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US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mil...

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The Guardian wrote:Officials in key parts of the Obama administration are increasingly convinced that sanctions will not deter Tehran from pursuing its nuclear programme, and believe that the US will be left with no option but to launch an attack on Iran or watch Israel do so.

The president has made clear in public, and in private to Israel, that he is determined to give sufficient time for recent measures, such as the financial blockade and the looming European oil embargo, to bite deeper into Iran's already battered economy before retreating from its principal strategy to pressure Tehran.

But there is a strong current of opinion within the administration – including in the Pentagon and the state department – that believes sanctions are doomed to fail, and that their principal use now is in delaying Israeli military action, as well as reassuring Europe that an attack will only come after other means have been tested.

"The White House wants to see sanctions work. This is not the Bush White House. It does not need another conflict," said an official knowledgeable on Middle East policy. "Its problem is that the guys in Tehran are behaving like sanctions don't matter, like their economy isn't collapsing, like Israel isn't going to do anything.

"Sanctions are all we've got to throw at the problem. If they fail then it's hard to see how we don't move to the 'in extremis' option."

The White House has said repeatedly that all options are on the table, including the use of force to stop Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon, but that for now the emphasis is firmly on diplomacy and sanctions.

But long-held doubts among US officials about whether the Iranians can be enticed or cajoled into serious negotiations have been reinforced by recent events.

"We don't see a way forward," said one official. "The record shows that there is nothing to work with."

Scepticism about Iranian intent is rooted in Iran's repeated spurning of overtures from successive US presidents from Bill Clinton to Barack Obama, who appealed within weeks of coming to office for "constructive ties" and "mutual respect" .

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's claim this week that Iran loaded its first domestically-made fuel rod into a nuclear reactor, and Iran's threat to cut oil supplies to six European countries, were read as further evidence that Tehran remains defiantly committed to its nuclear programme. That view was strengthened by the latest Iranian offer to negotiate with the UN security council in a letter that appeared to contain no significant new concessions.

If Obama were to conclude that there is no choice but to attack Iran, he is unlikely to order it before the presidential election in November unless there is an urgent reason to do so. The question is whether the Israelis will hold back that long.

Earlier this month, the US defence secretary, Leon Panetta, told the Washington Post that he thought the window for an Israeli attack on Iran is between April and June. But other official analysts working on Iran have identified what one described as a "sweet spot", where the mix of diplomacy, political timetables and practical issues come together to suggest that if Israel launches a unilateral assault it is more likely in September or October, although they describe that as a "best guess".

However, the Americans are uncertain as to whether Israel is serious about using force if sanctions fail or has ratcheted up threats primarily in order to pressure the US and Europeans in to stronger action. For its part, the US is keen to ensure that Tehran does not misinterpret a commitment to giving sanctions a chance to work as a lack of willingness to use force as a last resort.

American officials are resigned to the fact that the US will be seen in much of the world as a partner in any Israeli assault on Iran – whether or not Washington approved of it. The administration will then have to decide whether to, in the parlance of the US military, "pile on", by using its much greater firepower to finish what Israel starts.

"The sanctions are there to pressure Iran and reassure Israel that we are taking this issue seriously," said one official. "The focus is on demonstrating to Israel that this has a chance of working. Israel is sceptical but appreciates the effort. It is willing to give it a go, but how long will it wait?"

Colin Kahl, who was US deputy assistant secretary of defence for the Middle East until December, said: "With the European oil embargo and US sanctions on the central bank, the Israelis probably have to give some time now to let those crippling sanctions play out.

"If you look at the calendar, it doesn't make much sense that the Israelis would jump the gun. They probably need to provide a decent interval for those sanctions to be perceived as failing, because they care about whether an Israeli strike would be seen as philosophically legitimate; that is, as only having happened after other options were exhausted. So I think that will push them a little further into 2012."

The White House is working hard to keep alive the prospect that sanctions will deliver a diplomatic solution. It has pressed the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, to quieten the belligerent chatter from his own cabinet about an attack on Iran. The chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, general Martin Dempsey, was dispatched to Jerusalem last month to talk up the effect of sanctions and to press, unsuccessfully, for a commitment that Israel will not launch a unilateral attack against Iran.

Dennis Ross, Obama's former envoy for the Middle East and Iran, this week said that sanctions may be pushing Tehran toward negotiations.

But in other parts of the administration, the assumption is that sanctions will fail, and so calculations are being made about what follows, including how serious Israel is in its threat to launch a unilateral attack on Iran's nuclear installations, and how the US responds.

