Is Democracy Working?

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Jub
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Is Democracy Working?

Post by Jub »

In the past, I've been attacked on this forum for suggesting that the current system of democracy as used by most western nations is at best terribly flawed and at worst actively harmful. The main reason that those in favor of democracy cite for not desiring a change tends to boil down to either claiming that it offers a check against corrupt officials abusing power or that it enfranchises people and that this enfranchisement is a good thing. Given current events such as Brexit and Trump's term as POTUS, and even past events like the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, I wonder if this forum still feels that Democray's flaws outweigh their benefits?
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Gandalf »

With the US, it does show that democracy requires hard work to function well. When officials get away with varied crimes, it encourages the next one to go further to keep pushing that line. Media needs regulation to prevent absurd misinformation campaigns. And so on.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Lord Revan »

I think the best way to say this what is attributed to Winston Churchill "Democracy is the worst way to govern, expect all the other ways that have been tried", essentially as bad as Democracy is all the other ways are even worse.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Solauren »

Your making a blanket statement over what can be vastly different approaches.

The problem with any system is always going to be: People looking for ways to manipulate it to their advantage.

You'll never have a system that is perfectly defended against possible ways to manipulate it, because people, laws, and technology are always evolving and changing.

However, every political system is that way.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Jub »

Solauren wrote: 2021-01-07 02:56pmYour making a blanket statement over what can be vastly different approaches.
Indeed, but I could name an example of the failings of every single Democracy that currently exists if I cared to dig a little.

As it stands, my single largest issue with Democracy is that it leaves vital choices in the hands of the least qualified people in the nation; those being the voting public. We may be qualified in certain areas, but almost none of us know enough to even know how little we know in most areas of running a nation. So why leave anything in our unqualified hands?
Gandalf wrote: 2021-01-07 02:48pmWith the US, it does show that democracy requires hard work to function well. When officials get away with varied crimes, it encourages the next one to go further to keep pushing that line. Media needs regulation to prevent absurd misinformation campaigns. And so on.
What's stopping us from trying other systems or even from making changes to at least have the best version of a flawed system?
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Crazedwraith »

Jub wrote: 2021-01-07 03:06pm
Solauren wrote: 2021-01-07 02:56pmYour making a blanket statement over what can be vastly different approaches.
Indeed, but I could name an example of the failings of every single Democracy that currently exists if I cared to dig a little.
Then... do it?
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Solauren »

Jub wrote: 2021-01-07 03:06pm
Solauren wrote: 2021-01-07 02:56pmYour making a blanket statement over what can be vastly different approaches.
Indeed, but I could name an example of the failings of every single Democracy that currently exists if I cared to dig a little.

I'll take 30 then.
10 Federal, and 20 State level

Within the last 12 months. (Covid-19 pandemic is not allowed, as that's too easy)
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Gandalf »

Jub wrote: 2021-01-07 03:06pm
Gandalf wrote: 2021-01-07 02:48pmWith the US, it does show that democracy requires hard work to function well. When officials get away with varied crimes, it encourages the next one to go further to keep pushing that line. Media needs regulation to prevent absurd misinformation campaigns. And so on.
What's stopping us from trying other systems or even from making changes to at least have the best version of a flawed system?
The will of the populace mainly. Motivate them and you're sorted.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

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Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-01-07 03:12pmThen... do it?
Wealth inequality, both within a nation and between the nations of this world, is a failing of democracy as much as it is a failing of capitalism. Is my list complete if I assign that to 30 democratic nations?

How about current environmental concerns, would they count? The failings in this area are manifold and apply to every democracy as not one has yet done enough to fix our dire situation.
Solauren wrote: 2021-01-07 03:15pmI'll take 30 then.
10 Federal, and 20 State level

Within the last 12 months. (Covid-19 pandemic is not allowed, as that's too easy)
See above.

