bearing in mind that Anakin and Vader were most emphatically not the same person when IV was written, we'll accept the retcon from VI. My subjective interpretation was that the two of them met during the Clone Wars. Anakin got swept up in it and had made a name for himself as a pilot and warrior. Obi-Wan would have been Jedi in his own right at this point, not an apprentice. He would recognize the potential in Anakin. He would have been a natural adept, untrained but relying on his hunches and instincts which he did not realize were related to the Force. For a dramatic parallel Anakin should not have been much older than Luke at that time.

Obi-Wan would have begun Anakin's training and they would fight side by side in the war.

Now to properly explain Anakin's fall, I think that he should have turned evil with the best of intentions. The Republic was corrupt, the Jedi Order aloof and disconnected with the plight of the commoners. The democratic process would be failing and all the sacrifices of the Clone Wars would be pissed away in backroom deals. The people are incapable of governing themselves and will only be victims of the powerful who will abuse them. What is needed is order. One will, one victory, one peace. Palpatine's goals at first should seem unpleasant but justifiable. Hitler shouldn't be the model for him. One should look at classic roman leaders like Sulla, Julius and Augustus Caesar. He shouldn't become the dark force wizard with wrinkles and robes until much, much later, long after assuming the throne.

The fundamental philosophical disconnect between Palpatine and Vader is that Palpy is about power for power's sake while Vader had believed the idea of doing the difficult things for the greater good, even if such a thing might seem horrible. If a Roman legion broke in battle, it would be decimated. lots would be drawn and one soldier in ten would have to be executed by his own fellows. If they refused, all would be slain. Horrible? Hell, yeah. But to the general, consider the disaster if a legion broke in battle, how many more would die? What would be the consequences of a lost battle for the campaign, for the whole empire? You decimate one legion to set an example and it should stick in the minds of the legionaries for any number of battles to follow. Do not break. Do not yield.

If we compared the fall to the dark side with alcoholism, looking like Nick Nolte and waking up in a puddle of your own vomit with your liver failing doesn't happen overnight. It's a long process. You binge drink in college, wake up fine the next day, you think there isn't a problem. Drink heavily in your sales job, get along great with the clients, impress the boss, your career is still on the upwards swing. The consequences don't show until later. You can convince yourself there isn't a problem. You don't go from teetotaler to sleeping in the dumpster the following day. Meth ruins you a whole lot quicker but even at that you don't take your first tweak and lose your teeth the following day. Anakin's fall went from him questioning the Jedi to getting Mace killed to slaughtering a kindergarten. It moved far too quickly.
Jim Raynor
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2922
Joined: 2002-07-11 04:42am

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by Jim Raynor »

^There's almost nothing in those few vague lines from ANH that was contradicted by the prequels. Except for the part about Uncle Owen knowing Anakin well, which clashes horribly with the TESB retcon since it makes Luke's hiding place even more suspect. You even say that it was your "subjective" interpretation that Obi-Wan had met Anakin during the Clone Wars.

Now it's one thing if you have ideas of your own that you would've preferred. But Lucas didn't "screw up" and contradict a few vague lines stated by a character who was deliberately lying, omitting facts, and whitewashing the past.

And of course Anakin's fall was fast. That was in keeping with previously established canon in ROTJ. Which would've had us believe that Luke, someone with no history of serious emotional issues, was on the very verge of falling to the Dark Side after a few minutes of taunting from Palpatine. And not just fall to the Dark Side, but inexplicably join his enemy Palpatine out of what can only be the vaguest desire for power and membership on the winning side.

Compared to Luke, Anakin's fall was very gradual and built up. It had roots in his childhood experiences, and was the result of years of dissatisfaction under Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council. I don't compare falling to the Dark Side with alcoholism at all. Luke's case established that it's very sudden and transformative. The Jedi are so paranoid about it that they practically shun emotion and personal attachment. Yoda claims that once the Dark Side has you, it will "forever dominate your destiny." My favorite analogy is demonic possession. The Force is treated as sentient (the characters repeatedly refer to "the will of the Force") and can take control of a Jedi.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
jollyreaper
Jedi Master
Posts: 1127
Joined: 2010-06-28 10:19pm

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by jollyreaper »

I said my view is subjective because it is a personal view, just like saying whether or not the new trilogy is an artistic failure.

