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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

Mass Effect 3 (Spoilers)

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Aaron MkII
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 05:01pm 

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Joined: 2012-02-11 05:13pm
Posts: 1358
PeZook wrote:
Aaron MkII wrote:
Well, the kid showed up in the form of the kid at the beginning :roll: .


:shock:

:?:

Holy shit :D

I spoilerified the ending for myself and yeah, I'll wait for a bargain bin occasion, thankyouverymuch.

God. The way Shep just goes "Oh yeah little kid AI guy i'll do what you say, totally man I believe you" is incredible. I thought Shep was the only smart person in the galaxy?


Totally out of the blue as well.
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 05:02pm 

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He clearly knows the story is about him and that whatever he chooses sets the tone. :v
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PeZook
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 05:06pm 

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BTW don't you just love how the kid-AI chose the most retarded "solution" to the "problem" ever?

Seriously.

"Organics build synthetics who always rebel, therefore we should periodically murder all organics to prevent this!

SCORE! Crisis averted!"

Now, this could've been interesting if the ending examined in more detail how the AI is a slave of its own arbitrary goal system or something. But it doesn't. Mass Effect can't even decide if it wants to be mature sci-fi exploring themes of synthetic vs. organic life, a war movie, action piece or whatever. So it tries them all. And fails.
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Aaron MkII
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 05:14pm 

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Joined: 2012-02-11 05:13pm
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They could have improved it by having better coordination between the writers or maybe a single team. Some of it, like Mordin is ok but Udina and Cereberus and the coup is just terrible.
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 05:34pm 

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Does it approach themes like that in the second and third games? Can anyone pick when they changed tone?
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White Haven
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 05:50pm 

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Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Posts: 6075
Location: Richmond, Virginia: The Capitol of Treason
It's always flirted with themes like that on the fringes, with the Quarian-Geth conflict. That was always in the context of the rest of the unvierse, though, and frankly fairly well-done. That's part of what made the sudden kid-AI bit so jarring, it came out of the clear blue sky.

EDIT: And what the gaming industry needs, badly, is a cadre of editors with the clout to say 'no, go back and do it again and here's why, enjoy the red ink.' A lot of the writing flaws in a lot of games can be traced back to writer tunnel-vision, nobody being in a position to sanity-check things and put on the brakes until too late in development. This's doubly true in fully voice-acted games, because once voice lines are paid for and recorded, it's far, far harder to overcome the inertia to fix a fuckup.
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PeZook
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 06:11pm 

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The lack of editing is clear in the final dialogue with the Illusive Man and the AI itself. I've seen lots of inane dialogue and written even more, and that...that was fanfic quality. Total ham riding a cliche followed by empty filler.

And it sounds like the voice actors realizes it, too.
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White Haven
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 06:29pm 

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Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
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Yeah. I did like that the Illusive Man's tendency to grandstanding is what let Shepard put a bullet in him, though. If he hadn't wanted the perfect, symbolic back-of-the-head kneeling execution, he'd never have been in Shepard's line of fire without Anderson also being in the way.
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PeZook
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 06:38pm 

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Yes, that part was very in-character, at least from what he's shown in ME2. I liked it a lot. Still, the dialogue before that left a sour aftertaste, especially Sheppard's flat and meaningless lines.
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White Haven
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 06:40pm 

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Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
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Most of what made the ending so jarringly bad for me is that up until the bit on the Citadel itself, it had a totally different tone, one that was tense and dramatic and FUCK YOU, we're doing this no matter how many goddamned bullshits you throw a--wait, wtf?
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Aaron MkII
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 06:42pm 

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Joined: 2012-02-11 05:13pm
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I do wish that it hadn't been obvious from Mars that the IM was a Reaper pawn.
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White Haven
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 06:52pm 

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There were a few hints here and there that Cerberus could have been split along Reaper/non-Reaper faction lines, but they never decided to run with that idea (outside the Jacob mission). Shame, that could have been interesting, because it'd leave the question of which side TIM was actually on.
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PeZook
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 07:17pm 

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White Haven wrote:
Most of what made the ending so jarringly bad for me is that up until the bit on the Citadel itself, it had a totally different tone, one that was tense and dramatic and FUCK YOU, we're doing this no matter how many goddamned bullshits you throw a--wait, wtf?


You know, that's a problem with the series as a whole: they never take one theme or plot and explore it to the end ; It's always a dozen different things that never go anywhere.

