Alyrium Denryle wrote:On the one hand, there is the F&F scandal, in which a long-term operation started under a prior administration exploded before the new administration could possibly get up to speed on the operations of an agency that has a great many operations, nestled inside a government with many many agencies.
*bzzzt* You're conflating to different ATF operations.
One was Operation Wide Receiver, conducted during the end of the Bush administration, which was done with the cooperation of Mexican law enforcement. The majority of the operation was conducted in Tuscon. It ended when they realized that they weren't actually having success in tracking the guns.
The other is Operation Fast & Furious, which did not involve Mexican law enforcement. It also failed to actually track where they went, which is not surprising. It began in October 2009, which is to say, well after Obama took office. It also occurred in Phoenix.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Lord MJ wrote:I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Yeah! The guy who'll probably screw me less can go fuck himself if he doesn't look like me.
"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
Lord MJ wrote:I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Pretty much exactly my position. . . .
There are some thought though that many whites voted for Romney because they are still racist.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Lord MJ wrote:I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Pretty much exactly my position. . . .
There are some thought though that many whites voted for Romney because they are still racist.
Thing is, if a white person votes for Romney because he's white, and a black person votes for Obama because he's black, surely they are just as racist?
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Lord MJ wrote:I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Pretty much exactly my position. . . .
There are some thought though that many whites voted for Romney because they are still racist.
Thing is, if a white person votes for Romney because he's white, and a black person votes for Obama because he's black, surely they are just as racist?
A black person voting for Obama because he is black is racist. . . .I don't deny that.
E.W. Jackson however was so odious that he lost the Lt Governor race in Virginia by a large margin and don't think he was popular among even black voters.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Lord MJ wrote:I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Pretty much exactly my position. . . .
There are some thought though that many whites voted for Romney because they are still racist.
Thing is, if a white person votes for Romney because he's white, and a black person votes for Obama because he's black, surely they are just as racist?
No, but that's beside the point. You're buying into the notion that the level of support Obama received among black voters was anomalous, when it was actually a similar percentage as many other Democratic candidates.
Like I said, I'm not "buying into" anything, I was just curious.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Elheru Aran wrote:So... Christie is probably politically fucked for a while, then? How exactly is this a bad thing?
Could we get one of the real crazies as president in 2016?
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
I don't think anyone like the 'crazy' Republican candidates in the 2012 election, or anyone who talks like a radical Congressional Republican today does, would have much chance of winning a general election. There simply are not that many Americans who actually want such crazy in public office; even a lot of Republicans have problems with it. The great sea of indifferent/unclaimed voters tend to react negatively.
And it'd be too easy to bait them into statements in the debates that are about as unpopular as "I hate mom and apple pie."
Lord MJ wrote:I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Pretty much exactly my position. . . .
There are some thought though that many whites voted for Romney because they are still racist.
Thing is, if a white person votes for Romney because he's white, and a black person votes for Obama because he's black, surely they are just as racist?
Depends. One could argue that the black people were voting for Obama to move for their interests as a minority group (can't recall hearing anything about this from him except some standard "Take responsibility and aspire to be a doctor, not a ball player!" talk ) and also to have a permanent symbol of progress while white people who vote for Romney because fellow-white-person...want to maintain their position as the group that gets to be elected as president. And since they are not a minority body it is questionable exactly what rights they want or need Romney to protect. Dunno, I think that's usually how these arguments about whites and blacks being equally racist seem to go from a progressive standpoint and I'm not that opposed to it.
Does anyone know if there were ANY worth while polls or studies done after the 2008 election that recorded IF any blacks admitted to voting for Obama "Just because he was Black" ?I am curious if there are any hard numbers on the subject.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan Read "Tales From The Crossroads"! Read "One Wrong Turn"!
Crossroads Inc. wrote:Does anyone know if there were ANY worth while polls or studies done after the 2008 election that recorded IF any blacks admitted to voting for Obama "Just because he was Black" ?I am curious if there are any hard numbers on the subject.
Why does it matter? Is there any doubt in your mind that a non-trivial percentage of them did support him just because he's black (as I cheerfully would if presented with a candidate for President who hailed from a minority that I belong to, all else being equal), or that the majority of them would've jumped (D) anyway if presented with all-white candidates?
"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
Lord MJ wrote:I think it's an issue with whether Blacks will even turn out to vote in the 2016 election in numbers approaching the 2008 and 2012 elections, not whether they will vote Democrat or Republican.
Pretty much exactly my position. . . .
There are some thought though that many whites voted for Romney because they are still racist.
Thing is, if a white person votes for Romney because he's white, and a black person votes for Obama because he's black, surely they are just as racist?
Eh... No. There is a structural component to it. In one direction, it perpetuates a racist power structure. In the other direction it is someone who gets shit upon by the racist power structure voting for someone else who knows what it is like to be shit upon by the racist power structure, all other things being equal.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Erm...awkward race politics aside for the moment. This whole mess is turning into having a whole crapload of people in Christie's inner circle being involved while it was happening, the only person not yet in the emails is Christie himself. It looks like the New Jersey Assembly is gonna get a crapton of fifth amendment pleading if that's any indication. And from there it's looking like a game of prisoner's dilemma should actual charges be brought in somewhere, somehow.
