South African Poacher Gets Air-Jawsed

[Flagg]

As it is, he was doing to best to provide for his family doing something unrelated to sharks and was eaten alive in an extremely rare occurrence. The fact is that you risk death by any number of things any time you get into the ocean for any reason.

Uh, you did note last page where AD linked to several news articles from respected sources about how South African abalone poachers tend to be linked with international drug cartels, right? So, more likely than not, this guy wasn't doing this to "provide for his family" anymore than John Gotti, Al Capone, or Lord Gino were trying to provide for theirs.

I don't know about you, but if any one of them were to die in a marginally ironic way due to negligence in the commission of a crime, I'd at least view that as karma biting their ass, if not funny.

Right, they are so well off they can't even afford a boat.

[S.L.Acker]

For fuck's sake, when did this board become a bunch of Miss Manners hand-wringers? A poacher got killed by a wild animal. That's irony. That's blackly humorous. The world is a dangerous place and sometimes we laugh at the ways it finds to kill us.

If a robber got crushed by a bank vault door, it would be tragic, and it would also be hilarious.

It would be hilarious because there would be a direct correlation between the 2 and the person would be taking a stupid risk. Like my earlier example of a bullfighter being gored to death. If this guy had been out hunting sharks and got eaten by one due to him doing something dumb it would be funny. As it is, he was doing to best to provide for his family doing something unrelated to sharks and was eaten alive in an extremely rare occurrence. The fact is that you risk death by any number of things any time you get into the ocean for any reason.

Wow, I knew you were a dishonest prick with a serious set of double standards, but fuck that takes the cake. People were on me for suggesting these poaching morons buy a boat, but they ought to get out the tar and feathers for your brand of dishonesty.

Back on topic, I'm going to come out and say that this guy dying is actually funny. The shark leaping up, a perfect lens flare coming off a spray of water, some panicked scream, and then a spreading pool of blood. This shit should be in Jaws.

As it is, he was doing to best to provide for his family doing something unrelated to sharks and was eaten alive in an extremely rare occurrence. The fact is that you risk death by any number of things any time you get into the ocean for any reason.

Uh, you did note last page where AD linked to several news articles from respected sources about how South African abalone poachers tend to be linked with international drug cartels, right? So, more likely than not, this guy wasn't doing this to "provide for his family" anymore than John Gotti, Al Capone, or Lord Gino were trying to provide for theirs.

I don't know about you, but if any one of them were to die in a marginally ironic way due to negligence in the commission of a crime, I'd at least view that as karma biting their ass, if not funny.

Right, they are so well off they can't even afford a boat.

I've already shown that they could have bought a boat even if they made shit all for money, and these guys would have to be as stupid as you are to get as low a price as I was assuming.

[Flagg]

For fuck's sake, when did this board become a bunch of Miss Manners hand-wringers? A poacher got killed by a wild animal. That's irony. That's blackly humorous. The world is a dangerous place and sometimes we laugh at the ways it finds to kill us.

If a robber got crushed by a bank vault door, it would be tragic, and it would also be hilarious.

It would be hilarious because there would be a direct correlation between the 2 and the person would be taking a stupid risk. Like my earlier example of a bullfighter being gored to death. If this guy had been out hunting sharks and got eaten by one due to him doing something dumb it would be funny. As it is, he was doing to best to provide for his family doing something unrelated to sharks and was eaten alive in an extremely rare occurrence. The fact is that you risk death by any number of things any time you get into the ocean for any reason.

Wow, I knew you were a dishonest prick with a serious set of double standards, but fuck that takes the cake. People were on me for suggesting these poaching morons buy a boat, but they ought to get out the tar and feathers for your brand of dishonesty.

The following has yet to proven:

The risk of death by shark while poaching abalone is so great that to do so is incredibly stupid.

[Akhlut]

Right, they are so well off they can't even afford a boat.

That's not evidence for or against being wealthy, given that a boat would also put them under more intense scrutiny from authorities. Given that they were only doing it once a week, too, really makes it unlikely that they were doing this for their bread and butter, especially given that the other articles AD linked to state how ridiculously lucrative abalone poaching is in South Africa.

