SWvST: Gizmodo weighs in

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

What better way to end 2014 than by reigniting the classic debate?

Who Would Win in an All-Out Battle: Star Wars or Star Trek?

Rom Lokken - Quora
Filed to: hypotheticals

Today 2:20pm

A classic debate! Good or Evil? Chocolate or Strawberry? Star Trek or Star Wars (excluding the Death Star)? But unlike those timeless questions this one really does seem to have a compelling answer. And its not what the majority seem to think.

A few necessary caveats (take heed ye trolls):

1) Although it (should) hardly need saying—these are both completely fictional universes whose technology and scientific foundations are, at best, bolted on after the fact as part of the setting and/or necessary plot devices. This entire debate is like meaningfully debating the combat prowess of Unicorns vs. Dragons. But of course, we're going to do it anyway.

2) The goal is to assume the most favorable interpretations for each technology as demonstrated most coherently by each canon. Obvious mistakes (i.e using parsecs as a measure of time... Hello Han) or figures completely inconsistent with the results offered (Star Destroyers with power generation of 7.75 x 1024 W... only 100 times less than the sun!) will be ignored.

For those crying foul a Star Destroyer that needs that much power (to create the abilities displayed) would represent the most fantastic inefficiency ever conceived. Likewise, some of the energy readings suggested for Star Wars laser weapons would instantaneously vaporize any unshielded craft—not to mention the atmosphere in between them—in rather spectacular fashion. Nothing in the physical behavior of these weapons supports these values (for instance that Slave 1 has 64,000 GW lasers or 190 Megaton missiles. Never, in any battle, was a blast of that nature or kind observed).

Bottom line: All weapons and systems should be evaluated on how they actually perform as depicted in the canon as opposed to often innumerate and psuedo-scientific gibberish offered in support of them. That being said, where a vaguely credible explanation has been offered, it will generally be taken (i.e. lasers are lasers).

3) The treatment of technology dramatically complicates the task of comparison. Star Trek consciously attempted to provide at least some basis (however weak or novel) for the science behind their technology. Star Trek represents a technological utopia and was promoting the idea of a better future via modern technology. This is also evident in that the technology of Star Trek advances dramatically over the course of the various seasons (including referencing far future Star Trek timelines with mastery over time itself). Star Wars, on the other hand, makes no such claims and depicts an utterly static technological milieu in which no appreciable advances have been made (save perhaps the Death Star itself) in tens of thousands of years. In addition, Star Wars often offers little—if any—scientific explanation for its tech (Hyperspace—it's fast!). I am assuming the general tech capabilities of Trek as found as late as Voyager.

Now, those out of the way lets get to the point. This is not a close fight. Despite the desires of the many fans, the Star Trek universe is rife with economic, tactical, social, and technological superiority. Claims of Star Wars victories all seem to echo the Stalin-esque view that "Quantity has a Quality all its own." But this is profoundly misguided. Let's break down why.

Economic Factors

Star Wars population is very difficult to assess. Some estimates suggest a 1,000,000 world Empire. But the Galactic Senate depicts a vastly smaller political entity. According to Star Wars Wiki, the Empire was divided into units of 50 systems each with a senator. However, the Senate only has 2,000 members. Which means a galactic polity of 100,000 active members. This is still vastly greater than the Federation with something like 150 members and 1-5 thousand worlds.

However, the nature of this population is most important. The Empire, while having far larger population, appears weakly integrated. Entire populations (quite commonly) are depicted as isolated and poor. Basic farming or harvesting seems commonplace. Much of the population appears uneducated and even tribal. While the core worlds are densely populated, they are apparently completely dependent on agricultural and other products from the empire. This means Star Wars retains a traditional resource economy model.

Star Trek, by contrast, has matter/energy conversion. The Federation is deeply integrated with almost no poverty and a large decentralized membership of worlds. The importance of matter/energy conversion cannot be overemphasized. On a war footing, the only limits to the Federation's economic capacity is energy which is in vast supply in both universes.

In addition, each world is at least theoretically capable of self sufficiency. Although there still appears to be strategic resources in Trek (dilithium comes to mind), these are relatively limited and the series has routinely demonstrated that they can innovate when necessary around them. The greatest advantage of the Empire is size. But the small, highly integrated and economically more advanced Federation is similar to the inequality many leading nations in Earth's history have held over their more numerous adversaries. Numbers alone cannot determine the issue.

