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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

Why does the SW vs ST debate still exist?

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KAN reborn
PostPosted: 2012-01-14 03:14pm 

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Like I said, your points just don't sit right with me.

Destructionator XIII wrote:
CrateriaA wrote:
1. A simple tractor beam totally messes up the targeting of the ED. Pathetic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q6jZC1sn1A

5:35

holy christ that episode is the best hour of television EVER MADE


They didn't even miss here. That was direct hit after direct hit after direct hit right on the same pinpoint location.

BTW hull rupture in main engineering but the ship is still fighting.

And BTW #2, Picard's "warp 9" there is my favorite thing I have ever seen. I'd rather watch that on repeat for 30 seconds than have sex.




I definitely remember the big misses though breaking a tractor beam. Must be from Q Who?

Yes... here we go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yAlUTxk ... re=related

They did hit it, and shots #1 and #2 were in pretty much the same location. Perhaps Worf thought the beam was coming from somewhere else; perhaps the computer miscalculated due to the alien construction of the Borg cube (it might have been going for the generator rather than the emitter), or maybe it's just not as obvious in universe as it appears to be to us the viewer.

Regardless, they did indeed take it down in four shots, and once Picard gave the order to go nuts, it was a matter of seconds.

Yes, yes, the links your put have shown that Trek beam weapons can accurately hit stationary targets, from stationary position. CMIIW, but the point is whether Trek beam weapons can target SW fighters or not. And here we have evidence that Trek beam weapons have missed targets much bigger and slower than SW fighters.



Destructionator XIII wrote:
A Star Trek nebula, that is. Star Wars has their communications broken up by simple rocks floating around.

A "Star Trek nebula" is still made up of gas, asteroids are solid objects. And the Star Destoyers in TESB were still able to communicate with each other in the asteroid field. Vader ordered to move out off the asteroid field because he wanted clear transmission, not because the ships were unable to communicate.
TESB script wrote:
the admiral is scared, his face white as a sheet.

PIETT: The Emperor commands you make contact with him.

VADER: Move the ship out of the asteroid field so that we can send a clear transmission.




Destructionator XIII wrote:
Not true. The seismic charge in Attack of the Clones was witnessed to have kiloton effects at best. It didn't even vaporize anything!

It doesn't matter whether the seismic charge vaporized the asteroids or merely destroyed them. In "Pegasus", Riker said it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid.



Destructionator XIII wrote:
Not true. The turbolasers witnessed in The Empire Strikes Back were witnessed to have kiloton or maybe megaton effects, at best; on par with a single Federation weapon, not the full payload.

You do realize that the turbolasers witnessed in TESB are light turbolasers, don't you?



Destructionator XIII wrote:
The port was two meters wide (and considered impossible to hit by Star Wars targetting computers).

A photon torpedo is less than one meter wide.

Gimme a break, this is getting ridiculous. An airbus is smaller than an airbus' hangar, but show me the last time an airbus made a high-g, 90 degree turn to enter the hangar. Likewise, show me the last time a Trek torpedo accomplished such feat.



Destructionator XIII wrote:
The shields went down immediately after the fighters destroyed the globe thing.

Then a fighter took out the bridge, which led directly to the ship speeding out of control. That's a kill.

No, the Executor bridge crew noticed the bridge shields were down immediately after the fighters destroyed the globe thing.



Destructionator XIII wrote:
omg watch The Phantom Menace, it's an awesome movie with a flawlessly constructed plot and brilliant action scenes.

One of those action scenes is a little kid flying a fighter into a battleship (when he said the podracing line), virtually unopposed, and firing ~megajoule weapons at something right off the hanger bay.

The whole ship then went up in a series of explosions, destroying itself completely and shutting down their entire army.

Because Anakin firing megajoule weapons inside the hangar, which is unshielded. Try again.



Destructionator XIII wrote:
Half of the big bad ships seen in the Star Wars movies, at least, are destroyed by little fighters scoring just a couple small hits.

Exaggeration to the point of bullshit. Show me the evidence where those "couple of small hits" had ever overwhelmed SW capship's hull, let alone its shield. And no, computer games don't count.



