Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

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tezunegari
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Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by tezunegari »

A friend of mine is a huge Civilization fan and found this little beauty on reddit.com.
I've been playing the same game of Civilization II for almost 10 years. This is the result. wrote:I've been playing the same game of Civ II for 10 years. Though long outdated, I grew fascinated with this particular game because by the time Civ III was released, I was already well into the distant future. I then thought that it might be interesting to see just how far into the future I could get and see what the ramifications would be. Naturally I play other games and have a life, but I often return to this game when I'm not doing anything and carry on. The results are as follows.

The world is a hellish nightmare of suffering and devastation.

There are 3 remaining super nations in the year 3991 A.D, each competing for the scant resources left on the planet after dozens of nuclear wars have rendered vast swaths of the world uninhabitable wastelands.

-The ice caps have melted over 20 times (somehow) due primarily to the many nuclear wars. As a result, every inch of land in the world that isn't a mountain is inundated swamp land, useless to farming. Most of which is irradiated anyway.

-As a result, big cities are a thing of the distant past. Roughly 90% of the worlds population (at it's peak 2000 years ago) has died either from nuclear annihilation or famine caused by the global warming that has left absolutely zero arable land to farm. Engineers (late game worker units) are always busy continuously building roads so that new armies can reach the front lines. Roads that are destroyed the very next turn when the enemy goes. So there isn't any time to clear swamps or clean up the nuclear fallout.

-Only 3 super massive nations are left. The Celts (me), The Vikings, And the Americans. Between the three of us, we have conquered all the other nations that have ever existed and assimilated them into our respective empires.

-You've heard of the 100 year war? Try the 1700 year war. The three remaining nations have been locked in an eternal death struggle for almost 2000 years. Peace seems to be impossible. Every time a cease fire is signed, the Vikings will surprise attack me or the Americans the very next turn, often with nuclear weapons. Even when the U.N forces a peace treaty. So I can only assume that peace will come only when they're wiped out. It is this that perpetuates the war ad infinitum. Have any of you old Civ II players out there ever had this problem in the post-late game?

-Because of SDI, ICBMS are usually only used against armies outside of cities. Instead, cities are constantly attacked by spies who plant nuclear devices which then detonate (something I greatly miss from later civ games). Usually the down side to this is that every nation in the world declares war on you. But this is already the case so its no longer a deterrent to anyone. My self included.

-The only governments left are two theocracies and myself, a communist state. I wanted to stay a democracy, but the Senate would always over-rule me when I wanted to declare war before the Vikings did. This would delay my attack and render my turn and often my plans useless. And of course the Vikings would then break the cease fire like clockwork the very next turn. Something I also miss in later civ games is a little internal politics. Anyway, I was forced to do away with democracy roughly a thousand years ago because it was endangering my empire. But of course the people hate me now and every few years since then, there are massive guerrilla (late game barbarians) uprisings in the heart of my empire that I have to deal with which saps resources from the war effort.

-The military stalemate is air tight. The post-late game in civ II is perfectly balanced because all remaining nations already have all the technologies so there is no advantage. And there are so many units at once on the map that you could lose 20 tank units and not have your lines dented because you have a constant stream moving to the front. This also means that cities are not only tiny towns full of starving people, but that you can never improve the city. "So you want a granary so you can eat? Sorry; I have to build another tank instead. Maybe next time."

-My goal for the next few years is to try and end the war and thus use the engineers to clear swamps and fallout so that farming may resume. I want to rebuild the world. But I'm not sure how. If any of you old Civ II players have any advice, I'm listening.

Edit: -Wow guys. Thanks for all your support. I had no idea this post would get this kind of response. -I'll be sure to keep you guys updated on my efforts. Whether here on Reddit, or a blog, or both. -Turns out a whole subreddit has been dedicated to ending this war. It's at /r/theeternalwar
Well, fuck me sideways with a chainsaw if that isn't dedication to sate curiosity.

