Protest in Hong Kong

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7954
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Protest in Hong Kong

Post by ray245 »

An organiser of Hong Kong’s civil disobedience movement has urged thousands of citizens to keep up pro-democracy protests across the city until the government addresses their demands.

Crowds of demonstrators blocking key roads swelled again on Monday afternoon, despite an apparent step back by police, with others saying they planned to join the throng as soon as they finished work.

Police attempts to use teargas to clear huge protests from Admiralty and Central in downtown Hong Kong late on Sunday backfired, instead spurring more people to take to the streets, with numbers peaking in the tens of thousands. New protests sprang up in Causeway Bay and Mongkok, in Kowloon.

“What we have seen is spontaneous – without leadership, without prior organisation, of its own volition … a people’s movement. We simply want basic dignity. We simply want to be respected,” said lawmaker Alan Leong of the Civic party.

Parts of the financial hub, generally known for its orderliness, were paralysed by the protesters on Monday. Banks, schools and some businesses were closed. But in Central, businesses operated as usual and in Causeway Bay, tourists and shoppers made their way around the demonstrations.

The government announced on Monday morning that riot police had been taken off the streets – though a few were later seen on duty – as citizens had “mostly calmed down”. It urged people to unblock roads and disperse. Police later told a press conference they had used what they believed to be a minimal level of force.

Chan Kin-man, one of Occupy Central’s leaders, said Hong Kong residents should continue to protest as long as there was no risk of escalated force, pointing out that the chief executive of Hong Kong, Leung Chun-ying, had said police would not shoot at protesters or seek help from the People’s Liberation Army. But he told the South China Morning Post: “We’re worried that there are people infiltrating to cause trouble.”

Protests have been peaceful to date, with participants holding their hands in the air as they confronted police.

Hong Kong enjoys considerable autonomy under the “one country, two systems” framework and China has long promised universal suffrage for the election of the next chief executive in 2017. But protesters are furious that rules announced by Beijing will impose such tight controls on candidates that a democrat could not even stand. They see the decision as part of a broader attempt to tighten controls on the region.

The non-violent civil disobedience movement was expected to start on Wednesday, a public holiday. But it kicked off over the weekend after students who had been running class boycotts invaded the government compound at Admiralty, which police had blocked off.

The organisers spent months planning Occupy Central with Love and Peace, but it has now taken on a life and perhaps a name of its own. Some dubbed it “the umbrella revolution” in reference to the umbrellas that have sprung up over protesters’ heads each time they fear a teargas or pepper spray attack. Demonstrators are also equipped with masks, and hardware stores said they had sold out of goggles.

“This is a watershed,” said Hung Ho-fung of Johns Hopkins University, noting that mass protests in the past had occurred with police approval.

“This time people are using civil disobedience and setting up barricades. There’s also the disruptive aspect; in the past, they emphasised that demonstrations would not affect everyday life. This time they really don’t care. I really haven’t seen anything like this in Hong Kong history.”

But, he warned: “Beijing has put itself in a corner and I don’t think it can back down. I think it’s out of Beijing’s expectations that Hong Kong people would be so persistent and so provoked by the decision.”

In previous cases where protests against Chinese government plans have led to those plans being dropped – such as 2012’s plans for compulsory “national education” – the decisions have formally been made by the Hong Kong leadership. This time, the framework for reforms was announced by the standing committee for Beijing’s National People’s Congress, meaning Beijing is explicitly tied to it and cannot portray a shift as a decision by the Hong Kong government.

Hung predicted that they would use loyalists to mobilise the counter-argument, with people warning of the need to prevent chaos.

“That might gain ground over time. But people see very clearly that the chaos has been created by the government’s use of force,” he said.

In some parts of the city, commuters cheered protesters. But Agence France-Presse reported that there were angry confrontations in Mong Kok between the activists and people annoyed by the disruption.

The Hong Kong dollar fell to a six-month low when trading opened, and shares slipped to a three-month low.

More schools have gone on strike – students had already announced that last week’s class boycott was now an indefinite campaign – and the government decided to close schools in the Central, Wanchai and Western districts. Several banks closed branches and around 200 bus routes were suspended, the South China Morning Post reported. Civil servants were sent home early.

