Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Baffalo
Jedi Knight
Posts: 805
Joined: 2009-04-18 10:53pm
Location: NWA
Contact:

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Baffalo »

*raises hand* If Greece were to hyperinflate their currency and devalue it... what benefit would this have?
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry

"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Thanas »

They could easily pay off their current domestic debt.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thanas wrote:Internally, the duly elected Government as it so happens in a republic. Externally, the duly elected Government as representing the (as of now) sovereign nation of Greece.
From here we have to launch into an argument about where the real sovereignty lies in a republic. The government rules, but the government gets its mandate from the electorate. Where is the limit of the mandate? How far can the government go in saying "the people are wrong" before the people have good cause to start wanting the government removed from office?

There are a lot of jobs where you can ignore your boss and do what you think is right- and in most of them, if you do it long enough or in ways that hurt the boss's interests, you'll eventually get fired and replaced by someone who follows orders. Even if you're right, you can't expect someone to keep paying you to ignore them indefinitely.
That said, what is your solution to the problem? Do you simply want the German citizenry to write a big check and say "there you go, we do not mind paying the same figures in the next five years when the problem simply repeats itself?" The Greeks are also (non-surprisingly) resisting any outside influence to come in and fix their country (if that is even possible).

So what is the solution here?
I don't know. The Germans are under no obligation to keep bailing out Greece, that much I know- but the Greeks are under no obligation to restructure their economy and demolish their own social safety net to keep the Euro from collapsing.

Maybe Greece can't be fixed. I don't know. What I'm trying to say is that the situation as it stands is unacceptable to the Greek people. And that the way that 'Europe' seems to expect the Greeks to behave in the crisis raises questions about how seriously the EU takes the idea of national sovereignty.

I can certainly believe that the Greeks are being a bunch of damn fools and that the country would collapse even faster if their parliament was listening to the crowds in the streets instead of to Brussels. The question that troubles me is, do the Greek people still have a right to a government that listens to them first and Brussels second?

Do they have a right to a government that will listen to them even when they're wrong?
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Thanas »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Thanas wrote:Internally, the duly elected Government as it so happens in a republic. Externally, the duly elected Government as representing the (as of now) sovereign nation of Greece.
From here we have to launch into an argument about where the real sovereignty lies in a republic. The government rules, but the government gets its mandate from the electorate. Where is the limit of the mandate? How far can the government go in saying "the people are wrong" before the people have good cause to start wanting the government removed from office?
That depends on the country. Not knowing the Greek constitution in detail, I will not presume to judge that.

As to the rest of your post, I find little of substance worth discussing. It is way too general for that.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Narkis
Padawan Learner
Posts: 391
Joined: 2009-01-02 11:05pm
Location: Greece

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Narkis »

Stas Bush wrote:I wonder if it will come to a point where the successing power will have to grant immunity to the former deputees'/presidents/prime ministers so that they won't stand trial for their crimes against the people.
They don't actually have to do that. The statute of limitations has already been set to a single parliamentary period. And PMs and former PMs are immune to prosecution for crimes committed during their tenure, unless the current parliament agrees that the accused did not act in good faith, and votes to revoke their immunity. They almost always protect their own when it (rarely) comes up, but they do throw someone to the wolves from time to time, in order to appease the public.
Thanas wrote:Was she using hyperbole? I dunno, when people are openly equating Merkel to Hitler I kinda tend to not give them the benefit of the doubt here.
It should be pretty obvious. No one in their right mind would believe that the current situation is worse than the occupation. People aren't starving (yet), no troops are marching, no one has been executed for dissent, the swastika isn't flying on the Acropolis. But people are drawing parallels. Our government is complicit in the impoverishment of the people, at the orders of foreign powers. There is a sense that Merkel is trying to ensure Germany's hegemony over Europe, only this time using money and bankers, rather than bullets and the wermacht. And that's the basis for the Hitler comparisons.
LaCroix wrote:This makes me wonder where they got them? I mean, this isn't something you can order over ebay, don't you? (I actually had to check this now and no, you can't.)

