Meanwhile, in Syria

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Flagg
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

Post by Flagg »

bobalot wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote:Obama is a bit of a wuss regarding Syria.
Obama is now what is known as a "lame duck" president - if you think he's done too little up until now expect nothing more from now to the end of his term. The last few months of a 2nd term PotUS gets little done.
I wonder what all the armchair warriors like comicalstorm have as an alternate course of action?
"Kill Arabs."
"USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!"
"This is all Obama's fault and not totally foreseeable fallout from the Bush Administrations Illegal War of Aggression in Iraq!"

So, the usual: Nothing.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Broomstick wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote:Obama is a bit of a wuss regarding Syria.
Obama is now what is known as a "lame duck" president - if you think he's done too little up until now expect nothing more from now to the end of his term. The last few months of a 2nd term PotUS gets little done.
I think I understand him, he does not want to get pulled into some bad mess.

The whole mess of Iraq was started and proudly carried on by Republican Bushes. I guess Clinton/Blair shares some of the blame.

Obama can more clearly be blamed for bringing down Gadaffi and trying to topple Assad, that was also retarded in retrospect.

Though I sometimes wonder if there is some way to act nicely in the Middle East, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

Post by K. A. Pital »

The retarded policy of encouraging Turkey and Saudi Arabia to act more aggressively and fund islamist militants to topple regimes for their political gains in the ME area is certainly a "damned if you do" thing. "Damned if you don't"? Who "damned" the US before it invaded Iraq? Or messed with Libya?

Non-interference in civil wars is not even something that requires special justification. Although great powers and those that think they're on the path to "greatness" do like to intervene a lot.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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I was referring to the blame American presidents get for "doing nothing" mostly. That course of action described by you would have been nice.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

Post by cosmicalstorm »

This might be the endgame for the rebels. Supply routes are being cut and suppliers are holding back on goodies for the rebels now that they cant go on the offensive.
They lose unless Turkey or Saudi decide to escalate and send in ground troops, but that seems unlikely.

Middle East - Washington Post
Syrian rebels are losing Aleppo and perhaps also the war

By Liz Sly and Zakaria Zakaria February 4

GAZIANTEP, Turkey — Syrian rebels battled for their survival in and around Syria’s northern city of Aleppo on Thursday after a blitz of Russian airstrikes helped government loyalists sever a vital supply route and sent a new surge of refugees fleeing toward the border with Turkey.

The Russian-backed onslaught against rebel positions in Aleppo coincided with the failure of peace talks in Geneva, and helped reinforce opposition suspicions that Russia and its Syrian government allies are more interested in securing a military victory over the rebels than negotiating a settlement.

After two days of what rebel fighters described as the most intense airstrikes yet, government forces had succeeded on Wednesday in cutting off the rebels’ main supply route from the Turkish border to the portion of Aleppo city that remains under opposition control. On Thursday, the government captured several more villages in the surrounding countryside, prompting fears among residents and rebels that the city could soon be entirely surrounded.

The loss of Aleppo, Syria’s largest city and the most significant urban center to fall, at least partially, under rebel control, would represent a potentially decisive blow to the nearly five-year-old rebellion against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. The rebels have maintained control of much of Aleppo since they surged into the city in 2012, prompting U.S. intelligence assessments that they eventually would topple the government in Damascus..... Continued in link below
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mi ... story.html

Erdogan can go fuck himself, I'm glad to note that he is infuriated. Lets hope the Kurds get some positive momentum out of the current mess.
Agence France Presse

Middle East
Feb. 07, 2016 | 02:25 PM
Erdogan calls on US to choose between Turkey or Syrian Kurds

ISTANBUL: Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan expressed anger over a U.S. official's visit to a Kurdish militia group controlling the Syrian town of Kobane, urging Washington to choose between Turkey and the "terrorists" there.

A delegation including senior U.S. diplomat Brett McGurk, special envoy to an international coalition fighting ISIS in Syria and Iraq, last week met members of the Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG), a powerful militia that is in control of Kobane.

The meetings come after the YPG's political wing, the Democratic Union Party (PYD), was excluded from new peace talks in Geneva being organised by the UN. Ankara had threatened to boycott the talks if PYD was invited.

"He visits Kobane at the time of the Geneva talks and is awarded a plaque by a so-called YPG general?" Erdogan told reporters on his plane returning from a trip to Latin America and to Senegal.

"How can we trust [you]?" Erdogan said.

"Is it me who is your partner or the terrorists in Kobane?"

His comments were carried by Turkish media Sunday.

Ankara considers the PYD and YPG to be affiliates of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which has waged an armed insurgency in Turkey, while Syria's opposition accuses them of being too close to the regime in Damascus.

But the coalition has worked closely with the YPG since it launched airstrikes in Syria in September 2014, expanding a campaign that began in Iraq a month earlier.

"Do you accept the PKK as a terrorist organisation? Then why don't you list the PYD and the YPG as a terrorist organisations, too?" Erdogan asked on the plane.

Kurdish forces backed by coalition airstrikes ousted ISIS fighters from Kobane after a months-long struggle in January last year.

Turkey fears the creation of an autonomous Kurdish region in Syria -- similar to the Kurdish region in northern Iraq -- would spur the separatist ambitions of Turkey's own Kurds.

The PKK is blacklisted as a terrorist organisation by Turkey and much of the international community.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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cosmicalstorm wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Obama is now what is known as a "lame duck" president - if you think he's done too little up until now expect nothing more from now to the end of his term. The last few months of a 2nd term PotUS gets little done.
I think I understand him, he does not want to get pulled into some bad mess.
No, you do not understand.

A political lame duck is near the end of their term of office and will not be returning. There ability to wheel and deal and get their way is sharply limited due to the inability to make political promises. It's not that he lacks the desire to act, he lacks the political capital to act outside of some very narrow areas, none of which apply to foreign policy that would affect anything in the Middle East.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

Post by Ralin »

Broomstick wrote:A political lame duck is near the end of their term of office and will not be returning. There ability to wheel and deal and get their way is sharply limited due to the inability to make political promises. It's not that he lacks the desire to act, he lacks the political capital to act outside of some very narrow areas, none of which apply to foreign policy that would affect anything in the Middle East.
Other than the nucular option of sending troops in while he's still Commander-in-Chief.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I know presidents do that on the last year but Obama was reluctant way back in 2013 with the red line bit. Not saying that another " invasion of the x'th Muslim land" would have made much sense but it opened the door for other actors.


© Oil-price.net. All rights reserved.

 

Four decades of trade agreements with the gulf states prompt their spiritual mentorship to be questioned in the wake of the Paris attacks.


Syrian war, oil prices and the Paris attacks 
By STEVE AUSTIN for OIL-PRICE.NET, 2015/12/02

In our last article we predicted that thousands of hardened ISIS fighters, blending among refugees, would march into Europe undetected. We also advised our readers that this would spread distrust between European powers and borders would go back up in an attempt to stem the invasion, at the cost of slowing down European economies. We were right on all counts.

On November 13th 2015, ISIS terrorists committed multiple suicide attacks in Paris, which formed the deadliest terrorist atrocity on French soil since WW2. They caused France to close borders and declare a state of emergency.

There is a strange connection between these tragic events and the politics of petroleum. On the one hand, Saudi-funded fundamentalism has, within a few decades, balkanized Europe into a net supplier of jihadi fighters. On the other hand, a proxy war in Syria over a gas pipeline created the refugee crisis. These are both dire issues which few governments dare to face effectively, yet these issues will shape our world for centuries to come.

France's Terrorist Hotbeds

As of November 2015 both the French and German governments estimate that between 5,000 and 6,000 Western Europeans jihadis have joined the ranks of ISIS in Syria. Of these, almost half came from France and are mostly second or third-generation immigrants of Algerian descent. This makes France the largest supplier of Western jihadis. According to France's DGSE secret service 250 have returned so far, some giving TV and radio interviews about their experiences in ISIS. This media blitz occurs while they await mild prison sentences and still collect welfare benefits. Meanwhile, more than 300 candidates are considering joining ISIS and this figure is climbing.

