Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Metahive »

darthy wrote:Quick red hearing you mean. I was speaking hypothetically if pop science said neutronium existed on some of the crust of our sun, that Darth Tedious would not accept it then just repeat himself about RL neutronium not being the same as SW neutronium with there being no universal agreed upon definition of what neutronium is.
You know, I have it up here with your repeated lying. Darth Tedious said nothing about Neutronium, that was I. To recapitulate, you said RL Neutronium had a billion times the strength of steel which would "prove" the Borg were able to forge durasteel because they totally "could have" assimilated the knowledge of making neutronium armor from someone else and durasteel is supposedly lower in strength than pure Neutronium. You then "supported" that claim by linking to a bunch of pop-science websites, even better, you linked to a google search containing links to pop-science websites, you didn't even bother to read even one of them besides the snippets Google offers. That's the typical way you've conducted yourself in all debates you participated in so far. BS claims, BS evidence, BS lies, BS smugness.

As for the "Red Hearing", here's what you said:
"So you'll buy into this stuff about hawking radiation, which supposedly exist where stars exploded millions of light years from here but you don't accept anything scientific when it comes to neutronium from our own sun which at least we know exists.". No "Red Hearing" on my behalf in there. The only thing wholly hypothetical in here is the assumption that you're not a bipedal turdsack with chronic honesty issues.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:Do you concede that the Dovin Basal would lose since you're unwilling to go back to them?
You still haven't addressed all of the points I raised back on page 6. Do you concede them, since you're unwilling to go back to them?

You still haven't addressed points that were raised against you from page 1. Do you concede them?
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Darth Tedious said nothing about Neutronium, that was I.
wow he never said anything about it? What about all this
Being able to assimilate Starfleet tech from the very near future is not indicative that they would be able to assimilate Imperial tech. The Borg were familiar with the Federation materials such as duranium and tritanium. They've almost never seen anything like Durasteel. Refer to VOY:'Think Tank', as I already said. Neutronium alloys are clearly stated to be beyond the Borg's ability to produce. Without the ability to utilise neutronium, the Borg are completely unable to regenerate DS parts.
Do the Borg have access to lommite? Xerxite? Tibanna gas? Any of the exotic minerals of the GFFA?
Can you prove that the Borg would be able to produce hypermatter? (Keep in mind, they can't produce Omega particles, and they've been researching them for years.)
To recapitulate, you said RL Neutronium had a billion times the strength of steel which would "prove" the Borg were able to forge durasteel because they totally "could have" assimilated the knowledge of making neutronium armor from someone else and durasteel is supposedly lower in strength than pure Neutronium.
I've had it with your lies too. I clearly said 10 billion times stronger, not 1 billion times stronger.

Here's the argument I was making there:

Injection tubules can penetrate any known alloy (evidenced by dialogue)
Neutronium is a known alloy in star trek (evidenced by it being known of in star trek)
Neutronium is stronger than durasteel (according to articles on the net about RL Neutronium)

This argument was in response to the claim that injection tubules cannot penetrate something as strong as durasteel so therefore could not assimilate any kind of star wars tech. No need to rehash this argument again, just telling you for clarification.
You then "supported" that claim by linking to a bunch of pop-science websites, even better, you linked to a google search containing links to pop-science websites, you didn't even bother to read even one of them besides the snippets Google offers. That's the typical way you've conducted yourself in all debates you participated in so far. BS claims, BS evidence, BS lies, BS smugness.
It sounds so funny when you word it like that. True enough, I didn't put much time into researching how factual it is. I still haven't. But comparing neutronium on star trek with neutronium on star wars shouldn't be regarded as the nail in the coffin of borg assimilation abilities. I could just as well say that star wars turbolasers won't do anything to the borg. We see how lasers are regarded on star trek:
WORF: Still no response. Captain, they are now locking lasers on us.
RIKER: Lasers?
WORF: Yes, sir.
PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?
RIKER; Regulations do call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well.
RIKER: May I ask why, sir?
PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One.
You still haven't addressed all of the points I raised back on page 6. Do you concede them, since you're unwilling to go back to them?

You still haven't addressed points that were raised against you from page 1. Do you concede them?
I don't concede any of those arguments. I'm too lazy / tired to go back and see what they were now, after you forced me to stay on the indefinite transporter suspension argument. You could have said "let's forget that one since its unimportant, tell me about the others" but we stayed on it for a couple pages instead. You'll have to rehash them again one by one instead of having me debunk them in batches.
You make a personal attack against me, based on a spelling mistake in Latin, and then you butcher the English language with travesty such as this?
:D I believe I was just focused on attacking the argument rather than the person until you guys started doing it first. I could care less if you can't spell, but if you're going to reduce yourselves to ad hominem attacks in your frustrations then you should at least allow the other side to have some fun doing it back.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by HMS Sophia »

darthy wrote: I could just as well say that star wars turbolasers won't do anything to the borg. We see how lasers are regarded on star trek:
WORF: Still no response. Captain, they are now locking lasers on us.
RIKER: Lasers?
WORF: Yes, sir.
PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?
RIKER; Regulations do call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well.
RIKER: May I ask why, sir?
PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One.
Are you really that much of a fuck-head? You really made that claim on this site...
OK, just to save time:
1) Turbo-lasers are not lasers. They do not act like lasers. They do not interact with star-ships like lasers. Therefore: not lasers!
2) That shield would not deflect all lasers. That sir is a no-limits fallacy. A turbo-laser is much higher powered weapon than anything in the ST universe anyway (at least anything on a normal ship).
3) Go read some past threads. This is all covered.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

barnest2 wrote:
darthy wrote: I could just as well say that star wars turbolasers won't do anything to the borg. We see how lasers are regarded on star trek:
WORF: Still no response. Captain, they are now locking lasers on us.
RIKER: Lasers?
WORF: Yes, sir.
PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?
RIKER; Regulations do call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well.
RIKER: May I ask why, sir?
PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One.
Are you really that much of a fuck-head? You really made that claim on this site...
OK, just to save time:
1) Turbo-lasers are not lasers. They do not act like lasers. They do not interact with star-ships like lasers. Therefore: not lasers!
2) That shield would not deflect all lasers. That sir is a no-limits fallacy. A turbo-laser is much higher powered weapon than anything in the ST universe anyway (at least anything on a normal ship).
3) Go read some past threads. This is all covered.
I'm not making the claim, I'm saying that their argument about neutronium is as silly as that claim. If you want to go down that route though... the borg cutting beam was called a laser even though it didn't behave like one either. Star trek and star wars could be refering to lasers in the same manner for all we know. