Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-02-17 10:50pm

Lord Insanity wrote:
2020-02-17 10:44pm
Its kind of sad when the comedy joke writers have a better grasp of continuity that the actual movie writers did.
I did like their points about the inconsistency of the new Force powers, and the Palpatine scenes were pretty funny. Also, they mocked ReyLo at the end, so yay.

It bothered me though that they seemed to be going with blaming TLJ for some of RoS's flaws (say what you will about TLJ, it was Abrams, not Johnson, who made this film). And that they made no mention of my biggest complaint against the film, which is the cutting of Rose.
When you compare the sequel trilogy to something like Cobra Kai where they clearly told a new story but still respected the continuity of the original Karate Kid movies it just illustrates how poorly planned the whole trilogy was.
I'd say that the best example of "doing justice to the classic material/fan service while still moving things forward" I've seen is probably Doctor Who's "Day of the Doctor". I sometimes wonder if the rest of Moffat's run (a few episodes aside) was so weak because he put all of his effort and talent into Day, or if it was just that the BBC was exercising more stringent editorial oversight due to its being the 50th. Anniversary story.

Best example of "successfully landing a satisfying series finale", honestly, is probably Gravity Falls.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by ray245 » 2020-02-18 07:39am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-02-17 10:50pm
It bothered me though that they seemed to be going with blaming TLJ for some of RoS's flaws (say what you will about TLJ, it was Abrams, not Johnson, who made this film). And that they made no mention of my biggest complaint against the film, which is the cutting of Rose.
You can see it as a blame on the upper level of management above the directors, which there is clearly none.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by chimericoncogene » 2020-03-14 10:51am

Just finished watching TROS, thus completing my slog through the Sequel Trilogy.

TROS was okay. The story was okay, and the ending was okay - I really liked the "galaxy concentrates enormous and overwhelming force against Imperial Redoubt because hyperdrive is awesome". The execution of the story was lackluster and confused, par for the course for the Sequel Trilogy.

I was the target demographic when the prequels came out, and back then, I really really loved Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith (TPM was boring as heck, I'm sorry Lucas). When watched together with the remastered ANH, TESB (the best of them all), and ROTJ, those movies clicked together pretty well. To my rose-tinted eyes, the technology, the setting, and the worldbuilding of I-VI meshed pretty seamlessly together, regardless of the flawed acting (which to my eyes got a lot better in II and III). The stories of I-III also generally seemed to make reasonable sense. Space battles were fought in a reasonable manner (even ROTS could be excused for the repulsorlifted melee over Coruscant, given that it was a pivotal battle over a capital planet with millions of ships filling the frickkin' sky. Ground warfare was insane (Geonosis was idiotic), but whatever, it looked cool.

The Sequel Trilogy, viewed through (hopefully) less idiotic but more judgmental and eyes, did not feel organic to the Star Wars universe. It did not jive with the prequels, which established a vibrant, wealthy and heavily industrialized set of core systems with trillions of people per world on-screen (that element I loved so much). It did not jive with the sequels, which established a reasonably well-resourced Rebel military arm with carriers and capital ships (Hoth had a frickkin' planetary defense shield and ion cannon, and that base on Yavin 4 was on a monumental stone building a kilometer tall), and a galaxy-spanning rebel movement fighting against a galaxy-sized Imperial war machine. You couldn't really feel the sinews of industry in the sequel trilogy, but together with the prequels and EU stuff, yeah sure the Empire can crank out 900-kilometer wide Death Stars.

I believe that the Sequel Trilogy failed when it failed to capitalize on the Prequels. It should have used the Prequels as heavily as it tried to ape the OT. I wanted more Coruscant, more Galactic Senate. More Kamino, more KDY, more Clone Wars references. This is a Galaxy. Not all of it has to be the damned Outer Rim and Unknown Regions.

I'm weird, because I didn't really find fault with the story they wanted to tell. Make Rey nameless, make her a Skywalker, make her a Palpatine, I never gave a crap. Storytellers gotta story. I can tolerate all the Skywalkers dying, the Emperor dying, even the silly little power couple thing Rey had going on with Ben (Kylo Ren).