Although this "Salafist" radicalization is sometimes abusively portrayed as recent, it is a multi-generational trend spanning nearly four decades and is a consequence of the European powers' oil policies.

Most European countries have no oil reserves. Shortly after the 1973 oil crisis they attempted to tie long-term partnerships with the Gulf States. As a result, oil from Saudi Arabia and Qatar still flows reliably into Europe in exchange for currency, weapons technology, and a few Saudi-funded mosques. For example, around that time Belgium signed a 99-year lease with Saudi Arabia to build the Great Mosque of Brussels, just a short distance from the Molenbeek suburbs, today considered Europe's most volatile terror hotbed. In Spain, Madrid is home to the largest Mosque in Europe, also built by Saudi Arabia. Saudi-trained conservative imams took the helms of these mosques and indoctrinated generations of followers with wahhabi and salafist rhetoric. They called on the Muslims of Europe to split away from the native European society they deem incompatible and seize power. Hence political Islam had set foot in Europe.

Despite protests and warnings from conservatives, leftist European politicians not only tolerated this rhetoric, they even embraced it. They interpret it as a sort of "class struggle" in phase with their own ideology. As years went by and the Muslim population increased, Europe's socialist parties began to court the Islamic vote more assiduously under the guise of multiculturalism and tolerance. It paid off for some leftist parties who got elected repeatedly, buying votes at the cost of massive low-cost housing projects and welfare benefits targeted preferentially towards citizens of foreign descent.

Unfortunately, these policies created immense low-cost housing neighborhoods, which soon tuned into a state within a state, following the salafist rethoric of self-segregation. Today some of these no-go zones are Islamist enclaves operating under near-Shariah law with no police presence. They are disconnected from the rest of France's society, but nonetheless welcome free housing and medical services, utilities and generous welfare benefits in exchange for votes. The pattern is similar in Belgium, Holland, the United Kingdom, Sweden, and Germany. Why change something that works?

The perpetrators of the Paris terror attacks were all raised and radicalized in France and Belgium. However, France's socialist President Hollande was quick to point the finger elsewhere at ISIS and Syria, drawing the media's attention away from his government's accountability. This allowed Hollande to bolster state expenditure and deficits despite EU budget rules, while pledging to welcome 30,000 new Syrian refugees - new voters for the 2017 elections paid for by taxpayers. In reality, France's home-grown terrorism problem is the result of decades of complacency by Hollande's own party towards Saudi-funded political Islam - an unreasonable price for crude oil and weapons export.

France's commercial and cultural exchanges with Saudi Arabia are supervised by a dedicated workgroup within the French government (Groupe d'amitie France-Arabie Saoudite) headed by politician Olivier Dassault, heir to aerospace conglomerate Dassault Defense Systems. In July 2015, France signed a record $12 billion contract with Saudi Arabia to sell helicopters, build two nuclear reactors and export advanced weapons systems to the Kingdom - though any "cultural" part in the agreement flowing back from the Kingdom was not disclosed to the public. Given the Kingdom's recent offer to build 200 new mosques for Syrian refugees in Germany, the $12 billion cheque to France most certainly came with strings attached, the consequences of which the average Joe - or Pierre as it may be - will endure. From the looks of it, the hands of France's ruling class are tied and it is unlikely they will stand up to Saudi Arabia.

Police raids following the attacks uncovered heavy weaponry in known hotbeds, a tell-tale sign that regular law enforcement cannot keep track of terrorist activities in normal times. The Paris attacks went undetected by the DGSE secret services simply because the number of aspiring jihadis has reached a critical mass which now exceeds the service's capacity. It takes on average 20 agents to monitor a suspected terrorist, more if he is aware of being monitored. The 5,000-strong DGSE has repeatedly warned that it cannot effectively monitor homegrown jihadis because of their sheer numbers. Unfortunately, going forward, Paris-style attacks are the new normal.

Syria's Civil War

As we explained in our last article, the Syrian Civil War stems from a disagreement between the Saudis and Russia over the route for a new gas pipeline ducting Gulf gas to the lucrative European markets. Russia, whose only Mediterranean base is located in Tartus, Syria, supports Assad's initiative of a gas pipeline from Iran through Iraq and Syria (the Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline). But Saudi Arabia's hardline Sunni Muslims wants to overthrow Syria's Assad, who is a Shia Muslim, for religious reasons. They want to run a 100 per cent Sunni-controlled pipeline from Qatar through Syria and Turkey (the Qatar-Turkey pipeline), into Europe. As a result of this disagreement a proxy war is taking place in Syria between the aforementioned powers. Meanwhile displaced Syrian refugees are flooding into Europe with jihadis in their midst.


Originally, Europeans were strongly in favor of deposing Assad for so-called "humanitarian reasons". Their humanitarian concerns for Assad's repressive regime veil the truth - Europe resents depending on Russia for 40 per cent of its gas. Russian President Putin annexed Crimea and maintained a belligerent stance, pushing Europe to favor the pipeline proposal of Qatar and Saudi Arabia. The Saudi plan to duct natural gas all the way to Europe through Syria and Turkey came with a catch - Assad would have to be toppled. The US supported the initiative as Russia's only Mediterranean naval base would disappear with Assad. Thus, the Western world had itself a new plan that would bring peace and prosperity to the region. That is after the "initial shakeout" necessary to oust Assad.

The "initial shakeout" didn't go as planned. Russia-backed Assad proved far more resilient than anticipated. But more importantly, western-backed Islamic militias committed such barbaric acts of terror they even made Assad, and Russia, look good in comparison. An emboldened ISIS gradually took over several of the region's oil fields to fund its operations to the tune of $50 million per month by smuggling oil into Turkey. The routes and means were well established during the previous oil embargo on Iraq and so are the financial networks that profit from it in Turkey. Today, crude oil illegally smuggled by ISIS into Turkey accounts for a fairly significant 3.5 per cent of Turkey's total oil imports. Turkey's NATO allies are starting to question her true allegiance and motivation to fight ISIS, as does Turkey's downing of a Russian jet while it was tracking an oil convoy headed for Turkey. Turkey's allegiance has become so questionable that Texas governor Rick Perry suggested that Turkey be dismissed from NATO.

Turkish Delight

Syria's history particularly draws Turkey's attention. For centuries most of the Middle East, including the area now known as Syria, was part of the Ottoman Empire. That Empire was ruled from the Turkish city of Istanbul by a dynasty of autocratic Sultans, called the Ottoman family. As well as ruling over most of the Middle East, the Sultan held the hereditary position of Caliph. This was the leadership of all the Sunni Muslims in the world - a Muslim Pope.

The Ottoman Empire was an ally of the German Empire during the First World War. When they lost that war, the British and French governments took their revenge by splitting off all of the empire's provinces and creating colonies for themselves. Those colonies evolved into independent countries and today they are Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia. The rump of the empire was left independent and in turmoil. In 1922 the army overthrew the Ottoman sultan and declared a republic, changing the Empire's name to Turkey.

The leaders of ISIS want to form their own homeland by uniting Iraq, Syria and the Lebanon into one country. They will then spread out over all the former territories of the Ottoman Empire to recreate it. They also want to recreate the Caliphate. Although their aims are an homage to the Ottomans, they don't intend to invite the family back. They like the romantic notion of days gone by, specifically because those enchanting eras give glamour to dictatorship and repression. ISIS wants to wind back to the good old days when whoever was in charge could have anyone they wanted whipped or killed without the meddling of politics, courts, rights or democracy. They want the luxury of autocracy for themselves, not for some hapless descendant of the last Sultan.

All of this plays well for Turkey. ISIS admires their northern neighbors and they don't include that country in their plans. The ISIS vision of an empire is the Ottoman Empire, without Turkey.

Trade Not Aid

Although the Turks are members of NATO and allies of the United States, they have their own agenda, which often flies contrary to the policies of America. For one thing, they have a troublesome separatist movement in the Kurds.

Kurdistan has never been an independent country and today it covers an area of Western Iran, Northern Iraq and Syria, and about a third of Turkey's territory. The overriding obsession of every Turkish government is to prevent the loss of that area which would occur with the creation of Kurdistan. Rather than give the Kurds concessions and try to befriend them, the Turks choose to repress, imprison and cull the Kurds by any means possible.