Destructionator XIII wrote:
Saxton is an idiot Warsie who has a... shall we say, unique, interpretration of clear on screen evidence. Nevertheless, his numbers tend to be high, so they are useful for these things since if we are generous with his assumptions and conservative with ours, and still win, it's pretty clearly not a curbstomp.

http://theforce.net/swtc/isd.html#shields

He pegged the shields have had failed from a 1/10 megaton asteroid impact. Mike Wong, who has a... shall we say... unique interpretation of clear on screen events in Star Trek, estimates photon torpedoes to be 1/10 megaton weapons here: http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Databas ... mit=Submit


The energy can do the damage.


Now, Saxton wasn't happy with his own conclusion, so he tried to cover it up by saying the shields were battered all day, but that doesn't make much sense and isn't even confirmed that they were. Do SW shields never regenerate? Do we know SW shields actually fail progressively? Why would a shield fail progressively anyway?

Black and white fallacy. You are completely ignoring the possibility that the rate of asteroid impact is higher than the rate of SW shield's regeneration --which makes sense, considering how dense and violent TESB asteroid field was.



Destructionator XIII wrote:
But, the fact is a physical impact with the same energy as a low end estimate for ST weapons took that star destroyer out.

Even if the damage wasn't caused by energy, but some other property (wait is a megaton a megaton a megaton????????), what matters is it happened. Worst case scenario? Toss rocks at the Imperial ships. They have a proven track record.


Now, on power, the E2ICS, AKA the Holy Bible to Warsies, puts a Republic ship's "peak shielding" at 1e23 W. That sounds like a massively big number.

But, real life nukes have done that. The first hydrogen bomb test America did, Ivy Mike, put out about a ten megatons of energy (~1e16 J)... but the nuclear reaction happened in a fraction of a second, thereabouts ten nanonseconds.

Power is energy / time. 1e16 J / 10 ns = 1e24 W.

Did you intentionally, conveniently ignored the asteroid that exploded harmlessly against the Avenger's hangar bay?



Destructionator XIII wrote:
It's probable that photon torpedoes have similar power outputs. Just like with a nuclear bomb, if the reaction isn't incredibly fast, it won't work very well.


So, the photon torpedo can overwhelm Saxton's numbers on both energy and power. Even if one isn't enough - if we go with Mike Wong's energy estimate, and/or if newer ships are vastly superior to Republic ships (though it was a new ship that died in ESB..), we're in the right ballpark here. Numerical superiority and/or torpedo spreads ought to be able to put it over the top.

And yet, TNG Episode "Pegasus" had shown what the E-D photon torps payload are incapable of --destroying hollow asteroid, that is.


Destructionator XIII wrote:
The Empire's advantages are best stated from the strategic angle - speed, production, numbers - not the tactical one.

Concession duly noted, and accepted.


Destructionator XIII wrote:
Though they have a big problem there too.... if they are invading, how will they keep their fuel lines going?
[/quote]
:roll: Logistics are the most ubiquitous military problem since Hannibal era, what makes you think the Empire cannot handle it?
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KAN reborn
PostPosted: 2012-01-14 03:21pm 

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Destructionator XIII wrote:
Boeing 757 wrote:
Overruled directly by AOTC. Remember this? "If it is not in our records, then it does not exist!" I suppose that Jocastu (sp?) could have said mainly out of arrogance, but if not why would she make such a statement if they hadn't already mapped every thing?


I'm almost certain I've seen a Star Wars thing called the unknown regions before....

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy

This says an RPG is set in a portion of the galaxy that's unexplored. That page also says there's a lot of things that make hyperspace travel hard - random masses, anamolies, etc. There's plenty of them in the Star Trek galaxy!