Social Factors

The Federation is a democracy with fully functioning representative government that has demonstrated unfailing resolve in the face of both invasion and subversion. A careful, adaptive, and strategic mindset is universally depicted with the Federation routinely tackling better armed and more numerous adversaries.

The Empire is a dictatorship deeply riven by insurrection and dissent. Entire planetary economies are in de facto revolt with the best technology of key defense companies is in the hands of the Rebellion (i.e. Incom). Control is maintained through direct rule via regional governors and is shaky enough that planetary obliteration is required in order to maintain control.

When pressed the Federation will coalesce (as it did with the Borg). Its unified tech basis and energy economy means perfectly fluid production and great adaptability. Individual initiative and problem solving is a Trek hallmark. Similar initiative in Star Wars is shown as being a quick way to a Force-induced death. Although both world have great diversity, the Empire is deeply racist and enforces a human-first ethic, which severely restricts the full participation of most of their Empires inhabitants. Star Trek has no such barriers.

Such social cooperation would present a huge propaganda advantage to Trek. Who could offer union to the vast, under-trodden alien masses and endless material support to the Rebellion.

Tactical Factors

Detection, Evasion, Range. These three elements spell the doom of the Empire. The sensors in Star Trek can discern the individual cellular make up of individuals on a planet from orbit, can detect ships from trillions of kilometers away (in other sectors) and can track and successfully target objects at ranges of hundred of thousands of kilometers in space.

By contrast, sensors on a Star Destroyer cannot even detect droids in a unshielded pod. They cannot track down individual aliens (say, Wookie) on a planet, and most combat occurs at visual range with a remarkable rate of misses.

Cloaking technology in Trek, which is effective against that milieu's vastly superior sensor Tech, would be an overwhelming advantage making most Trek vessels effectively invisible. Even without this, the range and accuracy of sensors means that Trek vessels could detect SW vessels at vast distances and engage them while remaining completely invisible. As modern fighter combat has routinely demonstrated the age of the dog fight is past. Long range detection and strike renders numbers almost meaningless. Like a modern F-22 (with nearly unlimited ammo), enemies inside the weapon envelop can be eliminated long before they can even bring their weapons to bare.

Weapon tech is also no contest. Photon torpedoes travel at warp speed. This means that they are unblockable by Star Wars vessels whose reaction time is such that skilled humans can provide superior guidance as compared to their computers. Photon torpedoes are matter/antimatter devices whose yields have been described as being able to wipe out cities with a single torpedo. Proton torpedoes are sublight (and slow) missiles that can destroy city blocks. Given that several laser shots and the impact of a vessel traveling at sublight was sufficient to destroy the shield generators on an Executor Class vessel, it is perfectly possible for Star Trek ships to target the shield of Star Destroyers from ranges well beyond the detection range of those ships—and then bombard them with total impunity.

Without going into the difficult discussion around energy outputs of beam weapons, Star Trek beams are computer controlled, use the vastly superior Trek sensors and computer systems, and have an output that has been described as being capable of destroying the entire surface of a planet. Turbo lasers (save and except the Death Star's) have limited firing arcs and, while incredibly numerous, are dramatically limited by poor fire control and range.

In Trek, it would be a foolish captain that would enter firing range but Trek Shielding has repeatedly encountered "laser" weapons and indicated that they posed little or no threat to the shield capacity of their vessels. On more than one occasion, Trek shields have resisted near-nuclear strikes, plasma blasts that have eradicated entire planetary installations, and torpedoes capable of reducing modern vessels into component atoms. Given the ability of small, unshielded craft to survive direct strikes from turbo laser batteries ,the shields of Trek could offer near complete shielding for all but the most intense fusillade.

On this note, much is made of the lack of fighters in Trek. One simple explanation is that such craft simply cannot survive when pitted against capital ship level phasers targeted by near-AI level computer and tracking systems. Put simply, what Trek ships aim at they hit. Nearly always. Small ships simply do not challenge large ships in Trek and with good reason.

Additionally, transporters have huge tactical advantages. Without shields and at distances of tens of thousands of kilometers, the Federation would be able to teleport fusion weapons directly into launch bays or engine rooms. Finally, warp capability means that Federation ships can travel faster than human reaction (which is apparently the benchmark for targeting in Star Wars). This means they can effectively move with impunity through the battle zone.

Bottom line, the sheer size of the Empire presents the most compelling threat to the Federation. But it is facing a small, tightly integrated, post-scarcity Federation possessed of ships with vastly greater tactical flexibility. The political attractions of the Federation are also not to be understated as political warfare is an area the Federation may be uniquely well positioned to capitalize on. If the Federation could survive long enough to ramp up to a war footing sheet, tactical advantages could prove more than a match for the Empire's vast numerical superiority.