Are there some companies that supply protestors with 100% flammable flags on demand?
There are companies that make such flags. Some people buy them to burn. Some (less) people buy them to display. As long as there is demand, there will be supply.
Stas Bush wrote:Considering that the government which they have right now basically fell and caved in like a pussy on the matter of a national referendum on whether they should actually exit Eurozone and have a sovereign default or continue the current course, and that was pretty much the only time they seriously wanted to consult the people on the matter...

I can't say I'm terribly dissappointed that a bunch of angry youngsters attempted to burn down the fucking Treasury. After all, if the power is composed of corrupt and completely unresponsive, callous dickheads, the only thing that they understand is when their buildings will be set on fire, I guess.
Correction: It was the previous government, under PASOK's Papandreou that caved on the referendum. The current one is a coalition government of the top two parties (and until recently the far right LAOS), led by the neutral Papademos. Not that they've shown any more spine.
User avatar
Spoonist
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2405
Joined: 2002-09-20 11:15am

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Spoonist »

Narkis wrote:
LaCroix wrote:This makes me wonder where they got them? I mean, this isn't something you can order over ebay, don't you? (I actually had to check this now and no, you can't.)

Are there some companies that supply protestors with 100% flammable flags on demand?
There are companies that make such flags. Some people buy them to burn. Some (less) people buy them to display. As long as there is demand, there will be supply.
As a sidenote I saw a small business report in between news where they visited a flagfactory in Palestine. They had two 'secret' lines, one with Israeli and one with US flags which they produced solely for the protests.
He also talked about an "embarressing" mistake when they got a genuine order for US flags and they delivered the cheap ones - turned out that they were flown outside an Israeli reception for US guests. But those flags tore up in brisk winds, so it all looked bad.
When asked about the economics of the thing they said they got more revenue from the 'secret' lines than from the rest combined since people came back for more. They just had to be careful about how they showed their wares.

So I guess its the same here.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Thanas »

Narkis wrote:It should be pretty obvious. No one in their right mind would believe that the current situation is worse than the occupation. People aren't starving (yet), no troops are marching, no one has been executed for dissent, the swastika isn't flying on the Acropolis. But people are drawing parallels. Our government is complicit in the impoverishment of the people, at the orders of foreign powers. There is a sense that Merkel is trying to ensure Germany's hegemony over Europe, only this time using money and bankers, rather than bullets and the wermacht. And that's the basis for the Hitler comparisons.
I don't know. It just irks me seeing this brought up from people who should know better. Maybe I am just oversensitive to the Nazi stuff though. It does create a larger problem though, namely that of perception. Over here nations like Ireland and Portugal are pretty much seen as trying to fix things, whereas in Greece the images we get are Chaos. Doesn't do much wonder to allay fears about the willingness to reform things, especially not with the politicians coming across as weak, corrupt and not all that bright.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Baffalo
Jedi Knight
Posts: 805
Joined: 2009-04-18 10:53pm
Location: NWA
Contact:

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Baffalo »

Update:
Image
French Candidate Assails Plan for Greece
By STEVEN ERLANGER
PARIS — The front-runner for the French presidency, the Socialist candidate François Hollande, criticized European policy on Greece on Monday, saying that mandatory austerity measures were too severe and would never produce the desired results because “everyone knows” that “there is no rebound in growth in Europe and in Greece.”

Mr. Hollande’s remarks, one day after the Greek Parliament adopted austerity measures demanded by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund, while violent protests left many buildings in Athens in flames, offered a critical assessment of European and Greek leaders’ handling of the crisis. The Greek government, he said, would “have a short life,” while the austerity plan forced on Greece amounted to a “purge.”

The French presidential race is heating up with President Nicolas Sarkozy expected to make his candidacy for re-election official this week. Mr. Sarkozy is still running behind Mr. Hollande in the opinion polls for both the first round of voting on April 22 and in a runoff on May 6. In a luncheon interview with a group of foreign journalists here, Mr. Hollande was pleasant and expansive, but remained vague on the details of his programs.

But predictably, he was sharper about what he saw as the failures of Mr. Sarkozy and other European leaders. While there had certainly been a failure of Greek governance, Mr. Hollande said, there was also “a failure of European governance.”