Please. The Unknown Region has the tangle - a web of hyperspace anomalies. Kindly prove there is plenty of such specific anomalies in ST galaxy.
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darth_timon
PostPosted: 2012-02-09 07:14pm 

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Joined: 2007-05-18 04:00pm
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The debate is moot- even if by some absurd circumstance it was proven that Federation ships had ten times the firepower of their Imperial equivalents, the Empire would still steamroll the Federation due to its huge advantages in fleet size, industry and FTL. An advantage in firepower is simply icing on a very big cake.
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fartsareforever
PostPosted: 2012-02-22 04:24pm 

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I think its funny how much the movies dont go with the expanded universe... star wars technology doesn't go together either.

faster than light travel? but they harvest water? lol
jubba the hutt owns an important trade route? but lives in the middle of know-where with not that many people to protect him...

storm troopers kill any jedi at all...
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darth_timon
PostPosted: 2012-02-23 03:10am 

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fartsareforever wrote:
I think its funny how much the movies dont go with the expanded universe... star wars technology doesn't go together either.

faster than light travel? but they harvest water? lol
jubba the hutt owns an important trade route? but lives in the middle of know-where with not that many people to protect him...

storm troopers kill any jedi at all...


There's also a lot that goes together. However, whether or not the EU fits with the films isn't important. The films by themselves prove the superiority of the Empire. The Death Star is proof by itself
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fordlltwm
PostPosted: 2012-02-23 04:26pm 

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fartsareforever wrote:
I think its funny how much the movies dont go with the expanded universe... star wars technology doesn't go together either.

faster than light travel? but they harvest water? lol
jubba the hutt owns an important trade route? but lives in the middle of know-where with not that many people to protect him...

storm troopers kill any jedi at all...


They harvest water because when you live on a dusty sand ball it becomes a valuable commodity, and it would make even less sense to import water from somewhere else when you have the technology to harvest it at home.

Jabba the Hutt chooses to live in the middle of nowhere in my opinion to avoid being constantly targetted / drawn into Hutt politics. He has a fairly impressive array of guards that would (and have been) be effective against normal mercs / hired killers. It's only when you get Jedi with character shields that having a untrained motley crew of drunks bites you in arse.
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fartsareforever
PostPosted: 2012-03-01 07:14pm 

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so with faster than light travel you think harvesting moisture is logical? well I would just send a couple ships to some comets.
you can also make water.

50 people never guard the head of state. I have a hard time believing his people live long at all.

and how did the storm troopers kill any jedi at all? surprise? surprise a jedi?
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Batman
PostPosted: 2012-03-01 08:12pm 

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fartsareforever wrote:
so with faster than light travel you think harvesting moisture is logical? well I would just send a couple ships to some comets.

Which will naturally be cheaper. Oh wait. You have merely blithely assumed so.
Quote:

you can also make water.

Which naturally is also going to be cheaper-because you say so.
Quote:
50 people never guard the head of state. I have a hard time believing his people live long at all.

Yeah. Which is why heads of state die like flies in the real world unless they're surrounded by a battalion of bodyguards. You do remember that for the prequel era, the general public considered Palpatine one of the good guys, right? Besides, one thermal detonator or proton torpedo-oops. What difference did those bodyguards make, exactly?
Quote:

and how did the storm troopers kill any jedi at all? surprise? surprise a jedi?

Not a single Jedi was killed by stormtroopers throughout the entire movie run. If you're talking about the clonetroopers yeah, it's not like they had overwhelming numbers or anything. Nevermind that Jedi precog is a bit on the unreliable side, even a Jedi can only have his lightsabre in one place at once.
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avatarxprime
PostPosted: 2012-03-11 01:05am 

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Joined: 2003-04-01 02:47am
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Batman wrote:
fartsareforever wrote:
so with faster than light travel you think harvesting moisture is logical? well I would just send a couple ships to some comets.

Which will naturally be cheaper. Oh wait. You have merely blithely assumed so.
Quote:

you can also make water.

Which naturally is also going to be cheaper-because you say so.

Not to mention Tatoonie has a population under half a million (200,000 according to Wookieepedia) so even though they have the tech, it might just not be worth it on the small scale they would need to run such a mining operation. There is also the fact that other than Jabba, all of Tatooine seems to be dirt poor, who exactly is going to fund this comet mining operation? Jabba has no issues getting whatever he wants brought to him, the rest of the people just make due with what they have.