Fear the Vikings, they got nukes and MAD isn't MAD anymore. :mrgreen:
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Jaepheth »

In the grim darkness of the far future; there is only Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by AMT »

We have always been at war with the Vikings!
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by FaxModem1 »

Now that's a Let's Play I'd like to see. Just to see the narrative and the potential plotlines of it.

Is there a way one of the three sides could win against the other two?
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Thanas »

Yeah, people already solved the war in just 53 years and less. Apparently the guy playing it has never considered using howitzers, amphibeous landings or killing spies etc.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by PeZook »

Which is a 1984 analogy all by itself :D
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by AMT »

Thanas wrote:Yeah, people already solved the war in just 53 years and less. Apparently the guy playing it has never considered using howitzers, amphibeous landings or killing spies etc.
You mean there's another way to play Civ besides a massive Millennial long tank rush?
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Nephtys »

We need to recruit younger soldiers. His M1 Tank Crews have probably been sitting in their rides for the last 900 years.

I really liked Civ: Call to Power for these kinds of ridiculous scenarios though. where else can you have a Civ Game, where the proud Orbital Spacenoid Empire is at eternal war with the vile dirt-forces of Earth, and the rebellious Undersea Colonies?
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by fgalkin »

War. War never changes.

Have a very nice day.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Zinegata »

Thanas wrote:Yeah, people already solved the war in just 53 years and less. Apparently the guy playing it has never considered using howitzers, amphibeous landings or killing spies etc.
It was a bit obvious that poor play caused this debacle; for instance he was still subscribing to a Communist government when Fundamentalism is the best warfighting government (and its only disadvantage - which is poor research - isn't an issue when all research is already done).

Still, you need a bit of incompetent play to get the really epic war situations. One of my early games (when I hadn't learned all the tricks to trounce Deity-mode AI) involved an actual naval arms race between myself against Japan. Using the cheat mode I discovered that Japan had something like 20+ Battleships, against which I had built something like 25 battleships.

Sadly, we never had a grand Jutland-style battle. We had a "Dogger Bank" wherein a small group of our battleships clashed (I lost one, the Japanese lost three), after which the Japanese stopped coming out of port. When we tried to flush them out with our own battleships, they started firing cruise missiles and sank one of our battleships; permanently ending any further hope for a grand battleship on battleship fight. :cry:
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Zinegata »

AMT wrote:
Thanas wrote:Yeah, people already solved the war in just 53 years and less. Apparently the guy playing it has never considered using howitzers, amphibeous landings or killing spies etc.
You mean there's another way to play Civ besides a massive Millennial long tank rush?
The Millennial tank rush only works if your opposition is still mostly reliant on Musketeers. It begins to lose effectiveness once they start employing riflemen hiding behind city walls, much less mechanized infantry.

At which point Howitzers (which ignore city walls) are necessary to blast your way through enemy cities. Bombers may also work, but they attack only once every other turn (very bad) and actually become somewhat obsolete once the enemy puts up SAMs or fighters in his cities - whereas Howitzers never become obsolete the moment they come out and railroads can potentially make the more mobile than bombers.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by madd0ct0r »

yeah - getting a good railroad system set up is key - i rarely used bombers on cities - they did little damage and took frequent losses - much better to harass units that are in the open, clear the way for spies or destroy enemy railroads.

Battleships were great fun for shoreline bombardment, alothough crusiemisslies did tend to ruin that tactic eventually. Still resources they spent on cruise missiles weren't helping the rest of the war effort, while my ships had been around (and useful) for a good few decades.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Zinegata »

madd0ct0r wrote:yeah - getting a good railroad system set up is key - i rarely used bombers on cities - they did little damage and took frequent losses - much better to harass units that are in the open, clear the way for spies or destroy enemy railroads.
In a best case scenario, a good railroad will allow a howitzer to attack twice a turn, which is four times more than a bomber. The bomber does at least come earlier in the tech-tree, but the window of its effectiveness is really small.
Battleships were great fun for shoreline bombardment, alothough crusiemisslies did tend to ruin that tactic eventually. Still resources they spent on cruise missiles weren't helping the rest of the war effort, while my ships had been around (and useful) for a good few decades.
Adding an AEGIS to the mix allows battleship to resume its shore bombardment duties, as it takes a huge number of missiles to sink one. Heck, the AEGIS bonus is so good that I won the alien invasion scenario by filling my ports with AEGIS cruisers until we got the super war-wnning tank tech. They would attack with something like 20+ UFOs every turn and the AEGIS boys would simply shoot them all down :D.

