Attack in Nice, France

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well dietary restrictions aren't really a fundamental part of Judaism and non-drinking of alcohol isn't really a fundamental part of Baptist-ism. The five pillars are the fundamental part of Islam. You could say that a Muslim who doesn't attempt to follow the five pillars is more like a Baptist who baptises babies or a trinitarian Jew.

Messianic Jews, for example, may consider themselves Jews, but I think it is perfectly legitimate to say they are christains and you can't be both.

And there are Christians that don't follow the 10 Commandments. Engaging in strict dogmatism in assigning people to whatever you think their correct religion should be is a pointless waste of time. Religions are not homogenous; there are sects of religions with mutually exclusive tenets. If he believed himself to be a Muslim, and acted in the name of Islam, what does it matter if he was No True Scotsman (TM)?

[loomer]

Well his he doesn't observe Ramadan, is islam really "his religion"? Are you a Muslim if you don't attempt to adhere to the five pillars of Islam?

Same way a Jew who eats bacon is still a Jew. Same way a Southern Baptist who drinks a six-pack of beer on the weekend is still a Baptist. It's as much a cultural thing as it is a faith thing. If you pinned them down and asked them directly, they might have to confess that they aren't very good Jews, Baptists, or in this guy's case Muslim, but they would still consider themselves to be part of that group.

Well dietary restrictions aren't really a fundamental part of Judaism and non-drinking of alcohol isn't really a fundamental part of Baptist-ism. The five pillars are the fundamental part of Islam. You could say that a Muslim who doesn't attempt to follow the five pillars is more like a Baptist who baptises babies or a trinitarian Jew.

Messianic Jews, for example, may consider themselves Jews, but I think it is perfectly legitimate to say they are christains and you can't be both.

I'm pretty sure keeping kosher is in fact 'a fundamental part of Judaism'. Half of the kashrut are literally in the Torah, and they very likely emerged as the marker of judaism compared to the neighbouring peoples. It's a facet of judaism that has remained relatively constant for some thousands of years.

[Ralin]

If he believed himself to be a Muslim, and acted in the name of Islam, what does it matter if he was No True Scotsman (TM)?

Because while there may be a lot of gray areas there has to be some generally agreed upon definition, otherwise the word "Muslim" stops meaning anything. I could declare myself a Christian who thinks that God isn't real and that Jesus was a stupid hippy who got what he had coming to him but I don't think people would take me very seriously, and rightly so.

[Broomstick]

I'm pretty sure keeping kosher is in fact 'a fundamental part of Judaism'. Half of the kashrut are literally in the Torah, and they very likely emerged as the marker of judaism compared to the neighbouring peoples. It's a facet of judaism that has remained relatively constant for some thousands of years.

Well, yeah, except quite a few Reform Jews either observe a greatly modified form of kashrut or even none at all

I think the one central feature that is closest to universal in Judaism is male circumcision. It's certainly a defining feature to the Jews, and noticed by their neighbors everywhere but the US where for far too long just about everybody circumcised the boys.

Keeping kosher is a close second, but there most certainly are Jews that have no intention of keeping kosher, and quite a few others who are very sloppy about it. My father, who grew up in an Orthodox household, got to be well known in his early teens for sneaking off to local diners and delis for a ham-on-swiss sandwich, which remained his favorite throughout life. I have another relative on that side with a weakness for sausage made from pork liver - absolutely kosher in everything else except that. Plenty of Jews have sampled bacon or shrimp. They're human, and they don't always follow the rules.

[loomer]

Sure, but aren't Reformist Jews a relative minority of the Jewish population? Orthodox, Conservative, and most definitely Hasidic and other Haredi Jews all keep kashrut, or at least hold it as a major article of faith.

Not only is there that, but it's entirely possible for something to be a fundamental part of a religion while adherents don't adhere to it with absolute obedience and consistency (just as with ideology generally, for that matter). It makes them human - but it doesn't make the stricture they ignore or misinterpret any less a part of their religion. More than one devout Christian has lied or stolen or committed adultery, more than one devout Muslim has failed to observe ramadan, and more than one devout Jew has eaten pork or cut their peyot or walked into temple with their head uncovered. A failure by even relatively devout observers of a faith to adhere at all times to a piece of doctrine isn't proof that doctrine isn't a part of the religion.

[Elheru Aran]

The main thing about religion is that generally even with the most lackadaisical followers, there remains a core tenet that they won't budge on, that they subscribe to, which is inherent to the very definition of their faith.

For Jews, circumision is a big part of that core tenet; keeping kosher is a little less important, but it's still a big part of their culture.

For Christians... hoo boy... the main thing they'll agree on is that Jesus is the Savior and you have to believe in ('accept') him to be saved.

For Muslims: "Allah is the only God, and Mohammed is His Prophet". The Five Pillars all have their exceptions. You're still considered a Muslim, just a bad one, if you've recited the Shahada, knew what you were doing, and meant it.

[Broomstick]

Sure, but aren't Reformist Jews a relative minority of the Jewish population? Orthodox, Conservative, and most definitely Hasidic and other Haredi Jews all keep kashrut, or at least hold it as a major article of faith.

In the US they're about 1/3 of Jews that bother to identify with a denomination, Conservative are about 1/5, Orthodox 1/10 so in the US they're a sizable group.

In other places, of course, the percentages vary.

A failure by even relatively devout observers of a faith to adhere at all times to a piece of doctrine isn't proof that doctrine isn't a part of the religion.

And that is also true.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Religions are sets of beliefs. In order to be part of that religion you have to believe certain fundamental things, while others (including the actions attached to them) are somewhat more fungible.

Christianity: You must believe in the Nicene Creed. Everything else is fungible.

Judaism: You must believe that a covenant exists between god and your people, the jews, such that if you keep faith (which can mean different things to different groups of Jews, and of course with 4 jews in the room, you get five opinions) with him the jewish people will always exist and one day a messiah will come and put an end to all pain, suffering, and death. Everything else is fungible. It is of course possible to be a practicing orthodox jew without actually believing any of this, because Jewry is cultural as much as Judaism is a religion.

Islam: There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his profit and you must submit to the will of Allah. In your submission to Allah you really should follow the five pillars of Islam (which is a really really simple ruleset). Islam is, even to a greater extent than Judaism is, an orthoprax religion and centers largely around correct practice. The ritual prayers are as much a core part of Islam as believing in Jesus is to christianity.

Also, I am going to politely encourage everyone to get back on track.