The government has cancelled plans for the annual firework display to celebrate China’s national holiday on Wednesday, when a surge in mainland visitors is expected.

Coca-Cola transport workers went on strike in support of the protests, as did some social workers.

Officials say 41 people, including police officers, have been injured since protests began and 78 arrested for offences including forcible entry into government premises, unlawful assembly and obstructing police.

Occupy Central and others appear to be prioritising the demand to oust Leung, the highly unpopular chief executive. That seems a more achievable outcome than a rolling back of the electoral changes although, since the protests have taken on a momentum of their own, uniting all those on the streets could prove difficult.

In a statement, Occupy Central said Leung’s refusal to enter direct talks with people had driven Hong Kong into a crisis of disorder, which would be defused by his resignation.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... e-withdraw

It will be interesting to see how China will further react. I doubt that China will give in to the protesters, and be hoping that the protest will eventually die out on its own.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

China didn't need to react harshly during the Wukan incident. Remember how some people were saying it was going to be Tiananmen all over again and then it didn't happen.

In this case they don't really need to directly clamp down on it just yet. In fact in August counter marches occurred with petition getting more signatures than the occupy movement.

My prediction, once the economy starts tanking the protests die down.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16294
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Gandalf »

Did the Chinese government state why they've passed this law?
mr friendly guy wrote:China didn't need to react harshly during the Wukan incident. Remember how some people were saying it was going to be Tiananmen all over again and then it didn't happen.
I don't think we'll see another Tiananmen. It's easier to just monitor/censor the internet, and then arrest as needed. It's the same lesson the US got from Vietnam; don't let people see.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

mr friendly guy wrote:China didn't need to react harshly during the Wukan incident. Remember how some people were saying it was going to be Tiananmen all over again and then it didn't happen.

In this case they don't really need to directly clamp down on it just yet. In fact in August counter marches occurred with petition getting more signatures than the occupy movement.

My prediction, once the economy starts tanking the protests die down.
Economy tanks, rich poor gap widens... more protests rather?
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:China didn't need to react harshly during the Wukan incident. Remember how some people were saying it was going to be Tiananmen all over again and then it didn't happen.

In this case they don't really need to directly clamp down on it just yet. In fact in August counter marches occurred with petition getting more signatures than the occupy movement.

My prediction, once the economy starts tanking the protests die down.
Economy tanks, rich poor gap widens... more protests rather?
That would depend on whether the protesters are rich, middle class or poor. Given how a lot of the anti mainland sentiment look down on Mainlanders as too poor (likening them to locusts) I am willing to bet these protesters aren't "poor" by HK standards.

And yes I am aware some Mainlanders are not liked because they're too rich. You just can't win with some people. So no point trying to appease them.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

mr friendly guy wrote: That would depend on whether the protesters are rich, middle class or poor. Given how a lot of the anti mainland sentiment look down on Mainlanders as too poor (likening them to locusts) I am willing to bet these protesters aren't "poor" by HK standards.

And yes I am aware some Mainlanders are not liked because they're too rich. You just can't win with some people. So no point trying to appease them.
Doesn't Hong Kong have like one of the worst Gini coefficients around, with some of the poor living in apartments that are pathetically small? If the push came the shove and a whole lot of these people are out of cash, heaven knows what might happen.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by K. A. Pital »

If billionaires cannot uphold the order in what is one of the well-known billionaire havens, well... The question is, can they uphold the order anywhere?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

Browsing another message board someone pointed out most of HK is Pro Beijing, and a quick glance at the 2012 elections that was certainly true back then.
The election was marked with the record of 287 candidates. 67 lists with a total of 216 candidates contested the 35 geographical constituencies, while 53 candidates contested in the traditional functional constituencies, in which 16 of them returned to LegCo uncontested.[17]

The largest pro-democracy party, the Democratic Party, suffered the largest defeat since its creation in 1994, while the radical democrats League of Social Democrats and the newly formed People Power doubled their votes. Despite the addition of five new geographical constituency seats, the pan-democrats won one seat fewer than in the 2008 poll; infighting within the camp was blamed.[18] Audrey Eu and Tanya Chan, the incumbent Civic Party legislators, placed second on the lists in Hong Kong Island and New Territories West both received over 70,000 votes, far more than other lists, but still were not reelected.[19] (see 2012 Hong Kong legislative election in Hong Kong Island and New Territories West)