Without AEGIS though, I've lost battleships to as few as 2 missiles, which is a net gain for the CM users.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Sarevok »

I have not played Civ 2 but this game sounds way more indepth and fun than Civ 3 or 4 which I played. Is it really so ? The infamous "speamen kills tank" repeated adage discouraged me from getting the game. Should I give it a try ?
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by weemadando »

Zinegata wrote:
Thanas wrote:Yeah, people already solved the war in just 53 years and less. Apparently the guy playing it has never considered using howitzers, amphibeous landings or killing spies etc.
It was a bit obvious that poor play caused this debacle; for instance he was still subscribing to a Communist government when Fundamentalism is the best warfighting government (and its only disadvantage - which is poor research - isn't an issue when all research is already done).
Yes, but some people enjoy playing a game and not just spreadsheet warrioring to achieve maximum efficiency.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Simon_Jester »

Two thousand turns of tank spamming and nuke-tossing sounds awfully boring, though.

I'd probably have more fun trying to get creative with my strategy, although I might well remain under communism anyway for the hell of it, as it's not that bad a warfighting government.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by madd0ct0r »

it can be better if you have a particualry sprawling empire with bad amenities.

@Saverok - spear kills tank was Civ1. It's just possible in civ2, but you'd have to have a really damaged tank formation attacking a fortified spearman position, in which case i refer you to Mussolini's fun in Ethiopia...

My biggest problem with Civ2 was the tech tree pretty ends at the present day (when the game was released) so lots of cold war stuff, but no future tech.
Alpha Centuri (by the same guy) appealed to my scifi side much more that way.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah, a tank unit would blow away much more than its own cost in phalanxes on almost any imaginable terrain. On level ground it could probably kill totally arbitrary numbers of them and not even be touchable without its own implicit consent as long as you used mobility sensibly.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Zinegata »

Saverok->
I have not played Civ 2 but this game sounds way more indepth and fun than Civ 3 or 4 which I played. Is it really so ? The infamous "speamen kills tank" repeated adage discouraged me from getting the game. Should I give it a try ?
Civ 2 actually has a superior combat resolution system than Civ 3, and superior than the one that came out of the box for Civ 4 (but Civ 4 fixed it via patches).

Civ 2 introduced the concept of hitpoints. Basically, each unit now took several hits before dying. To confer modern units a greater advantage, they had more hitpoints. A Phalanx for instance had 10 hitpoints. A rifleman had 20. A tank had 30.

So even if the Phalanx (defense 2) managed to beat a tank (offense 10) in one round of combat, the tank wouldn't be destroyed. In fact, the chances of a full-strength tank being destroyed by a Phalanx was almost nil.

Civ 3 inexplicably reversed this by giving everyone the same number of hitpoints, and only a maximum of 5 hitpoints per unit. Which does allow Phalanxes to win against tanks.

Civ 4 (after all the patches) goes back to the Civ 2 model, except that your hitpoints now also equal your combat power. So a tank will still have a huge advantage against archers, but if it suffers enough damage it will only be as powerful as an archer unit. This is a pretty good model overall, albeit there was an annoying bug pre-patch that ensured any damage to a unit caused it to be wiped out by a full-strength enemy (even lightly damaged tank vs full-strength archer).