America, France and Britain love the Kurds. One of the justifications for toppling Sadam Hussein in Iraq was his mass murder of the Kurds through gassing. The Kurds fought fiercely alongside the Western armies and the allies rewarded them by giving them total autonomy in their homeland in Northern Iraq, right along the border with Turkey which hosts significant crude oil and natural gas proven reserves in Iraq. This infuriated the Turkish government, as an oil-rich Kurdistan could rise militarily and stand up to Turkey.

US trained and armed Kurds are the only force that has had any luck in defeating ISIS in Northern Syria. The Kurds held two area of borderland and were successfully driving ISIS back into the interior of the country. ISIS had one stretch of the border area with Turkey and used that as a checkpoint to trade with their much-admired neighbor.

ISIS's early successes in Northern Iraq saw them seize oil fields and refineries. Rather than destroy these monuments to Western occupation, they took over them and cranked up production. However, as they are designated as a terrorist organization, they don't have access to oil trading markets to sell their black gold. So, who on earth would buy oil from terrorists? Turkey.

The befriending of ISIS has worked very well for Turkey. They get a cheap source of oil, pouring $50 million a month into ISIS's coffers. On top of that, they know that one of the main ways their terrorist friends will use that money is to buy back weaponry to kill as many Kurdish independence fighters as possible.

Things were going great for Turkey, until the American-backed and armed Kurds started to gear up for their final push to squeeze ISIS out of the border area, thus uniting Kurdish control of the entire southern border of Turkey. The Turkish government declared that it had enough of the terrible atrocities occurring in Syria. They joined the war in the name of freedom, and bombed the Kurds to smithereens. This helped ISIS regain control of Northern Syria, and kept the cheap oil flowing to Turkey. America did nothing.

Brothers in Arms

Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the two biggest Sunni countries in the Middle East. Turkey lies to the north of the region, and Saudi Arabia lies to the south, deep in the Arabian Peninsula. Industrialized Turkey produces weapons while Saudi Arabia buys technology and arms from the West and both are smuggling some of those weapons to various Syrian rebel groups, including Al-Qaeda affiliates and unofficially ISIS. However, the economies of the two countries are very different.

As a non-oil producing industrialized nation depending on Russia for 60% of its gas imports, Turkey's economy is strengthened by falling oil price, and having a plentiful supply of under-priced contraband oil on its southern border is just making life a lot easier for the people of Turkey. Saudi Arabia doesn't have a value-added economy but rely on oil production. Thefall in oil prices, which are now approaching $40 per barrel due to Saudi non-respect of OPEC quotas, doesn't bode well for the Kingdom's finances.

Historically Saudi Arabia was formed by a desert prince, who allied himself with religious fundamentalist warriors, the wahhabis, and took over the peninsula. This formed the Kingdom named after that prince.

However, there was a price to pay for this alliance and Saud had to enforce a strict religious code, lest the wahhabis turned on him. Saud had to remain pious, lest the Wahabis turned on him. That "pious" religious code means banning music, repressing women, strict observance of the hours of prayer, and lots and lots of public beheadings. King Saud lived to a ripe old age and since his death, the rule of the Kingdom has passed sideways along the family tree of Saud's sons. The present king of Saudi Arabia is a son of the first monarch.

Since then Saudi rulers have mostly remained pious - with the exception of a some of the 15,000 Saudi princes and their tabloid-worthy lifestyles once abroad - in appearance at least. While at home, royals have used oil revenue to pacify their restless subjects with lavish spending. The most aggressive subjects are "encouraged" to go see the world rather than upset the status-quo within the Kingdom. It is no coincidence that Osama Bin Laden, a Saudi, had to take his revolution to Afghanistan and today, scores of Saudi youths follow in his footsteps by joining ISIS.

But, building Mosques and filling planes with fighters for Allah costs money. Although Saudi oil costs as little as $10 per barrel to pull out of the ground, the government needs a breakeven price of $95 per barrel in order to keep funding trouble abroad while keeping peace at home. Given today's low oil prices, Saudi Arabia is spending $10 billion a month of its savings to keep the country afloat. According to the IMF, it will take 5 years of their current levels of deficit to send the country bankrupt.

Slippery Slope

Five years of deficit funding seems manageable. Five years is a long time, anything can happen. However, five years may be a generous estimate. Countries find financing gets harder when they get down towards the bottom of the cookie jar. Without large reserves, international lenders get jumpy and interest rates rise sharply. The country will start to face inflation and the government policy of subsidizing the prices of essential goods will become even more expensive, thus escalating the depletion of reserves. It may only take three years to drive the Kingdom bankrupt if the government doesn't reign in their spending and a costly ongoing war with Yemen doesn't help.

If the Saudi Arabian government takes the necessary action to cut their budget and reduce the annual deficit, they may not last five years: cutting military spending against Yemen, heavily armed by Iran, is not an option. Cutting entitlements used to pacify ultra-conservative wahhabis would be suicidal. So transitioning Saudi Arabia into more of a value-added, sustainable economy seems the best option, however this meets cultural opposition.

As of 2015, a mere 4 per cent of Saudis work in the private sector. As a whole, the Saudi private sector is 87 per cent staffed by foreigner workers. Since the oil price crashed, the Saudi government has attempted to force the private sector to hire more Saudi nationals to reduce the state cost of unemployment. But as one CEO puts it: it is "a serious battle trying to get those that they hire to actually do anything". Working for a living is simply not culturally accepted in the Islamic state. This cultural attitude explains why astonishingly, Saudi Arabia is a net importer of gasoline: it imports 25 per cent of its gas and 20 per cent of its diesel. In other words Saudis produce oil easily (by inviting in foreign companies with their own highly trained staff) but they don't "add value" by refining it. Refining crude oil may seem like such a low-hanging fruit for us westerners, yet the effort involved puts is out of reach of Saudis.

To make things worse, the army of the Kingdom is mired in an unwinnable war in the country's southern neighbor, Yemen. Granted, the Saudi army is one of the best equipped in the world. The government's back-scratching with Western powers resulted in the Saudis buying an enormous amount of weaponry to keep the GDP of their allies buoyant. However this stands in contrast with the effectiveness of its service members. Commanders traditionally hold their positions because they are Saudi Royals, not necessarily because they are competent in military matters. On the ground, as many members of the western military who part-took in joint training with the Saudi armed forces have anecdotally reported, Saudi discipline is mediocre, to put it mildly. And as everyone knows, the plural of anecdote is data. Should ISIS head south and Iran-backed Yemen head north, most Saudi soldiers may simply run for the hills.

My Enemy's Enemy

The Saudi obsession with getting at Syria has drawn the attention of Western media to the Kingdom's private funding of terrorists and lost it friends. By contrast, Iran seems more reasonable and easier to deal with. The standoff between the US and Russia, picking sides in the Syrian conflict is melting away, as the US and its allies abandon Saudi Arabia and realize that shoring up President Assad is preferable to absorbing millions of Muslims in Europe.

Moreover, Europe needs a new source of gas to prevent Vladimir Putin throttling the newly liberated countries of Eastern Europe through his gas blackmail policy. However, through all of the planning and lobbying for permission to build one or other pipeline through Syria, there is one obvious outcome that everyone seems to have overlooked. Why not build both and let them compete?

The Sunni/Shia religious war presages further blackmail down the line. If only the Sunni pipeline gets built, the Sunni Muslim governments of the Middle East will be able to blackmail Europe to do its bidding by turning off supplies. If only the Shia pipeline gets built, Iran can blackmail Europe, in fact you can bet that Vladimir Putin has already organized a coordinated "pricing" strategy with the Iranians.

It is in Europe's interests to have three piped gas suppliers - Russia, Qatar, and Iran. That way, no single force can manipulate Europe's energy needs for political gain. Although Russia and Iran might team up, the prospects of the Sunnis in the south forming a cartel with the other two suppliers are slim. The United States has little direct commercial or political interest in any of the possible outcomes of the pipeline projects, aside for pleasing "allies" Saudi Arabia and Turkey. It is just committed to keeping Europe free, and so a powerful Putin incurs military expense for America.

