USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

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USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-10-09 05:17pm

Turkey says its ground forces have crossed the border into northern Syria, after it began a military operation against Kurdish fighters on Wednesday

A spokesperson for the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said the airstrikes have caused "a huge panic among people of the region."

There are reports a Kurdish fighter has been killed and six others wounded, a Syrian war monitor said.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced his country had begun an incursion into Syria.

Turkish reports claim suspected Syrian Kurdish forces across the border in Tal Abyad are being shelled by artillery units.

President Donald Trump says the U.S. does not endorse Turkey's assault on northern Syria and has made it clear to Ankara that it's incursion against Kurdish fighters who helped the U.S. battle the Islamic State is a "bad idea."

In a statement Wednesday, Trump said no American soldiers are in the area being invaded. Earlier, Trump ordered U.S. forces out of the area, prompting criticism that he was abandoning an American ally.

Trump says he does not want the U.S. to fight "these endless, senseless wars."

He says he will hold Turkey to its commitment to protect civilians and religious minorities, including Christians, and ensure the invasion does not create a humanitarian crisis. He also says Turkey must make sure that IS fighters held captive in Syria remain detained.
Link.
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2019-10-09 09:34pm

Just. I'm just gonna post this here.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by mr friendly guy » 2019-10-10 02:34am

So what's going to happen to all those ISIS fighters? There is going to be a concern if things get hot, those fighters can escape in the confusion.
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Zinegata » 2019-10-10 02:47am

mr friendly guy wrote:
2019-10-10 02:34am
So what's going to happen to all those ISIS fighters? There is going to be a concern if things get hot, those fighters can escape in the confusion.
The area isn't really an ISIS hotbed to begin with. The "terrorists" there are instead mainly the PKK, who are often wrongly reported as being anti-ISIS, but only because they were at various points cooperating with the US despite also cooperating with ISIS.

It's very much a situation where people reporting the news have very little grasp - and indeed very little interest in grasping - the actual situation on the ground in favor of easier headlines.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by wautd » 2019-10-10 04:57am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2019-10-09 05:17pm
He says he will hold Turkey to its commitment to protect civilians and religious minorities, including Christians, and ensure the invasion does not create a humanitarian crisis.
That's pretty naive judging what Turkey already did in Afrin

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Tribble » 2019-10-10 07:20am

Zinegata wrote:
2019-10-10 02:47am
mr friendly guy wrote:
2019-10-10 02:34am
So what's going to happen to all those ISIS fighters? There is going to be a concern if things get hot, those fighters can escape in the confusion.
The area isn't really an ISIS hotbed to begin with. The "terrorists" there are instead mainly the PKK, who are often wrongly reported as being anti-ISIS, but only because they were at various points cooperating with the US despite also cooperating with ISIS.

It's very much a situation where people reporting the news have very little grasp - and indeed very little interest in grasping - the actual situation on the ground in favor of easier headlines.
Speaking of having a very little grasp on reality, one of Trump’s reasons for abandoning the Kurds.... is that they wdidntbhelp the US with Normandy in WW2???
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by wautd » 2019-10-10 07:23am

Tribble wrote:
2019-10-10 07:20am
Zinegata wrote:
2019-10-10 02:47am
mr friendly guy wrote:
2019-10-10 02:34am
So what's going to happen to all those ISIS fighters? There is going to be a concern if things get hot, those fighters can escape in the confusion.
The area isn't really an ISIS hotbed to begin with. The "terrorists" there are instead mainly the PKK, who are often wrongly reported as being anti-ISIS, but only because they were at various points cooperating with the US despite also cooperating with ISIS.

It's very much a situation where people reporting the news have very little grasp - and indeed very little interest in grasping - the actual situation on the ground in favor of easier headlines.
Speaking of having a very little grasp on reality, one of Trump’s reasons for abandoning the Kurds.... is that they wdidntbhelp the US with Normandy in WW2???
That man appears to be insane. Or at least having the mental capacity of a 5 year old

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by mr friendly guy » 2019-10-11 07:25am

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50271.html
Turkey’s president has threatened to send millions of Syrian refugees to Europe in retaliation for stinging world criticism of his military operation in northern Syria that has left 17 civilians dead, including several children.

