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Target Australia will stop selling GTA V

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AniThyng
PostPosted: 2014-12-04 05:22am 

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Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
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Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
http://www.target.com.au/medias/marketi ... ase-v2.pdf

Quote:
TARGET REMOVES GRAND THEFT AUTO 5 FROM SHELVES
Target Australia will stop selling the R-rated video game Grand Theft Auto 5 (GTA5) following feedback
from customers about the game's depictions of violence against women.
Target General Manager Corporate Affairs Jim Cooper said the decision was made following extensive
community and customer concern about the game.
"We've been speaking to many customers over recent days about the game, and there is a significant
level of concern about the game's content," Mr Cooper said.
"We've also had customer feedback in support of us selling the game, and we respect their perspective
on the issue.
"However, we feel the decision to stop selling GTA5 is in line with the majority view of our customers."
Mr Cooper said Target would continue to sell other R-rated DVDs and games.
"While these products often contain imagery that some customers find offensive, in the vast majority of
cases, we believe they are appropriate products for us to sell to adult customers.
"However, in the case of GTA5, we have listened to the strong feedback from customers that this is not a
product they want us to sell."
-
ends
-


I personally don't see an issue as such, so long as people can still buy it from dedicated game stores etc, but do you think it will stop at GTA V?
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Darth Tanner
PostPosted: 2014-12-04 05:52am 

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Joined: 2006-03-29 05:07pm
Posts: 1196
Location: Birmingham, UK
Quote:
but do you think it will stop at GTA V?


The fact that it is stopping at GTA V seems to be the most moronic component of this, why are they still selling other R rates media if GTA V is such a problem with their customers that they have to stop selling it?
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Grumman
PostPosted: 2014-12-04 06:29am 

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Joined: 2011-12-10 10:13am
Posts: 1722
Quote:
Target Australia will stop selling the R-rated video game Grand Theft Auto 5 (GTA5) following feedback
from customers about the game's depictions of violence against women.

No, Target. If they were customers they'd be asking for refunds. These are busybodies.
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The Vortex Empire
PostPosted: 2014-12-04 10:23am 

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Joined: 2006-12-11 10:44pm
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Location: Rhode Island
If you don't like the content of the game, couldn't you just... not buy it? I also like how the legions of men that get mercilessly slaughtered aren't a problem.
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TheFeniX
PostPosted: 2014-12-05 02:49pm 

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Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Posts: 2357
Location: Texas
The Vortex Empire wrote:
If you don't like the content of the game, couldn't you just... not buy it? I also like how the legions of men that get mercilessly slaughtered aren't a problem.
You can't just stop at not buying it for your kid. Because then Timmy down the road might buy it and your precious little child might be corrupted. Mature rated games designed for adults need to be kept out of the hands of children by banning them completely rather than parents policing their own children's entertainment.

EDIT: serves me right for getting off an a rant, this isn't even about kids. But yea, the hypocrisy of "GTA shows violence against women, so we'll ban it, even though we'll sell all those other games which likely also have violence against women" is hilarious.

But even soccer moms know what GTA is. And GTA is bad.
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Grumman
PostPosted: 2014-12-05 03:06pm 

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Joined: 2011-12-10 10:13am
Posts: 1722
TheFeniX wrote:
You can't just stop at not buying it for your kid. Because then Timmy down the road might buy it and your precious little child might be corrupted.

They can't even fall back on that - it was already literally illegal for Target to sell GTA5 to a child.

