"Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Lonestar »

Havok wrote:I'm talking about her crack about Australians numbnuts.
Some am I. You asked why people were taking the statement at face value, I told you.

But since your brought it up, change 'rocks in national forest' to 'skyscraper in New York', 'train in Chicago'. Those are defacing things literally worth hundreds of millions of dollars, but no one in here would be advocating prison time, but oh no paint on something I LIKE and it's Federal Time You Fucking Criminal!
Man, if you didn't read what I posted, just say you didn't read the post. I said she deserves prison time because she's a repeat offender("at least 10 parks") and demonstrated that she personally didn't give a shit when it was pointed out it was wrong, not because she engaged in graffiti once and that was that.

So yeah, if there's a repeat offender in a urban area, I say prison time is warranted there as well. In those scenarios though, very few are so accommodating as to document the evidence for it, which is a big part of the story here.
And again SHOW ANYWHERE that she actually DESTROYED anything irreplaceable?
I'd say that climbing on pre-Columbian Native American art so she can put her shitty art on the rocks count. But hey, let's go with defacing and damaging natural areas just because she has a inflated sense of her self worth. Part of the purpose of national parks is to preserve wilderness, tagging rocks and sandstone is hardly "preserving wilderness".
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by salm »

Broomstick wrote:
Havok wrote:But since your brought it up, change 'rocks in national forest' to 'skyscraper in New York', 'train in Chicago'. Those are defacing things literally worth hundreds of millions of dollars, but no one in here would be advocating prison time, but oh no paint on something I LIKE and it's Federal Time You Fucking Criminal!
Actually, having lived in a urban area and frequently witnessing graffiti I could get behind a couple months prison time for the guilty parties.
We have a pretty bizarr situation here in Berlin. It´s probably the most densly graffiti painted area in the country and it´s diffcult to find a non painted wall in some sectors. The police is (uselessly) following a very strict approach regarding graffiti but the citys marketing on the other hand is promoting the city by showing off it´s vast amounts of illegal street art.

Personally i have no problem with graffiti. The normal graffiti is something that just blends in and is no more visible to me than a gray wall. Every now and then a graffiti sticks out because it´s exceptionally well done, exceptionally large, funny, witty or painted at a place where you just have to wonder how the fuck the sprayer got there. So all in all I think graffiti are a net gain for a city. And apparently the city thinks there is value in it as well.
Of course I don´t own a house and only have to deal with the costs of graffiti by having to pay more service charges. But these extra costs are rather hidden.

Painting historical sites is a different kettle of fish, though. It devalues something rare so I think it´s a bad thing compared to painting ubiquitous buildings.
Nevertheless, locking people up, esspecially in a prison system as draconian as the US American is excessive. The probability of transforming this idiot teenager into a real criminal seems too high.
If you slap her with an adequat fine - nothing financially ruining but uncomfortable - and/or community service she´ll probably stop this nonsense.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Grumman »

Darmalus wrote:People would probably flip out if those were irreplaceable thousand year old trains and skyscrapers. To paraphrase an Indiana Jones movie, in a thousand years our old cat food cans and candy wrappers will be worth something.
Maybe, but at some point you stop being an archaeologist and become the star of the next episode of Hoarders.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Broomstick »

salm wrote:Personally i have no problem with graffiti. The normal graffiti is something that just blends in and is no more visible to me than a gray wall. Every now and then a graffiti sticks out because it´s exceptionally well done, exceptionally large, funny, witty or painted at a place where you just have to wonder how the fuck the sprayer got there.
The normal graffiti in my area tends to be naughty words, misspelled slang names for body parts, badly done depictions of body parts normally concealed by clothing, and gang signs that look like badly done arcane runes to declare something the "territory" of a gang, akin to dogs pissing on fire hydrants. It's not art. It's the visual equivalent of smearing boogers on a bus seat.
Of course I don´t own a house and only have to deal with the costs of graffiti by having to pay more service charges. But these extra costs are rather hidden.
They're not hidden for the property owners.
Nevertheless, locking people up, esspecially in a prison system as draconian as the US American is excessive.
OK. Go back and read my post about the distinction between "jail" and "prison" in America, and the difference in impact between "misdemeanor" and "felony". It is the 10th post on the first page of this thread.