ME2 had it at its most glaring when you go to the Geth world to fetch Tali ; Here is an awesome opportunity to go an explore the geth: who they are, what they are doing there, their relationship to the Quarians, everything, and go to great places with it ; Oh, sorry - you get the planet, then Tali's loyalty mission, you shoot Geth, the end!

And that was one of the better parts of ME2!

Same here with this ending: the IDEA they had for Reaper origins and purpose isn't half bad. The "solution" to "chaos" seems retarded when you assume the AI is a general intelligence capable of not being an idiot, but the very nature of AI could constrict it to very narrow lines of thought when it's given a task. Kind of like a genie, when you word your wish imprecisely and you get horrifying results that are TECHNICALLY what you said you wanted.

They could've done great things with that, really. It could've been a computer game with some deep thought in it, a true classic of sci-fi, not just a gaming blockbuster.

The fact they introduced this AI in the last five minutes, however, precludes most of that. The fact they WASTED those five minutes is just criminal.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 07:21pm 

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Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
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Location: Oakland CA
Man! I can't wait to play this. It sounds great!
One of the great things about not paying attention in high school and college is that I don't recognize themes and such in writing! So it doesn't ruin my video game enjoyment! :D
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Aaron MkII
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 07:26pm 

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Joined: 2012-02-11 05:13pm
Posts: 1358
Well I recognize that the plot is silly and they don't fully explore the universe they've created, I can still enjoy playing it.
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open_sketchbook
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 08:06pm 

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Joined: 2008-11-03 06:43pm
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Yeah, I sort of felt that last part could have been a good half-an-hour longer. I wouldn't have actually changed anything about the choices or the confrontation with the Illusive Man (the last choice was a legitimately tough one) but what I might have done was have a Reaper, perhaps Harbinger himself, in the Citadel interacting with the Catalyst, who Shepard could confront. Heck, just have a last chance to ask a lot of questions and get some answers. Then, afterward, maybe just let us know what happens to everybody in the context of the choices you made (perhaps only if you survive).

The actual endings themselves are not disappointing to me; they felt right. The only thing I didn't like was the lack of knowledge; Mass Effect has always been very good at giving you knowledge and background, explaining how it all works, and giving you lots of context if you want to look for it. There wasn't enough meat to the final exposition by comparison; I want to know more. It's the last part of the trilogy; I want concrete answers to where the Reapers come from, not vague bullshit. All Shepards are categorically opposed to vague bullshit.

Seriously though, I'm not nearly as down on it as you guys are. It was an incomplete execution of a good ending, not a bad ending.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 09:22pm 

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And so it begins...
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Chardok
PostPosted: 2012-03-08 10:06pm 

GET THE FUCK OFF MY OBSTACLE!


Joined: 2003-08-12 09:49am
Posts: 8455
Location: San Antonio
Guys, guys guys. I thought of a great meme.

pic of femshep/broshep side by side

Top caption:

Reapers attacking earth?


Bottom caption:

Make like sheppards and get the flock outta there.



HUH?! HUH?! Good, right?!
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Havok
PostPosted: 2012-03-09 01:21am 

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Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Posts: 12721
Location: Oakland CA
Hahahahaha... Actually riding in the elevator... a CGI of the elevator moving... looking at a blank computer screen...

Way to go FattynerdsTM :lol:
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Chardok
PostPosted: 2012-03-09 01:46am 

GET THE FUCK OFF MY OBSTACLE!


Joined: 2003-08-12 09:49am
Posts: 8455
Location: San Antonio
WHY IS JESSICA CHOBOT IN MY GODDAMNED MASS EFFECT GAME?!?!?!? Renegade. From now. On. Oh Bioware, you have fucked right up.
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PeZook
PostPosted: 2012-03-09 03:16am 

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You know what didn't quite jive? Sovereign's attitude and the stated purpose of the Reapers. I mean, Sovereign was so totally gleeful at the prospect of visiting slaughter and terror on organics. Sovereign boasted about covering the sky and abusing organics etc.

Harbinger was a little closer to what I'd expect (probably because they didn't have much idea about the Reapers until 2 :D) but still psycho about fucking everybody up.

open_sketchbook wrote:
Yeah, I sort of felt that last part could have been a good half-an-hour longer. I wouldn't have actually changed anything about the choices or the confrontation with the Illusive Man (the last choice was a legitimately tough one) but what I might have done was have a Reaper, perhaps Harbinger himself, in the Citadel interacting with the Catalyst, who Shepard could confront. Heck, just have a last chance to ask a lot of questions and get some answers. Then, afterward, maybe just let us know what happens to everybody in the context of the choices you made (perhaps only if you survive).