So, let's examine this: abalone poachers in South Africa often tend to be very rich in relative terms, are connected to the international drug trade, lie about how poor/rich they really are, and often use ruses to escape detection or to mitigate damage to profitability (such as driving shitty rustbuckets when transporting their poached abalone, so if those are confiscated it isn't a big loss of capital, as opposed to their luxury cars they drive otherwise).

Now, given that a great number of abalone poachers in South Africa try to mitigate losses, try not to attract to themselves, and proclaim their own austere lives in spite of being wealthy by South African standards, would it make more sense or less sense for them to not have a boat because they don't want to draw attention to themselves and possibly view it as an unnecessary money sink, or that guys who are so horrifically poor that they can't afford a boat only work for one day a week?

[Flagg]

Right, they are so well off they can't even afford a boat.

That's not evidence for or against being wealthy, given that a boat would also put them under more intense scrutiny from authorities. Given that they were only doing it once a week, too, really makes it unlikely that they were doing this for their bread and butter, especially given that the other articles AD linked to state how ridiculously lucrative abalone poaching is in South Africa.

So, let's examine this: abalone poachers in South Africa often tend to be very rich in relative terms, are connected to the international drug trade, lie about how poor/rich they really are, and often use ruses to escape detection or to mitigate damage to profitability (such as driving shitty rustbuckets when transporting their poached abalone, so if those are confiscated it isn't a big loss of capital, as opposed to their luxury cars they drive otherwise).

Now, given that a great number of abalone poachers in South Africa try to mitigate losses, try not to attract to themselves, and proclaim their own austere lives in spite of being wealthy by South African standards, would it make more sense or less sense for them to not have a boat because they don't want to draw attention to themselves and possibly view it as an unnecessary money sink, or that guys who are so horrifically poor that they can't afford a boat only work for one day a week?

I'll concede that. But one still has to prove that being in the ocean is inherently stupid considering the rarity of shark attacks.

[S.L.Acker]

The following has yet to proven:

The risk of death by shark while poaching abalone is so great that to do so is incredibly stupid.

Go swimming out in South African waters and get back to me on that one.

For my money guy gets eaten swimming in a well known shark feeding ground, seems like a stupid thing to do.

I'll concede that. But one still has to prove that being in the ocean is inherently stupid considering the rarity of shark attacks.

Did you ignore the area that he was eaten in, that's prime shark buffet territory. How about how often sharks strike on towed targets in that area of the ocean? That data good enough for you?

[Flagg]

The following has yet to proven:

The risk of death by shark while poaching abalone is so great that to do so is incredibly stupid.

Go swimming out in South African waters and get back to me on that one.

For my money guy gets eaten swimming in a well known shark feeding ground, seems like a stupid thing to do.

I'll concede that. But one still has to prove that being in the ocean is inherently stupid considering the rarity of shark attacks.

Did you ignore the area that he was eaten in, that's prime shark buffet territory. How about how often sharks strike on towed targets in that area of the ocean? That data good enough for you?

And yet shark attacks in that area were still incredibly rare. Odd, that.

[Akhlut]

I'll concede that. But one still has to prove that being in the ocean is inherently stupid considering the rarity of shark attacks.

Normally, yes. On any given coast in the world, yeah, getting killed by a great white is a very rare event.

However, the original article stated that they were killed near Dyer Island, which has a very large density of great whites, to the extent that it is a tourist attraction there.

[S.L.Acker]

And yet shark attacks in that area were still incredibly rare. Odd, that.

How many people do you think swim on the surface near Dyer Island on a yearly basis?

[Flagg]

And yet shark attacks in that area were still incredibly rare. Odd, that.

How many people do you think swim on the surface near Dyer Island on a yearly basis?

Provide some evidence showing the number.

[S.L.Acker]

Provide some evidence showing the number.

Sorry, no numbers exist, but if you think it's safe I know where you should take a vacation next.

[Flagg]

Provide some evidence showing the number.

Sorry, no numbers exist, but if you think it's safe I know where you should take a vacation next.

Concession accepted.

[S.L.Acker]

Concession accepted.