But Star Wars... Star Wars is heavily setting-dependent. And they screwed with the setting and the toolbox - unnecessarily. They had one job: write stories in a frickkin' setting. And they screwed that up. They changed what the Force could do (all those mirror battles were just weird, and Force ghosts interacting with material objects was uncalled for). They changed what space wars looked like (that damned hyperspace ramming thing). They had people drop on Star Destroyers without shields and made it look like a ground battle and not a boarding action (forgivable I guess, but oh dear god it was stupid). They stuck with boring superweapons instead of trying to come up with interesting ones, or even use nicer ones from the EU. A galaxy gun (hyperspace gun if you want copyright), a world devastator (world eater for copyright), a holocron - any of those things they could have grabbed. Maybe renamed for licensing, I dunno? They changed names unnecessarily. Imperial Remnant or Imperial Provisional Government sounds way better than First Order to my ears.

All the stories they wanted to tell: Luke screwed up, Uncaring New Republic, Cash-Strapped Resistance, resurgence of the Imperial Remnant, Deep Core Byss/Unknown Regions Imperial Redoubt with an Emperor Reborn / Rey's story... it could easily have been told without changing the setting in such a contrived manner for no good reason. A few scenes of Leia on Holonet running out of the Senate building in a huff would have made so much sense. (And Imperial Redoubt and Imperial Remnant should have been the names, IMO). And everything just keeps looking like it came out of left field. I mean, oh look there was an Imperial Redoubt all along! No obvious hints? No sign of a gargantuan industrial base (at least we got to see a droid factory and a clone factory in ATOC)? The story needed discipline.

And ARC-170s and V-wings look cooler (and look more sensible) than T-wings. I just hate that split-D intake so much. Come on, the EU had E-wings! Use them! That's a matter of opinion, though. You can even be lazy and keep the Xylon SDs - just show pictures of refits programs or something. You can be lazy with the assets and use the same tech over and over while changing the story. It's a common setting! A big fleet is as scary as a superweapon!

Marvel took inspiration from the comics. Inspiration. Not a straight copy. The Sequel Trilogy could have done likewise. And they could have used the Prequels. It's only been what, seventy years since the Clone Wars?

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Ralin » 2020-03-14 11:22am

chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-03-14 10:51am
They stuck with boring superweapons instead of trying to come up with interesting ones, or even use nicer ones from the EU. A galaxy gun (hyperspace gun if you want copyright),
Wasn't Starkiller Base basically the galaxy gun? Never read most of Dark Empire, but sounded like about the same concept.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by chimericoncogene » 2020-03-14 11:45am

Ralin wrote:
2020-03-14 11:22am

Wasn't Starkiller Base basically the galaxy gun? Never read most of Dark Empire, but sounded like about the same concept.
Neither did I. Wookieepedia all the way. Spent waaay too much of my misspent youth on that site.

Yeah, you're right; that's more a style complaint, I guess... but why did they have to make it round? Or a planet? Or a base? Why didn't they just build a Galaxy Gun? The story need not have been changed... make the gun ground based if you have to. Better yet, make it a tower fifty kilometers tall. Or an orbital ring. Or a Dyson Sphere. Or a Nicoll-Dyson laser. But a planet-sized superweapon again?

Changes to existing media for the sake of style alone, and done poorly. Build worlds with the toolbox, and tell whatever stories you want in those worlds. The tools are fine, and fans grok the tools. No point changing the tools - and changing them poorly.

And you can sell a Galaxy Gun toy. A Starkiller Base toy is harder to sell.

If you want to pull Deus Ex Machinas with no consequences, just scrounge up some lost tech. Centerpoint Station. Weird Sith Hyperspace Bomb for Holdor to sacrifice herself with. Anything that only works once and doesn't break the world.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Q99 » 2020-03-26 05:38pm

Making it a planet (or rather built into a planet) allows it to be bigger while still basically a Death Star, and TFA was definitely aiming for the nostalgia buttons. Too hard, I think most agree.

On the Holdo maneuver, we did see it used again in the montage of people taking down FO ships in the galaxy. It seems the way they're selling it now is 'it's doable but low-odds.' Like it seems like you need a sufficiently big ship and it's low accuracy. It does obsolete Supremacy-class vessels, but if the Reddus had been aiming at a normal SD, it'd have missed.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Soontir C'boath » 2020-04-17 04:33pm

I need to get around to watching this, but Disney lost when they recycled things over and over again. We saw DS1 and DS2 blow up, did we really needed Planetoid thingy too?

