What Black Parents Tell Their Sons About the Police

[TheFeniX]

It's easy: you don't worry about it. Because it's obvious they got the right man because innocent people don't get arrested and don't get interrogated. Obviously only guilty people would confess, even when subjected to a situation where a normal person would confess to being Mickey Mouse given enough time.

To be serious though: the only way to stop this is to not let police conduct any kind of interrogation without a lawyers present and/or cameras rolling uninterrupted during the entire interrogation and said tapes being immediately available to the defense. Any case where this doesn't happen: whole thing thrown out and officers involved charged with tampering with evidence.

Additionally, make sure officers routinely inform the suspect they can (and should) retain the services of a lawyer and that (if they aren't actually under arrest) they can leave any time they want. Officers who fail to do this get fired, or worse. If a person feels their innocence is enough of a defense at that point, they can then make an informed decision.

Confessions (along with witness testimony) have way too much power in the American Justice system. Once you've admitted guilt, there's plenty of cases were judges and prosecutors (and even jurors) don't give any fucks about rights violations, threats, or actual evidence, because only a guilty person would confess to a crime... in fantasy land.

[Darth Yan]

There's other problems too (prosecutors sometimes fail to turn over evidence because they think "eh that's their problem") or they want to maintain their conviction rate.

Another thing that people don't want to acknowledge is that you can actually convince innocent people they really did it (Martin Tankliff, Jesse Miskelley); cracked of all places pointed out how the reid technique was effective enough to convince innocent people to confess without being brutal.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

If it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that police or prosecutors hid exculpatory evidence or otherwise abused the system and an innocent person served time because of it, they should be sentenced to the equivalent amount of time that their victim was confined. That would both be just and cause prosecutorial abuses to vanish overnight.

[Mr. Coffee]

Seriously, can we just go ahead and make a "How to interact with American Law Enforcement" sticky thread already? Between Hav, KS and the other Board LEOs, myself, and others we should be able to come up with a damn good set of guidelines. Then when threads like this start, a Mod can flush it to HOS, link to the "How To Deal With American Law Enforcement" thread, and we can all save time and energy.

[Alferd Packer]

HOW TO DEAL WITH POLICE:

Don't.

/thread


But seriously, it's a good idea. I feel like we've been over this particular topic enough, but it is, unfortunately, going to to keep coming up in the news.

[Havok]

Seriously, can we just go ahead and make a "How to interact with American Law Enforcement" sticky thread already?

Not a bad idea really. It would be a nice companion to the police abuse thread.

Between Hav, KS and the other Board LEOs, myself, and others we should be able to come up with a damn good set of guidelines. Then when threads like this start, a Mod can flush it to HOS, link to the "How To Deal With American Law Enforcement" thread, and we can all save time and energy.

I mean, I'm not an expert, but I certainly am in a different segment of society than I'd say 99%* of the rest of the board. I literally deal with cops all the time either through my job or my life choices... in many different ways and aspects. I'd contribute.

*No pun intended.

[Channel72]

This entire thread has devolved into boring police-bashing based on nothing but personal experience and anecdotes. I've had mostly positive experiences with the cops so far (disclaimer: I'm white), so I don't know what to make of all this.

For some actual fucking stats and evidence rather than the endless blathering anecdotes posted here, here's a good report from the CATO institute:

www.policemisconduct.net/statistics/2010-annual-report/

So, the conclusion is basically that it's difficult to say whether police misconduct is generally increasing (the national average has decreased a bit, in fact). I also note that New York has a relatively low rate of police misconduct, which probably accounts for my positive experiences. The highest rate of police misconduct seems to be found in the South (no surprise there), notably in Louisiana, Missouri (surprise surprise) and West Virginia. Although, the report mentions the problem that it is of course difficult to ascertain how many instances of misconduct are unreported.

It's telling that places with more multi-racial police forces (like on the East Coast) have less misconduct.

