Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7954
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by ray245 »



This is really quite interesting to watch. The way they think about copyrights or the lack of care towards it is frankly quite an alien mindset to me. The question is what happens when companies need a massive amount of capital into R&D for some advanced hardware that cannot be easily made? Would they still be willing to let others copy their design and make their products open source?

How do you sustain expensive R&D efforts?
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Either the government does it for proprietary products, or, quite frankly, nobody does. China doesn't have that problem because China is doing extremely well for itself by stepping up to a position a bit behind the cutting edge of research and development.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7430
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by Zaune »

Cutting-edge hardware doesn't stay cutting-edge for long anyway; sooner or later someone either comes up with something comparable independently or reverse-engineers it well enough to circumvent your patent protection. If you even bother obtaining it, because either the process is so long and arduous that the tech will be half-way obsolete by the time the examiners get back to you with a final decision, or so 'streamlined' that they'll rubber-stamp damn near anything put in front of them and you could file a patent so vague and broad that you could sue damn near anyone over it. (You would be unpleasantly surprised how many people make a living doing that very thing.)

And for commercial electronics, open standards and interoperability ultimately benefit everyone anyway: Imagine if every consumer electronics company in the world had to pay JVC a license fee before they could make VCRs, or pay Apple a license fee before they could make anything with a USB port. Vendor lock-in is not a selling point.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by mr friendly guy »

1. Video isn't loading for me, but then I am browsing during my lunch break. :D

2. I did see video(s) on Shenzhen (might be the same one for all I know) and the name of the game is speed. If you get your product out there before clones can appear you can corner the market. By the time they start appearing you would have moved on to the next big thing. This would only work in such an environment where you can go from design to testing very quickly. Foreign companies deal with Shenzhen because of how quickly the supply chain can get your prototype built.

From what I remember, the type of "open source" environment has been going on for some time in Shenzhen, so clearly it works for them.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by K. A. Pital »

I used to live in that town.

I like it. I also deeply hate copyright.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by mr friendly guy »

Going back to what I was saying with innovation to beat copycats, one of the prime examples is the Shenzhen company DJI.
http://www.droneflyers.com/dji-dominate ... -robotics/

DJI dominates the north american civilian drone market. Here is an excerpt from the above article.
2015 – Competition and Clones

Eyeing the success of DJI, a number of companies attempted to enter the field and grab a slice of the consumer camera drone market. Dozens of startup sprung up within a few miles of DJI in Shenzhen, many trying to copy or “clone” the Phantom. Various models were produced at prices as low as $250, but most were copies of the earlier Phantom 1 – a drone whose time had passed. The clones also lacked worldwide support and often were unreliable. None of these companies gained any measurable market share.

An American company called 3D Robotics raised over 100 million in venture capital and claimed they were going to be the first true competitors to DJI. Their new model, dubbed Solo, was originally slated to be released at the end of 2014 but was delayed until July, 2015 at which time it was released unfinished – with no camera gimbal and many bugs in programming. Alas, it proved to be too little and too late (see this article) due to both its shortcomings and DJI’s April Release of the Phantom 3.

The Phantom 3 may have looked similar to previous Phantom models but once the machine was flown by hobbyists, experts and the press it became evident that this was a revolution in both capabilities and price. Most all of the features of the ($3,000) Inspire model were crammed into the Phantom 3 – at a price starting at $999. Improvements in the camera, the app, wind resistance, range, speed and most every other aspect of the drone were evident. In fact, as this article is written – 18 months later – no other company has released a model which betters the price/performance of the Phantom 3 line.
The phantom 1 drone was released in 2013. If this article is correct, 2 years later DJI was already making great improvements while the copycats were still cloning DJI's first drone aimed at the civilian market.

I have a feeling this might be the way to go in the future, at least in Shenzhen.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Zwinmar
Jedi Master
Posts: 1085
Joined: 2005-03-24 11:55am
Location: nunyadamnbusiness

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by Zwinmar »

Originally copyrights and patents were not intended to last forever. By having an expiration date they actually force people to innovate or get left behind.
User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Master
Posts: 1034
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by Khaat »

Actually, the purpose of IP rights is "exclusive exploitation for a time", which has usually, historically, been around 20 years. This also only functions in civil exchange, so piracy, espionage, etc, tend to ignore it. One could argue this exclusive right forces others to innovate, as they can't use your solution to the problem without paying you (buying one of yours, licensing the rights to make a copy, or facing civil monetary damages).
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by K. A. Pital »

It does not force others to "innovate", what is forces them to is to use a suboptimal solution if you already found and copyrighted an optimal solution. As many industrial design issues are often a matter of simple physics and ergonomics, there can be just one optimal solution to a given industrial design problem.