No one here (I think) is talking about a 10 year term in a pound-you-in-the-ass Federal prison. It's a couple months in the local jail, or perhaps house arrest with an ankle bracelet to help enforce it.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by salm »

Broomstick wrote: The normal graffiti in my area tends to be naughty words, misspelled slang names for body parts, badly done depictions of body parts normally concealed by clothing, and gang signs that look like badly done arcane runes to declare something the "territory" of a gang, akin to dogs pissing on fire hydrants. It's not art. It's the visual equivalent of smearing boogers on a bus seat.
Oh, here too. Minus the gang crap. It´s just ugly stuff if you look at it consciously but in day to day life you don´t look at it consciously. It´s like it´s not even there. People who live elsewhere and visit notice it all the time. Nobody who lives here notices it.
It does add to the citys flair, though, hence the city of berlin advertising it in order to attract tourists who will leave their money here. They are prosecuting and marketing crime at the same time which I find amusing. They´re not even marketing it as something spectacular but negative, like you might advertise a museum exhibiting your local mass murderer or genocidal dictator but as something truely culturally valuable.
So, besides the very subjective "graffiti is art and looks nice, improves flair, gives young people a non violent outlet, etc" aspect, gaffiti can have a the very objective value of hard cash aspect to it.
They're not hidden for the property owners.
Indeed, I was acknowledging the problems graffiti causes to some people and pointing out how it is beneficial to other people. Just because I generally endorse something doesn´t mean that I´m blind to negative aspects of it, just that, imo, the positve outweigh the negative.
In case of property rights I think they are negligable when it comes to graffiti. Exterior walls of buildings are so heavily regulated anyway - which is logical with them being in puplic space - that it wouldn´t be that much of an infringement to simply legalize graffiti.
OK. Go back and read my post about the distinction between "jail" and "prison" in America, and the difference in impact between "misdemeanor" and "felony". It is the 10th post on the first page of this thread.

No one here (I think) is talking about a 10 year term in a pound-you-in-the-ass Federal prison. It's a couple months in the local jail, or perhaps house arrest with an ankle bracelet to help enforce it.
I haven´t forgoten about that. On the other hand prison sentances have been suggested in this thread a couple of posts above, for example, by Lonsestar.
Actually you yourself said it two posts above as well:
"I could get behind a couple months prison time..."
After you had lined out the differences between jail and prison I assumed you actually did mean the real prison.

However, I think even jail is too harsh.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Broomstick »

salm wrote:Oh, here too. Minus the gang crap. It´s just ugly stuff if you look at it consciously but in day to day life you don´t look at it consciously. It´s like it´s not even there. People who live elsewhere and visit notice it all the time. Nobody who lives here notices it.
I certainly noticed it when I lived in Chicago. I still notice it where I live now, although it's much less common.

See, the problem with the gang graffiti is that they really do consider it as marking "their" territory. Which means they are willing to fight over it. With guns.

When you get gang graffiti in your neighborhood in the US it means very shortly you'll be having shootings, with all that implies, including innocent bystanders getting hurt and killed.

Which is, of course, different than what the silly bitch pissing in National Parks did. But when graffiti can mean a real hazard is moving into your neighborhood such acts of vandalism tend to be colored by past experience. I mean, I'm "glad" you think it's cute or some sort of "flair", but you're ignoring some of the implications in other places.
So, besides the very subjective "graffiti is art and looks nice, improves flair, gives young people a non violent outlet, etc" aspect, gaffiti can have a the very objective value of hard cash aspect to it.
Yes, there are companies that make a good living removing it from walls and such. It's a multi-million dollar industry, removing the damage.
They're not hidden for the property owners.
Indeed, I was acknowledging the problems graffiti causes to some people and pointing out how it is beneficial to other people. Just because I generally endorse something doesn´t mean that I´m blind to negative aspects of it, just that, imo, the positve outweigh the negative.
Oh, really?

You do realize that the people who have their homes defaced, or their vehicles sprayed, or the local playground painted with lewd pictures and offensive words have to pay to have the damage repaired out of their own pocket? THEY are not the ones profiting off this. Do any of those tourist dollars you talk about go to removing paint from buildings and objects the owners didn't want painted in the first place?