Star Trek: 1, Star Wars: 0.

Gotta love clickbait and flawed analyses. Your thoughts?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Utter bollocks filled with Trek-wanker typical statements - his comment early on about how he'll accept the "lasers are lasers" argument is not a good sign. The unsupported claims are rife, and every one seems to take the least favourable interpretation of SW and the most favourable interpretation of Trek.

Not only are the claims unsupported, they're flat-out bollocks. his statement that " Small ships simply do not challenge large ships in Trek and with good reason" flat-out ignores the apparent effectiveness of the Defiant class, the Federation and Jem Hadar fighters int he Dominion War, and even the Klingon BoPs.

In other words, bullshit piled upon bullshit. Especially since he ignores the Death Star, which you can't do (it's right there in canon, twice, you have to account for it somehow). Even with this superbly Trek-favoured interpretation, I can still conceive of ways for the Empire to win: namely, use that massive numerical superiority (which the writer does at least acknowledge) and run straight for Earth, Vulcan, Andor and other Federation Core Worlds and start obliterating them from orbit and demanding Starfleet's surrender.

[Borgholio]

Gizmodo did the lazy route and just looked at the way things appear on the surface. I'm not going to rehash Mike Wong's entire ST vs SW section, but most of these claims made by Gizmodo can be debunked easily.

[Guardsman Bass]

I posted the links to Mike's stuff here over there in my comment. Some people have liked the comment, so maybe some folks will click through and realize the Gizmodo essay is stupid.

[darth_timon]

I would weigh in, but after debating with some pretty strong walls of ignorance on YouTube these past couple of days, I am not especially inclined to go through another head-against-wall episode. I wouldn't even waste time with them.

[Batman]

The sun has a power output of roughly 3.2 MW. Interesting.

[biostem]

Yeah - this comparison is just rife w/ inaccuracies - how many times have Star Trek sensors lacked the ability to see through apparently common mineral ores, or been unable to detect ships hiding in fairly plain sight?

Similarly, in the Star Wars universe, the Empire was able to build a planet busting weapon in secret, without impacting the economy or being found out until nearly complete.

Furthermore, there's practically no mention of the speed difference or simple logistic issues and fleet sizes.

I mean - photon torpedoes travel at warp speed? On-screen evidence clearly says otherwise...

Really just a false match-up using barely examined "figures".

[Borgholio]

I mean - photon torpedoes travel at warp speed? On-screen evidence clearly says otherwise...

Well they DO travel at warp speed when launched from a ship that is at warp. But they have never been seen to enter warp if fired at sublight. So a ST ship would have to use warp strafing against a Stardestroyer if they wanted the torpedoes to be at warp speed when they hit, but warp strafing has it's own set of problems that Trekkies tend to ignore.

[Captain Seafort]

But they have never been seen to enter warp if fired at sublight.

Yes, they have - the modified PT K'Ehleyr traveled in in The Emissary was launched from a Starbase and intercepted by the E-D at Warp 9, so it must have accelerated to that speed from stationary..

[Borgholio]

Yes, they have - the modified PT K'Ehleyr traveled in in The Emissary was launched from a Starbase and intercepted by the E-D at Warp 9, so it must have accelerated to that speed from stationary..

No that was a probe. According to the TM, probes DO have their own micro-warp engines so they can enter warp on their own, but torpedoes just have "sustainers" that can keep them in warp but not actually enter it on their own. But even still, we never see any probe or torpedo actually enter warp on screen.

[DarthPooky]

Star Trek, by contrast, has matter/energy conversion. The Federation is deeply integrated with almost no poverty and a large decentralized membership of worlds. The importance of matter/energy conversion cannot be overemphasized. On a war footing, the only limits to the Federation's economic capacity is energy which is in vast supply in both universes.

This guy is also under the impression that replicators just take energy and turn it into matter despite all the evidence to the contrary.

In addition, each world is at least theoretically capable of self sufficiency. Although there still appears to be strategic resources in Trek (dilithium comes to mind), these are relatively limited and the series has routinely demonstrated that they can innovate when necessary around them. The greatest advantage of the Empire is size. But the small, highly integrated and economically more advanced Federation is similar to the inequality many leading nations in Earth's history have held over their more numerous adversaries. Numbers alone cannot determine the issue.