But Iran's increasingly belligerent moves – such as the botched attempts, laid at Tehran's door, to attack Israeli diplomats in Thailand, India and Georgia – are compounding the sense that Iran is far from ready to negotiate.

Feeding in to the considerations are the timing of the American election, including its bearing on Israeli thinking, as well as the pace of Iranian advances in their nuclear programme.

Obama has publicly said that there are no differences with Israel on Iran, describing his administration as in "lock step" with the Jewish state.

But the US and Israel are at odds over the significance of Iran's claim to have begun enriching uranium at the underground facility at Fordow, near the holy city of Qom, and therefore the timing of any military action.

Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, has warned that Iran cannot be allowed to establish a "zone of immunity" at Fordow where it is able to work on a nuclear weapon deep underground protected from Israel's conventional weapons. Earlier this month, Barak said Israel must consider an attack before that happens.

The Americans say there is no such urgency because the facility is just one among many Tehran needs to build a nuclear weapon, and that other sites are still vulnerable to attack and sabotage in other ways. The US also has a more powerful military arsenal, although it is not clear whether it would be able to destroy the underground Fordow facility.

Kahl said part of Washington's calculation is to judge whether Israel is seriously contemplating attacking Iran, or is using the threat to pressure the US and Europe into confronting Tehran.

"It's not that the Israelis believe the Iranians are on the brink of a bomb. It's that the Israelis may fear that the Iranian programme is on the brink of becoming out of reach of an Israeli military strike, which means it creates a 'now-or-never' moment," he said.

"That's what's actually driving the timeline by the middle of this year. But there's a countervailing factor that [Ehud] Barak has mentioned – that they're not very close to making a decision and that they're also trying to ramp up concerns of an Israeli strike to drive the international community towards putting more pressure on the Iranians."

Israeli pressure for tougher measures against Tehran played a leading role in the US Congresss passing sanctions legislation targeting Iran's financial system and oil sales. Some US and European officials say those same sanctions have also become a means for Washington to pressure Israel not to act precipitously in attacking Iran.

The presidential election is also a part of Israel's calculation, not least the fractious relationship between Obama and Netanyahu, who has little reason to do the US president any political favours and has good reason to prefer a Republican in the White House next year.

There is a school of thought – a suspicion, even – within the administration that Netanyahu might consider the height of the US election campaign the ideal time to attack Iran. With a hawkish Republican candidate ever ready to accuse him of weakness, Obama's room to pressure or oppose Netanyahu would be more limited than after the election.

"One theory is that Netanyahu and Barak may calculate that if Obama doesn't support an Israeli strike, he's unlikely to punish Israel for taking unilateral action in a contested election year," said Kahl. "Doing something before the US gives the Israelis a bit more freedom of manoeuvre."


Obama is also under domestic political pressure from Republican presidential contenders, who accuse him of vacillating on Iran, and from a Congress highly sympathetic to Israel's more confrontational stance.

Thirty-two senators from both parties introduced a resolution on Thursday rejecting "any policy that would rely on efforts to 'contain' a nuclear weapons-capable Iran". The measure was dressed up as intended to protect the president's back, but it smacked of yet more pressure to take a firmer stand with Iran.

One of the sponsors, senator Joe Lieberman, said that he did not want to discount diplomatic options but if the president ordered an attack on Iran he would have strong bipartisan support in Congress. Other senators said there needed to be a greater sense of urgency on the part of the administration in dealing with Iran and that sanctions are not enough.

Others are critical of sanctions for a different reason. Congressman Dennis Kucinich said this week he fears sanctions are less about changing Tehran's policy than laying the ground for military action. He warned that "the latest drum beat of additional sanctions and war against Iran sounds too much like the lead-up to the Iraq war".

"If the crippling sanctions that the US and Europe have imposed are meant to push the Iranian regime to negotiations, it hasn't worked," he said. "As the war of words between the United States and Iran escalates it's more critical than ever that we highlight alternatives to war to avoid the same mistakes made in Iraq."
If it does play out as the bolded part indicates, one has to wonder who is who's bitch in this relationship.

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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by madd0ct0r »

Brinkmanship:

the USA saying 'Iran,if you don't shape up, we might not be able to restrain Israel for much longer'. Indirect threat via slowly letting the situation slip out of control.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

The Iranians have every right as a sovereign nation to build a nuclear power facility and if they fucking want to, nuclear weapons as a deterrent. As long as they aren't off shooting them at innocent civilians and countries that have made no overtures to attack them (I believe in first strike if the intel is strong enough) then voila. They can't hit the US and if they did launch something we would most likely intercept it.