The Beijing-loyalist Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong remained the largest party, winning 13 seats in total. All the lists in the geographical constituencies were elected as they split their candidates into several lists to avoid wasting votes under the largest remainder method.[20]

Due to the elections results, Albert Ho, the leader of the Democratic Party, resigned as the leader, citing failure to present a united front for the pan-democratic camp, failure to retain seats from the previous elections, and infighting between pro-democracy parties. Miriam Lau, the leader of the Liberal Party, also resigned as leader, citing her failure to win a seat in this election and a need for new leadership in the party.[21]
So now some new predictions
a. Beijing will organise some counter marches. Expect criticism that the big bad Chinese government is manipulating things, but when the FREEDOM get support from foreign nations, including ones who were quite happy to ignore democracy when it suited them cough Ukraine cough expect the drums of democracy to beat.

b. Big news agencies like BBC, CNN etc will totally fail to mention about the size of the opposing marches (when they occur).
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

Australian Broadcasting corporation has some interesting tidbit

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-02/h ... ng/5786656
Last week's poll from the Chinese University of Hong Kong showed 46.3 per cent of the city's residents did not support the Occupy Central campaign, while 31.3 per cent supported it, most of them the city's youth.
A quick glance at wiki shows that the Chinese university of HK was founded by Anti-communists and in modern times has a policy of maintaining political neutrality. So it seems almost 50% more locals reject the Occupy movement. However ABC is the only western news source I can find which mentions this. Hmm.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

mr friendly guy wrote:Australian Broadcasting corporation has some interesting tidbit

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-02/h ... ng/5786656
Last week's poll from the Chinese University of Hong Kong showed 46.3 per cent of the city's residents did not support the Occupy Central campaign, while 31.3 per cent supported it, most of them the city's youth.
A quick glance at wiki shows that the Chinese university of HK was founded by Anti-communists and in modern times has a policy of maintaining political neutrality. So it seems almost 50% more locals reject the Occupy movement. However ABC is the only western news source I can find which mentions this. Hmm.
It's all "me against them" nonsense now. So obviously most of them want to stick to the glorious "FREEDOM" narrative?
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
Siege
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4108
Joined: 2004-12-11 12:35pm

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Siege »

OP wrote:... rules announced by Beijing will impose such tight controls on candidates that a democrat could not even stand...
Question time:
1) What controls has "Beijing" imposed;
2) How do these controls rule out a 'democrat';
3) What does 'democrat' even mean in this instance;
4) Who are these demonstrators, who's in charge right now, and what do the demonstrators desire to affect?

In the last year I've heard this 'democrats protest against oppression' line everywhere from Donetsk to Cairo and it means different things in different situations. By itself it doesn't mean a goddamn thing unless you know what the 'democrats' actually aim to achieve versus their so-called oppressors, so can someone please fill me in on that?
Image
SDN World 2: The North Frequesuan Trust
SDN World 3: The Sultanate of Egypt
SDN World 4: The United Solarian Sovereignty
SDN World 5: San Dorado
There'll be a bodycount, we're gonna watch it rise
The folks at CNN, they won't believe their eyes
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

@Fingolfin_Noldor

Well yeah. I saw Vox on one hand admits that under UK rule HK was NOT a democracy and then explaining what China is offering and then in the same breath accuse Beijing of weakening HK's democracy.

Funny thing is, what Beijing is offering more than what it had under UK rule in terms of democracy. One can make a case that China should offer more, however you cannot make a case that its weakening HK democracy when it has actually expanded it. This FREEDOMTM narrative is dishonest, and its about as transparent as the "why do you hate America" rhetort.

Funny thing is, Professor Kerry Brown, executive director of the China Studies Centre and Professor of Chinese Politics at the University of Sydney has the following to say about China's actions.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-30/b ... ng/5778050
The highly abstract commitment in the Basic Law - the de facto constitution agreed at the time on which Hong Kong has been governed as a Special Administrative Region over the last 17 years - to consultations and then some form of extended franchise for elections of the chief executive after 2017 was a promise, it is now clear, that the Chinese government intended to observe with minimal commitment.

