What About God Like Energy Beings?

[Chris Parr]

Okay, so in the TNG episode "Survivors" we meet Kevin Uxbridge, who seems like a perfectly ordinary old man, and his wife who seem to have miraculously survived massive orbital bombardment along with their home.

Later, we learn that Kevin is actually a Douwd, a powerful god like energy being, and that is wife and loving home are mere illusions he created to replace what he'd lost in the attack.

Moreover, we learn that Kevin took terrible vengeance on the aliens who attacked his world, totally obliterating every last one of them.

So what does this have to do with Star Wars vs. Star Trek? Just this, there are god like energy beings scattered all over the Star Trek galaxy, masquerading as mere mortals. And if the Imperials should incur their wrath by killing their friends and loved ones in a Base Delta Zero, the Imperials may find themselves eradicated. It's happened before, and it can happen again.

[bilateralrope]

Do those beings care about worlds that would have any value to the Empire ?

Because without the world having value, the Empire would leave it alone, thus not pissing off the god beings.

[Chris Parr]

That's just it, you never know where these god like energy beings are. They can be on any planet in the galaxy, so any planet the Imperials target might have one on it and that can be very bad for the Imperials.

[The Romulan Republic]

That and Q would fuck with the Empire just for fun or as part of his trial.

[bilateralrope]

That's just it, you never know where these god like energy beings are. They can be on any planet in the galaxy, so any planet the Imperials target might have one on it and that can be very bad for the Imperials.

So prove that they are likely to be on a planet that the Empire would have any interest in.

Because Q is the only one that seems to care about what happens outside the god beings little area of space. And Q is an exception for his kind, the rest of them just sit around not caring what happens to the rest of the galaxy.

[Chris Parr]

I can't. I can't disprove it either. It's an unknown.

[Chris Parr]

Which is kind of the point. The fact that you have no idea where these god like beings are likely to be makes trying to conquer this galaxy akin to marching across a mine field. You might make it across safely, but your chances are not good.

[bilateralrope]

All you need to do to prove it likely is point out one kind of god being doing stuff on one planet the Empire might have an interest in. Maybe the interest is because the planet has something valuable, maybe there is a colony of decent size. Military targets or manufacturing would make the Empire almost guaranteed to care. So, basically anything other than some uninhabited world or a small colony in the middle of nowhere. That shouldn't be a hard thing to do if these god beings care enough to get involved.

As for proof that they don't get involved, look at the Dominion. If god beings are a threat to the Empire, they would also be a threat to the Dominion for the same reason. But the only god beings to interfere with them were the Prophets. Who only cared about Bajor and preferred to send cryptic visions to doing anything. It took Sisko, their chosen emissary, putting himself in a situation where he would likely die if they did nothing before they took action. During the Cardassian occupation of Bajor the Prophets did nothing. So I can't see them doing anything against an Imperial Occupation.

Given how many god beings the TOS Enterprise ran into, I'd expect the Dominion to have run into quite a few. Without provoking them enough to be a problem for the Dominion.

[Chris Parr]

Did the Dominion ever perform a Base Delta Zero type operation?

As for where the godlike beings are likely to be, well, that depends on their individual tastes. Some might prefer the quiet, out of the way planets, while others would be more cosmopolitan. You'd never know because the god like being is masquerading as a mere mortal until something pushes him or her over the edge. As long as his circle of friends remains relatively safe he'll do nothing, even if his planet is conquered. After all, it really doesn't matter to him which government or kingdom or whatever claims the planet so long as they leave him and his friends in peace.

If you piss him off by committing global genocide on his world, however, you're done.

[bilateralrope]

Did the Dominion ever perform a Base Delta Zero type operation?

No. But the Empire isn't likely to perform many either.

As for where the godlike beings are likely to be, well, that depends on their individual tastes. Some might prefer the quiet, out of the way planets, while others would be more cosmopolitan.

Saying that is a bit dishonest when there is a very clear trend with the god beings. Every single one of them that I know of has lived in a place where the typical space faring Trek races rarely go, even ones who had previously visited Earth. Usually planets that were out of the way.

The closest to an exception are the Prophets and Q. For the Prophets, before DS9 started, their wormhole had only seen a single organic being. So, while the end of their wormhole was located in an inhabited system, the wormhole itself still renamed isolated. For Q, the majority of the Q also kept to themselves.

You're the one claiming that these god beings are a threat. All I see are beings that, while powerful, live in places that the Empire will probably ignore until after the war. Meaning they aren't a threat because they will be left alone.