Batman wrote:
fartsareforever wrote:
and how did the storm troopers kill any jedi at all? surprise? surprise a jedi?

Not a single Jedi was killed by stormtroopers throughout the entire movie run. If you're talking about the clonetroopers yeah, it's not like they had overwhelming numbers or anything. Nevermind that Jedi precog is a bit on the unreliable side, even a Jedi can only have his lightsabre in one place at once.

I would point out that Droids were capable of killing Jedi in AOTC just fine through superior numbers, high rates of fire, and the fact that they don't instantly die to a redirected blaster bolt as another example in support of just sheer numbers wearing down a Jedi. However, if FAF wants to talk about surprise then fine, the Jedi long-term pre-cog was already not at its best (and as mentioned it's not that reliable even when it is) and their short-term pre-cog/danger sense was thwarted since the clones never had thoughts of killing the Jedi until they were literally pulling the trigger. It's like the sniper that tried to kill Spider-Man by being asleep until it was time to take the shot. There was no danger from a sleeping man for the Spider-sense to pick up on, similarly there was no killer intent from the clones to pick up on until it was too late.
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Luke Skywalker
PostPosted: 2012-03-19 05:15pm 

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Quote:
and how did the storm troopers kill any jedi at all? surprise? surprise a jedi?


...there are a total of three Jedi in the entire Original Trilogy, and only one ever fights scout troopers briefly in RotJ; Luke.

Quote:
I think its funny how much the movies dont go with the expanded universe... star wars technology doesn't go together either.

faster than light travel? but they harvest water? lol


We have cars and planes, yet tribes in Africa still ride camels? lol. After, we just know that moisture farmers on Tatooine have access to all of the galaxy's latest technology.

Quote:
jubba the hutt owns an important trade route? but lives in the middle of know-where with not that many people to protect him...


How does one's physical location have anything to do with what one owns?





Destructionator XIII wrote:

I'm almost certain I've seen a Star Wars thing called the unknown regions before....

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy

This says an RPG is set in a portion of the galaxy that's unexplored. That page also says there's a lot of things that make hyperspace travel hard - random masses, anamolies, etc. There's plenty of them in the Star Trek galaxy!

The pictures there include the time of exploration. The pictures make the galaxy look maybe 2/3 covered, but given a galactic scale, who knows how much they really know. One little dot on those pictures could be dozens of stars.

How do we reconcile the Jedi's statement? She was speaking of a star existing (and she was wrong), not a fully detailed map. Given thousands of years of looking at the skies, it probably is fair to say if a star isn't known to them, it doesn't exist.

But, that doesn't mean they know the details of what is there, or how to best get there. It can be known, but routes unmapped and system unexplored.



Of course; there are numerous unmapped hyperspace routes in the galaxy, and nobody really contests this. But I fail to see how this establishes Trek superiority in the exploration category at all, since Trek has no equivalent to hyperspace routes and thus cannot be compared.

Jocasta Nu indicates that the orbits of every star and every planet in the entire galaxy have been mapped out precisely. This does not equate to hyperspace routes being mapped everywhere, possibly due to a lack of really caring about the unknown regions.

Yet we see various instances of characters exploring the Unknown Regions via hyperdrive even without maps, implying that the lack of hyperspace routes is hardly as crippling as many Trekkies believe. Sure, it makes hyperspace travel slower and less efficient, and probably more dangerous, but it's still incalculably faster than warp drive. Obi Wan traveled to Kamino in what; a few hours? And Kamino obviously had no hyperspace routes mapped to it, and was on the edge of the Outer Rim.

Quote:
Now, we know they haven't settled a large fraction of the galaxy - there's tens of millions of colonies, but hundreds of billions of stars - but that could be due to there simply being no need.


Which brings up another interesting point: why are the Empire and the Federation fighting anyway? They don't seem to need expansion room, since they have their own. Even if it is expansion, they might be setting up craploads of colonies in the ST galaxy, next to the wormhole or whatever, and they just stumble upon some outer Federation colony too.



