Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

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biostem
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by biostem »

FaxModem1 wrote:It was really just the Federation finding some sort of use for a bunch of obsolete technology as the Mark I EMH was considered outdated and unpleasant to deal with by anyone who ever turned it on. So they decided to have the things mining for dilithium on some asteroid.

I don't think it's how the Federation normally mines for dilithium.
This is one of those headscratchers for me - you have holographic people *not optimized* for mining, and with a history of being kinda bitchy - why even activate them to do a job which they'll likely be very non-productive at?

If you ask me, some sadistic Starfleet higher-up was just trying to torture the poor guys.

My point was to specially design an engineering EMH for the purpose of studying and reverse-engineering the Executor...
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Stark »

FaxModem1 wrote:It was really just the Federation finding some sort of use for a bunch of obsolete technology as the Mark I EMH was considered outdated and unpleasant to deal with by anyone who ever turned it on. So they decided to have the things mining for dilithium on some asteroid.

I don't think it's how the Federation normally mines for dilithium.
Do you honestly thinks this makes even a tiny bit of sense?

'Hologram is rude so we rigged a big cave for them to mine HAHAHAAH that'll teach those rude holograms! No we can't flash the firmware or disassemble the components to make anything useful - this Torture Asteroid is better'.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Batman »

I never thought I'd say this but thank you, Stark.
The EMH is a computer program. You want to got rid of him because of his terrible bedside manner, how about you, I don't know, delete him?
And while holoengineers aren't going to be any better at figuring out imperial technology than the people who programmed them are at least nobody'll die when they fuck up and things go kablooey so I see some merit in the idiea.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by FaxModem1 »

Think of this from a government budget standpoint. You got dozens if not hundreds of these Mark I EMHs you put resources and years of research and development into, and they've already been replaced by a better and newer model. Are you saying we should just delete all that work? No, we have to recoup our losses somehow. After all, they're just holograms, no one will mind them collecting dilithium with pickaxes.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Apparently, Zimmerman himself was so ashamed of the MK1's being reassigned that he wanted them decommissioned instead. Seems Starfleet didn't do a thorough enough job reconfiguring them as they retained some sentience. What they should have done is erase their memories, so that from their perspective, mining was what they were designed to do. The use of holographic tools and machines would be a bonus too, as they could be instantly reconfigured whenever new methods arise.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Stark »

FaxModem1 wrote:Think of this from a government budget standpoint. You got dozens if not hundreds of these Mark I EMHs you put resources and years of research and development into, and they've already been replaced by a better and newer model. Are you saying we should just delete all that work? No, we have to recoup our losses somehow. After all, they're just holograms, no one will mind them collecting dilithium with pickaxes.
You honestly can't see anything wrong with this, can you?

'Recoup our losses by using a configurable piece of software and multi-role hardware to do something useless'.

The idea that the hologram mining we see is 'a bonus' compared to actual mining technology used now is terrifying.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by FaxModem1 »

Considering that the Klingons mine dilithium with convicts, it's not unprecedented.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Batman »

FaxModem1 wrote:Think of this from a government budget standpoint. You got dozens if not hundreds of these Mark I EMHs you put resources and years of research and development into, and they've already been replaced by a better and newer model. Are you saying we should just delete all that work? No, we have to recoup our losses somehow. After all, they're just holograms, no one will mind them collecting dilithium with pickaxes.
Without the associated hardware the EMH is nothing but a lot of computer code, which costs nothing to duplicate, so wether or not there was one or 14,000 or twelve million of him is irrelevant. Do you know where that associated hardware is? Medical facilities. To enable the Mk1 to work in mines, far from recouping losses you throw even more resources at the project by installing holoemitters at the mining sites. The VOY Holodocs ability to function outside sickbay wasn't an inherent part of the setup, it was a one-off modification made possible by 29th century technology.

Yes, it would have been far more sensible to simply delete the Mk1s.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by biostem »

Plus you would think that a holo-miner would be orders of magnitude simpler to program than an EMH. Not only that, but since they could take whatever form you desired, why not make them some sort of multi-armed creature w/ integrated mining equipment.