How wonderful - someone's property is marred or even destroyed and you applaud that someone else makes money off it. Have you actually thought this through or not? For the average property owner there is NO upside to this sort of pissing-and-marking-territory bullshit. Their property is damaged, they must make the repairs on their own, and watch others profit from their loss. What utter bullshit.
However, I think even jail is too harsh.
For first offenders? Maybe - fines, community service, and they have to clean up the mess/make restitution.
Do it again? Jail
Chronic repeat offender? Let's talk prison. Because property destruction is a crime, just like theft.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by salm »

Broomstick wrote: I certainly noticed it when I lived in Chicago. I still notice it where I live now, although it's much less common.

See, the problem with the gang graffiti is that they really do consider it as marking "their" territory. Which means they are willing to fight over it. With guns.

When you get gang graffiti in your neighborhood in the US it means very shortly you'll be having shootings, with all that implies, including innocent bystanders getting hurt and killed.

Which is, of course, different than what the silly bitch pissing in National Parks did. But when graffiti can mean a real hazard is moving into your neighborhood such acts of vandalism tend to be colored by past experience. I mean, I'm "glad" you think it's cute or some sort of "flair", but you're ignoring some of the implications in other places.
Gangs cause graffiti. Graffiti doesn´t cause gangs. If you have gangs you´ll have their markings, they won´t care about it´s legal or social status. Gangs are a different problem than graffiti causing property damage.

Why are putting flair in condescending brackets or protray it as if it was just my personal opinion when I´ve showed that the marketing sections of a metropolis thinks this way?
Yes, there are companies that make a good living removing it from walls and such. It's a multi-million dollar industry, removing the damage.
This really doesn´t change anything about the increased amount of attracted tourists.

What I´d like to see is that cities financing studies on how to profit one way or the other from graffiti. The thing is, no matter if one likes it, graffiti is here to stay. It´s a criminal offense now and that doesn´t keep people form painting the whole town. We might as well try to find methods to capitalize on it.
Actually a whole bunch of cities (e.g. Vienna, Helsinki, Potsdam) have been declaring graffiti as part of "urban culture" in recent years and shown willingness to accept it. There are a lot of legal walls in some cities.
Now, I think it would be worth a try as a model test run to change the building code of certain heavily painted areas to let the citizens paint walls that are on or border public space. I´d expect more graffiti in general but also a general increase of quality due to the sprayers not having to rush things due to its illegal nature.
Now, if the owner decides to spend money to remove the graffiti, that´s up to him of course. The thing is that ownership doesn´t necessarily entitle you to do everything with your property and doesn´t entitle you to prevent having everything done to your property. It would be trivial to include paint the exterior walls to the list of things the owner has no say about.
Oh, really?

You do realize that the people who have their homes defaced, or their vehicles sprayed, or the local playground painted with lewd pictures and offensive words have to pay to have the damage repaired out of their own pocket? THEY are not the ones profiting off this. Do any of those tourist dollars you talk about go to removing paint from buildings and objects the owners didn't want painted in the first place?

How wonderful - someone's property is marred or even destroyed and you applaud that someone else makes money off it. Have you actually thought this through or not? For the average property owner there is NO upside to this sort of pissing-and-marking-territory bullshit. Their property is damaged, they must make the repairs on their own, and watch others profit from their loss. What utter bullshit.
I think it´s obvious that I realize this because that´s exactly why I talked about how graffiti being problematic or beneficial, depending on whom you ask.

The owners profit in the sense that the city gets more tourists, who spend money in the city on hotels, restaurant which increases tax revenue and indirectly drives up the value of the buildings.
Interstingly, graffiti has also been a sign of impending gentrification, which is a building owners wet dream.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

salm wrote: We have a pretty bizarr situation here in Berlin. It´s probably the most densly graffiti painted area in the country and it´s diffcult to find a non painted wall in some sectors. The police is (uselessly) following a very strict approach regarding graffiti but the citys marketing on the other hand is promoting the city by showing off it´s vast amounts of illegal street art.
Berlin is also an interesting case, because it has segments of the old Berlin Wall that are still standing and completely covered in graffiti (it has been a few years since I've been there, but I think near Potsdamer Platz? I forget the geography of the city). This is one of the cases where the graffiti-tagged portions of the wall are a more important cultural and historical monument than the wall itself. They have become a real symbol of the reunification of Germany and the ability to heal and move forward from a traumatic historical period.