Greece should have been tackled sooner, with a larger bailout fund to substitute for a part of public debt and to bring it down to 60 percent of gross domestic product, he said, with both public and private creditors sharing the burden. Or the European Central Bank could have lent directly to Greece, he said, although that is banned by its charter.

The point is not to allow Greece to escape belt-tightening and reform, Mr. Hollande said. But without growth there was no way out for Greece, he said. He predicted that after private investors discounted their holdings by about 70 percent, public debt would also have to be restructured.

“Everyone wanted to treat Greece with ordinary measures,” Mr. Hollande said. “It was necessary to treat Greece with extraordinary measures,” and now the situation in Greece is almost intolerable, with the government blocked. “Who is paying taxes today in Greece? It’s a real question,” he said. “The wealthiest people — there are plenty in Greece — have gotten on their escape boats, they’ve left. And the poorest people are in the underground economy.”

Mr. Hollande also said that he would work with all of France’s allies, and that it was vital that Britain remain actively engaged in the European Union.

Mr. Sarkozy and his aides had no direct comment. But he has worked closely with Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany to try to manage the Greek crisis, urging stronger measures than either the German leader or the European Central Bank was willing to accept. European leaders have said that the Greek government has been unwilling or unable to follow through on its promises — to collect unpaid taxes, for example, or to sell off state assets.

Mr. Hollande was more ambivalent about NATO and Mr. Sarkozy’s decision to reintegrate France fully in the alliance’s military command, a decision Mr. Sarkozy said was vital for the successful military mission to defeat the Libyan government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.

On Syria, he, like Mr. Sarkozy, opposed a military intervention to drive out President Bashar al-Assad, saying that Syria was much more complicated than Libya. Mr. Hollande praised the recommendation of the Arab League to have joint peacekeepers with the United Nations, a plan that is largely unworkable because of the intense fighting and because Syria has already rejected it. “What’s required is not an intervention to chase out Assad,” he said, “but at least to allow the blue helmets to arrive so that the massacres stop.”

Mr. Hollande said he would, as promised, move to accelerate the withdrawal of French troops from Afghanistan, but would do so “in consultation with our allies” and not in response to particular tragedies there. If elected in May, one of his first major international obligations will be the next NATO summit in Chicago a little more than a week later.

Asked if NATO is still useful, he said, “NATO, we’re there, we’re in the alliance and we are not going to leave.” But he said that Mr. Sarkozy had not achieved a “European defense” that was a condition of re-entering NATO, and that France must “keep our independence and our singularity” in certain military matters. That could require a discussion of leaving the integrated military command once more, Mr. Hollande said, but he did not make a strong point of it.
So basically he's blaming the guy in power now for what happened in the past, when he's saying he would've done it better had he been in power. Gotta love politicians cashing in on the tragedy of others.
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry

"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by K. A. Pital »

Sarkozy's actions have largely contributed to what you call "tragedy of others". He and other European dickhead rulers basically were complicit in the global crisis just like the bankers whose cock they sucked 24/7, no way around it and absolutely no forgiveness. Neither forgetness. Sorry.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Simon_Jester »

Baffalo, how is it unreasonable for the opposition to do that? Isn't that the point of having an opposition in a legislature, that they can examine and critique the policies of the government and present alternatives?
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Narkis
Padawan Learner
Posts: 391
Joined: 2009-01-02 11:05pm
Location: Greece

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Narkis »

Thanas wrote:I don't know. It just irks me seeing this brought up from people who should know better. Maybe I am just oversensitive to the Nazi stuff though. It does create a larger problem though, namely that of perception. Over here nations like Ireland and Portugal are pretty much seen as trying to fix things, whereas in Greece the images we get are Chaos. Doesn't do much wonder to allay fears about the willingness to reform things, especially not with the politicians coming across as weak, corrupt and not all that bright.
The Nazi thing is way overrepresented. Seriously. Trangas is a joke, who used to fight with everyone over everything on national tv, invited in shows only to pad their numbers, and now appears on a local Athenian channel, Extra 3 and not 33, that was founded by a politician, president of a party that has failed to enter the parliament for the past two decades it's been trying, and who's failed to attract anything but satire. That newspaper with the stupid cover has a market share of about 5% from what I've discovered, and I hadn't heard it existed until now. But I can't really disagree with the rest of what you said. Only, we have some very bright politicians. They've mostly kept out of the headlines, letting others take the blame while they use their position for personal gain.