Their final announcement earlier this year that a small committee of screened people would then approve two or three candidates to stand in 2017 seemed like the weakest of weak outcomes.

While not in violation of the Basic Law, it certainly showed little imagination and a Beijing leadership that prizes control over everything else.
Beijing has stuck to the letter of the law, although it might have violated the spirit although the original agreement was somewhat abstract and allowed wiggle room.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Siege wrote:
OP wrote:... rules announced by Beijing will impose such tight controls on candidates that a democrat could not even stand...
Question time:
1) What controls has "Beijing" imposed;
2) How do these controls rule out a 'democrat';
3) What does 'democrat' even mean in this instance;
4) Who are these demonstrators, who's in charge right now, and what do the demonstrators desire to affect?

In the last year I've heard this 'democrats protest against oppression' line everywhere from Donetsk to Cairo and it means different things in different situations. By itself it doesn't mean a goddamn thing unless you know what the 'democrats' actually aim to achieve versus their so-called oppressors, so can someone please fill me in on that?
I'm not 100% familiar with what they want and what they even plan to do with their democratic rights. But Hong Kong itself has some deep seated issues stemming from the hyper-rich poor gap and the fact that housing has gotten more expensive over the last few years.

There are people who blame mainlander Chinese for all this, since the rich Chinese have been crossing into Hong Kong and snapping up property and driving up housing prices in a place where housing is already ridiculously expensive. People feel like they are being priced out. Throw in some racism and yeah.

So along came this Chief Executive with a spotty record (like an illegally dug basement and whatever. I am not sure if I am mixing things up because his opponent had a similarly spotty record) and some view him as a crony of Beijing.

Honestly, I don't think they even know what they can achieve with their democratic freedom, because no matter what they do, the autonomy of the Chief Executive will always be constrained by Beijing, regardless whether or not they have the freedom to vote for the CE. Maybe there's some wishful thinking or whatever.

This bit of nonsense will just be futile at best. Never mind that Hong Kong is going to be more and more dependent on the Mainland. Hong Kong isn't irreplaceable.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Guardsman Bass »

The "counter-protests" have started against Occupy in the city. That's pretty much a favorite of authoritarian regimes everywhere - grab/pay a bunch of loyalists to show up and start wailing on protestors instead of bringing out the police force to do it.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by fgalkin »

Guardsman Bass wrote:The "counter-protests" have started against Occupy in the city. That's pretty much a favorite of authoritarian regimes everywhere - grab/pay a bunch of loyalists to show up and start wailing on protestors instead of bringing out the police force to do it.
Except in this case, the loyalists outnumber Occupy by almost 1.5-1

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by fgalkin »

Oh look, the "security forces" are protecting the protesters from the people who actually live there

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stor ... sters.html
Pushing and yelling, hundreds of Hong Kong residents have tried to force pro-democracy activists from the streets they are occupying as tensions rose in the weeklong protests that have shut down parts of the city.

The protesters said that if authorities do not act to protect the unarmed, peaceful demonstrators, they would retract an agreement to hold talks with the city government as proposed by Hong Kong's leader, Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying.

'Stop the violence or we call off the talks,' the groups of students and other activists said in a statement.

The scuffles in Kowloon's crowded Mong Kok district were the most chaotic since police used tear gas and pepper spray on Sunday in an unsuccessful attempt to disperse protesters pushing for greater electoral reforms.

Police were hard-pressed to keep order as the two sides tussled in a tense standoff.

The visibly older people trying to force the vastly outnumbered protesters out were yelling, shoving and at times trying to drag the younger protesters away.

The democracy activists linked arms and held hands as they tried to stand their ground against the huge crowd.

Police formed cordons and escorted some of the protesters away as hundreds of onlookers chanted, 'Go home!'.

In Causeway Bay, a major shopping area that has also been occupied by protesters, groups of young men in face masks were forced away from the protesters by police.

Hong Kong's top civil servant, Chief Secretary Carrie Lam, said on Friday she had begun organising the talks with the protesters, who have continued their sit-ins after Leung rejected their calls to resign.

'I am indeed very concerned about the clashes we have seen in the streets,' Lam said.

