TIE Fighters--can pilots eject?

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-11-29 02:17pm

I don't see how an X-Wing pilot can eject. There doesn't seem to be any kind of separable section. And the pilots aren't wearing sealed flightsuits.
I do believe they tell Porkins to eject, but I don't put much stock in that. Even if he could eject all he'd do is land on the Death Star to be either picked off, suffocate or get vaporised if the Rebels were succesful.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-11-29 02:44pm

X-Wings do have ejection seats, which appear to have magcon fields built in. X-Wing flight suits have vacuum seals. My assumption is that the magcon field merely gives the pilot a chance to seal their suit; survivability with just the field is said to be no more than two minutes.

I would assume that pilots wearing more enclosed flight suits-- Y-Wing and A-Wing pilots, for example-- have sealers that automatically drop down and seal the suit upon ejection.

I'm unsure about the open-faced clone flight suit worn by some ARC-170 pilots; either a faceplate snaps down upon ejection, or the openfaced helmets (seen solely in Revenge of the Sith) are an example of artistic license.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-11-29 03:25pm

Artistic license (or screw up, really). Artists draw TIEs like that all the time-- and this is a Marvel comic, after all.

Indeed, it is a Marvel comic, a series which has frankly appalling consistency with the rest of the universe. That a source from Marvel should be said to be more valid than one from the X-Wing series is daft. Granted, the X-Wing series isn't known for it's technical consistency, but it is far better in this department than the Marvel series.

Either way, not a single one of these sources proves that ALL TIE's have ejector seats, rather that SOME are equipped with them. There are various sources which clearly show the existence of TIEs modified with improvements such as combat-rated shields and hyperdrives; this could easily be the case with these TIE's. To suggest that all TIE Fighters (however many billion(?) of them there are) are identical within each class is somewhat ridiculous.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-11-29 03:34pm

I fail to see how a single instance of a pilot musing about lacking an ejection seat in his craft casts doubt on no less than six sources that indicate otherwise. If anything, the TIE Wedge is piloting is the odd one out (it was captured from a rogue warlord, after all), not the other ones.

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-11-29 11:50pm

What I don't get it why the module the pilot sits in (in the TIE) couldn't just detach. It's not like it would be difficult to be detachable. It would also be able to contain extra oxygen, even a couple small maneuvering thrusters to get them away from the battle, not to mention a little more protection from the vaccuum of space. And it would also be a place for a black box (if TIEs even have those).

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2006-11-30 12:08am

Darth Judas wrote:What I don't get it why the module the pilot sits in (in the TIE) couldn't just detach. It's not like it would be difficult to be detachable. It would also be able to contain extra oxygen, even a couple small maneuvering thrusters to get them away from the battle, not to mention a little more protection from the vaccuum of space. And it would also be a place for a black box (if TIEs even have those).

It's also quite larger than the pilot and makes an excellent target... plus, what if it's the cockpit ball that's damaged? What's the pilot to do, jack open the hatch and clamber out with a few bottles of air? Ejection seat really rather works better...

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-11-30 12:09am

Darth Judas wrote:What I don't get it why the module the pilot sits in (in the TIE) couldn't just detach. It's not like it would be difficult to be detachable. It would also be able to contain extra oxygen, even a couple small maneuvering thrusters to get them away from the battle, not to mention a little more protection from the vaccuum of space. And it would also be a place for a black box (if TIEs even have those).

Considering the fact that a large portion of TIE fighter's actual mass, and the section of it enemy fighters would invariably aim for, is consituted by the piloting cabin, such an ejection system would be next to worthless. Putting aside the increased production costs of outfitting the fighters in such a manner and the probable decrease in overall structural integrity, the system would only be effective in the event of an impact that was minor enough to only damage the wing sections of the fighter, yet severe enough to necessitate their detachment; a rather uncommon occurance, to say the least. Moreover, since the piloting module is quite a bit larger than a human in an encounter suit, it would be far easier for an enemy to destroy it in the thick of battle, even considering the benefits of the pod's drives.