While in general I agree with Broomstick, and have no interest in seeing people's homes or businesses defaced because some ass like Banksy wants to be "oh-so-clever" by spray-painting something moderately controversial, or what-have-you, that doesn't mean that all graffiti is necessarily bad. In that particular area of Berlin, it is a very important part of the culture, and most of it is on derelict buildings that have only since been repurposed into apartments and art studios. A similar phenomenon can be seen in the arts district in Beijing; former industrial facilities that were spray-painted while abandoned, and since have become important centroids in the art and cultural movement of the city. While Berlin and Beijing have probably the most notable and spectacular intances of this, I think in just about any major city you can find something like this.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Broomstick »

salm wrote:Why are putting flair in condescending brackets or protray it as if it was just my personal opinion when I´ve showed that the marketing sections of a metropolis thinks this way?
Because "graffiti is art" is an opinion. Whether or not anything is art, or worthwhile art, is an opinion. I don't agree with your opinion, nor the opinion of people who thing paint smeared on a walls is "cute" or something to market to tourists.
Yes, there are companies that make a good living removing it from walls and such. It's a multi-million dollar industry, removing the damage.
This really doesn´t change anything about the increased amount of attracted tourists.
Just sucks to be the property owner who has to foot the bill, then, doesn't it? Not a goddamn dime goes to the property owners who have to put up with this, does it?
What I´d like to see is that cities financing studies on how to profit one way or the other from graffiti.
Right the CITY - that is, the POLITICIANS - profit from the graffiti. The property owners just have to suck it up, right? Again, what do they get?
Now, if the owner decides to spend money to remove the graffiti, that´s up to him of course. The thing is that ownership doesn´t necessarily entitle you to do everything with your property and doesn´t entitle you to prevent having everything done to your property. It would be trivial to include paint the exterior walls to the list of things the owner has no say about.
Oh, right - well, you see, in the US private property owners DO have a say in the exterior of their buildings (a few historical ones excepted, which graffiti "artists" aren't allowed to deface, either) and do have the right to exclude strangers from their property. Trespassing is also a crime.

Owners of public buildings that allow the public access still have the right to restrict what visitors do. Including forbidding them from defacing the walls.
The owners profit in the sense that the city gets more tourists, who spend money in the city on hotels, restaurant which increases tax revenue and indirectly drives up the value of the buildings.
Increased property values mean a larger tax bill.

Property owners - unless they are one of those hotels or restaurants - get jack from the money tourists spend.

Again - the people whose property is defaced get NOTHING but increased costs.
Interstingly, graffiti has also been a sign of impending gentrification, which is a building owners wet dream.
Since when?

Here in the US it's associated with urban decay, gangs, decreased safety, and increased crime.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Grumman »

Broomstick wrote:
Interstingly, graffiti has also been a sign of impending gentrification, which is a building owners wet dream.
Since when?

Here in the US it's associated with urban decay, gangs, decreased safety, and increased crime.
Yeah, the only way that makes any sense is if "impending gentrification" means nothing more than "not gentrified, but you hope it will be".
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Havok »

Lonestar wrote:
Havok wrote:I'm talking about her crack about Australians numbnuts.
Some am I. You asked why people were taking the statement at face value, I told you.
Uh, yeah, "does graffiti a lot = why people take a pretty obviously sarcastic comment at face value" your response does not show. Is your point that as you level up in "Criminal" you get a penalty to "Use Sarcasm"?

But since your brought it up, change 'rocks in national forest' to 'skyscraper in New York', 'train in Chicago'. Those are defacing things literally worth hundreds of millions of dollars, but no one in here would be advocating prison time, but oh no paint on something I LIKE and it's Federal Time You Fucking Criminal!
Man, if you didn't read what I posted, just say you didn't read the post. I said she deserves prison time because she's a repeat offender("at least 10 parks") and demonstrated that she personally didn't give a shit when it was pointed out it was wrong, not because she engaged in graffiti once and that was that.