The claims made by the petition are equal parts lies about the game that have already been debunked by the government before the petition was even made (because it would be illegal to sell the game to anybody if they were true) and bigotry that classifies treating male and female NPCs the same (i.e. being able to kill both men and women) as "misogynistic".
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TheFeniX
PostPosted: 2014-12-05 04:11pm 

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Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
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Location: Texas
Grumman wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:
You can't just stop at not buying it for your kid. Because then Timmy down the road might buy it and your precious little child might be corrupted.
They can't even fall back on that - it was already literally illegal for Target to sell GTA5 to a child.
I meant that Timmy's parents might buy it because they don't care. What exactly are the legal penalties for letting your child play an 18+ game and getting caught? What do they do if they find you legally purchased banned games through a proxy or something? I can't find anything on what they actually do about it.
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White Haven
PostPosted: 2014-12-05 07:34pm 

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Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Posts: 6105
Location: Richmond, Virginia: The Capitol of Treason
That's the really adorable thing about this whole mess; it stemmed from an online petition that went far, far out of its way to imply that GTAV was being sold to children. If that were the case, however, the whiny little shits organizing the petition could be doing such fun things as calling the police, which is both more effective and far, far more honest.
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bilateralrope
PostPosted: 2014-12-05 07:46pm 

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Location: New Zealand
It was being advertised as a toy.
Image
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Jub
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 03:43am 

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Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
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Location: British Columbia, Canada
bilateralrope wrote:
It was being advertised as a toy.
Image


Yes, and any parent that ignored the R18+ sticker just because it was in that section is an idiot what has no right to complain just because they bought something for their kid with literally zero research.
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bilateralrope
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 05:07am 

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Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Posts: 2275
Location: New Zealand
True.

But from where I sit, it seems that Target was advertising GTA 5 to children with that advertising. It seems that they were hoping for parents to ignore the R18+ sticker or they think that all video games are childrens toys. Either way, Target's behaviour is something that should draw complaints from the people who pay attention to those stickers.
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Jub
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 06:02am 

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Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Posts: 1374
Location: British Columbia, Canada
bilateralrope wrote:
True.

But from where I sit, it seems that Target was advertising GTA 5 to children with that advertising. It seems that they were hoping for parents to ignore the R18+ sticker or they think that all video games are childrens toys. Either way, Target's behaviour is something that should draw complaints from the people who pay attention to those stickers.


Games are still toys, and complex model kits, puzzles, and board games for adults can often be found in toy sections in stores. How is this any different than advertising an ages 12+ board game and getting backlash from parents of younger children about how unsuitable it was for their needs?
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 11:16am 

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Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Posts: 22458
Because the worst that's going to happen if you give a child a toy or puzzle that's "too hard" for their age group is that they are confused... and they might learn valuable thinking skills ahead of time; there's a reason gifted children are routinely given books and games that are 'too hard' for their nominal age.

That is a different category of consequence than having your child playing a game full of casual felonies where prostitution is a gameplay mechanic and blowing up police is a major form of entertainment. There are, under a lot of theories of childrearing, good reasons why you want to control the child's knowledge of these topics until they reach an age of rationality, partial maturity, and something resembling a moral compass.
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Jub
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 12:47pm 

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Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Posts: 1374
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Simon_Jester wrote:
Because the worst that's going to happen if you give a child a toy or puzzle that's "too hard" for their age group is that they are confused... and they might learn valuable thinking skills ahead of time; there's a reason gifted children are routinely given books and games that are 'too hard' for their nominal age.


Or a child swallows a piece and chokes to death, or gets poisoned from something in a science kit, or has some other mishap. That's he actual worst case scenario. In any case, the point is, that parents need to pay attention to their kids and any parent doing that won't be buying that an 18+ rated game.

Quote:
That is a different category of consequence than having your child playing a game full of casual felonies where prostitution is a gameplay mechanic and blowing up police is a major form of entertainment. There are, under a lot of theories of childrearing, good reasons why you want to control the child's knowledge of these topics until they reach an age of rationality, partial maturity, and something resembling a moral compass.


