borg qouestions

[lord Martiya]

Given the difference in explosion between the first and the second use of the photon torpedoes, my guess is that the adaptation is twofold: they adapted to the torpedoes' own shielding, and found a way to make them detonate prematurely and in a less efficient way.

That could also finally explain what the quantum torpedoes are: a photon torpedo variant with both a larger warhead and the correction of whatever the Borg were using to detonate the torpedoes in a less efficient way.

[WATCH-MAN]

It's fairly commonly accepted that the glow given off by torpedoes is a shield that is used to help it exit the shield bubble of the firing ship ...

It is? I've never heard of this "commonly accepted" theory before.

And why is the torpedo glowing all its way to its target. If it is only a shield to help the torpedo the shield bubble, it could be deactivated after leaving the shield bubble. The advantage would be that the torpedo would be more difficult to detect if it is not glowing all the time.

[Borgholio]

It is? I've never heard of this "commonly accepted" theory before.

It's really the only way to explain why a black plastic cylinder glows red and has all sorts of spiky effects on it.

And why is the torpedo glowing all its way to its target. If it is only a shield to help the torpedo the shield bubble, it could be deactivated after leaving the shield bubble. The advantage would be that the torpedo would be more difficult to detect if it is not glowing all the time.

The only reason could be if the shield helps protect against point defense fire. On the few occasions where we see unshielded missiles (NuTrek and one episode of TNG with the Barzan wormhole), the missiles are taken out quite easily by defensive phaser fire.

[WATCH-MAN]

It is? I've never heard of this "commonly accepted" theory before.

It's really the only way to explain why a black plastic cylinder glows red and has all sorts of spiky effects on it.

A shield may be a reasonable explanation for the glowing. But not the fact that a torpedo has a shield but that this shields purpose is to enable the torpedo to exit the shield bubble was what you refered to as commonly accepted. And my question was, if this is really commonly accepted. (I do not doubt that your theory may make sense - as other theories. I want to know from where you are taking the conviction that your theory is "commonly accepted").

[Borgholio]

For the life of me I can't find the relevant discussion about it here. So I'll settle for a direct link to canon:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo

Photon torpedoes were definitely weapons with physical missile casings by the time of the 1982 feature film Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Furthermore, the special effect of a torpedo launched with a warhead and one launched as a coffin was completely different in the film. The first on-screen connection between photon torpedoes and antimatter came in 1989, in the second season episode "Samaritan Snare" of Star Trek: The Next Generation and it was not established until 1991, in the fourth season episode "Half a Life", that photon torpedoes had in fact deflector shields of their own.

[Batman]

Memory Alpha is canon since when? There's no actual quote saying that photorps have deflectors in that article.

[Borgholio]

Memory Alpha is canon since when? There's no actual quote saying that photorps have deflectors in that article.

TNG Episode, "Half a Life"

Script Excerpt:

LAFORGE: Torpedoes now entering the stellar core.
TIMICIN: Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal.
LAFORGE: Ignition sequence, six seconds

Video clip:

http://www.cbs.com/shows/star_trek_the_ ... lf-a-life/

Fast Forward to 12:15.

[Batman]

'The video you have requested is not available for your geographic region'
Also, weren't those torpedoes modified in some way?

[Borgholio]

Yes they modified the guidance systems, but they didn't mention any other changes.

[WATCH-MAN]

As it seems, I failed to make my intention clear.

I do not doubt, that torpedoes have shields.

I put into question if these shields are the cause for the glowing. Ships have shields too and are not glowing.

I put into question that the purpose of these shields is to enable torpedoes to leave the shield bubble.

• • In Star Trek Generations we see a Bird of Prey firing torpedoes on the Enterprise with the exact modulation of the shields of the Enterprise.
    
    They are able to pass the shields - but we cann see a reaction on the shields of the Enterprise the moment the torpedoes penetrates the shield (time 1:30).
    
    Such a reaction of the shields is never seen when a ship fires a torrpedo and this torpedo is leaving the shield bubble of the ship.

And I put into question that it is "commonly accepted" that the glow given off by torpedoes is a shield that is used to help it exit the shield bubble of the firing ship

• • There is a novel (Dark Victory by William Shatner) in which it is explained that a hole is opened in the shield for a fired torpedo. In this novel, Kirk used this hole to steer a shuttle into a shield bubble of a ship and capture it. The novel itself may not be canon. But it puts into question your "commonly accepted" assertion.

[Borgholio]

I put into question if these shields are the cause for the glowing. Ships have shields too and are not glowing.

