MWO video discussion

[VF5SS]

The thing is though, Battlemechs could be a legitimate high mark on the battlefield if they behaved more like their Japanese counterparts (instead of just stealing their art and misinterpreting it) who consistently show some level of agility and even tactics beyond kludge kludge lasers. And the setup of the board game is abstract enough to believe that they are doing more than running in straight lines and torso twisting, which the artwork in the books seemed to reflect up until Mechwarrior 2 got popular. MW2 is a rather primitive game even for the standards of its time and yet that became the preferred way to depict Battletech in real time.




Nobody remembers this game. Possibly because it is just a reworked Desert Strike but it was still kind of fun and a different take on the universe. Also the stolen designs are in this game but were replaced in the Japanese release with the same 2750 designs that replaced the stolen ones in the revised 3025 TRO :3

[VF5SS]

I don't want to turn this into a point and laugh at the MWO forums thread but...

Fix boating by having weapons share bandwidth in the targeting system

You don't know anything about how guns work do you? How much bandwidth did THIS take?

[CaptHawkeye]

To be fair, MW2-4 did have other armor and air assets like fighters, helicopters, tanks, and wheeled vehicles. It's just that they were just blocks of single sets of hitpoints (except for those random fighters in MW2 Mercs that could fly with a wing shot off :3 ) that you could easily laser boat to death. None of them were particularly fast or maneuverable and were just more fodder for your kill score. They were only dangerous en masse if they caught you in the crossfire.

Has anybody ever featured a useful degree of combined arms in any western style giant robot game? One of the reasons combat in the MW games tends to boil down into DPS slugouts is because their is no other kind of combat. There's no infantry hiding in foxholes shooting out the knee-joints of passing Mechs with their Panzerfausts. There's no "Atlas Mech modified with spotting optics" to call in artillery and air strikes. Everything is just "durf durf more LRMs".

[Gunhead]

Has anybody ever featured a useful degree of combined arms in any western style giant robot game? One of the reasons combat in the MW games tends to boil down into DPS slugouts is because their is no other kind of combat. There's no infantry hiding in foxholes shooting out the knee-joints of passing Mechs with their Panzerfausts. There's no "Atlas Mech modified with spotting optics" to call in artillery and air strikes. Everything is just "durf durf more LRMs".

Heavy Gear says Hi!

The problem is the hitpoint armor system to begin with. Stealth is pretty useless in BT / MW games. It just allows you to get the first shot in, but since you for all points a purposes can't knock out a Mech of similar tonnage out of action with a single salvo it does a lot to negate the tactical advantage of concealment. The shitty point armor system is compounded by the random hit location system, which plagued the computer MW games too to a certain extent if my memory serves me correct.

-Gunhead

[Serafina]

Has anybody ever featured a useful degree of combined arms in any western style giant robot game? One of the reasons combat in the MW games tends to boil down into DPS slugouts is because their is no other kind of combat. There's no infantry hiding in foxholes shooting out the knee-joints of passing Mechs with their Panzerfausts. There's no "Atlas Mech modified with spotting optics" to call in artillery and air strikes. Everything is just "durf durf more LRMs".

Again - Mech Warrior Living Legends has quite a bit of Combined Arms.

While there is no Infantry hiding in foxholes as such, there is hard-to-spot, radar-invisible battlearmor. Thanks to decent weaponry, shaped charges, high agility and regenerating health, it's a notable threat to other assets. Sure, you won't take out an assault mech on your own, but you can take down a medium or light mech and damage a heavy one with supreme accuracy - and if the mech lacks flamers, machine guns or other such weaponry, he can do little against it. Since everyone starts out as BA by default, BA-weapons are cheap and you can respawn at an APC in the field, you always have to expect some to be around.