I don't care about theories show me hard proof that video games have ever made anybody that wasn't already predisposed to violence into a danger to others? If violent video games really did make one more violent, should we be bracing for a crime wave right now? GTA came out 13 years ago on the PS2 and restrictions on the sale of video games were more lax at that time. Plus if a kid played that game at as young as age 5, he'd be a legal adult by now, so please show me all the social ills that have cropped up due to these violent games?
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 03:30pm 

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Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Posts: 22458
Jub wrote:
Or a child swallows a piece and chokes to death, or gets poisoned from something in a science kit, or has some other mishap. That's he actual worst case scenario. In any case, the point is, that parents need to pay attention to their kids and any parent doing that won't be buying that an 18+ rated game.
Swallowing pieces is more of an issue with parents watching the children directly, not keeping track of their toys- it's not like there's any shortage of other things that a child can choke on. Getting poisoned from a chemistry set is an issue... and it's already had a huge effect on what kind of chemistry sets are even available. Nobody in their right mind lets a child, even a twelve or fourteen year old, play with concentrated sulfuric acid.

Quote:
Quote:
That is a different category of consequence than having your child playing a game full of casual felonies where prostitution is a gameplay mechanic and blowing up police is a major form of entertainment. There are, under a lot of theories of childrearing, good reasons why you want to control the child's knowledge of these topics until they reach an age of rationality, partial maturity, and something resembling a moral compass.
I don't care about theories show me hard proof that video games have ever made anybody that wasn't already predisposed to violence into a danger to others? If violent video games really did make one more violent, should we be bracing for a crime wave right now? GTA came out 13 years ago on the PS2 and restrictions on the sale of video games were more lax at that time. Plus if a kid played that game at as young as age 5, he'd be a legal adult by now, so please show me all the social ills that have cropped up due to these violent games?
[/quote]1) It's damn near impossible to show causation in psychology and you know it. Single anecdotal cases are useless*. Large statistical correlations are more significant, but how on Earth are we to do a longitudinal study that reliably singles out one cultural stimulus out of many? You're asking for a type of evidence that basically cannot exist.

*(For every "this kid was locked in a closet every time he talked back to his mother and turned into a serial killer" case there's a "both my parents beat me with metal bars and I turned out fine except for the broken bones.")
________________

More to the point, the argument "the children will be more violent if they play violent video games" is NOT WHAT I SAID. You're strawmanning me.

The argument is as follows: for children to grow up functional, they need to develop a meaningful sense of right and wrong.* Children are born largely amoral- unable to fully understand the needs, interests, or rights of others, bad at foreseeing the consequences of their actions. Teaching responsibility and the moral sense is a very high priority for anyone who wants to get childrearing right.

Unfortunately, there is no scientifically defined "here is how to raise children with a moral sense" in the sense that one can have instructions for "here is how to forge steel." Parents do their best, but it's more art than science. And one of the major concerns is that children are very good at misunderstanding and misapplying 'lessons' they 'learn' from observing certain behaviors. Children are great at learning by example, but not so great at interpreting what they are seeing correctly and without bias.

This leads to kids thinking stuff like "Bobby steals people's stuff all the time, and it's hilarious, so stealing things is harmless fun!" Or "You didn't do what I want you to do, so why should I do what you say I have to do?"

And as yet, nobody knows how to raise children to bypass this- how to give them the judgment and common sense adults use to understand when a rule should be followed and when it shoudn't.

So from the point of view of the parent, it is reasonable to want to control the child's access to depictions of violence or crime until that child is, in the parent's judgment, old enough to understand that what they are seeing represents unlawful, improper conduct.
________________________

*This is one of many things. They also need to develop a variety of important behavior patterns. Like being able to take turns, to share, to divide up a complex task responsibly among a group of peers, to control the urge to escalate a situation out of vindictiveness, and resist the impulse to make a scene in public... and we've all seen what happens to people deficient in these areas for whatever reason. They become a burden on all around them and are often labeled "childish."
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Jub
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 04:16pm 

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Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Posts: 1374
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Simon_Jester wrote:
Swallowing pieces is more of an issue with parents watching the children directly, not keeping track of their toys- it's not like there's any shortage of other things that a child can choke on. Getting poisoned from a chemistry set is an issue... and it's already had a huge effect on what kind of chemistry sets are even available. Nobody in their right mind lets a child, even a twelve or fourteen year old, play with concentrated sulfuric acid.