By forcing others not to use it, you create excess, redundancy, waste and spread sub-optimality at the same time. Like with different protocols or proprietary connectors. Most of this bullshit is long gone, and for good reason.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Master
Posts: 1034
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by Khaat »

K. A. Pital wrote:It does not force others to "innovate", what is forces them to is to use a suboptimal solution if you already found and copyrighted an optimal solution. As many industrial design issues are often a matter of simple physics and ergonomics, there can be just one optimal solution to a given industrial design problem.

By forcing others not to use it, you create excess, redundancy, waste and spread sub-optimality at the same time. Like with different protocols or proprietary connectors. Most of this bullshit is long gone, and for good reason.
A specific solution for a specific problem (required for a patent) is never an "optimal solution" to someone else's problem. And they may be able to license your solution from you and use it (or pirate it, if their nation will shield them from patent prosecution), if they have your problem.

OSHA (in the US), for example, doesn't patent health and safety practices (ergonomics) and manufacturers can only copyright their custom procedures handbook, not the actual procedure handed down. Just like map-makers can copyright their work product, even though the world (the full-sized 1:1 "map") is in common use.

And I think (I could be wrong) you've been misled by misunderstandings of patents in general: you can't patent water, because it's in common use. You also can't patent the term "pressure", because it is in common use. You can't patent "ruby" because it's in common use. But you could patent "a devised method for shooting water through a specific ruby head at high pressure to cut (specific things)". But that's a process, not each and every (general) component. And do you really think there's only one (very specific) "optimal" way to use or make high-pressure water-cutters with ruby nozzles? The US Patent Office disagrees.

Also, please explain if the "one true solution" is "universally optimal", why the folks who developed it don't deserve exclusive exploitation rights for a limited time? Patents are not perpetual (unless a matter of national security, in which case the inventor gets screwed on their "exploitation rights", and the answer is buried in a warehouse next to the Ark of the Covenant*.)

It seems you are arguing against laborers (inventors) benefiting from the fruit of their (intellectual) labor. If your argument is "everyone should benefit" that's fine, but we aren't there as a race. Maybe we should feed everyone, first?

*Used for illustrative purposes only, not literally.
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by K. A. Pital »

I am not sure that anyone deserves exclusive rights to anything. For a limited time - perhaps, but even this has to be carefully evaluated in terms of consequences!

What I meant was that by patenting a certain solution, you can force (or try to force) others to use suboptimal solutions. This is not just my opinion, it is supported by historical facts.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_b ... patent_war
Patent war over the aileron (common-sense device that planes need to fly more safely)

http://science.sciencemag.org/lookup/co ... 0/5364/698
A more recent example from the biotech, well, patenting debacle

I hope that you have understood my argument.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Biotech is a debacle because it's an entirely new category of innovation where you can take a naturally occurring thing, use it in a way that is innovative only because you're putting it in a different place in a different organism. Existing patent law isn't designed for that particular case, creating a mess.

On issues like mechanical design and specific industrial processes it works tolerably well. Not great necessarily, and snarls happen, but snarls happen under almost any conceivable system.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Computers are likewise a new sector of production. The patenting of proprietary connectors, battery designs, etc. are creating enough of a headache right now as it is. I do not see a reason to enforce patent protection beyond common sense.

Do we need more patent thickets in the industry?

One could argue that the ability to avoid patent thickets due to lax IP protection largely contributed to the rise and well-being of the industrialized East and South East Asia. This is the well-being of billions of humans. It is often said that nowadays even all the poor people have a nice mobile (smart)phone, but what is often overlooked is that they are usually cheap Chinese knockoffs designed and sold with disregard for large companies' patents and other IP. So this lax enforcement is largely beneficial to the poorest, it seems.

Patent thickets only contribute to the well-being of a select few. Even if we take the First World as a whole, it is but a small fraction of the world's population.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Shenzhen- A world without strong IP laws?

Post by madd0ct0r »

Counterpoint. We live in a world with rampant piracy and cloning already. CInnovationopyright is enforced by large companies when it profits them, and ignored for the same reason. An all American example would be home buy and the saga of the better six point wrench. But innovation has not stalled. It has accelerated.

But then most cutting edge research is carried out by the military in the usa's semi-planned economy, and the rest by universities and software start-ups where first mover wins. There are still some places wereh the sixties notion of corporation conducting research on the basis of future licensing fees is true but I'd wager its a negligible part of the effort, or is tied to insurance dominated industries like aerospace or construction
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
Post Reply