Fair enough. What do you propose to be the mechanism behind the glow, then?

Ships have shields too and are not glowing.

That is a good point. Perhaps they use different mechanisms? We already know they have different kinds of shields (Hull-hugging, bubble, forcefields, etc...).

They are able to pass the shields - but we cann see a reaction on the shields of the Enterprise the moment the torpedoes penetrates the shield (time 1:30).

Such a reaction of the shields is never seen when a ship fires a torrpedo and this torpedo is leaving the shield bubble of the ship.

Fast-forward to 3:05 and you will see the disruptor bolts doing the same thing. Thus, you cannot argue that a shield reaction is unique to torpedoes, since it happens with ANY incoming fire. So clearly, there must be a difference in the way the shield technology itself handles incoming vs outgoing fire regardless of if the incoming fire has shields or not.

There is a novel (Dark Victory by William Shatner) in which it is explained that a hole is opened in the shield for a fired torpedo.

That would make sense actually. Unfortunately since it's not canon, we cannot use it for this discussion.

But it puts into question your "commonly accepted" assertion.

Since as I stated before, I can't find the discussion thread where this was agreed upon, I will concede this point. I would still like you to suggest an alternative mechanism for the glow then, if you believe it is not the shield.

[WATCH-MAN]

I put into question if these shields are the cause for the glowing. Ships have shields too and are not glowing.

Fair enough. What do you propose to be the mechanism behind the glow, then?

I propose no mechanism.

It could be the shields.

It could be any other thing.

These torpedoes are called photon torpedoes. They have a matter-anti-matter warhead. But we do not know how these war-heads are working. It could be that it is more than a "simple" anihilation reaction. Otherweise there wouldn't be much difference between the different version of torpedoes (photonic torpdo - photon torpedo - quantum torpedo). Maybe the by the anihilation released energy is only used to create another kind of reaction? Maybe a totally unknown reaction (sub-space-energy, hyper-space-energy, zero-point-energy, vacuum energy) is cause for the emitted light (photons). It's only a speculation. Nothing more.

They are able to pass the shields - but we cann see a reaction on the shields of the Enterprise the moment the torpedoes penetrates the shield (time 1:30).

Such a reaction of the shields is never seen when a ship fires a torrpedo and this torpedo is leaving the shield bubble of the ship.

Fast-forward to 3:05 and you will see the disruptor bolts doing the same thing. Thus, you cannot argue that a shield reaction is unique to torpedoes, since it happens with ANY incoming fire.

I have not argued that a shield reaction is unique to torpedoes

So clearly, there must be a difference in the way the shield technology itself handles incoming vs outgoing fire regardless of if the incoming fire has shields or not.

Exactly. But the question still is, if outgoing fire has to have a modulations adapted to the shields modulation to be able to leave the shield bubble or if this isn't necessary because there are other ways to allow outgoing fire (e.g. holes).

[Borgholio]

I have not argued that a shield reaction is unique to torpedoes

Unless I misunderstood you, the argument was that if torpedoes make the shields flare when they pass through one way and not the other, that it must mean modulating the shields of the torpedo are not meant to help them pass through shields, since otherwise the shields would flare both ways. My counter-argument was that since ALL incoming fire makes the shields flare and NONE of the outgoing weapons do the same, then a shield effect can not be reliably used to determine if a torpedo's shields are intended to help them pass through the bubble or not.

Exactly. But the question still is, if outgoing fire has to have a modulations adapted to the shields modulation to be able to leave the shield bubble or if this isn't necessary because there are other ways to allow outgoing fire (e.g. holes).

You have actually stumbled on one of the plotholes of that firefight. The Bird of Prey's shields would have had to be at the same frequency to allow THEIR weapons through...so why did the Enterprise's return phaser fire not go clean through?

But regardless, the only canon-ish source I can recall where they specifically say that weapon frequency must be matched to the shield frequency is in the DS9 Technical Manual where it states that the phaser beam would reflect back at the firing ship if the frequencies were not matched.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If weapon frequency had to be matched to shield frequency then all those fights with the Borg where they remodulate their phasers every shot or so would mean they also kept changing their shields. And yet as far as I can recall, adjusting shield modulation was mentioned only once when in combat against the Borg, in the background chatter overheard in First Contact.

[Borgholio]

Yeah so from what we actually see on screen, it makes more sense that shields allow weapons fire out without matching frequencies but not in. Which contradicts the TM, but oh well.