I remember stating several years ago here that what I needed and what the franchise needed was new blood and new settings. It's a freakin' galaxy wide world. You can't tell me there are trillions of stories to tell. Pick one. Any one. That's different from the Skywalker/Palpatine shit. Which is why I'm glad and I find it funny that Mandalorian, which consists of characters and actors that no one couldn't care less about and that they thought wouldn't be a major success, actually turned out to be a major success.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Avrjoe » 2020-04-17 05:14pm

I remember an interview were Timothy Zahn said Grand Admiral Thrawn came from a need to have a competent villain who was very different from Vader and Palpatine. The pair were Iconic in their rolls of Dark Knight and Evil WIzard. Rather than trying to top what the movies did so well you had to take things in a different direction. Thus something in a Professor Moriarty mold rather then another wizard or another dark knight.

Most of what 7-9 aped of the original trilogy either came off as a lame copy of better ideas. What was original had potential but was mired in poor choices of how to integrate this with the existing material. Add in a lack of central vision to make the set of films flow cohesively and coherently to tell an over arching story that becomes a mythology and we have a tragically flawed project.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-05-04 09:59pm

Avrjoe wrote:
2020-04-17 05:14pm
I remember an interview were Timothy Zahn said Grand Admiral Thrawn came from a need to have a competent villain who was very different from Vader and Palpatine. The pair were Iconic in their rolls of Dark Knight and Evil WIzard. Rather than trying to top what the movies did so well you had to take things in a different direction. Thus something in a Professor Moriarty mold rather then another wizard or another dark knight.
A lot of current (Marvel+Disney EU) comic authors are failing to understand what makes Vader Vader. Deep down, he's still Anakin Skywalker, only with it turned up to 11.

Also, many of their stories are tropes already:

1.) Vader shows up, usually with a full battalion or whatever of Stormtroopers.
2.) Bad guys attack, stormtroopers get massacred, with only Vader surviving.
3.) Vader gets the shit beat out of him.
4.) Vader wins only at the last minute with use of Force Grip and last reserves of strength, etc.

EDIT: One of the big things they played around in the old EU was that unlike other jedi commanders, Anakin felt a bond with his Clonetroopers and would never expend them the way other Jedis would. That should have carried over into Vader's persona.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by chimericoncogene » 2020-05-05 01:57am

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-05-04 09:59pm

A lot of current (Marvel+Disney EU) comic authors are failing to understand what makes Vader Vader. Deep down, he's still Anakin Skywalker, only with it turned up to 11.

EDIT: One of the big things they played around in the old EU was that unlike other jedi commanders, Anakin felt a bond with his Clonetroopers and would never expend them the way other Jedis would. That should have carried over into Vader's persona.
That's still canon; the Clone Wars cartoon (the last five episodes of S7 are pretty good, btw) has a lot of Anakin and Obi-Wan bonding with their troops (there was actually an entire arc about a heartless Jedi commander who spent lives like water).

I agree completely that Anakin's traits should have carried over into Vader, and I think it's a crying shame if a lot of new EU misses the mark on that.

On a side note; does the universe feel... sterile and empty in the Sequel Trilogy to anyone? Was anyone actually living on the planets they visited (that once-in-forty-years festival notwithstanding - couldn't they have picked something more slice-of-life)? But then again, the OT's worlds were pretty empty too - no CGI crowds, sparsely populated Outer Rim. But at least their cantina was in a town, not in the middle of nowhere.

I love the Prequels (rewatched them recently; better than I remember) and their excessive worldbuilding, and the fact that the worlds they showed were full of people - actual people doing normal people things like buying overpriced hot dogs, betting on podraces, yelling at idiot drivers in Coruscanti traffic - was one of the big positives of the Prequels for me. As I have said before, I think the ST suffered greatly when they decided to ignore the Prequels.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Adam Reynolds » 2020-05-05 03:37am

chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-05-05 01:57am
On a side note; does the universe feel... sterile and empty in the Sequel Trilogy to anyone? Was anyone actually living on the planets they visited (that once-in-forty-years festival notwithstanding - couldn't they have picked something more slice-of-life)? But then again, the OT's worlds were pretty empty too - no CGI crowds, sparsely populated Outer Rim. But at least their cantina was in a town, not in the middle of nowhere.
I'd also agree about the places they visit feeling empty. Mos Eisley felt like a city even as it was in the middle of nowhere, as did Bespin in what little we saw of it. You can't say the same about Maz Kanata's castle.