'Sentiments are running high and there is a high chance of conflict on the streets,' she said.

'So I am urging protesters who have been occupying parts of the territory to consider retreating... so that the police can restore law and order.'

The police were linking arms in an attempt to keep those agitating to get the area cleared of protesters from pushing into their ranks.

The protesters and many onlookers were filming the confrontations; one man tried to grab a video camera from a demonstrator's hand.

'I would like to appeal to members of the public that they should observe the laws of Hong Kong when they are expressing their views,' police spokesman Steve Hui said when asked about the confrontation in Mong Kok, a working class area far from the main protest site in downtown Hong Kong, the Admiralty area near the territory's government headquarters.

Benny Tai, leader of the broader pro-democracy movement Occupy Central With Love and Peace issued a public call for all protesters to shift back to Admiralty where they began their protests last weekend.

He said the group was confident they could guarantee the protesters' safety if they moved back to that area.

Witnesses said the scuffles broke out when citizens began to dismantle the tents and barricades put up in the streets by the demonstrators who are demanding the government implement universal suffrage in municipal elections in 2017.

While calm was quickly restored in Causeway Bay, in Mong Kok shouting matches broke out which threatened to escalate into physical violence, the witnesses said.

The demonstrators, mostly students, formed lines to keep back the angry crowds while police also formed human chains to separate the two sides.

One of the students, who identified herself as Cynthia, said the citizens causing the trouble were paid government agitators brought in from outside.

'They're people paid by the government. They're not from here (because) they don't speak Cantonese', which is the dialect spoken in Hong Kong, she said.

Some who are sympathetic to the protesters' demands for wider political reforms complained the police were not doing enough to protect the demonstrators.

'We saw people with no uniforms in Causeway Bay and Mong Kok attack protesters and take away their belongings,' said Cyd Ho, vice-chairwoman of the Labour Party.

'Police have the duty to safeguard peaceful demonstrations by Hong Kong citizens,' Ho said.

'If police do not intervene this sets a dangerous precedent ... that if people are unhappy with protesters they can attack them with impunity.'

But some Hong Kong residents complained that the protests were undermining their livelihoods.

'It affected my company, a perfume business, to deliver goods in the area,' said Ken Lai in the bustling Causeway Bay neighbourhood.

'I really dislike the fact that they occupied so many areas, all scattered around the city. I'm a Hong Konger too. The occupiers don't represent all of us.'
- See more at: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stor ... R01Fs.dpuf
Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I am really not sure what they hope for. Hong Kong has many fundamental problems that won't be solved even if they gain greater autonomy. Greater autonomy simply means Beijing might even have bigger leeway to just buy up politicians and completely mess up the "democracy", as if that isn't the case now.

Hong Kong is a country with lots of money slushing around in various coffers. The people holding the levers of power are completely loaded and no amount of idealism is going to change that. You are looking at a plutocracy that makes the US looked idyllic in comparison.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

Martin Jacques is pretty pro China, however he does state what some people in this thread are wondering. How much of it is from anti Mainland sentiment which includes the fact that the Mainlanders are no longer poor country bumpkins.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -democracy
China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy
Protesters cry democracy but most are driven by dislocation and resentment at mainlanders’ success

The upheaval sweeping Hong Kong is more complicated than on the surface it might appear. Protests have erupted over direct elections to be held in three years’ time; democracy activists claim that China’s plans will allow it to screen out the candidates it doesn’t want.

It should be remembered, however, that for 155 years until its handover to China in 1997, Hong Kong was a British colony, forcibly taken from China at the end of the first opium war. All its 28 subsequent governors were appointed by the British government. Although Hong Kong came, over time, to enjoy the rule of law and the right to protest, under the British it never enjoyed even a semblance of democracy. It was ruled from 6,000 miles away in London. The idea of any kind of democracy was first introduced by the Chinese government. In 1990 the latter adopted the Basic Law, which included the commitment that in 2017 the territory’s chief executive would be elected by universal suffrage; it also spelt out that the nomination of candidates would be a matter for a nominating committee.