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-11-30 01:47am

I guess that's all understandable, but still. The cockpit module, if detached, is...

...oh, wait, nevermind, I just looked at a schematic. I always thought that the cockpit was a lot smaller in comparison to the main body of the TIE. I mean, I know how wide it is, we get a good idea of that from the films, but I thought that it didn't go back into the TIE body quite so far.

I should've looked at a schematic earlier. Sorry to subject you all to that brain fart.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-11-30 06:29am

Right, so what we're left with is another situation where there is no definitive 'All TIE's have ejector seats/No TIE's have ejector seats/ Some TIE's are modified to have ejector seats' statement. The only sources we have show specific examples of TIE's having or not having ejector seats. I would suggest that Wedge's comments are more valid than the comics presented, as he IS talking about TIEs in general, and not a specific craft. I'm sure many here have a low opinion of the character as a reliable source, however as one of the Alliance's most senior Starfighter Command officers he is in a position to offer valid evidence on the matter.

However, if I'm correct, the rules of canon place the comics presented as at an equal level to the novels unless they are directly contradicted. Consequently, both sources are equally valid, and it comes down to a matter of interpretation. I would suggest that the best way to resolve this is to go with TIE's in general not being equipped with ejector seats, but some models (the TIE/In in the quote from Corran for example) and modified versions are equipped with them. This easily explains Wedge's statement, as well as the comic images, and I'm sure any other source can fit easily into this explanation.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-11-30 10:43am

Lazarus, remember...visuals remain a higher source because they are objective, while dialogue can be subjective.

Even with Wedge's statement, it's a far too broad statement given we saw one part of his statement completely contradicted by the movies(shields) and another part having brought some doubt(ejection) by ESB's asteroids.

While one can say this is not all encompassing, there is some suspect of the validity of Wedge's statement because of direct contradictory evidence.

So in matters of interpretation, visuals will always remain higher then statements of a opinionated nature.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-11-30 11:18am

According to Wegde in X-Wing TIE-pilots are "throw-away-pilot", while according to sources like the ISB they're the best 10% the empire has to offer.

How credible is he at all, if he has only fought the empire's outer-rim-forces or those of the break-away warlords?

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-11-30 01:17pm

visuals remain a higher source because they are objective, while dialogue can be subjective.

Even with comics? It just doesn't make sense to me that you can use the 'clouded window/ artistic license' rule, and at the same time say the image is objective and more valid than text. Seems like something of a get-out clause: 'I think the image shows this, and I can ignore evidence against this interpretation because of artistic license', which you can't do with text. For example, in a hypothetical example, I think the first image presented is actually of a TIE/In, which have been stated elsewhere to at least sometimes be equipped with ejectors, but the artist has used artistic license to draw a TIE...

Either way, I'm pretty sure my interpretation fits the sources, as the only absolute statement is from Wedge.

darthbob88 · Post by **darthbob88** » 2006-11-30 01:20pm

FTeik wrote:According to Wegde in X-Wing TIE-pilots are "throw-away-pilot", while according to sources like the ISB they're the best 10% the empire has to offer.

How credible is he at all, if he has only fought the empire's outer-rim-forces or those of the break-away warlords?

He also fought against the Imps at Yavin, Hoth, Endor, and any one of those major battles. Hell, they'd have to send their best in at Endor, because they were expecting the Rebels to come in.

Also, objectivity comes in to play. The ISB is put out by the Empire, presumably? While Wedge is boasting about the Rebel starfighters? Either one will inflate their own skills at the expense of the other. So, don't take either to be gospel truth. However, I would say that TIE pilots are better than most. There is no good case for building a superb dogfighter like the TIE/In, and then handing it over to an ignorant farmboy after an hour's training. It's lunacy to seriously suggest that.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-11-30 03:27pm

ISB is a Rebel document, actually, written by Mon Mothma's confidant and speechwriter.