Saying that the data for how many shark attacks occur in high risk areas isn't something that can be found for an internet debate isn't a concession. I'm going to ask you point blank, would you swim the route those guys did?

[Flagg]

Concession accepted.

Saying that the data for how many shark attacks occur in high risk areas isn't something that can be found for an internet debate isn't a concession. I'm going to ask you point blank, would you swim the route those guys did?

Umm, yes it is, you're conceding that you can't prove your point. And would I swim there? No. Guy got eaten by a shark. See, now if it happened it would be funny because it's well known that a guy got eaten.

[Darth Fanboy]

And yet shark attacks in that area were still incredibly rare. Odd, that.

How many people do you think swim on the surface near Dyer Island on a yearly basis?

Provide some evidence showing the number.

Dyer Island is not open to the general public, it is a nature reserve. Hence shark attacks are going to be rarer because there aren't people swimming there at all, and anyone doing so isn't supposed to be there to begin with. Not to mention huge numbers of actively feeding Great White Sharks unlike anywhere else in the world.

[S.L.Acker]

Umm, yes it is, you're conceding that you can't prove your point. And would I swim there? No. Guy got eaten by a shark. See, now if it happened it would be funny because it's well known that a guy got eaten.

So you admit it's stupidly dangerous, but, because you hadn't heard of a death there before this, you don't find it funny. Way to keep this double standard going...

[Alyrium Denryle]

As it is, he was doing to best to provide for his family doing something unrelated to sharks and was eaten alive in an extremely rare occurrence. The fact is that you risk death by any number of things any time you get into the ocean for any reason.

Uh, you did note last page where AD linked to several news articles from respected sources about how South African abalone poachers tend to be linked with international drug cartels, right? So, more likely than not, this guy wasn't doing this to "provide for his family" anymore than John Gotti, Al Capone, or Lord Gino were trying to provide for theirs.

I don't know about you, but if any one of them were to die in a marginally ironic way due to negligence in the commission of a crime, I'd at least view that as karma biting their ass, if not funny.

I dont think he lets evidence get in the way of his hypocrisy or personal vendettas.

Considering the rarity of shark attacks compared to the commonness of snake bites, yes the cobra bite would be funny.

Ah yes. Proof you know nothing, and your logic is reversed. Snake bites are common for different reasons, depending on the type of snake and where you are. Most accidental snake bites happen in the third world because people walk around barefoot (because they cannot afford shoes) and step on one. Or they roll over on one in their sleep (depending on the type of snake). Or they work in a plantation that has arboreal vipers that are nearly invisible everywhere, and these snakes like to go for the face. These bites are tragic, because they are legitimate accidents that the people involved have no control over.

However:

If you see the snake, and dont mess with the snake, your bite probability is Zero. Also, if you stay out of environments where snakes like to live, your bite probability is significantly reduced.

If however you see the snake, and mess with it, you are very very likely to get bitten.

You will see that depending on the causal chain that leads to a snake encounter, the probability of being bitten can be vastly different. It is doing bad math to just multiply the number of snake bites by the number of people who live around snakes, assume everyone has the same bite probability and call it a day. Different groups and different sets of behaviors modify that probability. What you actually have is a set of probabilities that you average together to get the "snake bites are relatively common" pseudostatistic you just used.

You keep ignoring the incredible rarity of being attacked by a shark, so who's the liar exactly? And the profile of a seal is better embodied by that of a paddling surfer waiting for a wave (surfers are the most common GW attack victims as well) so I bet you just splooge with glee every time one of them gets eaten, right?

No. I am not ignoring it at all. It is just bad statistics to use those numbers in this case. There are a lot of people who swim. Relatively few shark bites. Ok. But that does not mean that everyone out there swimming has an equal chance of being bitten by a shark. As you admit, surfers are far more likely to get bitten by a shark. However, surfing beaches are not where great whites hunt. Surfers look like a seal, but great whites do not hunt near tourist beaches. The sharks that hit them are sharks moving between their usual hunting areas, making attacks of opportunity.