Plan B

The Saudis don't have a Plan B, but Iran does, and it is implementing it now. They are playing their capitulation into a diplomatic triumph and winning friends away from Saudi Arabia. As the West and Russia cease to undermine Syria's efforts to survive, those exported wahhabi insurgents will return home to Saudi Arabia with an axe to grind and a surplus of arms.

The Iranian gas pipeline will be built through Syria. With the trouble in Syria over, the Americans will take less interest in the Kurds. Turkey can go back to quietly stamping on the prospects of an independent Kurdistan, and would probably be willing to see the final leg of the gas pipeline pass through their territory, thus removing the need for an underwater segment and reducing its cost while upping their geostrategic significance.

With Saudi Arabia in turmoil, its ability to project project influence on the world will erode itself. Without its oil output, oil prices will rise again. Without its exported petrodollars, ISIS will melt away. Turkey may grow to become the chief Sunni Muslim nation in the world - a position it held when it was the seat of the Caliphate.

http://www.oil-price.net/en/articles/sy ... ttacks.php
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Ralin wrote:
Broomstick wrote:A political lame duck <snip definition; snip list of what can and cannot be done>
Other than the nucular option of sending troops in while he's still Commander-in-Chief.
Ralin: Nuclear. Somebody was going to say it, I'm just the first one to do so. Also, that would be a remarkably awful precedent to reinforce.

Anyway, the problem with Syria* is that the thing the Western media thinks is happening simply isn't at this point. What secular rebels there were - and I've worked for companies allied to them, as I think I've mentioned before - have essentially disintegrated, so the only thing that's left is the central government vs. the Islamic State. It is possible to argue that more vigorous support of the secular rebels, when there were any, would have prevented this outcome, but realistically revolution always brings out the crazy elements of society. President Obama is not solely to blame for a situation whose proximal cause is Presidents' Bush warmongering, whose secondary cause is the Sykes-Picot Agreement, and whose tertiary cause is the first great Islamic Civil War; the United States is not solely to blame for all the worlds problems.

*One of the many, many problems with Syria.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Considering the fact intelligence documents show the Western powers were willing to tolerate even ISIS to topple Assad, it is highly unlikely any secular rebellion success was ever possible. Funding or no funding, for every penny to a secular movement Saudis and Qatar will give a full dollar to Wahhabite islamists.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Absolutely, and not surprisingly; Qatar and the Saudis are regional powers at best, but it's their region we're discussing - it would be a little odd if they weren't more invested in regional outcomes than the United States.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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cosmicalstorm wrote:I know presidents do that on the last year but Obama was reluctant way back in 2013 with the red line bit. Not saying that another " invasion of the x'th Muslim land" would have made much sense but it opened the door for other actors.
Ok, the point is that if he hasn't shown enthusiasm for invasion up until now don't expect it to happen with him as a lame duck. He doesn't have the political capital to start something like that even if he did want it.

Also - I'm continually in awe of how US involvement and military adventure in the MENA is blamed for the current cesspit, yet people are still suggesting that somehow the US "getting involved" or sending troops or whatever is the answer. Do you know what they call doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? Insanity.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Esquire wrote: Ralin: Nuclear. Somebody was going to say it, I'm just the first one to do so.
Nucular.
Also, that would be a remarkably awful precedent to reinforce.
It's almost like I had a reason for spelling it that way!
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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And what might that reason have been?
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Esquire wrote:And what might that reason have been?
Alluding to the fact that that option is at least as retarded as Shrub the Lesser's decision to invade Iraq, which set off this nonstop cascade of shit hitting the fan. Shrub was famous for pronouncing "nuclear" as "nucular".

It seems like with Russia backing Assad, the situation is finally moving toward the resolution it always required: Someone killing enough of the other guy that they will not be able to do anything other than surrender or die. And in that region surrendering to the other side of hostilities such as these usually means you get killed anyway.

It's going to be the anti-Assad rebels not aligned with ISIS who will be the first to go, hopefully followed by ISIS. That'll be a start, but redrawing the borders to reflect reality rather than century old colonial bullshit and population swaps such as the ones that happened in the Balkans post-WW1 are probably also going to be needed for there to be any kind of normalcy in the region.

With the current crop of clowns who make up the relevant international leadership, I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Oh, right. I somehow managed to block that from my memory. :D I'm mostly with you on the prognosis, though, unfortunately - the one exception is that I think President Assad will wind up head of a caretaker government during internationally-monitored elections as his half of a deal to avoid another revolt in ten years, as well as lifetime immunity from war crimes prosecution.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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The Saudis insist they will invade Syria under the guise of combating IS

https://www.rt.com/news/332230-syria-pe ... saudis-us/
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Russian PM warns US, Saudis against starting ‘permanent war’ with ground intervention in Syria
Published time: 12 Feb, 2016 06:10
Edited time: 12 Feb, 2016 06:12
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Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev © Ekaterina Shtukina
Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev © Ekaterina Shtukina / Sputnik
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Russian PM Dmitry Medvedev told German media that sending foreign troops into Syria could unleash “yet another war on Earth.” The warning follows increasingly aggressive statements made by Saudi Arabia and Turkey amid Bashar Assad’s gains in Aleppo.
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Islamic State, Russian anti-terror op in Syria, Syria unrest

“All sides must be compelled to sit at the negotiating table, instead of unleashing yet another war on Earth,” Medvedev told Germany’s Handelsblatt newspaper. “Any kinds of land operations, as a rule, lead to a permanent war. Look at what’s happened in Afghanistan and a number of other countries. I am not even going to bring up poor Libya.”

The PM was commenting on recent statements from Saudi Arabia claiming that it was ready to send ground troops to Syria, should Washington lead the way.
Read more
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and UN Special Envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura (L-R) arrive for a news conference after the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) meeting in Munich, Germany, February 12, 2016. © Michael Dalder Syria crisis plan: Cessation of hostilities, humanitarian airdrops, peace talks laid out in Munich

“The Americans and our Arab partners must think well: do they want a permanent war? Do they think they can really quickly win it? It is impossible, especially in the Arab world. Everyone is fighting against everyone there,” Medvedev added. The interview was published on the eve of the International Syria Support Group meeting in Munich, where the cessation of hostilities in Syria became a top item on the agenda.

Meanwhile, the situation in Syria has been heating up, as Syrian government troops have been making advances in the northern city of Aleppo, half of which is considered to be under the control of anti-government rebel groups. The same region has also been inundated with terrorist groups, such as Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL), Ahrar al-Sham, and Al-Nusra Front, which are all being targeted by Russian as well as US-led air campaigns.

At the same time, the predominantly Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) have recaptured a former military airbase from jihadists near the Turkish-Syrian border, reportedly with the support of Russian air strikes. The base is located near the rebel-held town of Azaz in Aleppo province.
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Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan © Kayhan Ozer Still BFF? Turkey’s Erdogan attacks US over support of Kurds, blames it for Syrian ‘sea of blood’

Turkey, meanwhile, continues to insist that the Kurdish militia fighting IS are terrorists just as the Kurdish rebels fighting inside Turkey. Ankara, which has been criticized for bombing Kurds inside Syria instead of helping to fight IS, has recently fallen out with Washington over America’s support for the Kurdish YPG.

On the Syrian battlefield, Turkey openly supports anti-Assad rebel groups. The latest statement by Turkish PM Ahmet Davutoglu, who pledged to return a “historical debt” to Turkey’s “Aleppo brothers,” gave new rise to speculations over a looming Turkish ground invasion of Syria.

The situation has prompted fears of a possible military clash between world powers backing different sides of the Syrian conflict, with hopes that the Munich talks could de-escalate the deadlock. While some Western leaders have openly called upon Russia to stop supporting Assad with airstrikes, the communique that was agreed upon after five long hours of discussions does not directly mention any downsizing of strikes. Instead, it calls for a “nationwide cessation of hostilities” over the period of one week, although it exempts terrorist groups from the potential ceasefire.