[Batman]

Never read the DS9 TM but as the TNG TM was occasionally incompatible with itself (leave alone the aired material) I wouldn't lose much sleep over that.

[Captain Seafort]

Never read the DS9 TM but as the TNG TM was occasionally incompatible with itself (leave alone the aired material) I wouldn't lose much sleep over that.

Such as three different figures for PT yield with a range of about six orders of magnitude.

[Batman]

1.05 GW main phasers vs 4.5E7 MJ power cells on Type II's. I rest my case.

[Captain Seafort]

1.05 GW main phasers vs 4.5E7 MJ power cells on Type II's. I rest my case.

Technically that could just be evidence that it's got a typical Hollywood magazine capacity.

[Batman]

There's Hollywood magazine capacity and there's a pistol having enough juice to power one of the ship's main guns, for 12 hours of continuous fire.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It's pretty obvious the Oberth class is worse than useless in a firefight, in ST 3 the Grissom was destroyed in one shot by a single BoP- never mind a fucking Borg Cube You'd need to find a way to conceal one from the Borg sensors long enough to get within detonation range if you were going to use one like a bomb. It wasn't until the ship was already disabled that Worf gave the order to ram the cube with the Defiant but forgetting about the warhead. From Memory Alpha:

The notched forward hull containing the vessel's navigational deflector and main sensors was a detachable single-use last-resort missile. This missile was equipped with a small impulse engine and a magazine with six torpedo warheads. These torpedo warheads were part of the ship's auto-destruct system and under more normal circumstances could be fired from the forward launcher. Any torpedo warheads left in the magazine would become the missile's warhead upon the missile's separation from the rest of the ship. If no torpedo warheads remained, then the missile would have to rely on kinetic energy alone. The ship would be unable to travel at high warp speeds without the missile since the latter contained the ship's navigational deflector.

Given how close to the cube the ship was, it would have been the ideal time to deploy it. Clearly Worf thought today was a good day to die

You have actually stumbled on one of the plotholes of that firefight. The Bird of Prey's shields would have had to be at the same frequency to allow THEIR weapons through...so why did the Enterprise's return phaser fire not go clean through?

Something that I've been asking for years, the only explanation I've heard that makes any sense is that the BOP's shields switched freqs between shots. Thus, they would have matched during firing but not when between shots.

Let's not forget how shockingly poor the Klingon's gunnery was- 2 out of every 3 shots missed completely on a target that was hardly moving.

A couple of other things- 2 seconds of vulernability? The travel time from launch to impact was far longer than that, and the ship was cloaked, for fucks sake. Dodging out of the torpedo's path should have been child's play (it's not like their engines were disabled along with their shields); and since when does one torpedo constitute a spread? Even the tightest of groupings would have produced more than one glow.

Had they fired an actual spread set to proximity detonation and moving at normal photorp speeds it would have made more sense; not only would the Klingons have had less time to react but they wouldn't have been able to escape fast enough. And firing from the forward launcher would have looked far cooler than trying to run away

[Ted C]

And why is the torpedo glowing all its way to its target. If it is only a shield to help the torpedo the shield bubble, it could be deactivated after leaving the shield bubble. The advantage would be that the torpedo would be more difficult to detect if it is not glowing all the time.

Potentially for the same reason it was glowing on the way out. Once it leaves the firing ship's shield bubble, it can theoretically change the frequency of the shield to try to match and bypass the target's shield.

Of course, it's rare to know the frequency of the target's shield, so it's rarely useful.

[Elheru Aran]

And why is the torpedo glowing all its way to its target. If it is only a shield to help the torpedo the shield bubble, it could be deactivated after leaving the shield bubble. The advantage would be that the torpedo would be more difficult to detect if it is not glowing all the time.

Potentially for the same reason it was glowing on the way out. Once it leaves the firing ship's shield bubble, it can theoretically change the frequency of the shield to try to match and bypass the target's shield.

Of course, it's rare to know the frequency of the target's shield, so it's rarely useful.

You could surmise that this is what Lursa and B'etor did in ST:Generations once they had the frequency of the Enterprise's shield. In fact, that is pretty much what they did, I think...

[Ted C]

You could surmise that this is what Lursa and B'etor did in ST:Generations once they had the frequency of the Enterprise's shield. In fact, that is pretty much what they did, I think...

Presumably that's exactly what happened in this shot.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1290.jpg

The shield can also do some other things, like allow the torpedo to tunnel into a planet's crust or survive diving into a sun (for a while).