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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Sidewinder »

RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:The Iranians have every right as a sovereign nation to build a nuclear power facility and if they fucking want to, nuclear weapons as a deterrent. As long as they aren't off shooting them at innocent civilians and countries that have made no overtures to attack them (I believe in first strike if the intel is strong enough) then voila. They can't hit the US and if they did launch something we would most likely intercept it.
And Israel? Are you aware that Iran is engaged in a proxy war with Israel, via Hezbollah? That Israel has a valid reason to be wary of a nuclear-capable Iran?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Uraniun235 »

Sidewinder wrote:
RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:The Iranians have every right as a sovereign nation to build a nuclear power facility and if they fucking want to, nuclear weapons as a deterrent. As long as they aren't off shooting them at innocent civilians and countries that have made no overtures to attack them (I believe in first strike if the intel is strong enough) then voila. They can't hit the US and if they did launch something we would most likely intercept it.
And Israel? Are you aware that Iran is engaged in a proxy war with Israel, via Hezbollah? That Israel has a valid reason to be wary of a nuclear-capable Iran?
What is the maximum degree of pressure or force that you would approve of to deter or prevent Iran from building a nuclear arsenal?
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Post by Thanas »

Sidewinder wrote:
RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:The Iranians have every right as a sovereign nation to build a nuclear power facility and if they fucking want to, nuclear weapons as a deterrent. As long as they aren't off shooting them at innocent civilians and countries that have made no overtures to attack them (I believe in first strike if the intel is strong enough) then voila. They can't hit the US and if they did launch something we would most likely intercept it.
And Israel? Are you aware that Iran is engaged in a proxy war with Israel, via Hezbollah? That Israel has a valid reason to be wary of a nuclear-capable Iran?
Are you aware that Israel is engaged in a proxy war with Iran, via the People’s Mujahedin of Iran? That Iran has a valid reason to be wary of a nuclear-capable Israel financing terrorists inside their country (unlike Hezbollah, which after all operates in a neighbour state of Israel, not Israel proper?

If that is the level of discourse you want to sink to, then answer the above first.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Sidewinder wrote:
RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:The Iranians have every right as a sovereign nation to build a nuclear power facility and if they fucking want to, nuclear weapons as a deterrent. As long as they aren't off shooting them at innocent civilians and countries that have made no overtures to attack them (I believe in first strike if the intel is strong enough) then voila. They can't hit the US and if they did launch something we would most likely intercept it.
And Israel? Are you aware that Iran is engaged in a proxy war with Israel, via Hezbollah? That Israel has a valid reason to be wary of a nuclear-capable Iran?
See Thanas' post. The PMOI has been declared a terrorist organization by the US, Canada, Iraq, and Iran about the only thing we agree on with them. Curiously Israel doesn't think they're terrorist and apparently in normal UW/intelligence fashion have been training them to assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists. PMOI also took part in the killing of American soldiers in the 70's during the revolution. So if you want to bitch about a proxy war there's your response.

Any since we're on the subject of someone being afraid of someone else with nuclear missiles if I'm not mistaken Israel already has nukes and has the capability of launching them from air, sea, or ground based silos. So why wouldn't Iran be equally nervous of an already nuclear capable Israel?

EDITED: Spelling Error.

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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Baffalo »

Yes but there's also the issue of Israel possessing suitcase nukes, which they obtained through a secret deal with France. The US found out about it and told both that we'd keep quiet if they just shared the tech. That means that Israel possesses the ability to, with very little effort, slip a nuclear weapon into a nuclear facility, civilian or no, and detonate it and then claim that Iran just had an 'accident' if Iran tries to claim it was Israel. If Israel feels it necessary, they might just do it, and we've now got two very pissed off nations ready to go to war.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Phantasee »

That's not going to fly. Nuclear facilities don't develop a sudden case of mushroom cloud unless someone did it intentionally.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Sidewinder »

Baffalo wrote:Yes but there's also the issue of Israel possessing suitcase nukes, which they obtained through a secret deal with France. The US found out about it and told both that we'd keep quiet if they just shared the tech.
Link, please, to news articles confirming this?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by MKSheppard »

IAF says that the third arrow battalion will become operational in a couple weeks...

Meanwhile...

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Israel's spending cuts hits defense sector
February 14, 2012

Israel's military says major cuts in defense spending will hit air-defense missile systems being developed by Israel Aerospace Industries and others and halt production of the Merkava Mark 4 tank and the new Namer armored personnel carrier.