Prove that there is even one living somewhere that will matter during the Empires invasion or shut up.

[The Romulan Republic]

Q meddles in outside affairs. The Prophets do as well. You acknowledged this. Is this the norm? Maybe not. But it is still valid to suggest that the Empire may fall afoul of such beings.

[Chris Parr]

I think you said it yourself. "Every single one of them that I know of has lived in a place where the typical space faring Trek races rarely go, even ones who had previously visited Earth"

That you know of—that means there are godlike beings that you don't know about. And you won't know about them either because they aren't going to flaunt their power. They'll live quietly among us with no one ever suspecting their true natures.

Again, look at the Uxbridges. When we first see them they appear to be an elderly couple. It's only toward the end of "Survivors" that Kevin's true nature is revealed. So that means he lived among the humans of Delta Rana IV for years without anyone ever suspecting his true nature. I think even his own wife never suspected.

Oh, and Delta Rana IV must have had some strategic value, or else the Husnock never would have attacked it.

So again, it's impossible to say where these unknown godlike beings may be because whenever they live among mortals they tend to fade into the background and not call attention to themselves.

[Chris Parr]

Also let's not forget the Organians. They may not destroy the Empire, but if it gets too destructive and they have to intervene they can render all of the Empire's super-duper weapons useless. They did it before to stop a war between the Klingons and the Federation—and an Imperial invasion would be way more destructive. So it's likely that the Organians would intervene again to stop the massive carnage that would go with an Imperial invasion.

[madd0ct0r]

are there any god like beings in star wars?

[The Romulan Republic]

The Force, if you subscribe to the idea that its sentient (personally I'd prefer not to).

[WATCH-MAN]

All you need to do to prove it likely is point out one kind of god being doing stuff on one planet the Empire might have an interest in.

Saying that is a bit dishonest when there is a very clear trend with the god beings. Every single one of them that I know of has lived in a place where the typical space faring Trek races rarely go, even ones who had previously visited Earth. Usually planets that were out of the way.

• From Memory Alpha: The Greek gods were a humanoid species, possessed of powerful psychokinetic abilities, that once visited the Mediterranean region of ancient Earth around 2700 BC.
  
  • • • • Conclusion: The species which pretended to be Gods in Greek around 2700 BC lived on Earth.
• From Memory Alpha: Q tried to prove the worth of Quinn's life by calling witnesses such as Isaac Newton, Maury Ginsberg, and William T. Riker, pointing out how Quinn had affected their lives for the better. For Newton, he jostled the tree before the apple fell, leading to the discovery of gravity; Maury so that he could get to Woodstock to save it and then live a successful life; saving Riker's ancestor, Thaddius, so that his descendant would be born and save the Federation from the Borg (and so that Q could insult him).
  
  • • • • Conclusion: The Q that referred to itself as Quinn was on Earth at least around 1687, 1864 and 1969.
• From Memory Alpha: In 2313 [the Douwd who referred to itself as Kevin Uxbridge] had been traveling on a ship at sea – taking the form of a thirty-three year old, penniless botany student – when he met a twenty-nine year old composer of Tao-classical music named Rishon. Though her parents disapproved of him, she was smitten with Kevin and proposed marriage to him two hours after they met. He put aside his powers and married Rishon; they would be married for fifty-three years. In 2361 – with Rishon 77 years old – the couple moved from the aquatic city New Martim Vaz on Earth to the Federation colony on Delta Rana IV to live out their final years together and to "fall in love all over again".
  
  • • • • Conclusion: The Douwd who referred to itself as Kevin Uxbridge lived on Earth from 2281 - 2361.
• From Memory Alpha: Amanda Rogers' parents were Q who had taken Human form and [lived] on Earth in Topeka, Kansas.
  
  • • • • Conclusion: Two other Q lived on Earth around 2351.

It is possible that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

[Ted C]

Okay, so in the TNG episode "Survivors" we meet Kevin Uxbridge, who seems like a perfectly ordinary old man, and his wife who seem to have miraculously survived massive orbital bombardment along with their home.

Later, we learn that Kevin is actually a Douwd, a powerful god like energy being, and that is wife and loving home are mere illusions he created to replace what he'd lost in the attack.

Moreover, we learn that Kevin took terrible vengeance on the aliens who attacked his world, totally obliterating every last one of them.

That's Uxbridge's story, anyway. Unfortunately, there's no way to confirm any of it. There's no physical evidence that the "Husnock" ever existed, let alone that he blew them away with an angry thought. The feats we did see him perform -- power enough to threaten a Galaxy-class starship, an assortment of illusions, and moving around in an intangible state -- are not nearly as impressive.