The only excuse I can think of is that someone knew about their sentience and thought it would be "more humane" to keep them online, even if it was only as miners...
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Batman »

Holomoriarty, who was a supervillain even before Geordi accidentally made him fully sentient and threatened to destroy the Big E and everyone on it got his own virtual pocket universe to live in happily ever after, but the best they could do for the EMH Mk1 was slave labour? :D
So much for the high ethical standards of the Federation.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Stark »

FaxModem1 wrote:Considering that the Klingons mine dilithium with convicts, it's not unprecedented.
Are you aware they use convicts to do unproductive work as a punishment y/n?
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by FaxModem1 »

Stark wrote:Are you aware they use convicts to do unproductive work as a punishment y/n?
Yes, I would just think it's analogous to having them remake a road, picking up garbage, or printing license plates. A service that's needed, only they're finding a use for a bunch of things they already have.

With the EMHs, while they aren't incarcerated, they aren't people by Federation standards. To them, it's just a tool to use since they've bought it. The biggest problem is the holo-emitters, which I now concede would have been a burden to install.
Batman wrote: Without the associated hardware the EMH is nothing but a lot of computer code, which costs nothing to duplicate, so wether or not there was one or 14,000 or twelve million of him is irrelevant. Do you know where that associated hardware is? Medical facilities. To enable the Mk1 to work in mines, far from recouping losses you throw even more resources at the project by installing holoemitters at the mining sites. The VOY Holodocs ability to function outside sickbay wasn't an inherent part of the setup, it was a one-off modification made possible by 29th century technology.

Yes, it would have been far more sensible to simply delete the Mk1s.
Yeah, that would be a logistics problem. That makes sense. So either some bureaucrat didn't realize that it would cost more, and put this plan in place, thinking like I did that it would be a prudent measure. Or they already had the holographic emitters in place in the dilithium mines for some reason, and just added the EMHs, and decided this would be a good way to solve the outdated programs. Or thirdly, someone in Starfleet had a REALLY bad experience with a Mark I EMH and as soon as they were replaced, used his pull to imprison them in an asteroid, and cackled with glee at his revenge.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by the atom »

Boeing 757 wrote:
the atom wrote:
Boeing 757 wrote:Even if they did happen to assimilate the technical knowhow of how hypermatter works, it may take them a very long time until they could duplicate a working hypermatter-powered ship, or even make it fully compatible with their current technology. If the Empire stands as high above them as I reckon that they do, they may encounter strict limits to how well they could carry out such a goal. Imagine for example if ninteenth-century Britain had found a deserted U.S. space shuttle lying in an open field somewhere, and were then tasked with building a working model from scratch. Not easy at all.
So? It's not as if anybody is going to go traipsing off into the depth of the Delta Quadrant to smash up the Borg and get the ship back even if they wanted to. Standard cubes can already pretty much solo whole alpha quadrant fleets by themselves, so it's not like they don't have a literally unlimited timeframe to take the Executor apart to look at it's fiddly bits and figure out how it all works. It might take decades, but who cares? Not the Borg that's for sure.
The Alpha Quadrant powers can't even reach Borg territory, for starters, so they're a non-factor. The Voth and S8472 however, are a much graver threat and seem to be superior to the Borg in many ways, enough so that at least the latter can penetrate Borg space whenever it wishes. And who knows, the Borg likely have many more enemies whom we've never seen before off screen that are technologically on par to them. Once they all learn that the Borg have seized a super-powerful ship that could tip the scale of power decisively in their favor, do you really think that they would just sit there idly for decades or centuries, and let it happen? Highly unlikely IMHO.
Assuming they know about it of course. 8472 has pretty much buggered off, and I find it unlikely the Voth have spies embedded in the collective. So if they decide to park it somewhere on the other side of the Delta Quadrant (or wherever. They could chop it up on the spot while they assimilate the rest of the AQ if they wanted because they're the fucking Borg), there's not a very big chance the Voth will even be aware of its existence. Not until they start trying to find out why the Borg can now effortlessly explode their ships that is.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by NeoGoomba »

Wouldn't the metallurgy of the Executor and some of it's durable children be a huge prize on its own? If they could learn how to fabricate whatever armor plating the Empire uses, they would have a tremendous defensive advantage over other AQ powers, and it would (conceivably) be an easier advantage to achieve than finding a fuel source for the Imperial tech.