And that's probably the best English article I've read on the matter.
Greece lies bankrupt, humiliated and ablaze: is cradle of democracy finished?
The violence, looting and chaos engulfing the country underlines growing rift between the Greek people and their politicians


Greece got rid of its military dictators in July 1974. But almost four decades later, as the debt-stricken country endures a crisis that some might say is almost as bad as the long dark night of their rule, it is still impossible to protest in the cradle of democracy.

When tens of thousands of Greeks tried to demonstrate peacefully in front of the large sandstone parliament building on Sunday night, they were met almost immediately with volleys of teargas. The toxic fumes were the authorities' answer not only to the popular opposition unleashed by the prospect of yet more austerity but the fear that underpins it. For angst, like uncertainty, is now haunting Greece.

What followed was textbook chaos: a familiar mix of young punks with no relation to ordinary protesters going on the rampage, setting fire to banks, stores and cafes. Scenes of bedlam and mayhem that ensured the event taking place inside the Athens parliament – a ballot on deeply unpopular measures in return for the rescue funds that will keep bankruptcy at bay – was thoroughly drowned out.

Buildings burned into the early hours. By the time Athenians awoke, the historic heart of their ancient city resembled a war zone. Shops along busy boulevards lay looted, their shutters shattered and smashed. Mangled bus stops lay strewn among the detritus. The charred remains of two of the capital's oldest cinemas smouldered, and, with the stench of teargas still hanging in the air, newspapers proclaimed the vote had been passed.

"All this," said Angela Economou, a student taking in a blackened edifice that had once been a bank, "when all we had wanted to do was exercise our democratic right.

"It is not the politicians who are suffering, it's the people. And these are measures that don't only kill your creative flame, they make you despair."

As Europe's great debt drama intensifies, it is clear that in the country where it began nothing is going to plan. Teetering on the edge of economic collapse, Greece is also on the brink of becoming ungovernable; its politicians panic-stricken and discredited; its institutions barely functioning; its people ground down by waves of budget cuts.

Three years into the crisis and the crushing austerity demanded by the EU, ECB and IMF, the country's troika of creditors, is clearly having a devastating effect.

Unemployment, once among the lowest in the EU, is nudging 21%, an all-time high, industry has all but collapsed, and nationwide hundreds of small businesses, once the lifeblood of the Greek economy, are closing by the day. The desperate and poor can no longer be hidden. Begging has proliferated. So, too, have the homeless, mostly men who can no longer afford a roof over their heads who crouch in doorways or lie strewn across pavements, buried under blankets, hands outstretched.

As recession stretches into a fifth straight year, the spectre of yet more wage, pension and job cuts – the price of €130bn in further aid from foreign lenders – has not just startled Greeks but united them in rage.

Tellingly, more members of the well-dressed, well-shod middle class rushed to participate in Sunday's protests than ever before. Thronging the area around Syntagma square, surgical masks often hanging about their necks, their presence was the strongest sign yet that the savage measures exacted in exchange for aid have begun to affect people who not that long ago might have considered themselves "well-established".

"I can still remember as a boy how it was during the great famine and great freeze of the winter of 1941," said Panaghiotis Yerogaloyiannis, a former mariner now surviving on a pension of €500 a month.

"We have a different sort of war now, one that's economic, that's not fought on the field. But it's still the same enemy, the Germans. And today you are not even allowed to protest. I carry this around," he said producing a wooden baton from a plastic bag, "to protect myself from the police and thugs who hijack our demonstrations."

More and more Greeks believe they are "at war". For the political class, joined in an uneasy power-sharing alliance under Lucas Papademos, the technocrat prime minister, it is a war that "must be won."

War is unfair, officials say. There's collateral damage, innocents get hurt, some even die. "There was never not going to be victims," said one economist employed by the government. "It is the price that has to be paid getting from point A to point B. We had a system based on debt and it was totally unsustainable. It had to change."