So yeah, if there's a repeat offender in a urban area, I say prison time is warranted there as well. In those scenarios though, very few are so accommodating as to document the evidence for it, which is a big part of the story here.
I read what you wrote. Graffiti should never be a crime that sends you to jail unless it literally causes damage to something. I don't care how many times you do it. As long as it can be cleaned up with no damage, the punishment should be having to clean it fucking up. Again, if she destroyed ACTUAL historical paintings then that is another issue.
And again SHOW ANYWHERE that she actually DESTROYED anything irreplaceable?
I'd say that climbing on pre-Columbian Native American art so she can put her shitty art on the rocks count. But hey, let's go with defacing and damaging natural areas just because she has a inflated sense of her self worth. Part of the purpose of national parks is to preserve wilderness, tagging rocks and sandstone is hardly "preserving wilderness".
Again, show me the actual damage. If she just painted on rock with acrylics, there is nothing that says to me "prison term" no matter what anyone thinks of her ego or art. And how is wilderness not being preserved? Those Indians drew on the rocks a couple thousand years ago and the wilderness is doing just fine.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by salm »

This has gotten rather long. If you don´t have time or interest you can skip straight to the last paragraph as it is the most important aspect, imo.
Broomstick wrote: Because "graffiti is art" is an opinion. Whether or not anything is art, or worthwhile art, is an opinion. I don't agree with your opinion, nor the opinion of people who thing paint smeared on a walls is "cute" or something to market to tourists.
It seems to be an opinion that is signifcant enough to use as a marketing tool, so I see no reason to simply dismiss it as worthless.
Just sucks to be the property owner who has to foot the bill, then, doesn't it? Not a goddamn dime goes to the property owners who have to put up with this, does it?

Right the CITY - that is, the POLITICIANS - profit from the graffiti. The property owners just have to suck it up, right? Again, what do they get?
A city isn´t just politicians. The whole economy of a city and with that it´s inhabitants profit from a flourishing tourist industry. In the 90s Berlin had around 3 Million tourists per year. These days it´s over 11 million per year. That´s an increase of almost 400% in only 10 or so years. This is due to the fact that Berlin marketed itself as a cool, arty farty, urban city. Poor but sexy were the mayors words for discribing Berlin several years back. This "sexyness" is derieved from the urban "flair" which graffiti contributes to.
Now, I´m using Berlin as an example. But there are other cities that are similar. Hamburg has similar areas that have made the city more appealing. In the US I´m not sure but I´d guess that certain areas of New York or New Orleans profit heavily from the "flair".
It´s entirely possible that this is constrained to some cities and wouldn´t work in others, of course. But I´m trying to combat the mindset that graffiti = necessarily bad.
Oh, right - well, you see, in the US private property owners DO have a say in the exterior of their buildings (a few historical ones excepted, which graffiti "artists" aren't allowed to deface, either) and do have the right to exclude strangers from their property. Trespassing is also a crime.

Owners of public buildings that allow the public access still have the right to restrict what visitors do. Including forbidding them from defacing the walls.
We have a thing called "Bebauungsplan" which, I think, roughly translates to zoning. It includes a whole bunch of regulation concerning how you are alowed to build and use buildings in certain areas. From safety regulations, to density and usage (residential, industrial commercial) to aesthetic regulations. From google searches I conclude that this exists in the USA as well and runs under the name of aesthetic zoning. This regulates, for example, what color you may paint your house in certain zones.
Therefore it looks like it would be easy to incorporate a clause that states that exterior walls in zone xy can be painted by whomever wants to from a legal standpoint if the political will is there.

Also, one has to differentiate between walls that can be accessed from a public area such as a wall that directly borders a sidewalk (like most walls in urban areas) and walls that can not be such a most walls of your typical single family house. I´m not proposing to make tresspassing legal.

If you can access the wall from the sidewalk there is no tresspassing because you can paint the wall while standing on public space.

Allmost all aspects of zoning laws cause conflict between property owners and public interest. Maybe a property owner wants to build a six story building but can not because the regulations state that the maximum height are 5 stories. This directly goes against the interest of the owner and shows how people are not necessarily allowed to do what they want with their property.
Increased property values mean a larger tax bill.
Property owners - unless they are one of those hotels or restaurants - get jack from the money tourists spend.
Again - the people whose property is defaced get NOTHING but increased costs.
It also means higher income due to increased rent the owner takes from tenant.
Since when?