The only place I can think of that actually felt populated was the casino planet, but something about it just didn't feel like Star Wars.
I love the Prequels (rewatched them recently; better than I remember) and their excessive worldbuilding, and the fact that the worlds they showed were full of people - actual people doing normal people things like buying overpriced hot dogs, betting on podraces, yelling at idiot drivers in Coruscanti traffic - was one of the big positives of the Prequels for me. As I have said before, I think the ST suffered greatly when they decided to ignore the Prequels.
The problem wasn't that they ignored the prequels, it is that they tried so desperately to not be the prequels that they ignored everything the prequels did right.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by ray245 » 2020-05-05 04:12am

Adam Reynolds wrote:
2020-05-05 03:37am
chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-05-05 01:57am
On a side note; does the universe feel... sterile and empty in the Sequel Trilogy to anyone? Was anyone actually living on the planets they visited (that once-in-forty-years festival notwithstanding - couldn't they have picked something more slice-of-life)? But then again, the OT's worlds were pretty empty too - no CGI crowds, sparsely populated Outer Rim. But at least their cantina was in a town, not in the middle of nowhere.
I'd also agree about the places they visit feeling empty. Mos Eisley felt like a city even as it was in the middle of nowhere, as did Bespin in what little we saw of it. You can't say the same about Maz Kanata's castle.
That's the case with many modern directors. The setting and world-building exist solely for the sake of the plot. You do not get a sense of world-building beyond the plot, whereas in the Star Wars movies done by Lucas, he always tried to give people a sense that there is more to the planet than what we saw on screen.

The closest we got was Rogue One, but that's partly due to Gareth Edwards being a director with an eye for visuals and scale. Look at most of Lucas' Star Wars movies and see how much attention he give to establishing shots.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by chimericoncogene » 2020-05-05 05:26am

ray245 wrote:
2020-05-05 04:12am
That's the case with many modern directors. The setting and world-building exist solely for the sake of the plot. You do not get a sense of world-building beyond the plot, whereas in the Star Wars movies done by Lucas, he always tried to give people a sense that there is more to the planet than what we saw on screen.

The closest we got was Rogue One, but that's partly due to Gareth Edwards being a director with an eye for visuals and scale. Look at most of Lucas' Star Wars movies and see how much attention he give to establishing shots.
It's pretty clear that the R1 people knew what they were doing much moreso than the ST people. From the use of an ISD-I model (not the ISD-II with barbettes) to letting us see the Rebel starfighter squadrons as they were meant to be used (as a hit-and-run pirate force backing up a wider insurgency) to letting us see that famous dysfunctional Nazi-style empire building within the Empire, to the use of a Juggernaut prisoner transport... that was all absolutely beautiful.

They understood the material they were working with, and it shows.

Even the beach planet was good - perhaps done in jest with regards to the single-biome planet and the overly-specialized stormtrooper.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by ray245 » 2020-05-05 05:51am

chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-05-05 05:26am
It's pretty clear that the R1 people knew what they were doing much moreso than the ST people. From the use of an ISD-I model (not the ISD-II with barbettes) to letting us see the Rebel starfighter squadrons as they were meant to be used (as a hit-and-run pirate force backing up a wider insurgency) to letting us see that famous dysfunctional Nazi-style empire building within the Empire, to the use of a Juggernaut prisoner transport... that was all absolutely beautiful.

They understood the material they were working with, and it shows.

Even the beach planet was good - perhaps done in jest with regards to the single-biome planet and the overly-specialized stormtrooper.
This is why it's important to know what kind of directors are suitable for Star Wars and which directors aren't. Anyone who watched ST09 should know that JJ Abrams is not the ideal person to tell a Star Wars story, because he does not have any idea on how to do good world-building.