Overall, I would say that Civ 4 (with all the expansions) is arguably the best - simply because its AI is capable of epic fighting without the human playing suboptimally. It knows how to build Armadas and actual armies for instance (with "Beyond the Sword"), and it has a huge array of civic options. Plus, you can have more than 7 Civs on the map.

Civ 2 is still fun, but it quickly loses its luster once you figure out how to trounce the AI. If you don't mind the sci-fi theme then Alpha Centauri is the superior game - with a civic aspect almost as deep as Civ 4, the ability to design your own units (submersible aircraft carrier!), and a multiplayer mode to make up for the incompetent AI.
weemadando wrote:
Zinegata wrote:
Thanas wrote:Yeah, people already solved the war in just 53 years and less. Apparently the guy playing it has never considered using howitzers, amphibeous landings or killing spies etc.
It was a bit obvious that poor play caused this debacle; for instance he was still subscribing to a Communist government when Fundamentalism is the best warfighting government (and its only disadvantage - which is poor research - isn't an issue when all research is already done).
Yes, but some people enjoy playing a game and not just spreadsheet warrioring to achieve maximum efficiency.
If you'd actually scroll down and read the whole post you'd realize that my point is precisely this - to get the epic games you need to play suboptimally.

You can't get a cool naval arms race of 20 vs 25 battleships by playing optimally.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Zinegata »

Simon_Jester wrote:Two thousand turns of tank spamming and nuke-tossing sounds awfully boring, though.

I'd probably have more fun trying to get creative with my strategy, although I might well remain under communism anyway for the hell of it, as it's not that bad a warfighting government.
Heretic :P.

Kidding aside though, experienced Civ 2 only use two forms of government at the end game: Democracy, and Fundamentalism. Communism's advantages are paltry compared to what you get with the Fundies - no unrest, 8 free units supported per city, in exchange for very bad research. If you want to do research, then it's Democracy all the way.

Despotism, Monarchy, and Republic are all just transitional forms of government on the way to Democracy or Fundamentalism. Communism often doesn't even get a nod, because no corruption and better policing is often still worse than going Republic - where the commerce boost is often so good that you can set 20% of your income to luxuries to get rid of any unrest and still out-research Communism; not to mention Republics can pop-boom.

Admittedly, this is one of the failed aspects of Civ 2. The design intent (written in the manual) was to make all forms of government interesting, but they failed in it. They managed to make it work in Civ 4 and Alpha Centauri though, wherein there are truly many interesting forms of government aside from Fundie / Dem.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by PeZook »

Civ IV suffers from the fact gold is almost useless unless you've got universal suffrage, though - albeit I did sometimes have crazy government systems with democracies that still practiced vassalage and serfdom, AND had state property :P

The fact other civs might like/dislike you based on their preferred civics was pretty good, too. The bonus was pretty large, so you could have ideological blocs form during play.
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Purple »

Gold becomes really useful with the right game settings thou. I discovered this by accident. What you need to do is turn on tech trading but disable tech brokering. With that, the AI weights techs as much more important and won't trade them away easily. And gold becomes a major bargaining factor as it lets you trade techs at a reasonable exchange rate as early as the middle ages.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Imperial528 »

Gold is extremely useful for upgrading units. Heck, often I only make units to replace combat losses after I've made my first army, I just keep upgrading them until I hit the point where it's too expensive, which really depends on a lot of factors (tech, army size, economy) that very per game.
In larger games I usually only apply this to my defense force and high-level units, though, since when you're building dozens of units per turn upgrading hits the many thousands of gold in cost.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by PeZook »

With tech progression, preserving experienced units usually isn't economical ; I only upgrade my city raiders, because infantry with 3x city attack bonus = murder, and you can't get those promotions for new infantry.
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: Civ 2: 3991 AD and counting

Post by Purple »

It all depends on how intensive your game was in terms of fighting. You would not believe how often I have gotten into arms races with the AI where only the gold to update some units stood between one of us and the gear the other was using. This is especially noticeable in the cavalry line if you like to like me play on maps with large continents.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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