An Atlas certainly won't carry any spotting gear - that's a job for Battlearmor, light mechs, hovercrafts or VTOLs. Sheer spotting actually nets you points (and more if the spotted asset actually gets hit) and can be done visually or via improved radar. And some assets carry radar-countermeasures with make them harder to hit.
Spotters can also highlight targets with TAG or NARC, which can easily result in a deadly shower of LRMs or Thunderbolts from beyond visual range (or the normal range those missiles can acquire a lock - you get about 50% more range out of them if you have a dedicated spotter).
Oh, and there is Long Tom artillery to complement spotters as well, which is just bloody deadly and can blow up an assault mech in a few shots.

Sniping happens as well, and is usually done by Gauss/PPC-armed tanks or Jumpjet-Mechs. The enemy won't have any indication where the shot is coming from, and if you run with passive radar or GECM he won't spot you on radar either.

Air assets obviously lead to some combined arms warfare, since the majority of weaponry sucks against air targets (you actually have to keep lasers on the same spot for a few seconds to do full damage, so they aren't pure hitscan-weapons). A dedicated anti-air vehicle on the other hand will slaughter any air asset it can acquire. Meanwhile, a dive-bombing Sulla can blow up a heavy mech with a single bombing run, and thunderbolts from lighter fighters are a serious threat when working with a spotter.


There is no real reason why this couldn't be the case with other MechWarrior-games either - you just have to get away from the "players can only play mechs"-concept. Heavier tanks and planes rival all but assault-mechs in combat capability after all. However, as far as i can tell, MWO will stick with an era where most of those nifty assets (TAG or NARC for example) just weren't available.

[VF5SS]

Has anybody ever featured a useful degree of combined arms in any western style giant robot game?

I think this brings us to another good question. What exactly is a "western style giant robot game?" Even Heavy Gear, which Gunhead mentioned, is admittedly based on Armored Trooper Votoms right down the robots having retractable wheels on their feet and pilot visors that are fed information from the robot's head. And taking in the sheer scope of what kinds of games Japan has produced with regards to giant robots, what is distinctly "western?" Is it just that jogging DPS turret gameplay that Mechwarrior and its clones perpetuated?

The shitty point armor system is compounded by the random hit location system, which plagued the computer MW games too to a certain extent if my memory serves me correct.

-Gunhead

What actually happened is in the board game, each weapon fired would hit a random location. There's also more bullshit about how LRM swarms broke down further into five missile clusters (only as much damage as a medium laser lawl) and hit random locations so as to keep the AC20 as the most powerful single location hitting weapon. The MW games kept the same hit locations but didn't account for pinpoint accurate weapons fire so everyone just concentrated on whatever part of the robot lead to the quickest death. Hence the leg shooting in MW2-MW4.

[White Haven]

That depends entirely on run-time. So far, the current plan is to advance time in realtime, so technological advancement can and will occur apace. So we're not likely to see 3060s-era stuff like rotary autocannons, but 3050s tech is certainly in the cards.

[VF5SS]

Speaking of combined arms, Namco Bandai is putting out a free to download (for those with a Japanese PSN account) Gundam game that does feature combined arms and customizable pilots and stuff.

[CaptHawkeye]

I'm in the mood for a giant robot game now. Veef are the Lost Planet games any good?

[Vendetta]

The first one is kind of OK for cheaps, but it has some severe bullshit in it with enemies that will stunlock you all over the place.

The second one is all kinds of bullshit all over the place. Hope you like 45 minute missions with no checkpoints!

[VF5SS]

I'm in the mood for a giant robot game now. Veef are the Lost Planet games any good?

I've been pretty slow on the uptake for anything past the PS2 era that isn't AC:FA and Front Mission: Evolved into Shit.

ps avoid that game.

[CaptHawkeye]

I heard Front Mission was awful and sure enough checking out the videos it looked inexcusably hideous.

Armored Core V comes out next week but I don't want to invest in it until people tell me it isn't bad.

[jollyreaper]

These people don't know what they want. The direction they sort of want to vaguely go in involves making the game as unintuitive and unwelcoming as possible.

You have your fast zombies and slow zombies. There are fans of both and each are convinced the other side is wrong.