[Channel72]

I'd also speculate that high-profile police forces, like the LAPD, NYPD, Chicago PD etc. are much more professional, and have much less incidents of misconduct despite the larger population numbers. This is because the Police Chiefs and department heads of these forces are under insane political pressure. I mean, the mayors of these cities are potential Presidential candidates sometimes, for fuck's sake. That obviously doesn't mean these forces have a clean record (LAPD and NYPD have historically been hotbeds of corruption), but compared to the rate of misconduct in random Southern towns, these guys are pretty professional.

I mean, at this point the NYPD is basically a para-military organization. They're armed to the teeth, they often carry military-grade equipment (M-16 rifles), have anti-terrorist training, and regularly train with Homeland Security, the National Guard, and other military organizations. However, the rate of police misconduct is very low compared to Louisiana, Missouri and West Virginia, where most precincts are low-profile and regulated entirely by the local Joe McSheriff.

[Simon_Jester]

Depends.

The rate of the NYPD shooting random innocent people, or arresting random people for the crime of standing on the sidewalk in a suspicious manner... hard to say how that compares

The thing about professionalism is that all it really does is ensure the professionals won't do anything that their bosses strongly disapprove of. If the bosses don't care if the occasional black guy gets shot for holding his cell phone while standing in the wrong place, and actively encourage the police to trawl poor neighborhoods and arrest everyone who looks at them funny in hopes of picking up a few hookers and people who didn't show up to a traffic court hearing...

All the professionalism in the world won't prevent police misconduct in that situation. Indeed, the random Southern hick might commit less misconduct because he doesn't actually stand to gain anything from harassing people who don't urgently need harassing. Whereas if the NYPD guy needs to find three bail-skippers and a hooker every week to make a quota set for him on his "professional" evaluation, then he's going to arrest as many people as it takes to accomplish that goal.

[Channel72]

The rate of the NYPD shooting random innocent people, or arresting random people for the crime of standing on the sidewalk in a suspicious manner... hard to say how that compares

I'm not sure why you think this wouldn't mostly correlate with complaints about police misconduct. Obviously, something is happening in West Virginia and Missouri that is causing many people to complain about the police. So either, this same thing is happening to a much lesser extent on the Northern East Coast, or for some reason people on the Northern East Coast don't complain as much.

I find it really counter-intuitive to imagine that East Coast people for some reason don't complain as much.

[Zixinus]

On the topic of dealing with the police, may I be apologized for plugging in an illustrated guide that gives you advice on this very topic? Among other things, like criminal law and such. The current one ,as of posting, actually gives a quick-guide to what to do if you are in a situation where you are a suspect and they might use something you say as evidence against you (quick hint: if you were just told your rights tell them you want to invoke your right to stay silent and the right a lawyer as soon as possible).

It talks about criminal laws and the current chapter that just finished was about self-incrimination. Most of the stuff is probably familiar with someone who has to deal with hostile police all the time (such as: when the police ask you whether they can search your vehicle during a traffic stop, they aren't being polite they are actually requesting permission and you can say "no").

As far as "how to deal with the police", I think it is relevant. It is made by an actual lawyer, so the stuff isn't second-hand.

[Simon_Jester]

The rate of the NYPD shooting random innocent people, or arresting random people for the crime of standing on the sidewalk in a suspicious manner... hard to say how that compares

I'm not sure why you think this wouldn't mostly correlate with complaints about police misconduct. Obviously, something is happening in West Virginia and Missouri that is causing many people to complain about the police. So either, this same thing is happening to a much lesser extent on the Northern East Coast, or for some reason people on the Northern East Coast don't complain as much.

I find it really counter-intuitive to imagine that East Coast people for some reason don't complain as much.

What I mean is that I literally do not know the statistics. Does the NYPD shoot more random innocent people per capita than the Ferguson police? I do not know.

As to the reasons why you don't get widespread constant protests against the NYPD and its own special methods of trawling for offenders... I can't comment. Again, I don't know enough. Maybe it's because it's less bad than I think; maybe it's because the socioeconomic position of the target population makes it hard for them to protest effectively.

[Havok]

I find it awesome that in Channel72's rant about anecdotes and actual fucking stats that the CATO report has a link with the tag line "Have you seen a credible story about police misconduct that we missed?", y'know asking for endless blathering anecdotes.