In the latest alarming episode, Russian and American militaries traded accusations over the bombing of civilian infrastructure in Aleppo. Russia’s Defense Ministry said two US Air Force A-10 warplanes had destroyed nine facilities in the city, with the Americans shifting the blame onto Russia’s air campaign afterwards. Russian jets, however, had not targeted any civilian areas and were operating 20 kilometers away, according to the ministry. The spat started on Wednesday with the US alleging the destruction of “two main hospitals in Aleppo by Russian and regime attacks.”

From February 4 to 11, the Russian Air Force performed over 500 sorties, eliminating nearly 1,900 terrorist facilities in the Syrian provinces of Aleppo, Latakia, Hama, Deir ez-Zor, Daraa, Homs, Al-Hasakah and Raqqa, Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov said on Thursday.

Meanwhile, the US is seeking to boost the anti-Islamic State coalition it is heading in Iraq and Syria by officially drawing in NATO as a member, AFP reported. While some NATO member states are already active members of the coalition, the military alliance’s chief, Jens Stoltenberg, said their increased role could bring “significant development” and “unique capabilities” which include “building partner capacity, training ground forces and providing stabilization support.”
Read more
© Bassam Khabieh 'NATO considers Syrian troop deployment fearing ISIS may be defeated'

US Defense Secretary Ashton Carter has been lobbying for greater participation by NATO in the war on Islamic State, giving a dramatic Thursday speech on “a new stage in the coalition campaign to defeat ISIL” and adding the countries would then be able “look back after victory and remember who participated in the fight.”

The alliance, however, has already found itself in one uneasy situation related to the conflict, when it had to back Turkey’s downing of a Russian Su-24 bomber that was striking militant positions in Syria. While Ankara rushed to seek NATO’s support following the aggressive and clearly avoidable move, and the bloc delivered this support on an official level, reports cited sources taking part in a NATO emergency meeting at the time as expressing discontent with the rash unilateral move by the Turks. Turkey has since stopped its sorties into Syria in what some attribute to the dispatch of the Russian S-400 air defense systems there, but also due to the pressure by Ankara‘s NATO allies to follow the bloc’s more cautious rules of engagement.

Opinion piece:

Personally I'm unsure about this, more likely Turks and Sauds will have to back down, the kurds might be thrown to the Turks afterwards as a concession. Saudi can continue the Yemeni rape and Syria ends up partitioned.

But Erdogan is a bit of a loose cannon, a wild card. Things could escalate badly if there is another shoot down. Saudis are still saying they will send troops to Syria but that has to be a joke.

http://observer.com/2016/02/mounting-ev ... ite-wwiii/
Mounting Evidence Putin Will Ignite WWIII
By letting Putin get away with whatever he likes in Syria, Obama has created a deeply dangerous situation
By John R. Schindler • 02/11/16 10:51am
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin walks near a new Russian fighter jet Sukhoi T-50, after its flight in Zhukovksy, outside Moscow on June 17, 2010. AFP PHOTO / RIA NOVOSTI / POOL / ALEXEY DRUZHININ (Photo credit should read ALEXEY DRUZHININ/AFP/Getty Images)

Vladimir Putin walks near a Russian fighter jet outside Moscow in 2010. (Photo: Alexey Druzhinin/AFP/Getty Images)

Relations between Russia and Turkey have been dismal since late November, when a Turkish fighter jet shot down a Russian bomber on the border with Syria, killing its pilot. That began a war of words between Moscow and Ankara that ought to concern everyone, since the former has several thousand nuclear weapons and the latter is a member of NATO.

Kremlin propaganda against Ankara has increased of late, setting the stage for further confrontation. As I explained here last week, Russian media outlets initially blamed the Sinai crash of Metrojet 9268 last autumn on the Islamic State, an atrocity which killed 224 innocents, nearly all of them Russians—a quite plausible claim. However, the Kremlin has abruptly shifted course and now blames the mass murder on Turkish ultranationalist terrorists, without any evidence provided to support that explosive assertion.

Where things may be going between Russia and Turkey, ancient enemies who have warred many times over the centuries, was evidenced this week, when the Kremlin announced large-scale surprise military exercises in the regions of the country that are close to Turkey. Troops were moved to full combat readiness, the last stage before a shooting war, with Sergei Shoygu, the Russian defense minister, announcing on TV: “We began our surprise check of the military preparedness in the Southwest strategic direction.”

That would be the direction of Turkey. These snap exercises involve the Southern Military District and the navy’s Black Sea Fleet, which are deeply involved in Russia’s not-so-secret secret war in eastern Ukraine. However, they also involve the navy’s Caspian Sea flotilla, which is nowhere near Ukraine.

It’s difficult to see how Turkey could stand idly by as an ancient city of two million is crushed just fifty miles from its frontier.

This implies that the snap exercises, which have been prominently featured in Kremlin media, are about Turkey, not Russia. This goes back to recent events on the ground in Syria, where the Kremlin-backed regime of Bashar al-Assad is slowly crushing its opponents, thanks to prodigious military help from both Russia and Iran. Regime forces are closing in on Aleppo, Syria’s biggest city, and 50,000 civilians have already fled the city in panic.

The Russian military displays scant regard for civilian casualties. Mr. Putin’s air force killed almost 700 Syrian civilians last month (to compare, the Islamic State killed less than a hundred Syrian civilians in January), and if the crushing of the Chechen capital of Groznyy in 1994-95, when Russian forces killed roughly 35,000 Chechens, mostly civilians, in just six weeks, is any guide, residents of Aleppo are wise to get as far away as they can.

Needless to add, such a bloody siege of Aleppo would set off a humanitarian crisis that the world could not fail to notice. It’s difficult to see how Turkey could stand idly by as an ancient city of two million is crushed just fifty miles from its frontier.

That is precisely the scenario that has seasoned analysts worried. In Pentagon circles, among those who are watching the budding war between Moscow and Ankara, citations of this famous movie clip are now commonplace. Distressingly, smart Russian analysts are thinking along similar lines.

Today Pavel Felgenhauer published his analysis under the alarming title, “Russia has begun preparations for a major war,” and he marshals a convincing case that the snap exercises in the country’s southwest are really a cover for a shooting war with Turkey—and therefore with NATO too, if Ankara is perceived as defending itself and can assert its right to Article 5, collective self-defense, which obligates all members of the Atlantic Alliance to come to Turkey’s aid.

‘It’s clear that there has to be some actual ‘redline’ for Mr. Obama, something that the United States cannot tolerate Russia doing – but where is it? If I don’t know, I’m sure the Kremlin doesn’t either.’

As The New York Times dryly noted of the Kremlin, “The [Defense] Ministry has ordered surprise maneuvers over the last three years as tensions between the East and West have worsened. The maneuvers have at times come as combat escalated in Ukraine and Syria.” In fact, using large-scale military exercises as a cover for aggression is old hat in Moscow. It was used during the August 1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia, which explains why NATO always got jumpy when Moscow held military exercises anywhere NATO territory, while snap exercises like this week inevitably caused Cold War panic.

Mr. Felgenhauer paints an alarmingly plausible scenario. As rebel forces defend Aleppo in Stalingrad fashion, the Syrian military, with Russian help, commences a protracted siege of the city, employing massive firepower, which becomes a humanitarian nightmare of a kind not seen in decades, a tragedy that would dwarf the 1992-95 siege of Sarajevo. However, any Turkish move to lift that siege, even with international imprimatur, would quickly devolve into all-out war.

Mr. Felgenhauer minces no words about this: “Russia has begun the deployment of forces and resources for a major war with Turkey.” Mr. Putin has decided to let his client, the Assad regime, win its bloody civil war, first in the north around Aleppo, and any moves by Turkey or NATO to stop them will be met with force. So far, President Barack Obama has let Mr. Putin do whatever he likes in Syria, no matter the cost in innocent lives, so the Kremlin has no reason to think that will change.

The Yom Kippur War of October 1973, when the United States and the Soviet Union came alarmingly close to great power war, is cited as an ominous precedent by Mr. Felgenhauer—albeit one that ended happily when nuclear war was averted thanks to wise diplomacy. There is no reason to think the befuddled Obama administration is that diplomatically deft.