Lashing out at the European Union and others that joined a global chorus of condemnation, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned he would “open the gates” if anyone called his offensive “an invasion”.

<snip>
Well I am sure this will help the Alt Right (sarcasm).
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Eulogy » 2019-10-11 03:49pm

Hahaha, Turkey's not cowing anybody with their little tantrum over their spade being a called a spade. You want to drag Europe into your mess, Turkey? Go ahead, I'm sure nothing will come of it.
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Zinegata » 2019-10-13 11:30pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-10-10 07:20am

Speaking of having a very little grasp on reality, one of Trump’s reasons for abandoning the Kurds.... is that they wdidntbhelp the US with Normandy in WW2???
Most of history is just bullshit to justify present policy anyway. If history really determined present policy, then why the hell is America most closely allied to the country it originally went to war with for independence? Shouldn't America also be France's eternal friend for helping them win the said war for independence?

History is just talking points for political rhetoric.

The icky reality of the situation here is that the US was primarily supporting the PKK (and its YPG offshoot), which had been a terrorist organization since the 1980s and had targeted not only Turkey, but also many of their fellow Kurds. That's why the PKK is now largely discredited among Kurds, who primarily support the more moderate HDP.

Unfortunately, most Western media assume that the Kurds are a monolithic group, and so assume that the PKK are some brave anti-ISIS fighters rather than being a bunch of terrorists who had been attacking their fellow Kurds for the past 30 years.

In reality the Kurdish group that had the most anti-ISIS fighting experience is the Iraq-based KDP. They're the guys who held off ISIS while the Iraqi army ran and abandoned Mosul. Ironically, the KDP is actually backed by Turkey, but the PKK happily takes advantage of the Western media's ignorance to pretend they're also brave anti-ISIS fighters, when in reality they actually did very little fighting against ISIS and mainly played up their anti-ISIS credentials to get money from the US for their bigger fight against Turkey and the more moderate Kurds.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Zinegata » 2019-10-13 11:32pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2019-10-11 07:25am
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50271.html
Turkey’s president has threatened to send millions of Syrian refugees to Europe in retaliation for stinging world criticism of his military operation in northern Syria that has left 17 civilians dead, including several children.

Lashing out at the European Union and others that joined a global chorus of condemnation, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned he would “open the gates” if anyone called his offensive “an invasion”.

<snip>
Well I am sure this will help the Alt Right (sarcasm).
Around half to two-thirds of Syria's population has already left, and a substantial proportion went to Europe. This is a largely empty threat - the horse so to speak has already bolted.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Mange » 2019-10-14 02:31pm

Zinegata wrote:
2019-10-13 11:32pm
mr friendly guy wrote:
2019-10-11 07:25am
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50271.html
Turkey’s president has threatened to send millions of Syrian refugees to Europe in retaliation for stinging world criticism of his military operation in northern Syria that has left 17 civilians dead, including several children.

Lashing out at the European Union and others that joined a global chorus of condemnation, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned he would “open the gates” if anyone called his offensive “an invasion”.

<snip>
Well I am sure this will help the Alt Right (sarcasm).
Around half to two-thirds of Syria's population has already left, and a substantial proportion went to Europe. This is a largely empty threat - the horse so to speak has already bolted.
It's not an empty threat: There are 3.6 million registered Syrian refugees in Turkey and it's those refugees that Erdogan explicitly has threatened to let into the EU. Under a deal made with Turkey, the EU is paying Turkey billions of Euros in financial aid for various projects for the Syrian refugees.

Also, it's not only the Kurds that were betrayed. In the SDF, there are other groups as well such as Assyrian/Syriac Christians.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Juubi Karakuchi » 2019-10-14 03:02pm

Assad has joined forces with the Kurds, as of late on Sunday night.
Syrian regime troops enter Kurdish territory after deal aimed at pushing back Turkish offensive as US signals full withdrawal

Syrian government forces have entered several towns in the Kurdish-held areas of northern Syria for the first time in five years, as they advance on Turkish forces in the country, after striking a deal with the Kurds to halt Ankara’s offensive.

According to Syria’s state news agency, SANA, regime troops moved into Kurdish-held Tabqa town in Raqqa province, once home to the capital of the Isis caliphate.

SANA added that they would also assume control of an airbase in the town, which lies just over 100km south of the border with Turkey, and a string of nearby villages.