This proposal should be seen in the context of what was a highly innovative – and, to westerners, completely unfamiliar – constitutional approach by the Chinese. The idea of “one country, two systems” under which Hong Kong would maintain its distinctive legal and political system for 50 years. Hong Kong would, in these respects, remain singularly different from the rest of China, while at the same time being subject to Chinese sovereignty. In contrast, the western view has always embraced the principle of “one country, one system” – as, for example, in German unification. But China is more a civilisation-state than a nation-state: historically it would have been impossible to hold together such a vast country without allowing much greater flexibility. Its thinking – “one civilisation, many systems” – was shaped by its very different history.

In the 17 years since the handover, China has, whatever the gainsayers might suggest, overwhelmingly honoured its commitment to the principle of one country, two systems. The legal system remains based on English law, the rule of law prevails, and the right to demonstrate, as we have seen so vividly in recent days, is still very much intact. The Chinese meant what they offered. Indeed, it can reasonably be argued that they went to extremes in their desire to be unobtrusive: sotto voce might be an apt way of describing China’s approach to Hong Kong. At the time of the handover, and in the three years I lived in Hong Kong from 1998, it was difficult to identify any visible signs of Chinese rule: I recall seeing just one Chinese flag.

Notwithstanding this, Hong Kong – and its relationship with China – was in fact changing rapidly. Herein lies a fundamental reason for the present unrest: the growing sense of dislocation among a section of Hong Kong’s population. During the 20 years or so prior to the handover, the territory enjoyed its golden era – not because of the British but because of the Chinese. In 1978 Deng Xiaoping embarked on his reform programme, and China began to grow rapidly. It was still, however, a relatively closed society. Hong Kong was the beneficiary – it became the entry point to China, and as a result attracted scores of multinational companies and banks that wanted to gain access to the Chinese market. Hong Kong got rich because of China. It also fed an attitude of hubris and arrogance. The Hong Kong Chinese came to enjoy a much higher standard of living than the mainlanders. They looked down on the latter as poor, ignorant and uncouth peasants, as greatly their inferior. They preferred – up to a point – to identify with westerners rather than mainlanders, not because of democracy (the British had never allowed them any) but primarily because of money and the status that went with it.

Much has changed since 1997. The Chinese economy has grown many times, the standard of living of the Chinese likewise. If you want to access the Chinese market nowadays, why move to Hong Kong when you can go straight to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Chengdu and a host of other major cities? Hong Kong has lost its role as the gateway to China. Where previously Hong Kong was China’s unrivalled financial centre, now it is increasingly dwarfed by Shanghai. Until recently, Hong Kong was by far China’s largest port: now it has been surpassed by Shanghai and Shenzhen, and Guangzhou will shortly overtake it.

Two decades ago westerners comprised the bulk of Hong Kong’s tourists, today mainlanders account for the overwhelming majority, many of them rather more wealthy than most Hong Kong Chinese. Likewise, an increasing number of mainlanders have moved to the territory – which is a growing source of resentment. If China needed Hong Kong in an earlier period, this is no longer nearly as true as it was. On the contrary, without China, Hong Kong would be in deep trouble.

Understandably, many Hong Kong Chinese are struggling to come to terms with these new realities. They are experiencing a crisis of identity and a sense of displacement. They know their future is inextricably bound up with China but that is very different from embracing the fact. Yet there is no alternative: China is the future of Hong Kong.

All these issues, in a most complex way, are being played out in the present arguments over universal suffrage. Hong Kong is divided. About half the population support China’s proposals on universal suffrage, either because they think they are a step forward or because they take the pragmatic view that they will happen anyway. The other half is opposed. A relatively small minority of these have never really accepted Chinese sovereignty. Anson Chan, the former head of the civil service under Chris Patten, and Jimmy Lai, a prominent businessman, fall into this category, and so do some of the Democrats. Then there is a much larger group, among them many students, who oppose Beijing’s plans for more idealistic reasons.

One scenario can be immediately discounted. China will not accept the election of a chief executive hostile to Chinese rule. If the present unrest continues, then a conceivable backstop might be to continue indefinitely with the status quo, which, from the point of view of democratic change, both in Hong Kong and China, would be a retrograde step. More likely is that the Chinese government will persist with its proposals, perhaps with minor concessions, and anticipate that the opposition will slowly abate. This remains the most likely scenario.