Israeli Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz last week ordered commanders to prepare for what The Jerusalem Post calls "a near-shutdown of the military in two months" because of cutbacks demanded by the Finance Ministry.

The Globes business daily said 700 career officers and senior non-commissioned officers in all service branches will be sacked over the next few months because of the cutbacks of an initial $800 million for fiscal 2012, with more expected.

"A number of strategic projects will be harmed," the Post quoted a senior officer as saying.

"We're canceling all kinds of exercises, from division-level down to battalion level," said another who attended Gantz's meeting of the top brass, from colonel on up.

"We won't be able to call up reserves and even when we hold exercises we'll be limited in the amount of live ammunition we can use."

The Post has also reported that the army "has decided to suspend all future orders of the new Merkava tanks and Namer APCs."

The 65-ton Merkava, which entered service in 1978, is designed by the Merkava Tank Office and assembled by the Israel Ordnance Corps.

Among the key contractors involved in production are Elta, which supplies electronic sensors and infra-red optics; Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, which makes the Trophy active protection systems to counter rockets and missiles; and El-Op an Elisa, the optics and laser warning system.

The Namer, in which the U.S. Army has shown interest, is based on the Merkava Mark 4 chassis and is intended as the Israel army's main fighting vehicle. The decision to develop the new APC, which is said to have improved reinforced steel protection, was made after the 2006 war with Hezbollah in which Israeli armor took heavy losses from anti-tank missiles.

All told, orders for components from 200 Israeli companies will be canceled.

Other strategic projects that are being affected are the Iron Dome missile-defense system designed by Rafael to intercept short-range missiles and artillery rounds.

The development of the David's Sling system, designed to shoot down medium-range missiles, and the Arrow-3 missile which is intended to target ballistic missiles outside Earth's atmosphere, are also likely to be affected.

David's sling is being built by Rafael. The long-range Arrow is being developed by state-owned Israel Aerospace Industries, flagship of Israel's defense sector.

The United States, which has paid half of the $3 billion cost of developing the Arrow system, agreed in 2011 to fork up $235 million for Arrow-3 and David's Sling development.

But the Israelis say 1.3-ton Arrow-3, the country's main defense against Iranian Shehab-3 intermediate-range ballistic missiles, will need $3.9 billion for the Arrow program over the next few years.

Gantz and Defense Ministry Director General Udi Shani are to meet with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in the coming weeks in a bid to secure additional funds to allow the military to implement its new five-year procurement plan.

That plan is undergoing major changes these days.

The Post reported that it "was supposed to continue the upgrade of recent years to the military's ground forces and at the same time improve its strategic capabilities with the procurement of additional F-35 stealth fighter jets and also lead to a boost in Israel's cyberwarfare capabilities."

In October 2010, Israel ordered an initial batch of 20 of F-35s from Lockheed Martin at a cost of $2.75 billion.

Given development problems and hefty cost over-runs, Israel may not take delivery of the first F-35s until 2017, two years later than anticipated.

Ultimately, Israel wants 75 of the fifth-generation fighters to maintain its long-held aerial superiority in the Middle East.

But with the budget cutbacks on top of Lockheed Martin's troubles, the air force has been examining the alternative of buying second-hand Boeing F-15s from the U.S. Air Force to fill the gap.

The five-year plan was formulated on the premise that Israel would have to fight a multi-front war sometime in the next few years and one in which the planned four-tier missile-defense shield would be a vital component.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Block »

Thanas wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:
RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:The Iranians have every right as a sovereign nation to build a nuclear power facility and if they fucking want to, nuclear weapons as a deterrent. As long as they aren't off shooting them at innocent civilians and countries that have made no overtures to attack them (I believe in first strike if the intel is strong enough) then voila. They can't hit the US and if they did launch something we would most likely intercept it.
And Israel? Are you aware that Iran is engaged in a proxy war with Israel, via Hezbollah? That Israel has a valid reason to be wary of a nuclear-capable Iran?
Are you aware that Israel is engaged in a proxy war with Iran, via the People’s Mujahedin of Iran? That Iran has a valid reason to be wary of a nuclear-capable Israel financing terrorists inside their country (unlike Hezbollah, which after all operates in a neighbour state of Israel, not Israel proper?

If that is the level of discourse you want to sink to, then answer the above first.
You of course can prove that Hezbollah doesn't operate inside Israel?
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Simon_Jester »

Under the circumstances, I'd think that ABM would be the last thing Israel would want to defund. If they actually believe that Iran might launch a nuclear first strike if they got The Bomb...