Bottom line is, the only bit of evidence we have telling us TIEs lack ejection seats is that single line of Wedge's thoughts. Since Wedge eats up Rebel propaganda (as evidenced by his musings on the disposability of TIE pilots) and is a fallible individual rather than a direct observation, I'm inclined to look at the combined evidence and conclude that he's mistaken. You could even imagine that, as soon as we move from his thoughts to another characters, he sees the ejection lever and remembers that TIEs do have ejection systems

Out of universe, of course, the explanation is simply that Allston was unaware of TIE ejection systems. He hasn't commented on this subject since that first book.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-11-30 03:39pm

Should we think about how retarded it would be to offer ejectors as an after-market feature? The roof needs to be modified, there have to be charges installed, it's a totally new seat, and WHO THE FUCK BUILDS A FIGHTER WITHOUT AN EJECTOR. I can just see the French building an after-market conversion for some plane without an ejector.

The only evidence against is Wedge being a lameass. Wow, clearly there's a thriving market for ejector-less fighters, and we shouldn't just ignore him. Nothing about what anyone says is 'absolute', and Wedge is an idiot.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-11-30 04:23pm

At the risk of saying something already said...

It seems reasonable to me that TIEs could have ejection systems. The pilots seem to be wearing sealed suits, and the way Obi-Wan popped out of his Jedi starfighter (which seems to be a TIE predecessor) in ROTS suggests an ejection system.

Biggs specifically told Porkins to "Eject!" in ANH when his X-Wing was damaged by the Death Star's surface guns. How he would be expected to survive without a sealed helmet is a bit of a mystery, but X-Wings apparently do have an ejection mechanism that the pilot can activate.

Sikon · Post by **Sikon** » 2006-11-30 04:44pm

While there is some use for having ejection systems in TIEs, the value is still drastically less than on a terrestrial fighter. On a terrestrial fighter, ejection systems are important since a heavily damaged aircraft will otherwise kill the pilot upon crashing into the ground. In space, the pilot would usually just continue coasting away, whether or not he ejects.

The main scenarios for ejection being possibly worthwhile seem much less common:

Atmospheric combat rather than space combat
A fighter damaged in a manner going to cause a delayed explosion later
Preventing collision with another object in space by the rather limited change in trajectory upon ejecting
A method of indicating surrender to honorable enemies

Anyone might still prefer an ejection system, but, if there were some TIEs made without ejection systems, such would be like how the regular model doesn't have shields to save mass/cost.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-11-30 05:27pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:On a slightly related note, do we see any ejections from Rebel X-wings, Y-wings, or snowspeeders? We know that larger craft (including the Falcon) have escape pods.
EU sources say they can eject, but I don't think there are any examples in the films. Doesn't really matter much anyway- it's not like the Rebels can slap on the face mask to make the suit airtight before pulling the ejection lever before they're space dust.

X-Wings at least can eject. In ANH. When Porkins is about to die Biggs asks him "Eject, can you Eject?"

plus about the ESB TIE dude, still if he was able to eject and wanted to. I really dont think he had enough time to say "ok ill eject" i mean hes flying fast the Astroid is going fast, theres not time to react

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-12-01 01:36pm

the way Obi-Wan popped out of his Jedi starfighter (which seems to be a TIE predecessor) in ROTS suggests an ejection system.