Government forces had also entered the northern town of Tal Tamr, some 150km to the east and along a key main highway that crosses northeastern Syria, state media earlier reported.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, meanwhile, said regime troops have moved into Ain Essa, a town that lies approximately between the two and is home to a sprawling displacement camp holding families affiliated with Isis.

The game-changing deal between the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) and the regime was struck late Sunday as the United States, once the SDF's key ally in the battle against Isis, announced it was heading towards a full military withdrawal from Syria, triggering cries of betrayal.

Washington signalled Sunday it would pull out all remaining 1,000 troops within the coming days.

Late Sunday the Kurdish-led authority said it was forced to look for ways to protect the region, calling the deal with Assad a “temporary” emergency military agreement.

It will allow government forces to enter border areas from the Syrian-Kurdish held cities of Manbij to Derik in the northeast: a 850km stretch of land.

“The understanding on the protection of the border between the SDF and the Syrian army is purely military and does not address the status of self-administration,” a statement read.

However, the deal awards President Assad a significant swath of land that the regime has not had control over for five years. It could also see direct confrontations between Turkish forces and Syrian regime soldiers.

Russia, which brokered the agreement and is a key military ally of the Syrian regime, warned all sides on Monday to avoid actions that could escalate the situation and damage the political process.

On Monday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan signalled Turkish troops and their Syrian opposition allies are ready to launch an assault on Manbij.

He added that Turkey's aim would be to return the city to Arab populations whom he said were its rightful owners.

At least 60 civilians, including 21 children have been killed and 130,000 people have been displaced since Turkey launched a cross border incursion on Wednesday.

According to the SOHR, Turkish forces and its Syrian rebel allies now control a 220km-long stretch along the border and are still pounding north-east Syria from the air and the ground.

Mr Erdogan has said the operation aims to neutralise the Kurdish YPG militia, the main element of the SDF, which was the key US partner in dismantling the jihadist “caliphate” set up by Isis militants in Syria.

Ankara views the YPG as a terrorist group because of its links to guerrillas waging an insurgency in southeast Turkey.

Turkey's incursion has been met with searing international condemnation, as states fear it could cause a humanitarian catastrophe, the mass displacement of civilians and the resurgence of Isis.

Germany, France and the Netherlands have already halted arms sales to Ankara over the assault.

On Monday France’s foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian called for a European Union-wide arms embargo.

The US, meanwhile, is expected to push ahead proposed sanctions as early as this week.

US Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said Trump had authorised "very powerful" sanctions targeting Turkey.

On Sunday, Mr Trump said he was working on them with members of Congress.

But critics have also accused Mr Trump of "greenlighting" Turkey's offensive when he announced a week ago that the US would pull back troops from Syria and not hinder an imminent Turkish offensive.

President Trump has since repeatedly denied he approved the offensive and has batted off global criticism he abandoned his Kurdish allies, maintaining he wants to bring US troops home and to “end the endless wars”.

On Sunday Defence Secretary Mark Esper said that President Trump had directed the 1,000 US troops in northern Syria to begin pulling out "as safely and quickly as possible."

“We have American forces likely caught between two opposing advancing armies and it's a very untenable situation," Esper said.

There are fears that an escalation in the conflict could allow Isis to regroup.

The SDF is currently holding some 12,000 captured Isis fighters, of whom around 1,000 are from European countries.

They are also holding tens of thousands of family members.

On Sunday, nearly 800 people broke out of a displacement camp in Ain Essia holding tens of thousands of people affiliated with Isis.

There are fears about some 70,000 people, including foreigners, held in al-Hol camp further east, after detainees staged uprisings over the weekend.

it is not clear whether Syrian government troops will take over the camps.

Mr Trump tweeted on Sunday night that Europe had to take back its nationals:

"The US has the worst of the ISIS prisoners. Turkey and the Kurds must not let them escape," he wrote. "Europe should have taken them back after numerous requests. They should do it now. They will never come to, or be allowed in, the United States!"
I'm not too surprised by this. Assad wasn't strong enough to take Rojava back by himself, so he was likely to try to cut a deal with the SDF. Turkey has now conveniently presented itself as a common enemy.

I do not blame the SDF for this, not one bit. But one wonders just how far this will go.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-10-14 04:40pm

Ever since the US left the Kurds hanging in the wind during the Bush I administration I've been boggled that any Kurds have trusted the US since.