Good World-building is the oxygen that Star Wars need to survive, because the value of the Star Wars brand isn't the story itself, but more so in what the universe can offer to story-tellers. The sequel era is unlikely to be popular in the future because there is barely any world-building in it. Rian Johnson is a good story-teller, but like Abrams he is not good at doing good world-building.

A franchise like Star Wars thrives on world-building beyond all else. It is not a character-driven setting like the MCU, because you can tell all sorts of stories with different kinds of characters. Rogue 1 proved you can tell a story of random unknown rebels and make it work. Clone Wars created an army of characters from a bunch of nameless Clones.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-05-05 10:09am

chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-05-05 01:57am
I agree completely that Anakin's traits should have carried over into Vader, and I think it's a crying shame if a lot of new EU misses the mark on that.
The new Disney+Marvel EU is kind of weird.

We've seen the DARTH VADER comic rebooted no less than three times so we have:

DARTH VADER (2015) x 25 issues
DARTH VADER (2018) x 25 issues
DARTH VADER (2020) - ONGOING

But here's the thing, they can't even keep track of their shared universe!

DARTH VADER (2015) opens just after ANH, Vader's returned from the destruction of the Death Star, and he has to batten down the hatches; so he hires Boba Fett (as one of Jabba's best bounty hunters) to find out the identity of the pilot who destroyed the Death Star and if possible, capture him.

This, alone, is a major issue. Wouldn't the Rebels want to trumpet the names of the survivors of Red Squadron as propaganda as the "Beings who took down a battlestation?"?

Why would Vader need to hire Boba Fett to do find it out then?

This is where I think a lot of comic book writers and novelists fail. They come up with a COOL IDEA, and because they're working alone, with usually only light editorial direction; the COOL IDEA is pushed even if it makes no sense.

In a more collaborative project, like THE CLONE WARS animated series or an AAA Title like MASS EFFECT games, there's so much to do that other people will "sanity check" your work and figure out where you can "bump it up" or "take it back a notch."

If I was LucasFilm's Editorial In Chief (EIC), I'd tell the writer basically what I told you guys above, regarding Rebel Propaganda and I'd come up with a suggestion to keep the basic idea of Boba Fett:

Vader hears the propagandas of Red Squadron, including the name Skywalker. He knows that the pilot who blew up the DS1 was strong in the Force, and maybe they say that the kid was from Tatooine as part of the whole "we are all a galaxy united" propaganda angle -- kids from Tatooine fighting alongside kids from Corellia or Coruscant.

Vader is now very suspicious (TM).

But he can't just drop everything to head to Tatooine because:

A.) He's now in a delicate political situation as the Emperor finally dissolved the skeleton of the Old Republic, only for the Death Star to get blown up about what 72 hours later? Lots of fires for him to put out for Palpatine.

B.) He can't just go to Tatooine unless he has a legitmitate reason, because otherwise Palpatine will start to get suspicious about his apprentice.

So he's forced to use Boba Fett.

Why Boba Fett? Throw in a few one liners about past jobs.

Vader above all, values loyalty AND competence. He's willing to pay massively extra for a simple job (snoop around Tatooine) if he knows the person is competent (Fett) and can keep their mouth shut (Fett again).

But anway, in VADER 2015, you get this scene:
Fett reports to Vader and reports that Luke got away.

"I lost him."

"That is most disappointing."

"He got lucky."

"Did you bring me anything of value, Bounty Hunter?"

"Not much. Just his name."

"Skywalker."

*dead silence*

"We're done here, then."

*Fett turns and leaves as Vader stares out the window*

Some flashbacks to Clone Wars stuff, about Padme telling Anakin that she's pregnant; then a flashback to ROTS where he asked about Padme and got told that he killed her in his anger.

*clenches fist*

*Viewport spiderwebs with cracks from Force pressure*

"Skywalker."

A quick conversation with the Emperor ("I sense your anger. GREAT Anger. Have you something to say?") followed by staring out the window and some more flashbacks.

"I have a son."

"He will be mine."

"It will ALL be mine."
That scene works as you can tell it's when Darth Vader's loyalty to the Emperor shatters, and he starts the typical apprentice plotting to overthrow the master after twenty years of following orders.

You can keep most of it; all you have to do is edit it so that Fett's report isn't:

"Hey, I found the house of "old Ben" in the dune sea, and explored it, got into a fight with the Kid inside 'old Ben's house', found out his name, and he escaped me."