Fear is the strongest force keeping the alternative – default, bankruptcy and eurozone expulsion – at bay. Five weeks separate Athens from hypothetically having to renege on its massive debts – by 20 March it has to have €14.5bn to meet loan repayments.

Once the latest rescue programme gets under way, starting with a private bond swap deal that will automatically reduce Greece's €350bn debt pile by €100bn, Papademos says the economy will be given the "breather" that will allow it to regain stability and slowly recover. Bankruptcy, said the leader, invoking apocalyptic scenes ahead of Sunday's vote, would be the death of Greece, a proud nation that within living memory had survived Nazi occupation, civil war and a military coup.

Even those who rue the day they gave up the drachma for the euro – and they are a growing contingent – would be hard pressed to disagree.

But that is the good scenario. For many, Greece has already lost its war.

Corrupt, bloated and inefficient, its public administration has come to a standstill; tax officers no longer able to receive bribes or kickbacks have simply stopped working which is partly why the economy has deteriorated rather than improved since Athens received its first, €110 bn bailout in May 2010. And with liquidity drying up payments are drying up too – companies providing the state with medicines and other supplies have not been paid for months.

Greece appears, increasingly, to be caught between two evils: avoiding official acceptance of bankruptcy and enacting reforms that, having already killed the market, now stand to exacerbate the very thing that will hurtle the country into greater poverty: recession. Growth and development, the two things that could provide a ray of hope, do not have pride of place in the fiscal remedies currently being advocated by Berlin, the main provider of rescue funds to date.

Far from deferring the day of reckoning, many believe that acceptance of the draconian conditions attached to the latest loan deal will only bring it closer to the precipice.

"Yesterday's vote in the parliament may have saved the country temporarily from default," said Vassilis Korkidis who heads the National Confederation of Greek Commerce. "But the Greek economy is going bankrupt and the country's political system is failing."

Paul Krugman, the Nobel economics laureate, expressed a similar view, if more forcefully, last week. "The Greek situation is essentially impossible. They will default on their debt. In fact they already have. The question is whether they will also leave the euro."

If the country is to be saved at all many believe it will have to be "rebooted" by starting all over again, from the beginning, when democracy was first reintroduced with the collapse of military rule.

"I would love it if a panel of outside judges came in and tested everyone I have to work with," said one civil servant complaining about the lack of meritocracy in his field. "I am sick of working with people who got where they are through rousfeti [political patronage in return for votes], who are totally incompetent and, yet, expect to be paid."

Resistance to reform – at the heart of Athens' failure to enact long overdue change and worsening relations with the EU – is likely to mount as opposition to the cuts also grows. A general election in April has added to worries that Greece is also braced for political tumult with powerful leftwing groups who are fierce opponents of cost-cutting reforms coming to the fore. Forced to leave their hotel in Athens by the backdoor because of daily protests, Troika officials openly say social unrest is their biggest concern.

As politicians on Sunday engaged in fierce debate over the controversial rescue package, with leftwing leaders furiously decrying the deal as "a blow to democracy," the finance minister, Evangelos Venizelos, admitted that, like many Greeks, he felt "as a refugee" in his own country.

Nothing was the same. Nothing would be the same. It was all about to change. And he prayed it would be in the right way.
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by madd0ct0r »

Corrupt, bloated and inefficient, its public administration has come to a standstill; tax officers no longer able to receive bribes or kickbacks have simply stopped working which is partly why the economy has deteriorated rather than improved since Athens received its first, €110 bn bailout in May 2010
is this because their wage was too low to live on without the kickbacks, or incompetence + greed?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
Narkis
Padawan Learner
Posts: 391
Joined: 2009-01-02 11:05pm
Location: Greece

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Narkis »

Their wage is too low to support the lifestyle most of them have chosen, but it's definitely possible to live on it, and quite comfortably. I've read that their average wage reach about 2k euros per month with the bonuses they get, when minimum wage was about 700, and is now 591.

