Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

Post Reply
User avatar
Raesene
Jedi Master
Posts: 1299
Joined: 2006-09-09 01:56pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-09-27 07:02am

Anyone else playing it ?

Got it yesterday, started playing today. Reminds me very much of Baldurs Gate 2, in a good way.

Like the graphics and character interaction, but have to get used again to the combat system and character mangement.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22005
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-09-27 07:26am

Have it myself finishing off Shadowrun Dragonfall before starting it up but it looks interesting and it's Pathfinder so lots of fun. Tricky bit is determining what class/combo to play since I have way to much time in Pathfinder and it seems a lot of my favorite combos are not exactly in the game.

It does however have a TON of Pathfinder classes and feats but I'll say right now the creature assumes you kind of know pathfinder and the archetypes don't exactly spell out what they offer over base you have to go looking.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 17762
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-09-27 09:40pm

I backed the Kickstarter, so I've been at it. I'm having serious trouble finding the bandit camp; the Thorn Ford map is empty for some reason.

Also, they dropped a very big patch today, which I'm patching now.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
Raesene
Jedi Master
Posts: 1299
Joined: 2006-09-09 01:56pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-09-28 05:29pm

Got through he first part (with lots of respawning) and liked it. It's a game that will eat up a lot of my spare time. Never having played the Adventure Path the game is based on I can't comment on how faithful they followed it, but if they did I'm in for some good hours of gaming.

Having reached the Kingdom-building stage, I think I'm going to enjoy that. The interface is useable; it's not Civilization, but a certain SimCity-feeling emerged.
For me, it brings back memories of the first RPG campaign I participated - Birthright for AD&D 2nd edition.

The few problems I had (return to main menu after a few autosaves, but those were loadable so no data lost) were fixed with the first path a day after release, so no complaints from me.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Jub » 2018-09-28 05:44pm

Swarm enemies that deal lasting strength damage are complete dicks, especially when you can't run from combat if you get caught in a small arena. Tip: equip those everburning torches, prepare your AoE spells, and hand out splash weapons like they're going out of style.

Beyond that minor issue, it's pretty fun so far. Just be warned the same encounters will kick your ass and they devs don't mind letting your second level party run into a troll they can barely hit that two shots each of your characters.

User avatar
Highlord Laan
Jedi Master
Posts: 1183
Joined: 2009-11-08 02:36pm
Location: Christo-fundie Theofascist Dominion of Nebraskistan

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Highlord Laan » 2018-09-30 01:58am

I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.

User avatar
Raesene
Jedi Master
Posts: 1299
Joined: 2006-09-09 01:56pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-09-30 03:19am

Highlord Laan wrote:
2018-09-30 01:58am
I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
I've had to reload several times after a combat went not my way, but that's normal for me in PC RPG games.
A few encounters were too difficult, so I left them for later. While I dislike that at the gaming table, I have no problem with it here as I can just go back to the last save.

I haven't encountered a case of bad gamemastering yet.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


bilateralrope
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3762
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-09-30 03:20am

Highlord Laan wrote:
2018-09-30 01:58am
I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
Do you have examples of these antics ?

User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22005
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-09-30 07:28am

bilateralrope wrote:
2018-09-30 03:20am
Highlord Laan wrote:
2018-09-30 01:58am
I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
Do you have examples of these antics ?
Nearly every fight see's you starting nose to nose with the enemy so goodbye ranged characters you'll be within 30 feet every time even when your "ambushing" the enemy.

Also there's wonky thing going on with enemy stats because of double dipping.
Here's the link on reddit

But to quote discosoc
discosoc wrote: *Snip
TLDR: Enemy Difficulty changes the modifier scores (but not the base values) of the main attributes, skills, AC, Attacks, and Saves, by -2, +0, +2, +4, for weak, normal, strengthened, insane options accordingly. I'll go into why below, but you might notice attacks and AC get double-dipped due to the way the math is handled. I'm not sure if that's intentional or not, but it results in a rather steep increase in certain key stat values.