The idea of Luke returning to Ben Kenobi's house makes sense; and it needs to happen at one point in the space between each of the original trilogy films.

But here's the thing.

Right after the destruction of the Death Star, Tatooine is radioactively hot in terms of safety; as the Imperial military attempts to reconstruct the Millennium Falcon's path and the background of 'Luke Skywalker'.

So Luke shouldn't be there at all to have a fight with Boba Fett (again, the rule of cool needs to be toned down).

Instead, Fett carefully investigates the background of Skywalker -- you can intersperse this with the "official" Imperial Security investigation, showing the difference between official Imperial methods and Fett's.

Fett then reports to Vader that:

The kid's name is definitely Skywalker.
He definitely is from Tatooine.
He definitely lived at the Lars homestead.
"Old Ben" did live at a house in the Dune Sea
I investigated Old Ben's house and found this in a hidden compartment that your investigators missed -- *hands over a jedi holocron*

Basically, Vader hired Fett to "verify" everything that the "official" investigation did. Because he's starting to distrust the Emperor just a little bit.

So back to the MARVEL/DISNEY EU shared universe wonkiness.

The very next issue of DARTH VADER 2015 -- has Vader with his henchmen visiting the Lars homestead on Tatooine, then Old Ben's house in the Dune sea.

So why am I mentioning all this?

DARTH VADER 2020 #1 opens just after Empire Strikes Back -- he's tried to turn Luke to the Dark Side, and failed.

There's a conversation/monologue by Vader to his droid assistant:
"I will find him [Luke] again when the time is right. For now, we will track down everyone who HID the boy from me...."

*internal voice -- ....everyone who made him WEAK...*

"...and DESTROY them."
He then goes back to Tatooine and once again revisits the Lars homestead.

Didn't we just do this five years ago in DARTH VADER 2015, also by the same company (DISNEY/MARVEL)?

After some fighting at the Lars homestead with some raiders (Lol wat), we return to Coruscant, specifically to "the Apartment of Senator Padme Amidala, sealed since her death."

Wait, wouldn't Vader already have done this in DARTH VADER 2015 immediately after he found out he had a son?
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Galvatron » 2020-05-05 11:01am

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-05-05 10:09am
This, alone, is a major issue. Wouldn't the Rebels want to trumpet the names of the survivors of Red Squadron as propaganda as the "Beings who took down a battlestation?"?
Not if the Rebellion wanted them to be able to show their faces in another populated system again for the rest of the war. Considering the sorts of missions that Luke was sent on almost immediately after the Battle of Yavin, I'd say his anonymity was crucial to his survival.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-05-05 11:57am

Galvatron wrote:
2020-05-05 11:01am
Not if the Rebellion wanted them to be able to show their faces in another populated system again for the rest of the war. Considering the sorts of missions that Luke was sent on almost immediately after the Battle of Yavin, I'd say his anonymity was crucial to his survival.
Good point. Perhaps this is where "Rogue Squadron" got started? Perhaps the Rebellion simply said in their press release:

"Rogue Squadron destroyed the death star"

as a bit of misdirection that took a life of it's own; forcing them to redesignate Red Squadron as Rogue Squadron for propagandas
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by chimericoncogene » 2020-05-05 12:35pm

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-05-05 11:57am
Galvatron wrote:
2020-05-05 11:01am
Not if the Rebellion wanted them to be able to show their faces in another populated system again for the rest of the war. Considering the sorts of missions that Luke was sent on almost immediately after the Battle of Yavin, I'd say his anonymity was crucial to his survival.
Good point. Perhaps this is where "Rogue Squadron" got started? Perhaps the Rebellion simply said in their press release:

"Rogue Squadron destroyed the death star"

as a bit of misdirection that took a life of it's own; forcing them to redesignate Red Squadron as Rogue Squadron for propagandas
Well, Imperial Intelligence should already be able to tell that a Rogue One was responsible for infiltrating the Imperial Beach Party Planet Data Server, so using "Rogue Squadron" as a cover would work swimmingly.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-05-05 01:59pm

chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-05-05 12:35pm
Rogue One was responsible for infiltrating the Imperial Beach Party Planet Data Server, so using "Rogue Squadron" as a cover would work swimmingly.
As much as I really love Rouge One, what was Tarkin's whole justification for firing the DS1 at Scarif?