Here in the US it's associated with urban decay, gangs, decreased safety, and increased crime.
This is just the usual process of gentrification. In the beginning you´ve got a low income area. Rents are low. Students and arty farty people move in. Students and arty farty people are people who make graffiti. The area is now known as "cool" and has "flair". This on the one hand attracts richer people who want to live in a "cool" urban area with "flair. Also, the students get older, get high paying jobs but don´t necessarily move out. They now have the means to pay higher rents and the home owners take more money. The poorer population disappears.
Obviously this comes with some serious disadvantages because it drives out the poor population but like mentioned before it´s a wet dream for owners.

Now, we clearly disagree on the artistical value of graffiti. That´s fine, we don´t need consensus on that.
A more interesting aspect to me is the following. There is clearly conflict between people who like graffiti and people who don´t. There´s a significant demand for graffiti by a significant number of the population making it relevant to address. The current method of punishing people doesn´t seem to work as there is so much graffiti even though it is illegal.
Therefore I find it interesting to think about other methods to combat the conflict. I proposed a method consisting of accepting the fact that graffiti is here to stay and trying to profit form it, be it in a financial or social way.
Do you have a proposal to deal with it other than the current one? Do you think the current method is functional? Do you think that introducing more draconian laws will get rid of graffiti? How draconian are you willing to become in order to get rid of graffiti?
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Broomstick »

salm wrote:Do you have a proposal to deal with it other than the current one?
I think we should enforce the laws we currently have in my area, which includes prosecution in some cases.
Do you think the current method is functional?
I think there needs to be better compensation for property owners, or the government should pay for removal costs, possibly out of fines and labor provided by convicted graffiti "artists".
Do you think that introducing more draconian laws will get rid of graffiti?
We can't eliminate murder, rape, or robbery but that's no excuse to get rid of laws against them. The same applies to more minor crimes.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Broomstick »

salm wrote:Also, one has to differentiate between walls that can be accessed from a public area such as a wall that directly borders a sidewalk (like most walls in urban areas) and walls that can not be such a most walls of your typical single family house. I´m not proposing to make tresspassing legal.

If you can access the wall from the sidewalk there is no tresspassing because you can paint the wall while standing on public space.
The set up you describe, with walls bordering sidewalks, is less common in the US than in Europe simply because there was more available room in which to sprawl.

On the flip side, owners of buildings in the Chicago Loop, with their imported and highly polished marble veneers, special sidings, and the like would not appreciate them being modified without permission and cleaning paint off some of the surfaces would be very hard to do without damaging those surfaces and very expensive to clean up.
Allmost all aspects of zoning laws cause conflict between property owners and public interest. Maybe a property owner wants to build a six story building but can not because the regulations state that the maximum height are 5 stories. This directly goes against the interest of the owner and shows how people are not necessarily allowed to do what they want with their property.
Someone wanting to exceed height limits can apply for a zoning variance and make a case as to why they should be allowed an exception to the rule. Sometimes it's granted, sometimes it's not.

There have been communities that wanted to either paint a graffiti-like mural, or even allow a graffiti area such as you proposed (Chicago had a "graffiti wall" on the Loyola beach for many years, it may even still be there). Those, too, have to either comply with local zoning or ask for a variance.
Increased property values mean a larger tax bill.
Property owners - unless they are one of those hotels or restaurants - get jack from the money tourists spend.
Again - the people whose property is defaced get NOTHING but increased costs.
It also means higher income due to increased rent the owner takes from tenant.
That's assuming there are tenants and it's not the owner occupying the building.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Havok »

Broomstick wrote:
Do you think that introducing more draconian laws will get rid of graffiti?
We can't eliminate murder, rape, or robbery but that's no excuse to get rid of laws against them. The same applies to more minor crimes.
You really just glossed right over "draconian" there didn't you? :lol:
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Broomstick »

Not really.

There's a point at which punishment becomes over the top and no longer increases discouragement as the penalty goes up. Where, exactly, that point is reached is debatable.

Nowhere did I advocate "draconian" anything, salm brought that up. I think a little time behind bars is appropriate in some cases. Clearly, some other folks disagree.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Havok wrote:Again, show me the actual damage. If she just painted on rock with acrylics, there is nothing that says to me "prison term" no matter what anyone thinks of her ego or art.
Isn't this like saying you shouldn't get punished for shooting a gun at someone if you miss and don't actually hurt them? I mean, "show me the actual damage". I'm not saying she should go to federal prison for 10 years or anything like that, and I am all for flexible, non-draconian laws, but it feels like a pretty silly argument to just shrug and say, "The rocks are fine." Even if she didn't damage the cave paintings, the fact was she was engaging in an activity that had a very high risk of doing so. This is the sort of behavior that needs to be actively discouraged, and she should be punished accordingly. Again, I'm not saying this necessarily means prison term - I don't know enough about the law to know what the punishment can, will, or should be in this case. My only point is I think it's highly fallacious to argue about the punishment based on the fact that you don't think anything was actually hurt (which at this point we can't even prove one way or the other).