Likewise, slow robots is the American approach. 50 foot tall robots are not nimble. Even if they can run 40mph, they will not turn on a dime. If they fire jump jets, it's not going to be graceful but look like 40 tons of metal in the air and it will come down hard.

The Japanese like fast robots. They're all going to move like Brice Lee with a jet pack. Why? Because its awesome!!!!

When it comes to playing a cockpit-based mech game, there's no sense you're in a robot. It just feels like a big tank with interesting pew-pews.

You are never going to reconcile the two camps.

I am laughing at all the stolen designs. I knew they'd ripped off macross but not that other series. If its a good design fasa didn't do it! Heh.

[VF5SS]

Likewise, slow robots is the American approach.

You mean like the live action Transformers? Oh wait they move fast :x

You mean like ED-209 and Robocain? Oh wait they move like aggressive mechanical beasts. ED-209 even squeals like a piggy.

Avatar power suit? Moves like a man inside a suit of armor.

Star Wars robots? Well they're mostly made for exciting cinematic sequences with little regard to practicality. It wasn't until AOTC that someone tried seriously paint these whimsical vehicles as being main fighting units on screen where they failed really hard.

Battlemechs in the artwork and fluff move more fluidly. It's only in games designed like they're limited to an early Pentium do they move like jogging turrets.

50 foot tall robots are not nimble. Even if they can run 40mph, they will not turn on a dime. If they fire jump jets, it's not going to be graceful but look like 40 tons of metal in the air and it will come down hard.

50 foot robots can be nimble all they want just like VTOL airplanes, helicopters, and what have you. It's all about presentation and giving a feeling of weight to movements. Turning on a dime does not happen in Japanese robot games like Armored Core (without boosters), the Votoms games, the Gungriffon games, or dozens of others. Sure there are twitch reflex fighting games like the Gundam Vs series and Virtual On, but even those games are based on fixed vector dashing mechanics and limitations of movement.

The Japanese like fast robots. They're all going to move like Brice Lee with a jet pack. Why? Because its awesome!!!!

Ok name a series where this happens because I haven't seen it.

I think what this comes down to is, Battletech fans want slow robots because they want to play Mechwarrior 2 or Mechwarrior 3 forever.

Mech fights in those games look like robots battling over a parking space.

[jollyreaper]

Likewise, slow robots is the American approach.

You mean like the live action Transformers? Oh wait they move fast

Well, I should clarify that we're talking the initial era of real robots, specifically giant fighting robots. 70's and 80's. Towards the 90's there was enough cross-pollination from Japan so that you had Americanized versions of the Japanese approach. Same way we can talk about American comics and Japanese manga even though at this point there are people from both countries borrowing heavily from other styles.

You mean like ED-209 and Robocain? Oh wait they move like aggressive mechanical beasts. ED-209 even squeals like a piggy.

ED never jumped around. Robocop himself moved a bit like Terminator who was also slow, lumbering death. But also the special effects couldn't have depicted a robocop doing ninja flips.

When talking about robots, I thought it was clear we were talking specifically about mechs and mecha, the big boys.

Avatar power suit? Moves like a man inside a suit of armor.

50 foot robots can be nimble all they want just like VTOL airplanes, helicopters, and what have you. It's all about presentation and giving a feeling of weight to movements. Turning on a dime does not happen in Japanese robot games like Armored Core (without boosters), the Votoms games, the Gungriffon games, or dozens of others. Sure there are twitch reflex fighting games like the Gundam Vs series and Virtual On, but even those games are based on fixed vector dashing mechanics and limitations of movement.

Like I said, it depends on who's doing it. The American argument was that these things are too big to be flipping out like ninjas. The Japanese think it's cool to do it that way. Since they're pretty much impossible to build, all we can do is speculate at this point.

The Japanese like fast robots. They're all going to move like Brice Lee with a jet pack. Why? Because its awesome!!!!

Ok name a series where this happens because I haven't seen it.