Also, are you actually so blind that you can't see that any issue in a democracy must be a failure of that democracy. In the US those examples include a lack of free public healthcare, the cost of education and the repayment of student debt, their military's deployment to several unwilling (or formerly unwilling) nations, the US-backed coups in South America, the US approach to the war on drugs, the US approach to the war on terror, the current US election... I could continue but I hope you're getting the point by now.
Gandalf wrote: 2021-01-07 03:19pmThe will of the populace mainly. Motivate them and you're sorted.
If the will of the populace isn't sufficient to make Democracy work why should we expect it to initiate a change in a positive direction if it were to pick one and back it?
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Crazedwraith »

Jub wrote: 2021-01-07 03:28pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-01-07 03:12pmThen... do it?
Wealth inequality, both within a nation and between the nations of this world, is a failing of democracy as much as it is a failing of capitalism. Is my list complete if I assign that to 30 democratic nations?

How about current environmental concerns, would they count? The failings in this area are manifold and apply to every democracy as not one has yet done enough to fix our dire situation.
The obvious rejoinder is that you've not established that these problems are caused intrisincly by democracy. Wealth inequality for example is a hallmark of many political systems. Not intrinsic to democracy.

Would another system do better at solving these issues? I mean dictatorship maybe for climate change but that would depend entirely on the dictator in question.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Solauren »

SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, not blanket statements.

i.e
Here's three failures by Germany in the last year....
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Jub »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-01-07 03:50pmThe obvious rejoinder is that you've not established that these problems are caused intrisincly by democracy. Wealth inequality for example is a hallmark of many political systems. Not intrinsic to democracy.
Yes, but unlike other systems where the people have no say in things like wealth inequality a democracy gives its citizens the power to demand change. So we cannot judge the systems on equal footing. What we can judge is that people under democracy suffer and nothing changes; in many cases, issues only grow.
Would another system do better at solving these issues? I mean dictatorship maybe for climate change but that would depend entirely on the dictator in question.
It's difficult to say, but I wouldn't mind seeing what a nation run by a multinational series of councils of established experts in their fields would do. Sort of a UN of experts within a nation only without the stupid veto rights given to nations as a result of the cold war.
Solauren wrote: 2021-01-07 03:52pm SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, not blanket statements.

i.e
Here's three failures by Germany in the last year....
This isn't about specific symptoms but about the effects of the entire system on large scale goings-on in the world. Again see above for my reasoning behind blaming blanket issues on democracy and not simply accepting them as the inevitable result of human governance on a national scale.

If you're unwilling to engage and insist on nitpicking I'm going to cease replying to you.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Zaune »

What do you suggest we do instead, then?
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Crazedwraith »

Jub wrote: 2021-01-07 03:55pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-01-07 03:50pmThe obvious rejoinder is that you've not established that these problems are caused intrisincly by democracy. Wealth inequality for example is a hallmark of many political systems. Not intrinsic to democracy.
Yes, but unlike other systems where the people have no say in things like wealth inequality a democracy gives its citizens the power to demand change. So we cannot judge the systems on equal footing. What we can judge is that people under democracy suffer and nothing changes; in many cases, issues only grow.
This is again, long on sentiment and short on proof.

It may not seem it but things are getting better in the world. Poverty is down, hunger is down, disease is down, compared to a hundred years ago. (I'll admit my only source here is sfdebris videos, lol. )

There are certainly problems, yes, but even there, there is a slowly growing desire for change and improvement. Take many developed nation's stance on climate change and the Paris Accords for example.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Solauren »

Also, it is unfair to judge any large group on the specific failures of individuals. (Or in this case, of a system of government, on specific countries/districts)

You mentioned lack of free health care. Well, guess what....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ealth_care

It seems that most democracies/semi-democracies have Universal Health care. The United States is a glaring exception to that.


So, since you want to deal with blanket statements, I'll reply with a blanket statement.

"Globaly, Democracy is working. Unfortunately, each individual democracy will have it's own focus and concerns, and changing said focus and concerns, takes time. As any democracy is made up of large numbers of individual humans, they themselves have their own focus and concerns.

What makes it appear that any given democracy is failing, is often that viewer, having their OWN focus and concerns, that are not aligning with current political trends.