Tax collectors haven't completely stoped working though. They've mainly slowed their pace considerably, and used the threat of a strike to avoid having their salaries and bonuses cut.
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by madd0ct0r »

well then: monthly productivity reviews with the least productive person each month getting sacked. zero fucking sympathy.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Thanas »

Thanks for the link Narkis. The more I read about stuff like this the more it seems Greece needs a decade or so of serious fixing under strict foreign oversight (think East Germany reconstruction) or that it needs to be cut loose, go bankrupt and then fix itself. Problem is the first situation seems to be opposed by the Greeks, the second is pretty much impractical.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Akhlut
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2660
Joined: 2005-09-06 02:23pm
Location: The Burger King Bathroom

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Akhlut »

Thanas wrote:Thanks for the link Narkis. The more I read about stuff like this the more it seems Greece needs a decade or so of serious fixing under strict foreign oversight (think East Germany reconstruction) or that it needs to be cut loose, go bankrupt and then fix itself. Problem is the first situation seems to be opposed by the Greeks, the second is pretty much impractical.
Is opposition by the Greeks to foreign oversight over their nation really hard to sympathize with, considering that, even if one is just looking at the modern borders of the nation, that within the past 500 years, it has been occupied by foreign overlords in whole or in part for 435 of those years (the Dodecanese being ceded only in 1947)?
SDNet: Unbelievable levels of pedantry that you can't find anywhere else on the Internet!
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Thanas »

No it is not and I wasn't passing judgement with my post anyway.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Baffalo
Jedi Knight
Posts: 805
Joined: 2009-04-18 10:53pm
Location: NWA
Contact:

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Baffalo »

Thanas wrote:Thanks for the link Narkis. The more I read about stuff like this the more it seems Greece needs a decade or so of serious fixing under strict foreign oversight (think East Germany reconstruction) or that it needs to be cut loose, go bankrupt and then fix itself. Problem is the first situation seems to be opposed by the Greeks, the second is pretty much impractical.
Is it impractical from the standpoint of the EU having a nation that's basically in the grips of chaos? Or is it impractical from the standpoint of the Greek citizenry who would be living a decade of chaos and civil war? Should a civil war break out, will the EU have the authority to go in and reestablish order? Or will they simply let Greece burn?
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry

"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by K. A. Pital »

Civil war blah blah blah. Just let Greece live alone and decide their own fate, duh.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Narkis
Padawan Learner
Posts: 391
Joined: 2009-01-02 11:05pm
Location: Greece

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Narkis »

Thanas wrote:Thanks for the link Narkis. The more I read about stuff like this the more it seems Greece needs a decade or so of serious fixing under strict foreign oversight (think East Germany reconstruction) or that it needs to be cut loose, go bankrupt and then fix itself. Problem is the first situation seems to be opposed by the Greeks, the second is pretty much impractical.
I would have agreed with you if the foreign overseers had given any indication that they'd even give fixing Greece a try. I was one of the people who welcomed their arrival. And if they'd gone after all the things wrong with the country, they'd find quite a few people supporting them, even over our elected morons. But they haven't. Since day one, they've only concerned themselves with money. They've asked for higher taxes, lower salaries and pensions, a smaller public sector. They've been rather vocal about that. But not a single word about corruption, or waste, or the ridiculous benefits of some. They've consistently advocated for the easiest ways to raise, or save, lots of money, consequences be damned. If that's not an indication of why they're here, I don't know what is.

And this is fucking ridiculous. They said that they'd agree to the bailout if our parliament passed more cost-cutting measures. Our politicians delivered, with 199 PMs out of 300 voting yes. (and 43 getting expelled from their parties for refusing to agree, but that's irrelevant.) Then they asked for assurances that any government to emerge after the next elections would stick to the plan. Our politicians delivered, with both (current) big party leaders writing letters to assure them, again, that they'll do what they're told. And the Eurocrats still ask for more, before they commit to anything. Fuck them. Seriously, fuck them. This is the reason we rage.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Thanas »