Now take the logical step. Why can we expect parents to be responsible with those toys but not with video games? If parents were as responsible with video games as they were with other toys they'd use one of the following options:

1) The existing rating system
2) Online reviews which show in detail the contents to the game
3) The parental controls built into modern consoles
4) Their own eyes, in Australia if they see the game isn't suitable for their child after purchase they can get a refund with 7 days

None of these options are the responsibility of the store so I don't understand the outrage. I especially don't understand it because the type of person who would sign this petition isn't a person who would accidentally buy a game like this, and people that buy this game for their kids are either too lazy and ignorant to research a game before buying it or, have made a conscious choice about what is okay for their child. Which of these options necessitate a store not advertising a game in a way that they deem will sell more copies?

Quote:
1) It's damn near impossible to show causation in psychology and you know it. Single anecdotal cases are useless*. Large statistical correlations are more significant, but how on Earth are we to do a longitudinal study that reliably singles out one cultural stimulus out of many? You're asking for a type of evidence that basically cannot exist.

*(For every "this kid was locked in a closet every time he talked back to his mother and turned into a serial killer" case there's a "both my parents beat me with metal bars and I turned out fine except for the broken bones.")


Then why raise the issue of violence in media at all? You admit that we can't reliably test it, and the effects aren't so obvious that society has become measurably worse; so why the concern over these games?

Quote:
The argument is as follows: for children to grow up functional, they need to develop a meaningful sense of right and wrong.* Children are born largely amoral- unable to fully understand the needs, interests, or rights of others, bad at foreseeing the consequences of their actions. Teaching responsibility and the moral sense is a very high priority for anyone who wants to get childrearing right.

Unfortunately, there is no scientifically defined "here is how to raise children with a moral sense" in the sense that one can have instructions for "here is how to forge steel." Parents do their best, but it's more art than science. And one of the major concerns is that children are very good at misunderstanding and misapplying 'lessons' they 'learn' from observing certain behaviors. Children are great at learning by example, but not so great at interpreting what they are seeing correctly and without bias.

This leads to kids thinking stuff like "Bobby steals people's stuff all the time, and it's hilarious, so stealing things is harmless fun!" Or "You didn't do what I want you to do, so why should I do what you say I have to do?"

And as yet, nobody knows how to raise children to bypass this- how to give them the judgment and common sense adults use to understand when a rule should be followed and when it shoudn't.


Then don't buy your child those types of games and expose them to that type of media. If they are exposed to it, sit down and talk to them and ensure that they have correct context for what they have seen. Don't shame them or punish them for watching things that they're naturally curious about (violent media, pornography, etc.) instead give it context and explain to them why they shouldn't watch it. There, no manual required, just time and some common sense.

Quote:
So from the point of view of the parent, it is reasonable to want to control the child's access to depictions of violence or crime until that child is, in the parent's judgment, old enough to understand that what they are seeing represents unlawful, improper conduct.


Hence the existing legal penalties for stores caught selling games to minors, the warning stickers, the parental controls built into consoles?

Also, what the does anything you just said have to do with why the game shouldn't have been advertised for in the toy section? We've established that other dangerous toys not made for every age of child (or even for children at all) can be advertised in the toy section, so why are video games in some way exceptional especially given the law of the nation this story comes from.
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bilateralrope
PostPosted: 2014-12-06 10:18pm 

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Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
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Jub: Is it wrong of me to expect retail stores to treat adults only video games the same as they treat any other adults only product ?

Is it wrong for responsible parents to complain when a store is targeting one adults only product to children ?

It doesn't have to be video games. It could be adults only movies mixed in with childrens movies. It could be sex toys mixed in with childrens toys.
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Jub
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 08:53am 

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Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Posts: 1374
Location: British Columbia, Canada
bilateralrope wrote:
Jub: Is it wrong of me to expect retail stores to treat adults only video games the same as they treat any other adults only product ?