But who is Pavel Felgenhauer? Regrettably, he is not a guy in furry slippers in someone’s basement spouting weird conspiracy theories. Instead, he is one of Russia’s top defense analysts with solid connections in that country’s military. He is a frequent critic of the Russian military and the Putin regime; it’s noteworthy that he published his analysis in Novoe Vremya (New Times), a Ukrainian newsmagazine, not a Russian outlet, perhaps because this sort of truth-telling is unwelcome at home. His prognostications are often correct, for instance his prediction of the Russian invasion of Georgia in August 2008, which he called two months before it happened.

That is NATO’s top concern right now: that after years of weakness and vacillation, the Obama administration may find itself backed into a corner by aggressive Russian action.

Is Mr. Felgenhauer’s alarmism warranted? Many Western insiders think along similar lines. By letting Mr. Putin get away with whatever he likes in Syria, Mr. Obama has created a deeply dangerous situation in the region. By abandoning his infamous Syria “redline” in September 2013, the White House in effect outsourced American policy there to Mr. Putin, as I warned you at the time, and which the Obama administration, powerless to influence terrible events in Syria, is slowly realizing.

“Are we heading for our ‘Sarajevo moment’?” a senior NATO official bluntly asked: “It’s clear that there has to be some actual ‘redline’ for Mr. Obama, something that the United States cannot tolerate Russia doing – but where is it? If I don’t know, I’m sure the Kremlin doesn’t either.”

That is NATO’s top concern right now: that after years of weakness and vacillation, the Obama administration may find itself backed into a corner by aggressive Russian action. Particularly if coupled with intemperate Turkish reactions, that could create a nightmare of historic proportions around Aleppo. Although the White House has foresworn any military intervention in Syria’s fratricide, it’s worth noting that Mr. Obama led NATO to war in Libya exactly five years ago to prevent possible slaughter in Benghazi, a far smaller humanitarian threat than the terrifying sword of Russian artillery and airpower that’s hanging over Aleppo right now.

For their part, the Russians are upping the ante, with regime media publishing claims by the Defense Ministry that air attacks on Aleppo yesterday that killed civilians, including the bombing of a hospital, were actually perpetrated by U.S. Air Force A-10s, a war crime that they say the Pentagon has tried to pin on Moscow. In fact, American intelligence knows this was the work of the Russian Air Force: “We have intercepts of the Russian pilots talking during the attack,” explained a Pentagon official, “as usual, the Russians are lying.” Yet this sort of dishonest Kremlin propaganda, what spies term disinformation, is exactly what the Obama administration has refused to counter, as I’ve explained in this column, in a futile effort to keep the Kremlin happy.

Mr. Putin instead has taken his measure of Mr. Obama and has doubled down, saving his client regime in Syria. Russia has won in Syria and NATO and the West are stuck with that outcome, as are the unlucky residents of Aleppo. “I hope Obama doesn’t decide to get a backbone now,” suggested a retired American general who knows the Russians well, “since the Kremlin is in ‘drive’ in Syria and isn’t about to do ‘reverse’.”

There seems to be little chance of this White House taking on the Russians in Syria. However, there are no guarantees that Ankara is equally inclined to let the Kremlin do whatever it wants on its southern border, and that is how NATO could get embroiled in World War III over the Levant. Cooler heads may prevail, and all sensible people should hope they do here.
Peace in our time? 8)
Syria conflict: World powers agree cessation of hostilities

1 hour ago
From the section Middle East

Image copyright AFP
Image caption The announcement comes amid a new Syrian government offensive in Aleppo province
Syria's war

Displaced Syrians struggle to survive
Talks break down - but who's to blame?
Siege warfare and suffering in Madaya
Syria: The story of the conflict

World powers have agreed to seek a nationwide "cessation of hostilities" in Syria to begin in a week's time, after talks in Germany.

The halt will not apply to the battle against jihadist groups Islamic State (IS) and al-Nusra Front.

Ministers from the International Syria Support Group also agreed to accelerate and expand aid deliveries.

The announcement comes as the Syrian army, backed by Russian air strikes, advances in Aleppo province.

The move threatens to encircle tens of thousands of civilians in rebel-held parts of the major city of Aleppo.

How Putin is succeeding in Syria
Displaced Syrians struggle to survive
Syria: The story of the conflict

US Secretary of State John Kerry admitted the ceasefire plan was "ambitious" and said the real test would be whether the parties honoured the commitments.

"What we have here are words on paper, what we need to see in the next few days are actions on the ground," he said.

A task force chaired by the US and Russia will work to implement the truce through consultations with Syria's warring factions.

Aid deliveries for besieged Syrian communities are due to begin as early as Friday.
Major gaps remain: BBC Chief International Correspondent Lyse Doucet

Both Sergei Lavrov and John Kerry admitted, repeatedly, this was only progress on paper. Some diplomats are already saying "it's not worth the paper it's printed on".

There are still major gaps. One of the biggest is that Russia's bombing of Aleppo and what it calls terrorist targets is not included in the possible truce even though its actions are seen by many as strengthening Syrian government forces.

On the issue of delivering desperately needed aid to besieged areas, UN officials say they are determined to seize this new opening.

The next week will confirm whether Syria's government and opposition forces are ready to provide access denied for so long.

It will be a week which tests the commitment of all outside players, as well as Syrians on all sides.

That, in itself, is some progress. But moving towards talks to end Syria's devastating war will still take far more than that.

Mr Kerry made the announcement alongside his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov and the UN special envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura.

Mr Lavrov said there were "reasons to hope we have done a great job today". An earlier proposal from Russia envisaged a truce starting on 1 March.

At the press conference Mr Kerry again suggested that Russian strikes were targeting what the West sees as moderate opposition forces, rather than terrorists, as Moscow says.

British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said the cessation would only work if Russia halted its raids, although Mr Lavrov said they would continue.

The Support Group also agreed that peace talks involving the Syrian government and rebels should resume as soon as possible.

Initial talks were suspended just days after they began earlier this month in Geneva, in the wake of the Aleppo offensive.

Thousands of people displaced by the fighting have been stranded at the border with Turkey and aid agencies have warned of a rapidly deteriorating humanitarian situation.

A spokesman for the Syrian opposition, Salem al-Meslet, told the BBC "if we see action and implementation on the ground, we will be soon in Geneva".
Syria conflict - key questions
Image copyright AP

Why is there a war in Syria?

Anti-government protests developed into a civil war that, four years on, has ground to a stalemate, with the Assad government, Islamic State, an array of Syrian rebels and Kurdish fighters all holding territory.

Who is fighting whom?

Government forces concentrated in Damascus and the centre and west of Syria are fighting the jihadists of Islamic State and al-Nusra Front, as well as less numerous so-called "moderate" rebel groups, who are strongest in the north and east. These groups are also battling each other.

How has the world reacted?

Iran, Russia and Lebanon's Hezbollah movement are propping up the Alawite-led Assad government, while Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar back the more moderate Sunni-dominated opposition, along with the US, UK and France. Hezbollah and Iran are believed to have troops and officers on the ground, while a Western-led coalition and Russia are carrying out air strikes.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35556783
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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I thought the Saudi's military was well funded but not well trained. Are they going to be able to make a difference in Syria?
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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They could certainly make things worse...
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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The ceasefire almost means nothing now for there is no reason for Russia to ever honor it. With their strategic goal of wiping out the "moderate" rebels within their grasp they will soon be able to offer the west the choice between either backing Assad or ISIS. Considering the Russians are behaving like a Barbarian horde currently as well with regards to civilian targets (GLORIOUS RUSSIAN MILITARY ONLY KILLS TERRORISTS) while also not focusing on Isis the situation will not get better in terms of stability. Best one can hope now is to limit the killing somewhat and hope Russia will not simply tolerate Isis in exchange for having a convenient bogeyman in charge of some insignificant stronghold.

And once more Putin plays Obama like a fiddle in all of this - which for him is much needed revenge now that he has lost the vast majority of the Ukraine and his Crimean project is not doing so well either.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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Bah. As if Saudi-controlled salafist shitbags like the Army of Conquest would honor any "truce" either.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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mr friendly guy wrote:I thought the Saudi's military was well funded but not well trained. Are they going to be able to make a difference in Syria?
The Saudi National Guard actually are fairly well trained, largely because their loyalty can be assured. The problem is that they lack the heavy weapons, which belong to the Army. The other problem is that Arab culture doesn't really lend itself to organizing a modern army, which is why Arab armies inevitably loose conventional wars against Western ones. Though it is also why they rarely bother to fight them. Though against what they would be facing in Syria, a modern army isn't exactly required.

