Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Ralin » 2020-10-12 06:21am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-10-12 05:26am
Yeah - but that would ironic, a bunch of anti-government types relaying on a presidential pardon and/or support...
It fits. The presidential pardon is an arbitrary power kinda outside the normal system. And the president wielding it is, uhm. Not normal. And could be credibly believed to be on the militias' side.

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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Civil War Man » 2020-10-12 12:16pm

Broomstick wrote:
2020-10-12 05:26am
Yeah - but that would ironic, a bunch of anti-government types relaying on a presidential pardon and/or support...
Only if you take them at their word at them being "anti-government" and not "anti-government-that-doesn't-let-us-kill-or-enslave-people-we-hate"

Kind of like how Confederate apologists call themselves the side of "States' Rights" when the slavers were willing and eager to bring the full force of the federal government to bear against anyone who did not support the continuation and expansion of slavery.

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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Formless » 2020-10-12 03:42pm

If I remember correctly, the definition of kidnapping used by most states actually doesn't require the abduction to take place in their state. All it requires is that the person restrain the victim against their will. If you abduct someone in one state, the other state can absolutely charge you with kidnapping themselves specifically because, frankly, that's precisely what human traffickers do all the goddamn time. Federal prosecutors can always get involved if they want to, of course, but they don't have to, and if the state government doesn't trust the Feds to prosecute, they can bring charges in their own state. In fact, I think that's the normal way its done: the state brings the kidnapping charges, the Feds bring the human trafficking charges, and the state where it happened in brings the attempted murder charges because these assholes were planning on using bombs. The laws were written this way specifically because the states know how kidnappers think. No loophole. Just a fast track to state penitentiary.

The funny thing about the Presidential pardon is that it can only be used to pardon Federal crimes. If you are charged with a felony by the states, only that state can pardon you. And the individual states handle pardons differently from the Feds. Which would be a serious failure to do their research if that was what they were thinking when they added crossing the state line to their plan.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by bilateralrope » 2020-10-12 04:48pm

Another thing I've heard is that, by making this a Federal crime, these idiots put the death penalty on the table. Because Michigan doesn't have the death penalty, but Federal law does.
Broomstick wrote:
2020-10-12 05:26am
Yeah - but that would ironic, a bunch of anti-government types relaying on a presidential pardon and/or support...
It would be a bunch of people thinking they are liberating Michigan thinking they could get support from the president who tweeted “LIBERATE MICHIGAN!” in response to lockdowns. Though the support they were expecting is probably Trump getting Barr to prevent any prosecution.

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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Formless » 2020-10-12 04:59pm

Also if I recall correctly, another way it can be handled is that one state makes the arrest on behalf of the state where the crime was committed. They then either perform the trial under the laws of the prosecuting state, or they can actually extradite the prisoner to the prosecuting state for trial. Crossing state lines to avoid prosecution simply does not work. The states have made certain that it cannot.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Broomstick » 2020-10-12 05:04pm

bilateralrope wrote:
2020-10-12 04:48pm
Another thing I've heard is that, by making this a Federal crime, these idiots put the death penalty on the table. Because Michigan doesn't have the death penalty, but Federal law does.
Yep, I brought that up earlier. Neither Michigan nor Wisconsin have the death penalty.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-10-12 07:41pm

That being said, the death penalty almost certainly won't be applied for conspiracy charges.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Elfdart » 2020-10-12 08:30pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2020-10-12 07:41pm
That being said, the death penalty almost certainly won't be applied for conspiracy charges.
Certainly not by Trump's "justice" department. Remember, his AG was willing to perjure himself in front of the House judiciary committee when he claimed he knew nothing about the mob of armed neo-Nazis who turned up at the Michigan capitol to try to force Whitmer and the legislature to re-open the state. I knew at the time there would be more of this sort of thing when Barr not only denied that he knew of it, but refused to acknowledge that this kind of putsch (if it did happen -nudge nudge, wink wink) was of any concern to federal law enforcement.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-10-13 01:19pm

https://roanoke.com/news/local/fbi-agen ... 12930.html

Heh.