Where to start? Evangelion. How tall are they, 150ft? 200? And just as nimble as an acrobat in a leotard. Gundams could swordfight. About the slowest I've seen a Japanese mecha move would be the ones from Gasaraki.

I think what this comes down to is, Battletech fans want slow robots because they want to play Mechwarrior 2 or Mechwarrior 3 forever.

Mech fights in those games look like robots battling over a parking space.

Right. It depends on what people want. Like I said, the American tradition was for big robots to move slow and ponderous, the Japanese want them fast. But you've seen Americans influenced by the Japanese and not just stealing the designs to make them slow (Battletech.)

[Stark]

Dude things like Gundams (ie bigger than mechs lol) are around the size of a jet fighter, which are obviously very agile. There's no reason robots 'have to' be slow and lumbering outside the intent of portrayal, and btech has 230kmh robot emus and yet since the slow games tend to portray them as being slow. The idea Gundams and variable fighters don't have weight to them or decades of design around 'realistically' creating their agility is just ignorant.

The idea that this is 'the American argument' is bizarre because it's one tiny franchise that was distorted by a shitty video game. I guess that says something about how niche it was to start with.

Regardless, if they honestly went with 'slow' they could do heaps of cool shit like acceleration and inertia and poor terrain handling etc. You know they won't, of course, because it's just an excuse to tune-in the MW2 fanbase.

[jollyreaper]

Gundams are 18 meters high, 60 ft. Can't find a guesstimate on mass but that's speculative anyway. They look like they'd be denser than a jet fighter.

But I can agree with you that the mech games have been pretty boring. I want a mech to feel different from playing a dude with a gun in a shooter. I'm not sure how you could do that. Properly destructible environments would be cool. Smash through a building, obliterate a forest! I don't think we can manage that convincingly.

I agree that the visuals are a bit prettier than the first mechwarrior but the combat hasn't evolved much. Circle strafing is the only new thing.

I agree with the comments above that combined arms concerns could make the game more interesting. In the modern day tanks are cool but they don't rule the battlefield.

The point above is also well-taken that if the only goal is winning a shooting match, you end up with a pretty full game with only a few workable builds.

If WWI naval combat was just ship v ship, the only ship you need is the biggest and baddest battleship possible. Steam towards each other and pew pew until someone sinks. Boring. We have all manner of other ship designs because there are competing missions to satisfy.

The interesting development in armor warfare is that there were light medium and heavy tanks but it was determined that the smaller classes just weren't workable sober settled on the main battle tank. There needs to be a compelling reason to have those other mech classes. Cost effectiveness would be a factor. You could field a company of light mechs for the cost of a lance of heavies. Assault mechs might rule the battlefield but they have poor mobility and it might be more useful to have a number of medium mechs that aren't as survivable but can get where they're needed in a hurry.

Again, all that nuance is lost if it's just PVP mechs only.

[VF5SS]

Well, I should clarify that we're talking the initial era of real robots, specifically giant fighting robots. 70's and 80's. Towards the 90's there was enough cross-pollination from Japan so that you had Americanized versions of the Japanese approach. Same way we can talk about American comics and Japanese manga even though at this point there are people from both countries borrowing heavily from other styles.

Ok I'm gonna stop you right here because I don't think you know your shit. Don't be like one of those /m/tards from 4chan.

ED never jumped around. Robocop himself moved a bit like Terminator who was also slow, lumbering death. But also the special effects couldn't have depicted a robocop doing ninja flips.

ED-209 is pretty nimble actually. He has a staccato feel to his movements (some of this is due to stop motion animation) but he's definitely not lumbering. He engages Murphy in close combat, squeezes through a doorway, and utterly fails to navigate stairs but he's a far cry from Mechwarrior's jogging turrets.

And Robocain (aka Robocop Mk 2) is crazy aggressive for a machine. He scrambles up an elevator shaft, grabs Murphy and whacks him against pipes, and all kinds of fluid movement. He's also pretty handy with a TV remote.