Besides that, I don't see how the Saudis would even deploy much of anything to Syria. Their logistics capabilities are largely crap, with nothing heavier than a C-130. Though that would work if they wanted to deploy the lighter National Guard units rather than the Army.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

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http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ia/462231/
What Happens If Aleppo Falls?
Why the Syrian war—and the future of Europe—may hinge on one city


A reporter and a rebel fighter run to avoid sniper fire in the countryside north of Aleppo in 2014.Jalal al-Mamo / Reuters
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KATHY GILSINAN FEB 11, 2016 GLOBAL
This week, the Syrian army, backed by Russian air strikes and Iranian-supported militias including Hezbollah, launched a major offensive to encircle rebel strongholds in the northern city of Aleppo, choking off one of the last two secure routes connecting the city to Turkey and closing in on the second. This would cut supplies not only to a core of the rebellion against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, but also to the city’s 300,000 remaining civilians, who may soon find themselves besieged like hundreds of thousands of others in the country. In response, 50,000 civilians have fled Aleppo for the Turkish border, where the border crossing is currently closed. An unnamed U.S. defense official told The Daily Beast’s Nancy Youssef that “the war is essentially over” if Assad manages to seize and hold Aleppo.

The city, formerly Syria’s largest and its commercial and industrial hub, has proven pivotal to the civil war in the past. As Andrew Tabler of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy explained to me, the rebels’ push to take Aleppo in 2012—following a year in which the city had seen relatively little of the protests and violence that had been escalating elsewhere in the country—“was one of the first real major offensives of the armed opposition in Syria.” The hope was to set up an alternative capital there to rival Damascus, and from that base to gradually expand opposition control. The city has been roughly divided between the regime and the rebels ever since, with Assad’s forces mainly in the west and opposition forces mainly in the east, and “with some parts of the city changing hands on a daily basis,” according to the BBC.

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Critically, the rebels have controlled major roads to Turkey, which has allowed them to transport supplies into their half of the city and to their other strongholds in northern Syria. Government forces in western Aleppo, meanwhile, have been cut off from those ground routes and forced to rely on airplanes and helicopters to get supplies. As Aleppo became the site of a bloody urban war of attrition—in late 2013, Assad’s forces barrel-bombed the city for a month straight, and they have repeatedly tried to encircle it—the rebels have held on.

Russia’s military intervention in Syria, which began last fall, may change that. Unlike the U.S. coalition’s air strikes in the country, which have targeted ISIS-controlled areas in eastern Syria, Russia’s are targeting rebel groups, some of them backed by the United States, in the country’s west, including near Aleppo. “[T]he bombing over the last four months has significantly softened up the opposition, and decimated them in many areas,” Tabler said. Against that backdrop, and barring an unlikely breakthrough at international peace talks scheduled to resume this week (after they were called off following the Syrian army’s advance on Aleppo), the regime offensive to recapture the city may ultimately succeed, even if it takes starving its inhabitants into submission.

I asked Tabler to walk me through what Aleppo has meant to the rebellion so far—and what would happen if the city falls to Assad. An edited and condensed transcript of our conversation follows.

The Campaign for Aleppo:
September 30, 2015 to February 5, 2016


Institute for the Study of War
Kathy Gilsinan: I wanted to start with what the significance of Aleppo has been to the Syrian uprising up to this point.

Andrew Tabler: Aleppo is Syria’s largest city. It’s the commercial hub. It is extremely important, particularly to the opposition, because Aleppo, along with the other northwestern cities, have been some of the strongest opponents to the Assad regime historically. I think the decision in 2012 to take [the city] was one of the first real major offensives of the armed opposition in Syria. And they hoped that by denying the regime Aleppo, it would set up an alternative capital and allow for a process where the Assad regime’s power was whittled away. Since that time, it has instead been one of the most bombed, barrel-bombed, and decimated parts of Syria, and now is much more like Dresden than anything else.

Gilsinan: What’s changed that the regime looks like it’s about to retake it? Why not in 2012, the first time the U.S. thought Assad’s forces were poised to commit a massacre [there]? Why not in 2013, when the regime barrel-bombed the city for a month straight, or in 2014, when they were talking about a “decisive battle” [as the government tried to encircle Aleppo]?

Tabler: Two things. One is the Russian military intervention, and that the bombing over the last four months has significantly softened up the opposition, and decimated them in many areas. Also, it has led to an exodus of civilians from many of these areas, which weighs heavily on the opposition, which governs many of these different points. That’s the first big change.

The other change is that the Iranians, specifically Hezbollah and Shia militias [backed by Iran], are showing up as part of this Russian push. They were already there, but they have amped up their presence. And that, particularly around Aleppo, has been the ground component. The regime suffers from manpower shortages, so this Russian-Iranian one-two punch has set us on the current trajectory towards the Assad regime possibly retaking Aleppo and areas beyond.

Gilsinan: How does [the Russian air campaign] compare to U.S. and, say, French, sorties over Syria? They’re in different areas.

Tabler: U.S. strikes are primarily in the eastern part of the country where ISIS is present. The Russians are the ones who are hitting in western Syria. By [U.S. government] estimates, about 80 percent of their strikes are on non-ISIS targets.

The Russians have been hitting many of the more moderate groups that are backed by the United States. They claim they’re hitting extremists, but [have not launched as many strikes] on ISIS itself. So that has softened up the opposition and therefore led to this operation that we see currently around Aleppo.

Gilsinan: But there are extremists in Aleppo, right?

Tabler: Oh sure, in opposition areas you have [the al-Qaeda affiliate] Jabhat al-Nusra, but you have lots of other formations as well, which are not Jabhat al-Nusra. And some of them are Islamist—I think a lot of the Islamist, or the Salafist groups, the Russians regard as terrorists. We [in the United States] do not. It doesn’t mean we’re aligned with them but we don’t see them the same way.

Gilsinan: So if Assad can retake the city as a whole, can his forces hold it?

Tabler: Well that’s the real question. Until now, the problem for the regime has been that it can’t retake and hold areas, because it doesn’t have the manpower. So those manpower shortages remain, but the change has been that the Russian air strikes have instituted a scorched-earth policy which destroys the area and pushes people out. So when an area’s destroyed, it’s easier to take and hold, because you need less men, because there aren’t any other people there.

Gilsinan: That gets to the next question, which is what the humanitarian effect would be. Specifically, what’s the likelihood of another starvation siege, and how would the scale of something like that in Aleppo compare to what we’ve seen already in [the Syrian town of] Madaya, where citizens are reportedly eating grass and leaves?

Tabler: I think you can expect what we’ve seen elsewhere in Syria, except here it would be much larger in scale—could be upwards of 300,000 who are besieged.

Gilsinan: Which is another way to hold territory, I guess.

Tabler: Well, it is, it’s a way to not have to go in and clean an area. But while it’s besieged, the Russian air force is going to be pounding that area, so there’ll be a lot of death and destruction along the way. It’s just that people won’t have anywhere to go. Except to surrender.

“People won’t have anywhere to go. Except to surrender.”
Gilsinan: Would this be the worst single humanitarian catastrophe of the war so far, since [Aleppo is] the biggest city?

Tabler: Potentially. There are other areas around Homs, [in] which we’ve seen similar [humanitarian crises], but maybe not in the same scale because of the population overall. It potentially could be the biggest disaster of the war. We’ll have to see what happens in the coming days, concerning the negotiations, and who gives up and where, and so on.

Gilsinan: If Aleppo falls, walk me through what happens next. First, how would it change the balance of power, within the civil war, between the rebels and the regime?

Tabler: I think it would cement the regime’s hold on “essential Syria”—western Syria, perhaps with the exception of Idlib province [to] the south [of Aleppo]. But basically you would have the regime presence from Aleppo the whole way down to Hama, Homs, and Damascus, and that’s the spine of the country, and that’s what concerns the regime and the Iranians in particular. It would then allow them to free up forces, potentially, to go on the offensive elsewhere, directly into Idlib province, most likely, and then eventually into the south. Then after that they could turn their attention finally to ISIS, which the United States is trying to defeat.