An underlying weakness of Chinese rule has nevertheless been revealed by these events. One of the most striking features of Hong Kong remains the relative absence of a mainland political presence. The Chinese have persisted with what can best be described as a hands-off approach. Their relationship to the administration is either indirect or behind the scenes. Strange as it may seem, the Chinese are not involved in the cut and thrust of political argument. They will need to find more effective ways of making their views clear and arguing their case – not in Beijing but in Hong Kong.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Welf
Padawan Learner
Posts: 417
Joined: 2012-10-03 11:21am

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Welf »

I wondered how long it would take till the demonstrators would be labelled as (somewhat) racist to further legitimize them. But that seems more of an secondary argument and they focus on the class war aspect. Nicely done.

Just out of curiosity, how long till the people of Hong Kong are allowed to complain about lack of democracy? A few decades or centuries?
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

Welf wrote:I wondered how long it would take till the demonstrators would be labelled as (somewhat) racist to further legitimize them. But that seems more of an secondary argument and they focus on the class war aspect. Nicely done.
This open discrimination was well known long before the Occupy movement. Oh and when I say open, I mean they actually publish racist adverts in the newspaper.

The other reason why people might think this is so, is because some anti PRC protesters previously wave British flags while complaining about the lack of democracy in HK, apparently not once realising the blatant contradiction given that the British governor was NOT democratically elected and was appointed from a faraway capital, which is even more undemocratic than what China is proposing to do. So it seems pro British sentiment outweighs pro democracy sentiments. Because you know, democracy has never ever been used as a smoke screen for something else, usually geopolitical advantage.
Welf wrote: Just out of curiosity, how long till the people of Hong Kong are allowed to complain about lack of democracy? A few decades or centuries?
How about the same length of time they didn't complain about it under British rule? :D Jokes aside...

Or how long till democracy wankers realise trying to force democracy onto others who are reluctant * isn't a good idea ever since, say the Peloponnesian war.

Edit - how long until Welf realises that the people of HK includes those anti occupy forces who kind of outnumber their opponents. Or don't they count. :D

* given that it appears that the anti occupy forces outnumber their opponents by almost 50% and in the last few elections Pro Beijing forces kind of won.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

mr friendly guy wrote:This open discrimination was well known long before the Occupy movement. Oh and when I say open, I mean they actually publish racist adverts in the newspaper.

The other reason why people might think this is so, is because some anti PRC protesters previously wave British flags while complaining about the lack of democracy in HK, apparently not once realising the blatant contradiction given that the British governor was NOT democratically elected and was appointed from a faraway capital, which is even more undemocratic than what China is proposing to do. So it seems pro British sentiment outweighs pro democracy sentiments. Because you know, democracy has never ever been used as a smoke screen for something else, usually geopolitical advantage.
You know, I won't be surprised if this is rooted in some "preference for white culture" thingy that goes about some circles in former colonial countries such as Singapore.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
Welf
Padawan Learner
Posts: 417
Joined: 2012-10-03 11:21am

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Welf »

mr friendly guy wrote:This open discrimination was well known long before the Occupy movement. Oh and when I say open, I mean they actually publish racist adverts in the newspaper.

The other reason why people might think this is so, is because some anti PRC protesters previously wave British flags while complaining about the lack of democracy in HK, apparently not once realising the blatant contradiction given that the British governor was NOT democratically elected and was appointed from a faraway capital, which is even more undemocratic than what China is proposing to do. So it seems pro British sentiment outweighs pro democracy sentiments. Because you know, democracy has never ever been used as a smoke screen for something else, usually geopolitical advantage.
So faced with current issues some people start to idealize the past? Shocking.

Also, if you get past the smugness, there is quite a difference. You need to look past the labels that are used. When they say "democracy" they mean "a government that will act in our interest". London was a far away capital with not much incentive in changing how the place was run. And it guaranteed the people who moved there what they most wanted, stability and wealth.
Beijing however does have an interest in changing how Hong Kong is run. And for the younger generation those changes will likely not be for their benefit.
mr friendly guy wrote:How about the same length of time they didn't complain about it under British rule? :D Jokes aside...