When was this? I only remember when he used the force to leap high out of the fighter when it crashed into the hangar, and that certainly wasn't an ejector system.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the standard 'go with what is reasonable' doesn't apply to TIE ejectors for the reasons Sikon stated. Consequently, we're left with two sources, comics and Wedge, both of which can be safely termed unreliable. Unless anyone has any more sources dealing with the matter, I fail to see how my suggested explanation can be said to be invalid. When I was speaking of modified TIE's, I was referring to those seen in the likes of Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist. These canonically exist, but whether the modifications were indeed made after-market (not really practical) or beforehand to the TIE design (more reasonable), I don't know.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-12-01 02:53pm

Lazarus wrote:
the way Obi-Wan popped out of his Jedi starfighter (which seems to be a TIE predecessor) in ROTS suggests an ejection system.
When was this? I only remember when he used the force to leap high out of the fighter when it crashed into the hangar, and that certainly wasn't an ejector system.

That's the incident I meant. It may well have been a force-assisted leap, but the cockpit certainly opened in a hurry, and I would think that even for a jedi it would be awkward to spring out of a cockpit like that. Still, I haven't seen it recently enough to say with any assurance.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-12-01 05:13pm

A-9 Vigilance Interceptors are specifically noted for not having ejector seats. Since this was the new Imperial craft, it suggests that seats was the norm.

Also; you don't throw out 7 sources in favour of one unless you really, absolutely, have to. Which we don't.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-12-01 05:25pm

nightmare wrote: Also; you don't throw out 7 sources in favour of one unless you really, absolutely, have to. Which we don't.

We don't Throw out any source that we don't have to.

The solution seems quite simple some TIEs have ejectors others don't. It's hardly difficult to beleive different production runs build slight different models of eyeballs especially over the good decade or so the sources cover.

Rather than trying to make out that Wedge is an idiot who can't see and ejector in the ship he's sitting in, we assume that the ship he flew in Wraith Squadron actually didn't have an ejector. Although since we know from the very same book Zsinj was actually manufactoring his own TIEs this doesn't imply all TIE Fighters lack ejector seats.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-12-01 05:42pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
nightmare wrote: Also; you don't throw out 7 sources in favour of one unless you really, absolutely, have to. Which we don't.
We don't Throw out any source that we don't have to.

The solution seems quite simple some TIEs have ejectors others don't. It's hardly difficult to beleive different production runs build slight different models of eyeballs especially over the good decade or so the sources cover.

Rather than trying to make out that Wedge is an idiot who can't see and ejector in the ship he's sitting in, we assume that the ship he flew in Wraith Squadron actually didn't have an ejector. Although since we know from the very same book Zsinj was actually manufactoring his own TIEs this doesn't imply all TIE Fighters lack ejector seats.

Actually that would be the best way to reconcile this.

Wedge was not a part of the Imperial military thus his statement is from second hand reports and just his own musings.

Add that we can consider Zsinj was cutting corners with these TIEs(why, who knows, but given he likely had less resources perhaps it took less resources to make them this way). And these lacked that feature.

We don't want to throw out evidence but when there are visuals that contradicts a man's musings, especially one who doesn't have first hand knowledge, it's bit harder to justify one man's thoughts.

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2006-12-01 07:06pm

Add to the fact that there were TIEs in service that weren't assembled to Sienar Fleet Systems standards, for example Novoil Cluster Stargoods ("72 TIE Fighters for the price of 70", their commercial read), a company that bought large stocks of TIEs and presumably built them up according to their own specs. (With/without ejection seats... with/without shields... with/without glove compartment - we have no idea what Novoil's refurbished TIEs had)

Although Novoil sold to primarily local planetary defense forces, there might probably be Imperial warlords who purchased from them in bulk if these warlords did not have access to Sienar's marketing network post-Endor.

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2006-12-01 07:24pm

It could also be the idea that the basic TIE Fighter has numerous variants. If you accept the West End Games RPG materials, there's various models ranging from the T.I.E early model, to the TIE/rc, TIE/gt, and the TIE/in.

It also makes sense that different 'batches' will take advantage of new technology and be retrofitted. After all, there's a fair difference between say an early model M-60 or T-55 tank and the very last models. That doesn't take into account production both licenced by Sienar Fleet Systems, and factories seized by warlords, or stock hoarded by planetary militia and pirate groups.