Syrian Army Strategy, Early 2016


Washington Institute for Near East Policy
But all of these things would take some time, would take probably months or years to fully institute. But I think that’s what the regime and the Russians are going for: They’re going for a whole-country solution to the Syria crisis based on the Assad regime.

Gilsinan: And then what happens to the regional balance of power within that war?

Tabler: It would be a tremendous loss for the U.S. and its traditional allies: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Jordan. It’s already been extremely costly for most of those allies, but it would be a defeat [in the face of] the Russian-Iranian intervention in Syria. This would also be a huge loss for the United States vis-à-vis Russia in its Middle East policy, certainly. And because of the flow of refugees as a result of this, if they go northward to Europe, then you would see a migrant crisis in Europe that could lead to far-right governments coming to power which are much more friendly to Russia than they are to the United States. I think that is likely to happen.

Gilsinan: So it changes the entire orientation, not just of the Middle East, but of Europe as well.

Tabler: It will soften up American power in Europe, yeah. And put into jeopardy a lot of the advances in the NATO-accession countries, which are adjacent to Russia, as well.

Gilsinan: That’s a staggeringly significant outcome for relatively cheap [expenditures] on Russia’s part.

Tabler: It is, isn’t it? I don’t think most people get how much of a blowout this really is. I don’t think most people understand: This defeat of the United States by Russia in Syria, it’s not just about Syria. It’s about our presence in Europe.

“This defeat of the United States by Russia in Syria, it’s not just about Syria. It’s about our presence in Europe.”
Gilsinan: That’s an interesting dynamic to me, because you almost wouldn’t have seen it coming, or at least I wouldn’t have, from this direction. Russia wasn’t really able to change the entire orientation of Europe by intervening in Ukraine, say.

Tabler: Right, but this is the result of the American miscalculation that the Syria crisis could be contained. And so we’re seeing now the failure of policy which happened years ago. It’s not just about military intervention in Syria. It is about the failure to create safe areas in order to protect [people] so that they wouldn’t go running for their lives to Europe. And that’s the real tragedy here. And it’s simply because the White House did not believe that the cost was worth it.

Gilsinan: Do you think that that calculation—that the Syria crisis could be contained—obviously it’s wrong in hindsight, but could this have been foreseen, or was it a reasonable gamble at the time that turns out to have failed?

Tabler: No, it wasn’t a reasonable gamble. All the trajectories for displacement of persons, as part of the overall humanitarian disaster generated by the civil war, these trends have been present for years. It’s not that the government didn’t pick them up—many in the U.S. government did. It’s that the decision was to do nothing that involved efforts to protect civilians. There was a decision to support the rebels covertly, there was a decision to try and get a train-and-equip program to fight ISIL, we know all about that, it didn’t go well. But there was no effort to protect civilians inside of Syria, other than to distribute aid in neighboring countries and to try and get that aid across the border.

Gilsinan: What do you think this bodes for the future of humanitarian intervention, or efforts to protect civilians in conflict, or international involvement in other people’s civil wars? Do you think there are lessons here that may be applied for future situations like this?

“The decision was to do nothing that involved efforts to protect civilians.”
Tabler: I certainly think “responsibility to protect” is not something that this administration observed. Other ramifications are just the significant weakening of American power. We’re not talking here about the use of force; that’s what was avoided. Power is a lot about perception, about people being able to understand that they can count on you. Do your words matter? And I think in Syria, our words didn’t matter. If you look at it, going back to [President Barack Obama’s call for] Assad [to] step aside, which was read by many to mean that he must go, and I think particularly the red-line incident, the non-strike incident of 2013, that was particularly damaging to American credibility. And I think [it] had ramifications for Russian calculations in Ukraine, and ultimately the calculations of our allies. But we have to understand that this president was elected to get us out of the Middle East. And I think we [Americans] missed that. Because along the way I think he made a lot of decisions on the Middle East which seemed to indicate that he was of two minds. But in the end I think we got the candidate who we originally elected.

The Islamic State of Iraq would not have evolved into ISIL, which would not have evolved into the Islamic State, had it not been for the Syrian Civil War. It generated an unprecedented terrorist threat that we’re only beginning to grapple with now. It also created this humanitarian disaster, which no one seems to fully understand the ramifications of until this point. And I think those two things have made Americans much less safe. And I would point to the testimony [this week] of [Director of National Intelligence] James Clapper about [the risk of] ISIS running its operatives through the refugees. This really, I think, allows ISIS to spread a lot of their terror. And with it, destabilize Europe in the process.

“We have to understand that this president was elected to get us out of the Middle East.”
Gilsinan: You mentioned the decline in American power as a result of the Syrian conflict, and I’m wondering if that’s a cause or effect. Is Syria the way it is because American power had already declined?

Tabler: No, no no no. Our economic power ebbs and flows with the markets and with our economic performance. Our military power has not really significantly declined, and that of our combined presence [with] our allies in the region, is far greater than that of Russia. It’s simply as a result of not making decisions at key junctures, not just about the use of force. We were led into this cul-de-sac by the president, where now we are potentially going to stand by and watch the Syrian opposition run into gunfire until the regime runs out of bullets.

This was never about invading Syria. No person that I know of advocated for invading Syria, of all those who advocated for doing more with the opposition. Now we’re in a situation where in order to protect civilians in Syria, we would probably, with our allies, have to invade at least part of the country. But we’re unwilling to do that, of course. So instead the Syrians are left hanging. I just can’t imagine that this is going to make our lives any easier. And it certainly calls into question our very commitment to things like human rights, [punishing or preventing] war crimes, phrases like “never again.” And I think that’s extremely damaging to U.S. credibility and [America’s] reputation in the world today.

Gilsinan: So the actual [physical] capabilities of U.S. power remain the same—it’s influence that you see waning?

Tabler: Yeah. U.S. power, military power and so on, remains, but our willingness to use it has gone down significantly. And I think that’s part of the Iraq War. So if we’re not going to use it, in cases where chemical weapons have been used, [where] we’ve drawn a red line, or there’s a huge humanitarian disaster and we need to protect not just Syrians but also our allies from the results of that, then it begs the question about U.S. military expenditure in general. Why maintain such high military expenditure if you’re unwilling to use it in cases where it’s actually justified? The other part of it is that by demonstrating that we were unwilling to use military force in precise ways at key junctures, we then encouraged others to fill that vacuum. The Russians have been planning this for years, and I’ve spoken with them in Moscow about it.

“Now we are potentially going to stand by and watch the Syrian opposition run into gunfire until the regime runs out of bullets.”
Gilsinan: Since when? Since 2011?

Tabler: I first saw it in 2014, but it’s been going for a while. It’s the response to what they call “color revolutions.”

Gilsinan: So what were you hearing in Moscow?

Tabler: They believe that the problem is not the Arab uprisings—the problem is the American response to the Arab uprisings. So instead they advocate for something called military-to-military cooperation. Like-minded countries, essentially, work together through their militaries to blast their way out of it. And that’s the way they look at it. And that’s what’s happening right now in Syria. We’ll see if it politically works and so on. And many elsewhere in Europe might see it in similar ways. But what’s interesting is that it’s Russian air strikes that are pushing Syrians out of the country, en masse. So in a way Russia is, with the regime and with the Iranians, playing the role of the arsonist in Syria, and then being heralded as the fireman who comes to put it out. That is really amazing. Because it makes you central to any solution either way. And that makes the world a really chaotic place, and a big challenge, I think, for the incoming [U.S.] president.
Long and interesting read, but essentially the crux of the message is.

If Aleppo falls, more refugees go to Europe. Russia benefits because Europe gets right wing governments (not necessarily IMO) and right wing governments more friendly towards Russia than America (again this would depend on the country).

Obama fucked up. Putin is badass.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Syria

Post by Broomstick »

I keep hearing "Obama fucked up". I'd be interested in hearing what people think a non-fucked course of action for the US would have been.
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