Or how long till democracy wankers realise trying to force democracy onto others who are reluctant * isn't a good idea ever since, say the Peloponnesian war.
Yeah, I can imagine how the streets will be covered in blood if Beijing doesn't choose the candidates and instead the people there will choose it. It will make brother murder brother.
mr friendly guy wrote:Edit - how long until Welf realises that the people of HK includes those anti occupy forces who kind of outnumber their opponents. Or don't they count. :D

* given that it appears that the anti occupy forces outnumber their opponents by almost 50% and in the last few elections Pro Beijing forces kind of won.
Because that is how it works: first election then you check the results and know what you are allowed to publicly demand. And even more so if the election was "kind of" won. In a system that is not democratic. After a major change of the political system was announced.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by mr friendly guy »

Welf wrote: So faced with current issues some people start to idealize the past? Shocking.
Way to address the point that idolising British past actions is inconsistent with democracy, therefore its suspect that democracy is the predominant reason behind their motivations. Oh wait you didn't address the point. Unless handwaving away something is an argument now.
Also, if you get past the smugness, there is quite a difference. You need to look past the labels that are used.
Yes how dare I use the terms as they are commonly understood. I am clearly a bad bad man. Tell you what, next time I start losing an argument, I will just say when I use the term "X" I really mean "Y" even though most people use the former meaning. Then sprout some line about needing to look past the labels. Gotcha.
When they say "democracy" they mean "a government that will act in our interest". London was a far away capital with not much incentive in changing how the place was run. And it guaranteed the people who moved there what they most wanted, stability and wealth.
Beijing however does have an interest in changing how Hong Kong is run. And for the younger generation those changes will likely not be for their benefit.
I could ask you to justify how Beijing will affect HK's wealth and stability negatively given their performance in those areas, but that would be just a side track. The more pertinent point is, how do you know what you claim, especially when the pro democracy side could simply say "look we really want a government that will act in our interest moreso than the right to choose a leader" or "if Beijing just acted in our interest, we wouldn't care about the right to choose the government," but have chosen not to. In fact they harp upon the right to choose leaders.

If what you say is truly want they haven't bothered to say it, which means its likely you putting words in their mouth.
Welf wrote:
Yeah, I can imagine how the streets will be covered in blood if Beijing doesn't choose the candidates and instead the people there will choose it. It will make brother murder brother.
Let me guess how this strawman came about. You read my statement about forcing democracy onto the others has had negative consequences since the Peloponnesian war, and instead of reading is a jibe against people who fail to learn the lessons of history, you somehow interpreted as saying that it will lead to the blood bath that was the Pleoponnesian war. Good grief.
Welf wrote: Because that is how it works: first election then you check the results and know what you are allowed to publicly demand. And even more so if the election was "kind of" won. In a system that is not democratic. After a major change of the political system was announced.
Er, that's not addressing my jibe that when you say "people of HK" in your original statement its phrased to exclude those who disagree with you.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: You know, I won't be surprised if this is rooted in some "preference for white culture" thingy that goes about some circles in former colonial countries such as Singapore.
That thought has also occurred to me although very few will actually come out and say it unlike that idiot warmonger, er I mean Nobel Prize winner Liu Xiaobo.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Welf wrote:So faced with current issues some people start to idealize the past? Shocking.

Also, if you get past the smugness, there is quite a difference. You need to look past the labels that are used. When they say "democracy" they mean "a government that will act in our interest". London was a far away capital with not much incentive in changing how the place was run. And it guaranteed the people who moved there what they most wanted, stability and wealth.
Beijing however does have an interest in changing how Hong Kong is run. And for the younger generation those changes will likely not be for their benefit.
Take a hint. Without Chinese money, there would be no Hong Kong. Hong Kong could easily be replaced by any of the big ports along the east coast and Shanghai. The younger generation have absolutely no choice in this matter.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Pelranius
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3539
Joined: 2006-10-24 11:35am
Location: Around and about the Beltway

Re: Protest in Hong Kong

Post by Pelranius »

It's particularly ridiculous how the protesters choking off the streets in Mong Kok wanted police protection against angry locals (it's like an illegal betting parlor operating calling the police in on a cheating patron).

If they held a poll tomorrow and a majority of the Hong Kong population voted to end the protests, I wonder what the protesters would say?
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
Post Reply