However, viewing Democracy as failing on a global scale, is two broad a statement, without pointing out specifics as to why you believe it is failing. Blanket statements, are rarely productive, or conductive to discussion."
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Jub »

Zaune wrote: 2021-01-07 04:18pm What do you suggest we do instead, then?
From literally the post above yours.

"I wouldn't mind seeing what a nation run by a multinational series of councils of established experts in their fields would do. Sort of a UN of experts within a nation only without the stupid veto rights given to nations as a result of the cold war."
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by ray245 »

Democracy like every form of government is merely a tool of society. Its entire inherent value lies in the societal desire to maintain such a system and ensure people play by the rules of the game.

Democracy is merely a mechanism that allows the population to express their views and allow it to influence politics in a slightly more direct manner. By itself, it does not further any agenda more than what the vast majority of the electorate believes in. Democracy is not the same as progressivism, not is it the same thing as having respect for human rights.

It is dangerous to conflate democracy with progressivism. That is the big mistake many western progressivist are making.
Jub wrote: 2021-01-07 05:16pm
Zaune wrote: 2021-01-07 04:18pm What do you suggest we do instead, then?
From literally the post above yours.

"I wouldn't mind seeing what a nation run by a multinational series of councils of established experts in their fields would do. Sort of a UN of experts within a nation only without the stupid veto rights given to nations as a result of the cold war."
There is no established experts in the field of running a country. Politics is not about implementing the right policy, it's about running and managing people. Even the world's leading experts in their field are not any less prone to politicking within their university departments. To ensure policies can be successfully passed, it requires consensus of the broader community. How you achieve it can be done in a variety of ways, but even the strongest dictatorship still requires some amount of consensus of the wider society at large.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by loomer »

You may find Hans Kelsen's The Essence and Value of Democracy to be of some interest. An excellent translation of it came out a few years back.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

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It's working less and less, it's been hijacked a long time ago by rich interests, todays situation has been 40 years in the making. Dismantling the welfare state, dismantling worker protections, reducing the states role in the economy, the capture of the media by right wing interests, the change has been so complete it has redefined in peoples minds what the state should do (it shouldn't do anything, and it's incompetent to boot, hurr hurr private sector efficiency). The free movement of capital and goods has disrupted communities and entire countries in ways that they have not recovered from in decades and it is now held as a holy and just goal on it's own.

We're on this course and we will not deviate from it. Because the people will not change the system, they cannot even fathom an alternative. They can imagine the earth barren and dead from climate change brought on by our liberal capitalist system, but they cannot imagine an alternative to capitalism either. I believe populism and the fascism it engenders, will only be corrected by a complete turnabout in global economic politics. That is, the near total destruction of free capitalist liberal market mode of thinking and return of strong government and trade barriers. Anything else will just keep on trucking towards more extreme trumpism and that's exactly what I believe will keep on happening since such a change will not happen. So doomed we are.

The parallels to the early 20th century are just getting more obvious by the day and I wonder if we'll have another world war in a few decades, seems to be what's required for people to snap out of the liberal economic thinking trap which has caused all this.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Bedlam »

Jub wrote: 2021-01-07 03:55pm
Would another system do better at solving these issues? I mean dictatorship maybe for climate change but that would depend entirely on the dictator in question.
It's difficult to say, but I wouldn't mind seeing what a nation run by a multinational series of councils of established experts in their fields would do. Sort of a UN of experts within a nation only without the stupid veto rights given to nations as a result of the cold war.
I think this would probably end up with a self selecting elite class which wouldn't have much motivation to better anyone outside of that class. The only ones who would be decide who was an expert would be the other experts and they can then control the means of education to ensure that only their own families or allies are in a position to rule. It obviously works if you assume that all your experts are going to act for the betterment of all, but if you assume that almost every system will work.

There is also the issue of who controls and allocates resources to the different councils. The council on Space exploration will be full of Space exploration experts who obviously decide that Space exploration is very important, who chooses that it's not efficient to spend money on that compared to say agriculture. Again if everybody has a perfect overview they could choose what is best but in reality even the most intelligent people can often get tunnel vision on their own specialty.