Almost any expense now would be better than Iranian nuclear missiles dropping on their head later.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

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Sidewinder wrote:
Baffalo wrote:Yes but there's also the issue of Israel possessing suitcase nukes, which they obtained through a secret deal with France. The US found out about it and told both that we'd keep quiet if they just shared the tech.
Link, please, to news articles confirming this?
It would also be nice to hear a reason to take it seriously, since the idea that the US needs to make deals with France and Israel for access to their superior nuclear weapons technology sounds completely absurd on its face.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Its totally absurd. France insisted on testing nukes into 1996 after the US-UK-China-Russia agreed a halt specifically because they didn't feel like they had enough data on modern designs yet. Israel has indeed been claimed to have some advanced small nuclear warheads, directional ones specifically for anti tank use, but this is nothing the US couldn't have built had it felt like back in the early 1960s.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Block »

Simon_Jester wrote:Under the circumstances, I'd think that ABM would be the last thing Israel would want to defund. If they actually believe that Iran might launch a nuclear first strike if they got The Bomb...

Almost any expense now would be better than Iranian nuclear missiles dropping on their head later.
I'm pretty sure they don't think that's how a nuclear weapon would be delivered. The concern seems to be something like a bomb smuggled into the country.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by KrauserKrauser »

So to prevent Iran from building nukes to avoid being invaded, we have to invade them?

The logic hurts so good.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by ChaserGrey »

Nobody (okay, nobody serious) is talking about invading Iran. Israel can't, the U.S. probably can't and certainly won't. All the discussion on shutting down their nuclear program involves air strikes. Israel could probably do the deed solo (unless, of course, Mr. Murphy comes along for the ride), but it would be a lot easier with the U.S. riding shotgun.

All of which is completely separate from whether or not it's a good idea. But let's not get carried away talking over options that aren't on the table.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

ChaserGrey wrote: All the discussion on shutting down their nuclear program involves air strikes. Israel could probably do the deed solo (unless, of course, Mr. Murphy comes along for the ride), but it would be a lot easier with the U.S. riding shotgun.
Actually, I've pretty consistently heard that they couldn't shut it down solo. The Iranians built the program under the assumption that Israel would happily attack it, so it's hardened and dispersed enough that air strikes aren't effective.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by K. A. Pital »

ChaserGrey wrote:Nobody (okay, nobody serious) is talking about invading Iran. Israel can't, the U.S. probably can't and certainly won't. All the discussion on shutting down their nuclear program involves air strikes. Israel could probably do the deed solo (unless, of course, Mr. Murphy comes along for the ride), but it would be a lot easier with the U.S. riding shotgun.

All of which is completely separate from whether or not it's a good idea. But let's not get carried away talking over options that aren't on the table.
You realize of course that the Straits will be closed immediately and Iran will attack US forces in Iraq or Israel (depending on the party which attacked it in the first place), as bombings are an act of war? What then? Bomb them into the stone age without invading? Yeah.
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irishmick79
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by irishmick79 »

I would just point out that technically speaking it is illegal for Iran to build nuclear weapons, as they are a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which specifically bars member states from making such weapons. The NPT does guarantee Iran's right to pursue peaceful nuclear research and technology, though. What's at the heart of the diplomatic dispute is that the NPT's verification regime can no longer certify that Iran is confining itself to peaceful technology development per its treaty obligations.
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Julhelm
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Julhelm »

Stas Bush wrote:Bomb them into the stone age without invading? Yeah.
Exactly.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Skgoa »

KrauserKrauser wrote:So to prevent Iran from building nukes to avoid being invaded, we have to invade them?

The logic hurts so good.
Bush proved this by invading Iraq and giving North Korea heaps of money. You will note that Iran started paying much more attention to its nuclear program at that time. Of course that could just be a coincidence. :roll:
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

Post by Aaron MkII »

irishmick79 wrote:I would just point out that technically speaking it is illegal for Iran to build nuclear weapons, as they are a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which specifically bars member states from making such weapons. The NPT does guarantee Iran's right to pursue peaceful nuclear research and technology, though. What's at the heart of the diplomatic dispute is that the NPT's verification regime can no longer certify that Iran is confining itself to peaceful technology development per its treaty obligations.
So they should have withdrawn first? Hell being in the treaty probably bought them a few years grace, especially since its obvious why they want them.

I hope they get them, maybe then we'll stop fucking around over there.
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Re: US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making mi

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Block wrote:You of course can prove that Hezbollah doesn't operate inside Israel?
You want me to prove a negative? Sorry, not going to fly. How about you prove they do operate inside Israels borders?
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