That said, I'm having a hard time thinking of ways Starfleet engineers could manipulate the armor, considering it is strong enough to withstand weaponry an order of magnitude (or more) above what they are used to seeing.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

It really depends on how well their sensors can determine the composition and makeup of the armour, and more critically, whether the material can be replicated or not. One thing that I'm wondering is, would the ship be carrying a supply of spare armour plates for repairs? Conceivably those would be far easier to handle than sections of the hull.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

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Given the Executor carries a plethora of small craft and ground vehicles getting a sample of the armour material to a facility with more capable sensors shouldn't be all that much of a problem. Unless Wars capital ships carry vastly different armour than their smaller ships instead of just a lot more of it?
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Skywalker_T-65 »

For both the X-Wing and the TIE-fighter (since their the only ones I've found so far that mentions the hull/armor) it says 'Titanium Alloy'. Granted, this could be from old WEG things before Durasteel was named (I think, correct me if I'm wrong), since it seems highly odd that they would build Starfighters out of a material (that while strong for Earth) would seem weak compared to what we know of ship armor.

Of course, the 'alloy' part could be their way of saying 'its titanium...but BETTER!!!11!!'. That's all I can get out of Wookieepedia right now, though I'm looking at the shuttles when I get the chance.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by biostem »

Batman wrote:Given the Executor carries a plethora of small craft and ground vehicles getting a sample of the armour material to a facility with more capable sensors shouldn't be all that much of a problem. Unless Wars capital ships carry vastly different armour than their smaller ships instead of just a lot more of it?
At the very least, you'd think that there'd be equipment in the Executor to patch up possible external breaches - that would necessitate some means of cutting the armor to fit in a patch, (or otherwise melt/weld patch material to fill in a gap).

I'd also assume that if Starfleet personnel can get the sensors working, that there'd be some system to monitor and report on hull integrity, (and possibly provide a detailed analysis of its composition).
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Batman »

Why would they need to a)cut armour and b) fit in a patch? Just glue it on over the breach.
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by fordlltwm »

I was about to say if they pull in for repairs / R&R / restocking at least semi regularly they could get any patched plates swapped out for new ones and send the repaired ones for recycling, but since the executor class apparently carries 6 years of provisions I'm guessing it doesn't swing by anywhere that often. In that case it's possible they do cut the repairs to fit the holes / adjust the holes to suit as well.

I'm assuming they'd change any damaged panels simply because having your flagship with battle scars on kinda undermines the whole 19km of awesomeness they're supposed to represent.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by the atom »

Where exactly is the the idea that their armour is 'teh shit' coming from? We've seen in the beginning of ROTS that it doesn't really take uber firepower to punch through that armour, and in ROTJ a single shot from a heavy turbolaser made a relatively pristine looking Star Destroyer go up like Chinese New Year.

Other then their amazingly superior power generation and handling capabilities I'm not sure if there's much else in the way of obviously revolutionary technology.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by PREDATOR490 »

You really need to know when exactly the E-D finds this super-ship, right now it could be anywhere from a day after Encounter at Farpoint to a week before Generations.
Regardless, the local powers will be going apeshit and Starfleet is hardly in a position to repel them all and it gets worse the closer you get to the Dominion War. Changling infiltrators, Romulans and every other intelligence agency will be drawn like flies to shit.
It is entirely likely the Q will not be pleased with the Federation gaining access to such a game changing ship and remove it.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

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PREDATOR490 wrote:It is entirely likely the Q will not be pleased with the Federation gaining access to such a game changing ship and remove it.
I wouldn't be suprised if Q was the one that put it there. :P
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Skywalker_T-65 »

^ That :P

And the idea that the armor is 'DA AWESOMESSS!!!' comes from the fact that it supposedly can take at least a couple hits from multi-gigaton weapons. At least, that's what I have heard. Obviously we see nothing like that firepower hitting a ship and wrecking it on screen (ROTS does come to mind, what with the broadside between that Venator and the Invisible Hand).

That being said, it is still generally accepted that Wars weapons are far superior to ST weapons (even without invoking the ICS), so it would make at least some sense for the armor to be better to a certain extent too.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation: The Executor

Post by Boeing 757 »

Skywalker_T-65 wrote:^ That :P

And the idea that the armor is 'DA AWESOMESSS!!!' comes from the fact that it supposedly can take at least a couple hits from multi-gigaton weapons. At least, that's what I have heard. Obviously we see nothing like that firepower hitting a ship and wrecking it on screen (ROTS does come to mind, what with the broadside between that Venator and the Invisible Hand).

That being said, it is still generally accepted that Wars weapons are far superior to ST weapons (even without invoking the ICS), so it would make at least some sense for the armor to be better to a certain extent too.
At least the AOTC:ICS supports this.... "Fusion rockets barely scrape the dense neutronium armor"...or something similar along that line. The hull armor may be able to withstand warheads with gigaton-yields, taking into account that starfighters can harm capital ships even with their shields up--but just barely.
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