Is it wrong for responsible parents to complain when a store is targeting one adults only product to children ?

It doesn't have to be video games. It could be adults only movies mixed in with childrens movies. It could be sex toys mixed in with childrens toys.


You mean like how the video sections of major retailers have movies from, to use the Canadian movie rating system, G (for all audiences to 18A and R (The adults only ratings) on a single shelf with only the movies specifically for very young children specifically separated? Games, as you will have doubtless noted, are also not sorted by rating but often by name or by new release status with games of all ratings sharing the same shelf space. Not to mention that R rated really isn't adult only at any rate as teens are commonly the target audience for many an R rated sophomoric comedy. So unless these acts and the way movies are advertised offend you greatly I don't see why video games should be treated any differently.

Now as for selling children sex toys, so long as adults aren't forcing sexual behavior on children too young to handle it, what's wrong with giving a child in the sexually frustrating grips of puberty another avenue for release? Masturbation and the use of sex aids should be covered by responsible sexual education, rather than be something teens have to discover on their own (usually in a distorted fashion via porn) or learn by trial and error. Sex is something kids do, it's about time we acknowledge that and start making things available to them at the age where they need to start learning aboutit.
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General Zod
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 05:52pm 

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Joined: 2003-11-18 04:08pm
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Simon_Jester wrote:
Because the worst that's going to happen if you give a child a toy or puzzle that's "too hard" for their age group is that they are confused... and they might learn valuable thinking skills ahead of time; there's a reason gifted children are routinely given books and games that are 'too hard' for their nominal age.

That is a different category of consequence than having your child playing a game full of casual felonies where prostitution is a gameplay mechanic and blowing up police is a major form of entertainment. There are, under a lot of theories of childrearing, good reasons why you want to control the child's knowledge of these topics until they reach an age of rationality, partial maturity, and something resembling a moral compass.


So how come nobody ever raises a stink about children getting hold of bibles?
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mr friendly guy
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 07:12pm 

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Joined: 2004-12-12 11:55pm
Posts: 8254
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia
General Zod wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Because the worst that's going to happen if you give a child a toy or puzzle that's "too hard" for their age group is that they are confused... and they might learn valuable thinking skills ahead of time; there's a reason gifted children are routinely given books and games that are 'too hard' for their nominal age.

That is a different category of consequence than having your child playing a game full of casual felonies where prostitution is a gameplay mechanic and blowing up police is a major form of entertainment. There are, under a lot of theories of childrearing, good reasons why you want to control the child's knowledge of these topics until they reach an age of rationality, partial maturity, and something resembling a moral compass.


So how come nobody ever raises a stink about children getting hold of bibles?

According to TYT someone did create a humourous petition in response to Target's ban asking the same thing happen to Bibles.
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AniThyng
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 08:39pm 

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Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Posts: 2024
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
mr friendly guy wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Because the worst that's going to happen if you give a child a toy or puzzle that's "too hard" for their age group is that they are confused... and they might learn valuable thinking skills ahead of time; there's a reason gifted children are routinely given books and games that are 'too hard' for their nominal age.

That is a different category of consequence than having your child playing a game full of casual felonies where prostitution is a gameplay mechanic and blowing up police is a major form of entertainment. There are, under a lot of theories of childrearing, good reasons why you want to control the child's knowledge of these topics until they reach an age of rationality, partial maturity, and something resembling a moral compass.


So how come nobody ever raises a stink about children getting hold of bibles?

According to TYT someone did create a humourous petition in response to Target's ban asking the same thing happen to Bibles.


I don't know about bibles, but I can imagine someone making a fuss over a Quran...
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bilateralrope
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 08:54pm 

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Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Posts: 2275
Location: New Zealand
GTA V FANS LAUNCH PETITION TO FORCE TARGET TO CHANGE ITS VIOLENT NAME AND LOGO

Jub wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:
Jub: Is it wrong of me to expect retail stores to treat adults only video games the same as they treat any other adults only product ?