So in other words what he calls innovation is really just technobabble I mean what an idiot. Technobabble is just star treks form of magic you may as well replace subspace and tachyons with abracadabra and hocus-pocus. That's not innovative it is a cheap lazy copout on the part of the writers.

[DarthPooky]

On this note, much is made of the lack of fighters in Trek. One simple explanation is that such craft simply cannot survive when pitted against capital ship level phasers targeted by near-AI level computer and tracking systems. Put simply, what Trek ships aim at they hit. Nearly always. Small ships simply do not challenge large ships in Trek and with good reason.

Dose he siriesly forget all the times ware trek ships have missed alla Q who anyone. ?

[Captain Seafort]

No that was a probe.

Indeed. A probe that was a modified PT. Look at it.

According to the TM, probes DO have their own micro-warp engines so they can enter warp on their own, but torpedoes just have "sustainers" that can keep them in warp but not actually enter it on their own.

The TM's irrelevant.

But even still, we never see any probe or torpedo actually enter warp on screen.

Irrelevant. We were told that K'Ehleyr was traveling from a starbase by probe because no ships were available. We were told that the E-D RV'd with said probe at warp 9. Ergo the probe achieved warp from a sub-warp platform. Due to it's nature as a modified PT (all the modifications involved gutting it so K'Ehleyr and her life support gear would fit), it's logical to assume that bog-standard PT's can do likewise.

[Borgholio]

Indeed. A probe that was a modified PT. Look at it.

All I see is an object that is similar in shape to a PT, which makes sense given how they are deployed from the same launcher. They say several times on screen that it's a probe and not a PT...so it's not a PT.

The TM's irrelevant.

No it is canon. It's where we get the figure of 1.5kg antimatter for a PT so we can calculate it's yield, among other things. Are you going to ignore that as well?

We were told that K'Ehleyr was traveling from a starbase by probe

So you admit it's a probe and not a PT. Thank you.

Ergo the probe achieved warp from a sub-warp platform.

Yes and I already said that probes are capable of doing that. I said that we never actually see probes enter warp on screen and it is quite relevant, despite what you claim. You have no way of proving that PTs can enter warp on their own because we never see it happen on screen and it is never discussed during the show. Even in this episode we never actually SEE the probe enter warp so they could have used a booster engine for all you know. So since we have no idea how probes enter warp just by watching the series, we go to the TM. The TM states they have their own micro-warp drives but it specifically says that PTs do not. That's it, end of story. It's not a PT and you can't prove they have the ability to enter warp on their own.

[DesertFly]

Star Trek, by contrast, has matter/energy conversion. The Federation is deeply integrated with almost no poverty and a large decentralized membership of worlds. The importance of matter/energy conversion cannot be overemphasized. On a war footing, the only limits to the Federation's economic capacity is energy which is in vast supply in both universes.

This guy is also under the impression that replicators just take energy and turn it into matter despite all the evidence to the contrary. :banghead:

I hate to say it, but I am currently rewatching Star Trek (I started with the original series, have watched all of TNG, and am in the middle of DS9 and Voyager), and there is no indication that I have seen that the replicators don't just turn energy into matter. If there is some evidence in some episode to the contrary I am forgetting, please let me know.

Also, I love Star Wars more, and I do think the Empire would win, even against the whole Star Trek galaxy, but mostly I believe it would be because of the greater industrial might of the Empire, the fact that it is more unified and therefore much greater in fighting population, and has a distinctive speed advantage over everyone but possibly the Borg and a few one-off races here and there.

It's been argued that the weapons and probably defensive technology of the SW galaxy is on a whole much greater than the Federation average, but Star Trek (and to a degree Star Wars) firepower is so inconsistently portrayed that arguments over what kind of damage ships would be able to give and receive seems pointless: examples could (and have in the past) be cherry-picked from either franchise.

The other factor, that I touched on briefly above, is how fragmented the Star Trek galaxy is. It's not a stretch to say that the Empire could find some willing trading partners (Ferengi, Orions) and perhaps even allies if they invaded. It wouldn't be inconceivable that the Cardassians, for example, would ally with the Empire in exchange for being set as rulers of their little corner of the galaxy.

[Lord Revan]

Don't they speak of "replicator rations" in VOY? Granted that could just mean that each crew member was allowed to use x watts per given timeframe for replicators, but I seemd to remember them speaking of those rations as they were actual physical thing and not just an portion of the ships power they could use, granted I could be wrong it's been a while since I watched Voyager (or at least the part that aired here)

[Borgholio]

I do know they spoke of recycling stuff into the replicator. Question is, are they recycling raw material or converting matter to energy and then storing the energy in a battery somewhere? Makes more sense to assume the former...