Trump cut the legs out from under people who were supposed to be our allies (although I never had the illusion that Kurds were unanimous on the subject) and is apparently planning to use that as an excuse to try to gut the Turkish economy.

Holy shit, after this it would not surprise me if NO ONE trusts the US for anything and starts throwing in with Russia, China, and whoever else looks like they can lend power to an alliance. I know Trumpists who have declared for years we don't need the rest of the world - as they drive their foreign built vehicles around, buy clothing made in third world, and play with electronic toys made overseas. Deluded fools, all, and they'll pull the rest of us down when they drown.

Goddamn, it's only took a half century but I'm finally becoming cynical....
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Nicholas » 2019-10-14 04:53pm

This may well be bad policy, although with the US self sufficient on oil I am inclined to paraphrase Bismark, "all of the Middle East isn't worth the bones of one Iowa pilot".

I do want to know where the idea that the US betrayed the Kurds comes from though. In order to betray them we have to have promised them something. Under the US Constitution no one has the right to make long term promises in the US's name without the consent of the Senate. So whoever made it possible for the US to "betray" the Kurds was acting in violation of US law.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2019-10-14 05:27pm

Nicholas wrote:
2019-10-14 04:53pm
This may well be bad policy, although with the US self sufficient on oil I am inclined to paraphrase Bismark, "all of the Middle East isn't worth the bones of one Iowa pilot".

I do want to know where the idea that the US betrayed the Kurds comes from though. In order to betray them we have to have promised them something. Under the US Constitution no one has the right to make long term promises in the US's name without the consent of the Senate. So whoever made it possible for the US to "betray" the Kurds was acting in violation of US law.

Nicholas
They trusted us to not leave them to ethnic cleansing by Turkey. That isn't a treaty, it's an understanding between human beings, something that is apparently foreign to you.
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Juubi Karakuchi » 2019-10-14 06:44pm

Broomstick wrote:
2019-10-14 04:40pm
Ever since the US left the Kurds hanging in the wind during the Bush I administration I've been boggled that any Kurds have trusted the US since.

Trump cut the legs out from under people who were supposed to be our allies (although I never had the illusion that Kurds were unanimous on the subject) and is apparently planning to use that as an excuse to try to gut the Turkish economy.

Holy shit, after this it would not surprise me if NO ONE trusts the US for anything and starts throwing in with Russia, China, and whoever else looks like they can lend power to an alliance. I know Trumpists who have declared for years we don't need the rest of the world - as they drive their foreign built vehicles around, buy clothing made in third world, and play with electronic toys made overseas. Deluded fools, all, and they'll pull the rest of us down when they drown.

Goddamn, it's only took a half century but I'm finally becoming cynical....
I suspect you may be right, at least when it comes to Trump wanting to mess up Turkey. Apparently he's agreed to abandon a $100 billion trade deal over this.

There's been talk on the BBC tonight (among others) of the possibility of a full-scale war. I'm cautiously inclined to believe it, for one simple reason. Assad cannot back down and abandon the SDF (the Kurds and their allies) now. If he does, not only does he look weak, but he allows Turkey to establish what amounts to a colony of anti-Assad Syrians in Rojava. If that was remotely tolerable, he would not be taking these kinds of risks.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-10-14 06:59pm

Syria vs. Turkey in a full war would be exceptionally nasty, given how terrible the situation has been up until now. I suspect it would be a "no rules" type of conflict with poison gas, nukes if either side could get them, and on and on. We have already had poison gas, after all, and ethnic cleansing in Syria.

And we'd get to see it live via satellite phone or whatever. Honestly, I feel sick just thinking about it.
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-10-14 09:46pm

Bloody hell, what's more disturbing is if the Russians who have been propping up Assad with military aid get involved. Which makes me wonder just how crazy Erdoğan actually is.
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Zinegata » 2019-10-14 11:56pm