They really should've introduced the kid-AI earlier, so that you could actually establish why it's doing what it's doing in the most horrible way imaginable, why the Reapers are so gleeful about it all et al.

You could really examine the differences between synthetic and organic life to the fullest. I mean, then the retardness of the "solution" would be a nice literary device, rather than something dumb and pointless (oh congratulations Reapermakers, you slaughter countless minds and mix them up into organic paste that doesn't actually keep anything that's important about sentient beings! BUT YOU END CHAOS! In one galaxy out of four hundred billion! :D).

P.S.

You don't really end chaos you just concentrate it into one giant orgy of death every 50k years.

OR they could've just concentrated on it being WAR, total warfor survival of the galaxy, and made it a Sci-Fi War Movie style plot.
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KlavoHunter
PostPosted: 2012-03-09 03:22am 

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Joined: 2007-08-26 10:53pm
Posts: 1391
Quote:
Faraborne wrote...

I received this from a friend who just beat ME3. This was his solution to the ending problem:

Proposal is as follows:
There should be a fourth option available at the end - and the beauty of it is that it would naturally branch in a way that satisfies both of the outcomes people are asking for.

Right now, the Guardian presents us with three options - destroy, control, and merge. Each are depressingly self-destructive in their own ways, and as we all know, we have no choice but to pick one. DLC could add a fourth option: REFUSE.

Shepard stabs a defiant finger in the Guardian's chest and declares it is not their right to "protect" us from the consequences of our own actions. If peace was forged between the Quarians and the Geth, Shepard cites that as proof that the Guardian's premise of inevitable conflict between synthetics and organics is wrong. If not, Shepard can simply deny the Guardian's conclusion and declare that we're going to go down fighting. Shepard delivers an ultimatum: take your abominations and go. Whether we live as a civilization or die by our own hand is a choice to be left to every one of us. So, f*** you very much, but thanks for thinking of us.

The Guardian blows off Shepard's ultimatum, and the Reapers continue to fight. At this point, the outcome is out of your hands. Shepard watches, unable to intervene, as the fleets continue to engage, the forces of the galaxy attempting to defeat the Reapers once and for all in conventional combat. The Guardian taunts you, trying to goad you into choosing one of the three options it offered, while assuming the forms of different people you've lost along the way: Virmire casualty, Anderson, and your love interest, dead or alive, just to screw with you. You can change your mind, or continue to stand and watch. If you gathered enough war assets (as in, much higher than the required amount for the "perfect" ending we're given now), the Reapers are defeated at horrific cost, but the Relay network remains intact, and Shepard gets to reunite with his/her LI and squad provided the Normandy survived the fight (itself dependent on other criteria). This would be the hardest ending to achieve, requiring the greatest effort and providing the most reward. You would really have to work your ass off to do this, but as evidenced by this poll, most of the people here would be willing to try.

If you didn't have enough resources, the Reapers emerge victorious, and, having defeated the combined military might of the galaxy, they are free to harvest everyone else. The cycle continues. They win. Either way, you get to spit in the devil's face once more instead of bowing to the invariably self-destructive choice he offers you.

Me: I personally think this solution would be profound. Furthermore, it really gives five endings for the game. If you we're not fully prepared for the war, then Shepherd allows the Reapers to win without sacrificing his integrity (which would be a major win in my book). Finally, if you were fully prepared then you receive the most rewarding ending possible with what I think could potentially be one of the most creative boss fights in gaming history...a battle of wills alone.
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open_sketchbook
PostPosted: 2012-03-09 03:26am 

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Joined: 2008-11-03 06:43pm
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Regarding that ending proposal, my first instinct actually was to turn around and walk the other way rather than to walk at any particular ending. It just felt like exactly what Shepard would do.
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PeZook
PostPosted: 2012-03-09 03:30am 

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Fuck yes. The guy/gal stared into the face of a two kilometer superdreadnaught and told it to fuck off and die, and that alternate ending sounds really awesome.

But, well, ship has sailed, thanks for playing :D
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-03-09 04:00am 

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If only the theme of cooperation before adversity hadn't been abandoned in the first game for joke endings I guess.
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