Narkis wrote:I would have agreed with you if the foreign overseers had given any indication that they'd even give fixing Greece a try. I was one of the people who welcomed their arrival. And if they'd gone after all the things wrong with the country, they'd find quite a few people supporting them, even over our elected morons. But they haven't. Since day one, they've only concerned themselves with money. They've asked for higher taxes, lower salaries and pensions, a smaller public sector. They've been rather vocal about that. But not a single word about corruption, or waste, or the ridiculous benefits of some. They've consistently advocated for the easiest ways to raise, or save, lots of money, consequences be damned. If that's not an indication of why they're here, I don't know what is.
Cutting the public sector seems to be one of the better ways to combat waste. And i doubt they can really say much about Greece internal workings except in those general terms. EU treaty and all that. Though I would concur that they should involve themselves more, this needs a mandate by the Greek Government.
Then they asked for assurances that any government to emerge after the next elections would stick to the plan. Our politicians delivered, with both (current) big party leaders writing letters to assure them, again, that they'll do what they're told. And the Eurocrats still ask for more, before they commit to anything. Fuck them. Seriously, fuck them. This is the reason we rage.
Well, they've probably been burned with Greek assurances before. Like "this is our true economic data" or "our economy is healthy". Without those rather big lies they probably would not demand so much. Notice how other countries that do not have a history of lieing to the EU get off far more easier. Hate to tell you, but I wouldn't really believe anything a Greek politician says to me without a legally binding form either.

As to the article:
Papoulias went even further, denouncing Germany and Greece's north European creditors after Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, said that Greece must not turn into a "bottomless pit" for eurozone bailout funds and that Europe was better prepared than when the crisis erupted two years ago to cope with a Greek sovereign default.

"Who is Mr Schäuble to ridicule Greece? Who are the Dutch? Who are the Finns?" declared the Greek head of state. "I don't accept insults to my country by Mr Schäuble."
Schäuble is the guy who is paying for your debts, with among other things my taxpayer money. Papoulias should STFU, pronto.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:Cutting the public sector seems to be one of the better ways to combat waste.
Ha-ha-ha. In heavily socialized economies it also means kicking the guts out of any "economic growth", that paradigm of capitalism, at the very start. Which makes the whole measure a massive exercise in futility.
Thanas wrote:Well, they've probably been burned with Greek assurances before. Like "this is our true economic data" or "our economy is healthy". Without those rather big lies they probably would not demand so much. Notice how other countries that do not have a history of lieing to the EU get off far more easier. Hate to tell you, but I wouldn't really believe anything a Greek politician says to me without a legally binding form either.
EU corporations were perfectly happy with false data. In fact, they were involved in a process of kickbacks with the Greek corrupt officials. Which makes the whole idea of "trust" an exercise in futility, as Greece has a similar, if not a greater, reason to distrust the EU corporations and governments in entirety. And why not? After all, entering the EMU was a complete disaster for them and all of the growth (while they acted on ECB demands to cut taxes and shit) was pure speculation and bullshit. I doubt the Greeks (I don't mean the government jackasses and corporate bosses who profited on this) are genuinely happy with the outcome of this ten-year experiment.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Merkel depicted as Nazi in greek rag

Post by Thanas »

Stas Bush wrote:
Thanas wrote:Cutting the public sector seems to be one of the better ways to combat waste.
Ha-ha-ha. In heavily socialized economies it also means kicking the guts out of any "economic growth", that paradigm of capitalism, at the very start. Which makes the whole measure a massive exercise in futility.
Well, if you want to weed out corruption, you probably need to fire a lot of the people employed in the public sector.
EU corporations were perfectly happy with false data. In fact, they were involved in a process of kickbacks with the Greek corrupt officials. Which makes the whole idea of "trust" an exercise in futility, as Greece has a similar, if not a greater, reason to distrust the EU corporations and governments in entirety. And why not? After all, entering the EMU was a complete disaster for them and all of the growth (while they acted on ECB demands to cut taxes and shit) was pure speculation and bullshit. I doubt the Greeks (I don't mean the government jackasses and corporate bosses who profited on this) are genuinely happy with the outcome of this ten-year experiment.
I doubt Schäuble is a European corporation, nor are the German taxpayers European corporations. Which makes this a non-reply, a pure rant about EVIL EU CORPORATIONS. Whether this is accurate - it does in no way answer my point.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Post Reply