As I have mentioned before: Surfers have a sort of group-ethos that accepts the risk of shark attack. In much the same way that biologists working with venomous snakes have a professional ethos that accepts the risk of snake bite, and sky divers accept the risk of a parachute malfunction. They are not being negligent, but have rationally considered the risk vs the benefit to their quality of life, and they do not take extra risks on top of the ones they already face. In fact, they take steps to reduce the risks they face as much as they can. Sky divers have backup parachutes, surfers learn how to fight off a shark if they find themselves in the jaws of one, and surf where life guards are on duty and can offer aid. Biologists use specialized equipment like snake tongs and transparent tubes to reduce their risk of a bite (or essentially vaccinate against snake bite with sub-lethal doses of venom). I neither feel glee or sadness when these things happen. Perhaps a touch of pity for the bad luck. They accept a risk, but are not cavalier with that risk.

These poachers were at a seal colony. Cape fur seals are what great white's prey on. So there are a LOT of sharks, and they are hunting. A snorkeler with their swim fins and other gear does resemble a seal from below. Maybe not as well as a surfer, but it depends on the species of seal too. There are two basic body types for a seal, depending on the species. You have the chunky seals like elephant seals, harbor seals etc, and more lithe seals like fur seals and sea lions. Both of which great white's find tasty. The former resembles a surfer fairly closely, the later resembles a diver more closely.

Something you also have to understand is that great white's hunt seals in a band of depth. Basically, between the shelf of the islands, and really really deep water. Fur seals come in from feeding, hit that band, and dive for the bottom, only coming up to breath. The sharks wait there, and hit them as they do so. Most often, they are taking young, sick, injured, and malnourished seals who do not have the stamina to do this, and are forced to stay at the surface. What were these guys doing? They were swimming through that entire zone, at the surface, at low speed. In effect, they looked exactly like the sort of prey a shark finds the most enticing. They also panicked. So they did all of that, and when a shark did approach, they thrashed around like an injured or otherwise distressed seal. This only increased the likelihood of being attacked further.

None of these guys were poor m(as I have already proven), they could have avoided all of this with a god damn boat. They ignored their government's warnings about how to avoid being a human chum slick. They were fucking negligent.

Do you still think that their probability of being hit was the same as someone wading waste deep on a tourist beach? Or even the same as a surfer?

And yet shark attacks in that area were still incredibly rare. Odd, that.

Because Dyer Island is not a place people swim, dumbfuck. The tourist beach three miles away is where people swim, and where the per capita incident of shark attack is vanishingly low.

A) The area is a nature preserve
B) The place is obviously stupid dangerous to swim in, because there are great white sharks Everywhere, and they are all hunting
C) See above about general vs subgroup probability.

[Alyrium Denryle]

On more thing. I forgot to address it directly:

Flagg, your premise, as I understand it, is that if a relatively common thing happens to someone (the snake bite example) then it is funny.
However, if a person takes a rare thing, and does something that increases the probability of said thing happening through stupidity, then it is not funny?

Could you clarify that? It just does not make sense to me... It seems to me that someone who makes a rare thing virtually inevitable through stupidity ought be funnier than a common every day mishap befalling someone.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I'll concede that. But one still has to prove that being in the ocean is inherently stupid considering the rarity of shark attacks.

It is not being in the ocean that is inherently stupid. It is what you do in the ocean, and where you are in the ocean that makes it stupid.

Illustrative example: If I am just swimming along minding my own business off the coast of Florida, the chance that I will be attacked by a tiger shark is fairly rare, and I am not doing anything stupid. However, if I go to an area where tiger sharks are known to congregate (like albatross nesting islands during fledging season) and I have marinated myself in chum, then it is virtually guaranteed that I will be ripped to pieces by rows of razor sharp teeth.

See how that works?

[Flagg]

I think I'll go ahead and concede to most of the points you raised, however I still do not find it funny. Proving once again that humor is subjective.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I think I'll go ahead and concede to most of the points you raised, however I still do not find it funny. Proving once again that humor is subjective.

There we go. And I wont argue with you on the subjective nature of humor. Mine tends to be a sort of Court of Miracles sense of humor (Hunchback of Notre Dame, a gallows down in the sewer/catacombs). Other people vary.

[Anguirus]

Alyrium is definitely a good bit sicker than me, but even I got a chuckle out of this one. And then one from the six pages of moral argument.