I don't mean the "internal backstabbing politics against Krennic" but how'd he sell it to the rest of the Imperial Military and by extension, Vader/Palpatine?

That's something I've felt that the entire SW EU (new/old) has been too cavalier with -- making Imperials default to "the evil legions are expendable" mode too often.

I've seen one suggestion being that basically:

*Tarkin voice*

"The Rebels had gained complete control of the Imperial Cold Archives on Scarif.

Besides the complete schematics for this Battle Station, the Archives also also contained records of every classified black project within the Empire.

Due to the confusion of battle, I was unable to ascertain whether or not the breach was limited or unlimited. Therefore, I made an executive decision to destroy the archives to contain the data breach.

I regret the loss of life, but many more lives would have been lost if that data had been compromised."
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Galvatron » 2020-05-05 06:13pm

I don't think Tarkin had to sell much of anything given how brazen he was in destroying Alderaan. If there was any justifying to be done, I'd imagine there was little more to it than something like this:

Palpatine: "Was the destruction of our base on Scarif necessary, Governor?"
Tarkin: "It was sadly unavoidable, Your Majesty."
Palpatine: "Very well."

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by ray245 » 2020-05-06 07:11am



TLDR: They completely butchered everything John Williams did, and JJ Abrams was petty enough to remove every music cue from the prequels and The Last Jedi.

This is why I am upset with JJ Abrams. He wasted our last ever opportunity to hear interesting Star Wars music from John Williams.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Ace Pace » 2020-05-06 07:39am

I'm not sure I agree with his perspective that everything has a reason behind it in the original movie or in the PT.
Many of his arguments do explain why I, as a super fan, did not connect to the music.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-05-06 09:38am

Galvatron wrote:
2020-05-05 06:13pm
I don't think Tarkin had to sell much of anything given how brazen he was in destroying Alderaan. If there was any justifying to be done, I'd imagine there was little more to it than something like this:

Palpatine: "Was the destruction of our base on Scarif necessary, Governor?"
Tarkin: "It was sadly unavoidable, Your Majesty."
Palpatine: "Very well."
I'm not talking about justifying it to Evil Space Wizard Palpatine, or even to Evil Dark Knight Vader; but justifying it to the rest of the Imperial apparatus.

This is a major point that a lot of people in the New/Old EU don't "get", which also ties into my griping about Vader being hard to "get".

I think a lot of people (writers) go into Star Wars and write it as a Fantasy thing in Spaaaaace but with lightsabers instead of swords and ignore real world issues involved in being brutal for the point of brutality and scoring "evil" points.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Galvatron » 2020-05-06 11:31am

I know what you mean, but I don't think Tarkin would offer anything more than a perfunctory explanation to the rank and file. It's even possible that he used it to his favor by blaming the rebels for forcing his hand, thus turning Alderaan into an act of revenge for the loyal Imperials who died on Scarif.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-05-06 12:29pm

Galvatron wrote:
2020-05-06 11:31am
It's even possible that he used it to his favor by blaming the rebels for forcing his hand, thus turning Alderaan into an act of revenge for the loyal Imperials who died on Scarif.
That actually works really good; particularly for the Death Star crew, who aren't stupid and know that it fired on an Imperial military base days/hours ago.

More things to consider:

In ANH, Leia told Vader that "the Senate will hear of this!"

In ESB, Lando expected Vader to keep his word regarding the deal they had.

This meant that to a lot of people, the Senate still had the illusion of power right up to Alderaan; and also that someone was careful to cultivate a "public" image for Vader.

In addition to the "public" image, there's internal dissent.

While it's possible Vader spent his free time force choking disloyal officers, or the ISB spent tons of time torturing officers who made disparaging remarks, that's all time and effort that could be spent elsewhere.

It's just simpler and more efficient to avoid creating dissent, so that the NKVD/Gestapo/ISB/Ubiqtorate can spend their time actually hunting genuine threats rather than self-generated ones.

Ironically, Rise of Skywalker showed EXACTLY what happens if you're as brutal and cavalier with your men's lives as the New/Old EU Imperials are....

...your semi-trusted lieutenant pulls a General Hux on you. :D
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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