Robocop himself tends to walk slowly, mostly because the costume didn't let Peter Weller do much else. However when aiming his gun in that awesome 80's "I'm not even looking where I'm shooting" way, he is pretty quick on the draw. I never saw much of the third movie but he does get a jetpack that lets him scream around like he's in a bad movie.

And you're taking the slow Terminator out of context. The one from the first movie that we see with all of its skin removed was damaged by an explosion. It was hobbling towards Kyle and Sarah because its leg was broken. We never really see a fully functional endo-skeleton until I think T4. Normally, a Terminator moves like a super strong human being when fully skinned and clothed. That's just the advantage of real actors with steely gazes.

When talking about robots, I thought it was clear we were talking specifically about mechs and mecha, the big boys.

To me there is no difference. Militaristic giant robots like Mobile Suits were heavily inspired by the Powered Suit from Starship Troopers. While their size is a compromise between what the director wanted and what the toy sponsors wanted, Mobile Suits are essentially scaled up power armor.

And much to the creator's own admission, Mazinger Z was just a way to navigate traffic with a robot you can drive like a car.

Avatar power suit? Moves like a man inside a suit of armor.

Yeah so? People can do cartwheels in armor. It just makes them tired :3

Where to start? Evangelion. How tall are they, 150ft? 200? And just as nimble as an acrobat in a leotard. Gundams could swordfight. About the slowest I've seen a Japanese mecha move would be the ones from Gasaraki.

Ok I'll grant you Evangelion but you have to understand the context. Eva's combat is a love letter to live action shows, especially Ultraman. So much work is put into the fights in Ultraman convince the viewer that these men in rubber suits are roughly 50 meters tall. They use lots of low angles, slow motion, and wire work to get the right feel even if it isn't perfect. So if an Eva unit does a backflip, it's only because they watched footage of a physical actor doing it.

Gundams sword fighting is perfectly fine. They're large and clearly powerful. Nobody complains about an AT-AT moving its entire head and body just to ping little speeders.

Right. It depends on what people want. Like I said, the American tradition was for big robots to move slow and ponderous, the Japanese want them fast. But you've seen Americans influenced by the Japanese and not just stealing the designs to make them slow (Battletech.)

I'm going to side more with Stark on this. It's really only Mechwarrior that constantly beats the slow and ponderous image over people's heads like it's some mark of distinction even when it's in direct contradiction to official Battletech game mechanics, artwork, or even the opening cinematics to Mechwarrior games. It's like a brainbug at this point.

Seriously we can't even get a Mechwarrior game that lets the robots extend their arms out to shoot their guns. Or even do what the Thor in Mechwarrior 2's intro does where it casually steps around a rock face while pointing its arm out to take a potshot at the Mad Cat.

[jollyreaper]

I am not advocating for fast or slow. I just want it to be interesting. And I will concur that the current offerings are a bit boring. I would like to see a game that gives a proper sense of 50 ton mechs beating the shit out of each other.

[Stark]

If both America and Japan make robots that are both fast and slow, maybe the problem really is just Battletech. :v For MWO it's almost certainly a conscious effort to be like MW2 rather than any rejection of interesting or agile robots.

It just means replays will look boring, without actually having any of the interesting things they could be doing.

[VF5SS]

I've been attempting to engage some MWO forum people.

They're a bit reluctant to discuss things

[Stark]

I got a huge laugh from 'imagine if shooting one spot made a robit die', because thats exactly what happens in MW.

[CaptHawkeye]

The point - >

His head - >

Anyway it's funny that the idea of AC's blanket HP model offends him so much compared to Mechwarrior's many, many years of legging.

[Stark]

You could trivially do legging in AC if you wanted with status effects. Bu since it'd be immediately followed by death what's the point.

[VF5SS]

Yeah it's getting worse as the pages go on.

I was messing around with Mechwarrior 1 (1989 lawl) and using the Warhammer Destroid Tomahawk Tomahammer, and since you can only group weapons into one group I put all the lasers together and aimed for the head of my opponent.

Works all the time~