Mange wrote:
2019-10-14 02:31pm
It's not an empty threat: There are 3.6 million registered Syrian refugees in Turkey and it's those refugees that Erdogan explicitly has threatened to let into the EU. Under a deal made with Turkey, the EU is paying Turkey billions of Euros in financial aid for various projects for the Syrian refugees.
Except those refugees are not living in camps, they're already living in Turkey's urban areas. The people who wanted to actually go all the way to Europe have already done so.
Also, it's not only the Kurds that were betrayed. In the SDF, there are other groups as well such as Assyrian/Syriac Christians.
The PKK already largely destroyed all the other Syrian resistance groups in those areas. Again people really don't understand what's going on because you keep assuming that the Kurds are some monolithic group.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Zinegata » 2019-10-14 11:59pm

Broomstick wrote:
2019-10-14 06:59pm
Syria vs. Turkey in a full war would be exceptionally nasty, given how terrible the situation has been up until now. I suspect it would be a "no rules" type of conflict with poison gas, nukes if either side could get them, and on and on. We have already had poison gas, after all, and ethnic cleansing in Syria.

And we'd get to see it live via satellite phone or whatever. Honestly, I feel sick just thinking about it.
There won't be a war because Assad doesn't have the money to fight Turkey. He's being propped up entirely by Iran.

If a major war does start, it will be Turkey and Iran (or at least Iranian-backed militias) doing the fighting.

The thing is nobody really supports the PKK aside from the US. The Assadists/Iranians know the PKK have been playing both sides and have their own agenda, so as long as the Turks don't encroach outside of the PKK strongholds then don't expect the conflict to spread.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Zinegata » 2019-10-15 01:20am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
2019-10-14 05:27pm
They trusted us to not leave them to ethnic cleansing by Turkey. That isn't a treaty, it's an understanding between human beings, something that is apparently foreign to you.
It's way more complicated than that. Some Kurds in Turkey are not happy that the US backed Turkey in the 1980s, when Turkey was fighting a major insurgency against the PKK. But most Turkish Kurds have since disowned the PKK to their extremist targeting of their fellow Kurds. They instead now primarily support the HDP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%2 ... y_(Turkey)

Although the HDP is now facing the wrath of Erdogan, so things are changing.

Moreover it was Iraq which arguably committed the worse act of ethnic cleansing of Kurds, but the Iraqi Kurds (led by the KDP) were ironically supported by Turkey. These guys have a beef with the US for the aftermath of the Gulf War.

That's why, again, it's important to realize that the Kurds are not some monolithic group. Some are pro-Assad terrorists, others are actually Turks who are a recognized minority with political power, while others still are Iraqis who are backed by Turkey.

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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by madd0ct0r » 2019-10-15 02:50am

Zinegata, can you provide proof that the pkk targeted fellow kurds?

Because ive been following the slow movement to a kurdish state for some years, and this is the first ive heard that claim.

And frankly, i dont trust you on it.
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Mange » 2019-10-15 03:25pm

Zinegata wrote:
2019-10-14 11:56pm
Mange wrote:
2019-10-14 02:31pm
Also, it's not only the Kurds that were betrayed. In the SDF, there are other groups as well such as Assyrian/Syriac Christians.
The PKK already largely destroyed all the other Syrian resistance groups in those areas. Again people really don't understand what's going on because you keep assuming that the Kurds are some monolithic group.
While YPG makes up a considerable part of the Syrian Defense Force, it's an umbrella organization made up of various Kurdish militias, Assyrian/Syriac Christians (such as the Syriac Military Council), Arab groups and smaller number of Armenians etc.

No, I was not inferring that the Kurds are monolithic. However, in a greater context it's important to remember that there are other groups than Kurds living in those areas and who have been instrumental in defeating ISIS (and the Assyrian/Syriac relationship with Kurds hasn't always been without friction, for example).

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Ziggy Stardust
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Re: USA betrays the Kurds, Turkey attacks.

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2019-10-15 06:24pm

madd0ct0r wrote:
2019-10-15 02:50am
Zinegata, can you provide proof that the pkk targeted fellow kurds?

Because ive been following the slow movement to a kurdish state for some years, and this is the first ive heard that claim.

And frankly, i dont trust you on it.
I'm going to reiterate this request for proof from Zinegata. And additional proof of his repeated claim that "most" Kurds support the HDP over the PKK, because I haven't been able to find evidence of that on my own either. (It's kind of ironic how in one post Zinegata accuses everyone of treating the Kurds as a monolithic block, and then goes on to make a statement that treats them as a near-monolithic block opposed to the PKK...)

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