Why did Mandalore what to conquer the Republic, other than
[Reveal] Spoiler:
being influenced by the Sith Emperor, who promised him riches and reward?
The Federation certainly has resources of value to the Empire; technology, such as transporters, for example, and Palpatine is just one bastard, crazy mother.

Additionally, Palpatine could be using a war against the Evil Federation Commies as a distraction to internal problems at home. He would not be the first.

Quote:
The strategic implications here are more interesting than just rar kill:

a) The Imperials have something to defend here too. Once the people are set down, they might be there for years before encountering someone else.. by that point, they won't want to pack up and leave their new homes.

b) Neither side knows where the headquarters of the other is. Being able to destroy planets doesn't matter, since both of them see the other as a bunch of young colonies and a handful of starships from who knows where.


Just send in an imperial agent to buy a map from a random shop on a random Federation planet. In Enterprise, Archer revealed the coordinates of Earth on First Contact to an alien race that he hadn't even met yet. Granted, Archer was a lunatic, but the Dominion did not seem to have any problems with locating Earth. It's hardly hidden.

Quote:
c) Even if they do know, do they really want open the MAD can of worms? If they paste a Federation colony, maybe a starship will paste the Imperial colony. I could see the war escalating from there, as it goes into revenge for revenge and gets completely out of control... but they would want to avoid this path entirely since the goal is to ensure security of the colonies, not watch them get vaporized!


No, that won't happen. The war is far more one sided than you give it credit; no Federation starship is fast enough to locate an imperial colony, and most imperial member worlds would have planetary shields.

Quote:
d) Neither side may map the colonies fully either. If the expansion is based on a place to live, they'd surely focus on hyperspacing between the worlds they settle and the rest of the Empire, so something off route may be unknown.


Why not? Just bribe a starship captain into giving you a starmap. Or torture him, which is hardly above the Empire.

Quote:
e) As is common, working together means everyone wins; there's a good chance of a diplomatic solution to any conflicts. If fighting breaks out, it doesn't have to end with "everybody dies".


Tell that to Palpatine. Your last moments are bound to be painful and agonizing.

Quote:

Yeah. But if we don't know the speed, we should admit it is unknown or at least use one of the numbers we know instead of assuming "spam probe droids = instant perfect knowledge".

Currently, the best number presented is six years for one small part of the galaxy (which the wiki tells me is an extraordinarily difficult place to check out). It still looks like getting their bearings around the wormhole will take months or years, and seeing the whole galaxy is surely more.



See above. The Federation is extremely poor at guarding the locations of important planets, and hyperdrive still works without hyperspace routes mapped.

Or, at worst, just send in fleets of patrol ships to strategic sections of the galaxy, take scans, and then do the math to chart out the galaxy mathematically. It's not as though the Federation can hunt down random patrol boats appearing at random locations in the quintillion quintillion square kilometers of space.


Quote:

Your bombs don't mean anything if you have no idea what is and is not important to bomb!


They don't need to. If the Empire is sociopath-ic enough, they can literally genocide the Federation in a single day. They have more Base Delta Zero capable ships than the Federation has planets. Jump a fleet of star destroyers a million kilometers away from each Federation planet, and launch large bundles of nuclear missiles programmed to accelerate at random velocities and random vectors. Bye.
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2012-03-19 07:10pm 

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I doubt they would. Even the Empire doesn't usually do Base Delta Zeros. Aren't their fairly few in canon? I don't think I've ever heard of them wiping out an entire interstellar nation via orbital bombardment.

I'm not saying their are no circumstances under which the Empire would do that (they are evil after all), but I think even they would have to be pretty desperate. I think they'd be more interested in occupation and enslavement than genocide.
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fordlltwm
PostPosted: 2012-03-20 07:08pm 

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BDZ's are used for intimidation as well. They attempt one on Nar Shadda in the young Han Solo books, but are driven off by a combination of desperate smugglers, fuckwit commanders and an Admiral who's sold off the battle plans to the Hutts
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amigocabal
PostPosted: 2012-05-15 04:21pm 

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Okay, at this point we know that the Galactic Empire versus the Federation would be a curb stump battle similar that to between Dragonball Z's Frieza and the Galactic Empire (well, maybe not as much of a curb-stomp battle as between Frieza and the Empire, but still...)