Everything else is based on the word of someone who is a self-described "being of disguises and false surroundings." I don't see why anyone should trust it. All we really know about that situation is that the "Douwd" got what he seemed to want: the Enterprise left him alone on Rana IV.

So what does this have to do with Star Wars vs. Star Trek? Just this, there are god like energy beings scattered all over the Star Trek galaxy, masquerading as mere mortals. And if the Imperials should incur their wrath by killing their friends and loved ones in a Base Delta Zero, the Imperials may find themselves eradicated. It's happened before, and it can happen again.

As always, being alien superbeings into the conflict is essentially conceding that the Federation, Klingon Empire, and similar powers in the Star Trek setting would be overmatched in a war against the Galactic Empire, so you have call in reinforcements that defy the known laws of physics.

[Chris Parr]

Then why was practically the entire planet a barren wasteland? Only the Uxbridgeses homestead seemed untouched. What happened to Rana IV if it wasn't attacked? What happened, if it wasn't the Husnock? Even if we say that Kevin was a creature of lllusions, does that discount his love for his wife? Or the rage and horror he felt when his planet was slaughtered? It seems to me that a being like that would take terrible vengeance on those who had done this.

I'm not saying these god like beings will step up and beat the Empire for the Federation. To them the rise and fall of a civilization is but a minor distraction to them. As long as you stick to the rules of engagement and leave civilian targets alone they're content to let things run their course.

Which brings us to the Empire, which is known for making examples of whole populations of civilians, like Alderaan and the Caamasi. If the Empire tries that kind of stunt on a world where a god like being is living incognito, that would be it. And there's no way of telling where a god like being may be, because he'll look and act just like any other mortal—until you piss him off by slaughtering his friends and loved ones. That is the very real danger that the Empire faces.

[Borgholio]

Why would the Empire need to make an example? They could overpower the Federation so easily that it would be a waste of time to make examples like that.

[Elheru Aran]

Why would the Empire need to make an example? They could overpower the Federation so easily that it would be a waste of time to make examples like that.

Just to be a devil's advocate... they could crush the Federation easily, sure. But what about the Klingons? Romulans? Dominion? Those could be crushed, but given their different philosophies, they would be a little less likely to roll over. It's quite possible the Empire may get fed up with constant nibbling and go 'okay, if you don't stop here's what will happen to your planets'. That is sort of what happened with Alderaan, after all...

[Borgholio]

I can see the Klingons going all fanatical and resorting to suicide attacks and terrorism...so yeah you could be right about some of them. But the Feds would probably just roll over once they lost a few fleets in a row.

[Ted C]

Then why was practically the entire planet a barren wasteland? Only the Uxbridgeses homestead seemed untouched. What happened to Rana IV if it wasn't attacked? What happened, if it wasn't the Husnock? Even if we say that Kevin was a creature of lllusions, does that discount his love for his wife? Or the rage and horror he felt when his planet was slaughtered? It seems to me that a being like that would take terrible vengeance on those who had done this.

There is no knowing why the planet was devastated. The only witness to what actually happened is not reliable. We don't even know how much of what the Enterprise crew saw was illusion. We don't know if he lived for decades as Kevin Uxbridge or just assumed the identity of one of the colonists who died. He could have destroyed the colony himself, for all we know.

There is no reason to trust that alien.

[The Romulan Republic]

I can see the Klingons going all fanatical and resorting to suicide attacks and terrorism...so yeah you could be right about some of them. But the Feds would probably just roll over once they lost a few fleets in a row.

I think the stereotype of the weak Federation that won't fight is highly overstated. There are plenty of cases of Starfleet officers defying absurd odds.

I'm particularly reminded of that bit that comes up from time to time about the Federation losing 900 billion people before surrendering to the Dominion (hypothetically).

I think that even if the Federation Council and President folded, a large number of officers would mutiny and continue fighting (basically the Marquis only more so).

Edit: I'm not saying they'd win, mind you. Just that a few losses won't make all of the Federation fold.

[Borgholio]

900 billion? Where did THAT come from?

[Eternal_Freedom]

DS9's "Statistical Probabilities" where Bashir and a few other genetically engineered folk come up with a way to accurately predict things. They get given Starfleet's latest intel and conclude that the Federation will be destroyed with 900 billion casualties...but that five generations later the salves on Earth would rise up, conquer the Dominion and reform the Federation.

Of course, how that's squares with Weyoun's stated plan just a few episodes prior to destroy EArth's population in order to pre-empt such an uprising is unclear.