The multinational side of the council is interesting but depending on how your experts are selected it means that groups in side one country can easily be disenfranchised. Under our current system how many of the experts would be from ethnic minorities? Maybe most of the experts on topic A come from country Z should they be given automatic authority over country B even though the conditions there are different from Z? Again you can argue in your system experts will be selected race / sex / gender blind but how will this be managed? How do you get from the current system to this one?
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Remember that "established experts in their fields" are the ones that came up with the idea of eugenics (and all that resulted, from sterilization of native communities and other undesirables to the Holocaust). The notion that just because someone is an "expert" that they will somehow automatically allow for "enlightened" rule is farcical, there are endless examples throughout history showing the folly of this approach. I mean, hell, your "council of established experts" really isn't that much different from Athenian democracy.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

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Ziggy Stardust wrote: 2021-01-08 12:39pm Remember that "established experts in their fields" are the ones that came up with the idea of eugenics (and all that resulted, from sterilization of native communities and other undesirables to the Holocaust). The notion that just because someone is an "expert" that they will somehow automatically allow for "enlightened" rule is farcical, there are endless examples throughout history showing the folly of this approach. I mean, hell, your "council of established experts" really isn't that much different from Athenian democracy.
Even experts in their established field can be wrong about their own subject if it is something new and novel to deal with. Sweden's entire pandemic strategy was to leave it to the experts. The problem was that their experts in epidemiology (Tegnell) believed in the idea of herd immunity and refuse to back down.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

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There is nothing that stops experts, whether scientific or otherwise, from lying and defrauding the public. And as long as there has been incentive to do so, there have been many examples of precisely that happening, such as the lead industry and tobacco industry's attempts to protect their products from being regulated. Unscrupulous weather and climate scientists today that are hired by the oil industry to lie about the scientific consensus and create easily debunked alternative theories are another example. For an example of non-scientists who are experts in their field, here's a Forgotten Weapons video about why you should always get a second quote on any appraisal of an antique and should NEVER let a broker also take the role of broker and dealer AND appraiser simultaneously because they WILL abuse that to their own gain (warning: the story takes 30 minutes to tell).

Point is that expert testimony is not a substitute for the facts in themselves, which is why Appeal to Authority is a fallacy, and meritocracies are not necessarily better than democracies. Either way the system is only as good as the moral integrity of the people running it.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by ray245 »

Formless wrote: 2021-01-08 03:20pm There is nothing that stops experts, whether scientific or otherwise, from lying and defrauding the public. And as long as there has been incentive to do so, there have been many examples of precisely that happening, such as the lead industry and tobacco industry's attempts to protect their products from being regulated. Unscrupulous weather and climate scientists today that are hired by the oil industry to lie about the scientific consensus and create easily debunked alternative theories are another example. For an example of non-scientists who are experts in their field, here's a Forgotten Weapons video about why you should always get a second quote on any appraisal of an antique and should NEVER let a broker also take the role of broker and dealer AND appraiser simultaneously because they WILL abuse that to their own gain (warning: the story takes 30 minutes to tell).

Point is that expert testimony is not a substitute for the facts in themselves, which is why Appeal to Authority is a fallacy, and meritocracies are not necessarily better than democracies. Either way the system is only as good as the moral integrity of the people running it.
Let's not forget the amount of experts in their field that can easily hold horrendous views. Scientists being racists isn't exactly all that uncommon. There are plenty of Scientists barking up the tree of Capitalism and etc.

A better system will be ensuring those in power are directly accountable to the people most vulnerable to their power. Democracy doesn't provide that because all it needs to do is to appeal to the majority. It's a system that inherently disadvantage those that suffers the most for being a minority.
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Re: Is Democracy Working?

Post by Elfdart »

Benjamin Franklin put it best when he said we'd have a republic, but only as long as we choose to keep it. He went on to say that despotism is inevitable once the People (which is to say, the political class) became corrupted because that's the only kind of government they're capable of.
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