On a related but separate note, one of the major tenants of the National Park system is "leave no trace". The point of the system is to try and preserve an environment with as little human interference as possible. Even if you just go on their website, they basically say that your access to the parks is contingent entirely on the assumption that you will leave no trace. They only let people in trusting that they will not leave behind signs that they were there. Regardless of what you think the punishments should be for not doing so, the fact is that it is a basic violation of the number 1 rule of the park system. Even if you think the rocks will be fine, it's irrelevant. It's federally owned land that is only accessible to the public based on their observation of the rules laid out for said access. It's not public land in the sense that many state parks are; the government is entirely within their rights to close off a national park to the public. Hell, despite the name of the service, the government doesn't even treat National Parks AS parks in a legal sense, they treat them as monuments. If you spray-paint on the Washington Monument in Washington, D.C., do you expect to get away with it based on, "oh, well, those blocks of marble will be fine"? Same goes for anything within Yellowstone, Yosemite, wherever. They are not parks the same way the one down the street from you is.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Havok »

No, graffiti is NOTHING like shooting a gun at somebody you fucking blithering idiot.
And for the UMPTEENTH FUCKING TIME, I'm not advocating no punishment. Fine the shit out of her and make her clean up everything she did on her own dime. That is probably a months worth of punishment at the rate at which she seems to get around.

What I am fucking saying is that there is NO WAY painting on rocks, especially those that in a way belong to everyone, including her, needs to carry the same punishment that fucking rapists and people that DO shoot at other people get, which is prison time and a felony conviction, which has been advocated. It's ridiculous and knee jerk over kill.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Borgholio »

What I am fucking saying is that there is NO WAY painting on rocks, especially those that in a way belong to everyone, including her, needs to carry the same punishment that fucking rapists and people that DO shoot at other people get, which is prison time and a felony conviction, which has been advocated. It's ridiculous and knee jerk over kill.
I think most of us here agree with you. Broomstick and I feel that if there is any jail time involved, it is on the order of weeks or a month and not years. Plus I personally think a felony conviction is a bit much for what she did.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Lonestar »

Another Vandal caught who was kind enough to use social media to provide evidence for the courts.
When they approached the rider, he confessed: "I know what this is about and I am guilty."
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Havok wrote:No, graffiti is NOTHING like shooting a gun at somebody you fucking blithering idiot.
And for the UMPTEENTH FUCKING TIME, I'm not advocating no punishment. Fine the shit out of her and make her clean up everything she did on her own dime. That is probably a months worth of punishment at the rate at which she seems to get around.

What I am fucking saying is that there is NO WAY painting on rocks, especially those that in a way belong to everyone, including her, needs to carry the same punishment that fucking rapists and people that DO shoot at other people get, which is prison time and a felony conviction, which has been advocated. It's ridiculous and knee jerk over kill.
Did you even read my post? Because it sounds like you just read the first sentence, misinterpreted the point, and got your panties in a twist.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Havok »

I read it, I responded to the first part because of the monumental stupidity of the analogy and the way you were trying to twist what I have been saying.

And I would feel the same way about the Washington Monument or a subway train or a building. It's a piece of rock, metal, brick that can be cleaned up, mostly in an a few afternoons.

What happened to the fucking punishment fitting the crimes. Geezuz.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by Zixinus »

At the risk of a necro: Havok, the problem is that you are forgetting the other aspect of what determines what crime you are charged with: criminal intent (called actus reus as explained by this.

And there is no question that this woman has maxed the criminal intention meter: she knew excatly what she was doing and that it was wrong, she isn't clinically insane or on drugs (as far as we know), she has planned extensively what she did and planned it for a long time. As far as we know what she did was completely her idea, nobody asked her to do it and she had no reason why she needed to do it. She has brought with herself equipment specifically to do what she did. What's more, she has literately gone a great distance and payed a large sum to do what she did. She has even documented herself doing it!