*Snip
It looks more complicated that it is, but gist is the math works out so that the weak, normal, strengthened, and insane options grant a -2, 0, +2, +4 bonus to the modifiers of various stats. The important distinction to make here is that the bonus is added to the modifier and not the base score. So if a Troll has a Strength of 26 (+8), bumping the difficulty up one notch would turn it into a 26 (+10). Notice that the actual Strength score doesn't increase; just the modifier.

Anyway, it does that for the six core stats (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha), and then does it again for perception, AC, attack, and saves. The problem here is that the "derivative" stats are double-dipping when the difficulty changes. So a Normal Troll has +8 Strength mod, but a Strengthened Troll will have a +10 and a +2 attack modifier. So end result is a Strengthened Troll effectively has 8 higher strength than normal. If you bump it up to an Insane Troll, it gets a +12 Strength mod and a +4 attack modifier, effectively granting the troll 16 Strength higher than normal.

The exact same thing is happening with AC, because it gets both a Dexterity mod boost and a flat AC boost. Same with saving throws and perception.

I think the question I have now is if they intended the difficulty bonus to double-dip like this or not. The above code uses two distinct variables (value, value2) for the basic and derivative bonuses, yet the values end up the same. I suspect they might have wanted them separate so that the combat log "clearly" shows the attack and AC "difficulty" bonuses listed on their own. I guess I just feel like the effectively +4 bonus to attack and defense per difficulty level ends up rather frustrating.

Lastly, here's some stat information for the Troll in the Old Oak map using different settings.

Weak Initiative Modifier: +2 (14) BAB: 6 Strength: +6 (22) AC: 16 (10 + Dex +2, Natural +7, Size -1, Difficulty -2)

Normal Initiative Modifier: +4 (18) BAB: 6 Strength: +8 (26) AC: 20 (10 + Dex +4, Natural +7, Size -1)

Strengthened Initiative Modifier: +6 (22) BAB: 6 Strength: +10 (30) AC: 24 (10 + Dex +6, Natural +7, Size -1, Difficulty +2)

Insane Initiative Modifier: +8 (26) BAB: 6 Strength: +12 (34) AC: 28 (10 + Dex +8, Natural +7, Size -1, Difficulty +4)

It's worth pointing out that most everything I've looked at suggests that the "Weak" difficulty option is the one closest to the actual rules -- more or less. For example, here's a basic Pathfinder Troll. 16 AC. Dex mod +2, Strength mod +5, regen of 5, a Rend Attack... It's basically a Man-Eater Troll from the video game. "Normal," however, is a bit tougher.
TLDR from his notes is the last bit. "Weak difficulty"= what core monsters are in Pathfinder so here's a Pathfinder troll

Code: Select all

Troll CR 5
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 14; (+2 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 63 (6d8+36); regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee bite +8 (1d8+5), 2 claws +8 (1d6+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+7)

STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6
Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 22
Feats Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Perception)
So normal troll +2 to initiative +8 to hit, 16 ac defense, he rolls a d20+8 to hit, you need to roll a 16 or higher to hit him.
Comparable to
Weak Initiative Modifier: +2 (14) BAB: 6 Strength: +6 (22) AC: 16

But a "normal" difficulty troll is again
Normal Initiative Modifier: +4 (18) BAB: 6 Strength: +8 (26) AC: 20
So even on "normal" difficultly every single monster in the game will have anywhere from +2 to +4 more AC than normal more damage than normal and a better chance of hitting you, the troll for example goes from a +8 to hit to a +12 and his defense jumps by 4 to AC 20 making him quantitatively better at hitting and harder to it.