[Batman]

Star Trek, by contrast, has matter/energy conversion. The Federation is deeply integrated with almost no poverty and a large decentralized membership of worlds. The importance of matter/energy conversion cannot be overemphasized. On a war footing, the only limits to the Federation's economic capacity is energy which is in vast supply in both universes.

This guy is also under the impression that replicators just take energy and turn it into matter despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I hate to say it, but I am currently rewatching Star Trek (I started with the original series, have watched all of TNG, and am in the middle of DS9 and Voyager), and there is no indication that I have seen that the replicators don't just turn energy into matter. If there is some evidence in some episode to the contrary I am forgetting, please let me know.

There's no evidence they do turn energy to matter either. And given the fact they're almost inevitably linked to to transporter technology, which is routinely described in terms incompatible with matter-energy conversion, that seems highly unlikely.
Besides, if transporters did turn matter to energy, they'd be even more abysmally stupid than they're generally assumed to be for still bothering with Warp Cores. With a few select exceptions transporters will transport pretty much anything, so if that's mass/energy conversion, pretty much 'everything' has a higher energy density per fuel volume than hydrogen (not to mention doesn't require a highly dangerous AM component to be stored aboard ship in nontrivial quantities). e=mc^2 doesn't care if the m is rock, used kitty litter, overdue yoghurt or a pile of bodies you need to disappear real quick. 1kg of ANYTHING gets you 9E16J.
If the claim is they can create matter from energy, but not the other way round (except for the traditional ways) then a) congratulations, you just found the least efficient manufacturing method ever-I wonder what's easier to store, 1kg of raw materials or 9E16J of energy-and b) it doesn't do beans for their power generation so why would it matter?

[Lord Revan]

the fact there's dicussion of recycling suggest there's a limit to the amount of things they can pull out of the replicators over a large time period either due using too much fuel (the energy has to come from somewhere after all) or limited amount of raw material. bare in mind that to create just 1 kg of matter you need the bare minimium of about 90 Petajoules or about 9*1016joules

[Ted C]

But they have never been seen to enter warp if fired at sublight.

Yes, they have - the modified PT K'Ehleyr traveled in in The Emissary was launched from a Starbase and intercepted by the E-D at Warp 9, so it must have accelerated to that speed from stationary..

K'Ehleyr's ride as a "Class 9 probe" or some such, not a photon torpedo, even if it was similar in size and shape.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC there's 2 kinds of probes shown in TNG the big ones that the Enterprise launches and the modified torp casings (aka the Class 9 ones)

[Battlegrinder]

Ow...so many things wrong with that article. I'm wondering how little research they bothered to do on this, since even a quick google search comes up with either SW winning, or at best it being a close fight. I've yet to see any source saying that trek would stomp.


I have the horrible feeling I'm going to see this article come up quite a bit on spacebattles.

[SCRawl]

If the transporters actually created matter from energy, then latinum wouldn't be a valuable substance, since it could simply be replicated. Similarly, since there were occasions which involved travelling some distance to obtain a substance required to create something -- I can't recall the episode's name, but I think the thing to be created was a vaccine -- the concept of replicator "stocks" has to be accepted.

As to many of the other points -- we can consider those cherries to have been expertly and thoroughly picked.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

That steaming pile of horseshit has got Darkstar written all over it- it flat-out ignores the insane speed advantage that hyperdrive has over ordinary warp. To echo what's already been said, when someone offers the 'no laser fallacy' you're already rolling your eyes. And there are a crapload of examples of photon torpedoes travelling at sublight speeds, so many it's not even funny.

There seems to be some doubt about whether PTs can be fired forwards while at warp- this example proves that they can.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Irrelevant. We were told that K'Ehleyr was traveling from a starbase by probe because no ships were available. We were told that the E-D RV'd with said probe at warp 9. Ergo the probe achieved warp from a sub-warp platform. Due to it's nature as a modified PT (all the modifications involved gutting it so K'Ehleyr and her life support gear would fit), it's logical to assume that bog-standard PT's can do likewise.

No it is not. They use the casings, but most of the other components are switched out, and there are numerous classes of probes with different packages of equipment, some of which cannot enter or sustain warp travel.

The torpedo is full of as much antimatter, containment systems and fuel that they can pack in. Probes have sensor packages and in some cases warp drives.

This is not overly difficult. Your entire argument is a non sequitur.