I also am reminded of the fact that in order to gather police misconduct statistics, that the police must report the actual misconduct, something that as we are seeing more and more of, doesn't happen.
People saying that there is no problem with police at this point are just as naive or willfully ignorant as people used to be towards domestic violence and rape. How long were those stories just "endless blathering anecdotes"?

[Broomstick]

I'd also speculate that high-profile police forces, like the LAPD, NYPD, Chicago PD etc. are much more professional, and have much less incidents of misconduct despite the larger population numbers.

Can't speak for the other cities, but it doesn't hold true for Chicago. LOTS of miconduct there, and probably related to the epic levels of corruption in the political offices of the city and the State of Illinois (remember - the "governor's wing" of the state prison is not named for a governor who built it but for all the governor's who have served time in it).

Look into Jon Burge, former Chicago police commander and now convicted felon who tortured 200 or more suspects, leading to many convictions of innocent people. The whole affair was directly connected to the Illinois death penalty moratorium and a review of everyone on death row where a majority of people awaiting execution were found to be innocent. The donkeyfucker tortured people for nearly 20 years and almost got away with it.

Of course, it wasn't just Jon Burge - plenty of others went along with it, including a Cook County State Attorney who went on to become Chicago's longest-serving mayor. Who must be made of fucking teflon because that asshole broke the law left, right, and center and has never been touched for anything he's done wrong.

And while some convictions were overturned, many were not. Burge only got 4.5 years for fucking up the lives of hundreds (and probably leading to some innocents being executed). Probably the most positive on-going outcome from all this is that it is now required for all police interrogations in Chicago to be videotaped.

Bottom line - big city police departments can be cesspits of corruption and wrong-doing. Size is not a protection.

[Havok]

Yeah Oakland was corrupt as fuck for a while. Look up the Oakland PD Riders among other things.

[Channel72]

I find it awesome that in Channel72's rant about anecdotes and actual fucking stats that the CATO report has a link with the tag line "Have you seen a credible story about police misconduct that we missed?", y'know asking for endless blathering anecdotes.

What's your point? Are you equating random shit posted on an Internet forum with a nation-wide study? The plural of anecdote IS data if the sample size and distribution is sufficient.

I also am reminded of the fact that in order to gather police misconduct statistics, that the police must report the actual misconduct, something that as we are seeing more and more of, doesn't happen.
People saying that there is no problem with police at this point are just as naive or willfully ignorant as people used to be towards domestic violence and rape. How long were those stories just "endless blathering anecdotes"?

Yeah, I've already addressed this. I'm not saying there's no problem here. I'm saying you can't generalize by saying stupid shit like "all cops are out to get you." As evidence I offer the fact that complaints against the police are completely lop-sided geographically. People in Louisiana and Missouri complain about police misconduct way more than people in New York or Maine. So what does that mean? You bring up the problem of reporting. Okay, so what the fuck are you suggesting then - that police brutality is equally distributed across the USA, but for some reason people in New York and Maine don't complain as much?? - (maybe you think Andrew Cuomo is running a Stalinist regime here so everyone is afraid to complain?) Or that the cops in Lousiana are inexplicably more prone to misconduct but less prone to avoid reporting complaints?

[Napoleon the Clown]

Nobody has said "all cops are out to get you", chucklefuck. All that's been said is that if you do get that corrupt asshole cop you're utterly powerless against them and had best avoid doing anything that could implicate you in anything. It's called risk/benefit analysis. The benefit of engaging the police in conversation or volunteering information is outweighed by the risk that the cop you're dealing with is an asshole on a power trip.

Nobody has said "Be a dick to the pigs!" Nobody has said you should be hostile, rude, or in any matter unpleasant toward the police. It's "Be mindful of the power they wield over you."

[Channel72]

Nobody has said "all cops are out to get you", chucklefuck. All that's been said is that if you do get that corrupt asshole cop you're utterly powerless against them and had best avoid doing anything that could implicate you in anything. It's called risk/benefit analysis. The benefit of engaging the police in conversation or volunteering information is outweighed by the risk that the cop you're dealing with is an asshole on a power trip.

Nobody has said "Be a dick to the pigs!" Nobody has said you should be hostile, rude, or in any matter unpleasant toward the police. It's "Be mindful of the power they wield over you."