Because the game double dips the stats providing a flat +2 to all ability scores for every difficultly rank you go up and a generic +2 bonus on top of that, so Mr troll gets a +2 bonus to AC from more dex at normal and a generic +2 bonus to his armor class just because.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 17762
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-09-30 10:54pm

So apparently you can't pull advisors off of assignments to deal with urgent problems. I had a cult spring up that I had to address within three days of the warning, the only advisors it allowed me to send to deal with it were Jhod and Tristian, and they were both tied up doing other things. So now I have a permanent decadent cult presence in the barony that I cannot in any way deal with.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
Highlord Laan
Jedi Master
Posts: 1183
Joined: 2009-11-08 02:36pm
Location: Christo-fundie Theofascist Dominion of Nebraskistan

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Highlord Laan » 2018-10-01 03:19pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-09-30 10:54pm
So now I have a permanent decadent cult presence in the barony that I cannot in any way deal with.
Everyone needs a little Slaanesh in their lives.
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.

User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7744
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Solauren » 2018-10-01 08:00pm

I only loaded it long enough for the GOG updater to be triggered next time I reboot.

I'm waiting a bit before playing it, if only because initial releases never go flawlessly.
\

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 17762
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-02 05:26pm

Evidently the Windows version of today's hotfix makes the spell lists invisible. :lol:

Anyway, does the game have a gigantic memory leak for anyone else? The longer I play, the longer load times get, and if I exit the game after playing for more than a couple of hours, my (powerful desktop) computer takes at least ten minutes to recover enough to run a browser or even open Task Manager to see what's wrong without lagging.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22005
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-10-02 06:12pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-10-02 05:26pm
Evidently the Windows version of today's hotfix makes the spell lists invisible. :lol:
Actually today's patch was last week's patch because they somehow uploaded the Windows 1.0 patch to the servers today, not for the Mac or Linux version but the windows patch is from last week.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 17762
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-02 06:24pm

Ah. I just read the patch notes where they frantically apologized for that happening.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 17762
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-04 11:48pm

So... my barony up and collapsed with no explanation a couple of weeks after I defeated the trolls. There were no failed events, and no vital kingdom stats anywhere near zero; the final report tells me nothing and I can't figure it out. I did take longer defeating the trolls than I probably should have, getting bogged down in sidequests, but I did put the kibosh on them and have no idea what's destroying the state. It's weird.

This happened while skipping a couple of weeks in the kingdom management interface to try to get to the end of some events. I've reloaded a save and am going adventuring to try and finish some quests to see if that helps. Also, most of my party has a boatload of negative levels and I can't find more than one thing of diamond dust; restoration requires two per casting. Anyone know where I can find any?
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
Raesene
Jedi Master
Posts: 1299
Joined: 2006-09-09 01:56pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-10-05 01:57am

I think I bought my diamond dust from Jhod, he should be in your capital between the residence and the tavern.

I noticed that skipping weeks (even when on 14 day missions with an advisor) leads to a lot of missions being awarded, so I got a lot of trouble. That caused morale to collapse (my population became first worried, then troubled), but not assigning advisors to do anything for a while except upcoming problems fixed that for while.

By the way, anyone found out if and how I can abort a mission and reassign the advisor except ont he starting day?
Some problems are really serious, and I don`t want advisors doing nothing while waiting for a crisis to come.

Also, some missions don`t disappear although obsolete - I restored the temple, so I don`t want to tear it down afterwards. The resoration success even said the other one is now absolete, yet I still get it offered.

And missions expire although there is no time limit stated - I ignored Linzis quest for some time because I didn`t have her in the party when I found what she was looking for, so after a few weeks she told me `nevermind what we talked about, it wasn`t that important´ just as I wanted to go and get it.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 17762
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-10 07:19pm

Spoilers for the ending (I think) of the Season of Bloom arc. Spoiler
So I found the Everblooming Flower by falling through the right fissure in the Womb of Lamashtu. But when I destroy it, it simply sprouts back and offers the exact same dialogue. What gives?
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
Raesene
Jedi Master
Posts: 1299
Joined: 2006-09-09 01:56pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-10-11 01:44am

Rogue 9:
Spoiler
you have to destroy the plant by poisoning it using some water from a lake; not there yet, but found that in one of the forums.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


Post Reply