The temptation for Luke wasn't to join the dark side, it was the desire to kill palpy. He wanted it and was told that the hate would make him dark side. We only have this on word of palpy and I would consider him to be untrustworthy on this account. :) And Luke only fought Vader for real when he threatened Leia. He was at that moment ready to kill.

Near as we can tell, acting on emotion is what leads to making dark side mistakes. What seems right may not be and you can't take it back.

The temptation palpy offered was killing him, something that seemed so right. And consider that Vader killing him brought him back from the dark side. How? Luke would have killed from anger but Vader killed him out of love for his son.

All of the emotional detatchment stuff is from the new movies. I would think that good emotions would fit with the light side but it's hard to make good decisions in the heat of passion. The light side should be about acting with passion ruled by reason and not with pure passion, pure emotion. Horrible mistakes can come of it.

Also bear in mind that this wasn't a moral event horizon temptation like kill a child and become my disciple.

I think it would be true that the temptations of the dark side are so strong because force users are so powerful in general. How could you not abuse your strength? I think the reason why the light side is more difficult is because of the efforts to use the power responsibly. That is why the dark side is quicker and easier. You don't care about consequences. If you want it, you do it. There is no constraint.
User avatar
YT300000
Sith'ari
Posts: 6528
Joined: 2003-05-20 12:49pm
Location: Calgary, Canada
Contact:

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by YT300000 »

Jim Raynor wrote:And of course Anakin's fall was fast. That was in keeping with previously established canon in ROTJ. Which would've had us believe that Luke, someone with no history of serious emotional issues, was on the very verge of falling to the Dark Side after a few minutes of taunting from Palpatine. And not just fall to the Dark Side, but inexplicably join his enemy Palpatine out of what can only be the vaguest desire for power and membership on the winning side.
Was Luke's descent really so sudden? The very first thing he does in Return of the Jedi is use the Force to choke the pair of Gamorrean guards that block his path. IIRC, the novelization describes him as now having "a certain darkness," he's far more removed from the others, wears black robes - all seem to be little writing cues that suggest he has already taken the first few steps on his own.
Name changes are for people who wear women's clothes. - Zuul

Wow. It took me a good minute to remember I didn't have testicles. -xBlackFlash

Are you sure this isn't like that time Michael Jackson stopped by your house so he could use the bathroom? - Superman
jollyreaper
Jedi Master
Posts: 1127
Joined: 2010-06-28 10:19pm

Re: Fan edit of the prequels by Topher Grace into 85 mins

Post by jollyreaper »

Don't look now but priests also wear black. :)

I can see what you're saying about interpreting it that way. I always liked it that Luke was projecting an air of confidence and calm as befitting of a Jedi.

Now I know there is a tendency to explain certain powers as sithy. Force lightning is sith. Force chokes are sith. But hell, mind control is pretty sith. We think it's benign because Ben used it to beat a traffic stop. Imagine if the first time we saw it was Vader convincing a subordinate to shoot himself with his own blaster. A good guy wouldn't do that? Of course not. And just as Ben didn't make the storm troopers jump off a ledge when deactivating the tractor beams or force push them off Luke didn't kill the guard with the choke.

However, it's also true that Luke has killed more people on-screen than Vader ever did. But we would see crushing a man's throat -- with the force or a gauntlet -- as far more evil than using a proton torpedo even if dead is dead.

I think that the scarier interpretation here is that anything you do could lead to the dark side. This very fear could explain why the Jedi became aloof and withdrawn from the world. Again, this wasn't explained in the original trilogy in detail but would stand to reason and fits with the criticism many eastern religions have earned for their own practices.

If the Jedi were doing things right they wouldn't have fallen. Ergo, some mistake must have been made on their part to prevent the rise of Palpy.
Post Reply