You and I are obviously talking about different threads, because there's no way a total genius liked you missed that post.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Stellar reading comprehension there. He was saying that cops view there job as punishing people, not fixing a flat tire for you or giving you a jump start on a cold winter morning. There's a small difference. Difficult to grasp, I know. Given a Cato Institute citation , I'm not exactly shocked that subtlety is not your strong suit. Sort of like if someone were to post an article from Richard Dawkins' site while viewing religion as something that can be quite beneficial on the whole, really.

You did notice the part where he said that there are appropriate times to call the police, yes? If his message were that they're out to get you, wouldn't he have said never call the police?

[Dominus Atheos]

Nobody has said "all cops are out to get you", chucklefuck. All that's been said is that if you do get that corrupt asshole cop you're utterly powerless against them and had best avoid doing anything that could implicate you in anything. It's called risk/benefit analysis. The benefit of engaging the police in conversation or volunteering information is outweighed by the risk that the cop you're dealing with is an asshole on a power trip.

Nobody has said "Be a dick to the pigs!" Nobody has said you should be hostile, rude, or in any matter unpleasant toward the police. It's "Be mindful of the power they wield over you."

You and I are obviously talking about different threads, because there's no way a total genius liked you missed that post.

What? My post has basically the exact same message as Napoleon's first paragraph, just in a less calm phrasing.

[Channel72]

He was saying that cops view there job as punishing people, not fixing a flat tire for you or giving you a jump start on a cold winter morning.

Please... and how is that not pretty much semantically equivalent to claiming that "the cops are out to get you" ?

I'm tired of this strawman "the cops are your friends!" bullshit started by Havok. Nobody is claiming the cops are your adorable friends out to cuddle with you. Nobody is claiming it's the cops' job to fix your flat tire or kiss you goodnight, for fuck's sake.

But on the other hand, not every cop has a fucking "quota" to fill. Certain traffic cops have unofficial (illegal) quotas to fill, but that doesn't mean everytime you call the police they're going to be itching to arrest you, as Dominus Atheos' post pretty much unsubtly suggests - nor does it mean every police precinct has illegal quotas in effect.* Most (non-traffic) police officers spend their time dealing with stupid bullshit like disorderly conduct, domestic disputes etc.

And for the last time, the stats show that police misconduct is unevenly distributed across the country, which strongly suggests that certain police precincts are way more prone to abuse than others.

* Of course, if you disagree, feel free to demonstrate that anyone should care by posting stats showing that the majority of people who call 911 end up getting arrested themselves, as DA's post seems to suggest.

[Dominus Atheos]

Just to be clear, you should definitely not be rude or hostile to the police, not because they don't deserve it, but because if you do there is a non-trivial chance that they will beat you, tase you, mace you or if you are black even shoot you.

[Dominus Atheos]

So channel72 and a couple of other idiots were shitting up this thread, so I thought I'd post this video to show why the other people in this thread aren't overreacting.



That cop was fired and arrested, but that really doesn't help the black guy who was shot.

[TheFeniX]

That cop was fired and arrested, but that really doesn't help the black guy who was shot.

"Why'd you shoot me?"
"You dove head-first into your car. Then you jump back out, I'm telling you to get out of your car."

What a chuckle-fuck. You know, I don't have any fucks to give about procedure: if cops have to keep shooting everyone, the least they can do is quit instantly cuffing people for the crime of "being shot by police." At least then we'd have more people able to stop the bleeding themselves while the cop then bothers him for his driver's license. I can't tell from the camera, did he keep him handcuffed the whole time?

[Kamakazie Sith]

So channel72 and a couple of other idiots were shitting up this thread, so I thought I'd post this video to show why the other people in this thread aren't overreacting.



That cop was fired and arrested, but that really doesn't help the black guy who was shot.

Congratulations. You've found 3 incidents out of an estimated 40 million police and citizen contacts per year. When are you going to admit that you are engaging in conjecture and aren't actually going to make a serious attempt to support your position.


You are the only one shitting up this thread. If you have some actual numbers to support your claim then post it otherwise concede. Consider this a formal request, fuck face.