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) — Members of anti-government paramilitary groups discussed kidnapping Virginia’s governor during a June meeting in Ohio, an FBI agent testified Tuesday during a court hearing in Michigan.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Broomstick » 2020-10-13 04:30pm

So... multi-state conspiring. You know, they really have to get these guys under control before someone other than them gets hurt or killed.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Simon_Jester » 2020-10-14 04:54am

Sadly, it's not gonna happen until someone with actual directing authority orders the machinery of the state's security organs to systematically take the far-right movements apart. Which won't happen under the Trump administration for several obvious reasons.

I very much hope Biden does so, because otherwise we're headed for a long round of terrorism that mysteriously "no one can do anything about."
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Gandalf » 2020-10-14 05:57am

I couldn't even be a Biden thing. It would take a generation of effort, if only to slowly erode their sympathy within law enforcement.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by Solauren » 2020-10-14 08:13am

Gandalf wrote:
2020-10-14 05:57am
I couldn't even be a Biden thing. It would take a generation of effort, if only to slowly erode their sympathy within law enforcement.
That might be a an under-estimate of how long it will take.

The United States was founded on a massive criminal act (rebellion), that has been heavily glorified in the history books and American culture, with the lead up and political efforts that preceded it heavily glossed over.

Many of these groups view themselves as acting in the same vein as the founding fathers. They see everyone that has political views differing from them in the same vein as King George and his government; heavy handed tyrants that need to be removed from power, put on trial, and then executed.

Follow that up by the glorification of a lot of violence in American History ("Cowboys and Indians", "Remember the Almo", "the South shall rise again"), and you get kids growing up thinking the answer to government actions they don't like is to fight back with firearms and acts of rebellion.

Then you add in people with mental health problems, economic problems, and the like and well.....

Single generation effort? More like a multi-generational effort during and after a massive overhaul of the United States from the ground up.
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Re: Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Start Civil War

Post by PainRack » 2020-10-17 01:32pm

A Wichita man has been arrested on suspicion of threatening to kidnap and kill Wichita Mayor Brandon Whipple over frustrations with the city’s mask ordinance, the mayor and police said Friday afternoon.

Meredith Dowty, 59, was booked into Sedgwick County Jail at 6:05 p.m., Friday, booking reports show. Police confirmed he is the suspect and said he could face a charge of criminal threat.

Whipple said he had been read a series of text messages received by another city official that asked about Whipple’s address and contained a detailed threat against his life.

The apparent motive was the suspect’s opposition to “masks and tyranny,” Whipple said.

“He said he was going to kidnap me and slash my throat and he needed my address because I needed to see the hangman — me and everyone who, something about tyranny,” Whipple said.


“It sounded like the person was very upset about pretty much mask mandates and he said something about not being able to see his mother because of COVID restrictions on elderly homes.”

Wichita police spokesman Charley Davidson confirmed that the department is investigating the threats and that so far, no other local officials are believed to have been targeted.

The suspect is a well-known local musician who performs under the name “Cathead” and has played numerous gigs in the Wichita bar and nightclub scene, said Joe Stumpe, a musician and former Eagle reporter.

He plays guitar and harmonica, Stumpe said.


In July, Whipple proposed and shepherded a city ordinance that requires protective face coverings to be worn in most public settings in an attempt to prevent the spread of the coronavirus that has caused the COVID-19 pandemic.

That ordinance is extremely unpopular with a segment of Wichita society who showed up in force Sept. 8. At that council meeting, 120 people spoke for about seven hours in opposition to the mask mandate.

Many of the speakers said their resistance is rooted in their belief that the mask mandate violates their constitutional rights or religious beliefs.

Whipple has been an online target of local anti-mask activists after he pushed for the city to implement a citywide mask requirement as COVID-19 cases surged ahead of the Fourth of July weekend. He said he believes the man’s threat was credible and that he will have an increased security presence around his home to protect him and his family.

“This wasn’t just some guy popping off on social media,” Whipple said. “He contacted someone that knows where I live that apparently he thought would give him my address.”

The threat has similarities to a recently foiled plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, who was targeted by at least eight individuals for her support of COVID-19 restrictions. Twenty felon charges have been filed against persons involved in that plot who were affiliated with a right-wing militia group, Wolverine Watchmen.

Those suspects are accused of conspiring to kidnap Whitmer and possibly put her on trial for “treason” in a show-court.

https://www.kansas.com/news/politics-go ... 13655.html
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