The only redeeming factor in this that we know of is that she turned herself in (and shows remorse, of course, after the fact). But she only did this once it became obvious that the internet has noticed what she did and that there is no way that she can get away with it. It's very likely she only did what she did once a lawyer told her that she needs to do it if she hopes to avoid prison.

Whether the damage can be removed is immaterial. She is not a child and this isn't parents calculating how angry we should be because how much it costs us. What's important is what she did and why she did it.
For all we know the damage is permanent and the new paint has mixed with the ancient paint, requiring expensive restoration. And yes, the OP's linked article shows at least one example where she painted over the old painting, but she should be punished even if she carefully painted just next to them.

Look at the Nazca lines thread: Greenpeace damaged one just by walking around next to it. For all we know the paintings are still there only because nobody touched them. Just because something is old does not mean it is impervious to everything.

Finally, just because we consider them graffiti, does not mean that the people who made them would. In a pre-industrial culture and in especially a hunter-gatherer culture, getting together a paint-set is very, very hard work. Gathering, processing and purifying the paint pigments necessary (sometime for years if the pigment is rare enough) is not comparable to buying a few spraypaint cans at a convenience store for $5. The meaning and effort that went into it is therefore also no comparable. Native American culture does not need more of its few relics destroyed, lost or damaged.

So that's why people are saying that this stupid, stupid woman should get the book thrown at her. What's more the punishment isn't just what she needs to get but what the public needs to see, her punishment needs deterrence. She needs to have the book thrown at her and (potentially) go to prison because that's what the next buffoon emulating her actions needs to know. That buffoon may decide to use something that will not wash off and on something that is even more precious.
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Re: "Artist" vandalizes several western National Parks...

Post by TimothyC »

I Cast Necromancy for an update!
The National Park Service wrote: News Release Date: June 13, 2016
Contact: NPS Investigative Services Branch, (202) 379-4761

Update: Woman sentenced for vandalism in several National Park Service sites

The woman who defaced sites within several national parks in 2014 pleaded guilty today to seven misdemeanor counts of damaging government property. Casey Nocket, age 23, was ordered by a federal judge to serve two years of probation and 200 hours of community service. She is also banned from all lands administered by the National Park Service (NPS), US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and Army Corps of Engineers during her probation period.

An ISB Special Agent, aided by the ISB Intelligence Analyst, conducted the lengthy investigation, bringing forth a strong case to an Assistant US Attorney for prosecution. A hearing to determine the amount of restitution Nocket is required to pay will be held at a later date.

According to court documents, Nocket damaged rock formations within seven national parks over a 26-day period, drawing or painting on them using acrylic paints and markers. She posted numerous pictures of her drawings on her social media accounts. The parks are in four federal districts: the Eastern District of California, the District of Oregon, the District of Utah, and the District of Colorado.

Acting US Attorney Philip Talbert stated, "The defendant's defacement of multiple rock formations showed a lack of respect for the law and our shared national treasures. The National Park Service has worked hard to restore the rock formations to their natural state, completing clean-up efforts in five of the seven parks. They expect to complete cleanup efforts at Death Valley in the near future and at Crater Lake as weather permits."

"This case illustrates the important role that the public can play in identifying and sharing evidence of illegal behavior in parks," said Charles Cuvelier, chief of Law Enforcement, Security, and Emergency Services (LESES) for the NPS. "It is clear that the public cares deeply for the special places that the National Park Service represents, and the resolution of this case sends a message to those who would consider such inappropriate behavior going forward."

Nocket's acts of vandalism included:
  • Rocky Mountain National Park, September 12, 2014
  • Colorado National Monument, September 13, 2014
  • Canyonlands National Park, September 15, 2014
  • Zion National Park, September 17, 2014
  • Death Valley National Park, September 23, 2014
  • Yosemite National Park, October 2, 2014
  • Crater Lake National Park, October 7, 2014
If you see something suspicious in a National Park Service site, stay safe and tell us about it. You don't have to tell us who you are, but please tell us what you know:
  • Call our Tip Line at 888-653-0009
  • Submit an online Tip
  • Email us
  • Send us a Message on Facebook
The good news is that there is some punishment, and that's a lot of land she can't go on, which is a good thing.
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