Is it wrong for responsible parents to complain when a store is targeting one adults only product to children ?

It doesn't have to be video games. It could be adults only movies mixed in with childrens movies. It could be sex toys mixed in with childrens toys.


You mean like how the video sections of major retailers have movies from, to use the Canadian movie rating system, G (for all audiences to 18A and R (The adults only ratings) on a single shelf with only the movies specifically for very young children specifically separated? Games, as you will have doubtless noted, are also not sorted by rating but often by name or by new release status with games of all ratings sharing the same shelf space.


Fair point. If the selection is small, sticking all the video games together is fine. As is sticking all the movies together.
What isn't fine is sticking an R18 video game in with completely unrelated childrens toys. Which is what Target did.

Quote:
Not to mention that R rated really isn't adult only at any rate as teens are commonly the target audience for many an R rated sophomoric comedy. So unless these acts and the way movies are advertised offend you greatly


We are talking about Australian ratings here. R18 means:
Quote:
Restricted (R18+) – Contains material that is considered unsuitable for exhibition by persons under the age of 18. People under 18 may not legally buy, rent, exhibit or view R18+ classified content. A person may be asked for proof of their age before purchasing, hiring or viewing R18+ films and computer games at a retail store or cinema. Some material classified R18+ may also be offensive to adults. The content is high in impact.

An Australian R18 does mean adults only.

Quote:
I don't see why video games should be treated any differently.


The problem is that the advertisement I linked shows that games are being treated differently. Unless you happen to know of a store advertising R18 movies alongside childrens toys like Target did.

I'm not sure if Target is going to start treating video games the same as it treats movies*, of if it's just going to continue on treating R18 games as childrens products and hope that nobody complains when it's not a GTA game.

*If you want an example of consistent treatment, look at The Warehouse (New Zealand department store). Today I found out that they stopped selling all R18 games and movies on Nov 25 because they didn't fit in with their 'family values'.

Quote:
Now as for selling children sex toys, so long as adults aren't forcing sexual behavior on children too young to handle it, what's wrong with giving a child in the sexually frustrating grips of puberty another avenue for release? Masturbation and the use of sex aids should be covered by responsible sexual education, rather than be something teens have to discover on their own (usually in a distorted fashion via porn) or learn by trial and error. Sex is something kids do, it's about time we acknowledge that and start making things available to them at the age where they need to start learning aboutit.

The point I was trying to make is that stores do not do mix the sex toys in with the childrens toys. They aren't on the same shelves. They aren't in the same part of the advertising. How many stores even stock both ?

If a store advertised a sex toy alongside childrens toys and parents complained, would you be telling those parents to shut up ?
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General Zod
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 08:59pm 

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Joined: 2003-11-18 04:08pm
Posts: 27347
Location: F you
AniThyng wrote:

I don't know about bibles, but I can imagine someone making a fuss over a Quran...


I just think the complaint is hollow when parents happily let their children read a book filled with incest, rape, genocide and bestiality.
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AniThyng
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 09:05pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Posts: 2024
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
General Zod wrote:
AniThyng wrote:

I don't know about bibles, but I can imagine someone making a fuss over a Quran...


I just think the complaint is hollow when parents happily let their children read a book filled with incest, rape, genocide and bestiality.


I would have gotten away with reading GoT long before I could get away with watching it, so this is a common thing.

Though I suspect the same kind of people that find GTA V to be promoting terrible values would see an issue with GoT as well, if they choose to make a fuss of it.

That being said, while I see the inherent logic of your argument, most people really don't see the Bible in that way and I think it's really not a useful argument to make outside of SDN.
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General Zod
PostPosted: 2014-12-07 09:23pm 

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Posts: 27347
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AniThyng wrote:
That being said, while I see the inherent logic of your argument, most people really don't see the Bible in that way and I think it's really not a useful argument to make outside of SDN.


The point wouldn't be to get them to ban anything anyway, just to show them that they're singling out stuff based on stupid, arbitrary criteria.
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