There is still the debate about fleet to fleet engagements, individual ship-to-ship engagements, and duels between characters.
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PeZook
PostPosted: 2012-06-08 05:26am 

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Uh, why exactly would Palpatine force choke anyone who suggests "Oh Emperor supreme, lord of known space and god incarnate, perhaps our goals would be served better by not fighting the mongrel space communists?"

Wouldn't that depend ENTIRELY on what Palpatine's goals are? Hell, as an aside, why would the Empire even have any particular hatred of communism? :D
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Stofsk
PostPosted: 2012-06-08 05:34am 

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What don't Sith hate?
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2012-06-08 05:42am 

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Stofsk wrote:
What don't Sith hate?

unlimited power?
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the atom
PostPosted: 2012-06-08 09:07am 

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PeZook wrote:
Uh, why exactly would Palpatine force choke anyone who suggests "Oh Emperor supreme, lord of known space and god incarnate, perhaps our goals would be served better by not fighting the mongrel space communists?"

Wouldn't that depend ENTIRELY on what Palpatine's goals are? Hell, as an aside, why would the Empire even have any particular hatred of communism? :D


As somebody else pointed out to me earlier, Palpatine is an evil space wizard dedicated to doing evil things for the sake of being evil. Going after the Federation would of course be a massive waste of resources, but as anybody who has watched the movies knows, Palpatine isn't especially conservative when it comes to doing extravagant displays of his unlimited power! because y'know, he's an evil space wizard and such.
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amigocabal
PostPosted: 2012-06-08 12:07pm 

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
I doubt they would. Even the Empire doesn't usually do Base Delta Zeros. Aren't their fairly few in canon? I don't think I've ever heard of them wiping out an entire interstellar nation via orbital bombardment.

I'm not saying their are no circumstances under which the Empire would do that (they are evil after all), but I think even they would have to be pretty desperate. I think they'd be more interested in occupation and enslavement than genocide.

Of course, occupying the Federation would be a different matter. That would include occupying Afghanistan, and we know from history just how successful such endeavors are.
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hunter5
PostPosted: 2012-06-10 01:34pm 

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fordlltwm wrote:
BDZ's are used for intimidation as well. They attempt one on Nar Shadda in the young Han Solo books, but are driven off by a combination of desperate smugglers, fuckwit commanders and an Admiral who's sold off the battle plans to the Hutts
And secret orders from Imperial High command to fake a believable loss in a highly complicated plot to discredit the sector Moff.
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fordlltwm
PostPosted: 2012-06-15 01:10pm 

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hunter5 wrote:
fordlltwm wrote:
BDZ's are used for intimidation as well. They attempt one on Nar Shadda in the young Han Solo books, but are driven off by a combination of desperate smugglers, fuckwit commanders and an Admiral who's sold off the battle plans to the Hutts
And secret orders from Imperial High command to fake a believable loss in a highly complicated plot to discredit the sector Moff.



True enough, but doesn't the admiral bite it as well, by Lord Vader's hand IIRC?
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Batman
PostPosted: 2012-06-16 07:02pm 

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Doesn't change the fact that the Imperials never expected that BDZ to happen to begin with.
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EnterpriseSovereign
PostPosted: 2012-06-19 10:00am 

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amigocabal wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
I doubt they would. Even the Empire doesn't usually do Base Delta Zeros. Aren't their fairly few in canon? I don't think I've ever heard of them wiping out an entire interstellar nation via orbital bombardment.

I'm not saying their are no circumstances under which the Empire would do that (they are evil after all), but I think even they would have to be pretty desperate. I think they'd be more interested in occupation and enslavement than genocide.

Of course, occupying the Federation would be a different matter. That would include occupying Afghanistan, and we know from history just how successful such endeavors are.

The Imperial solution to a problem like Afghanistan would be orbital bombadment. It's the only way to be sure :wink:
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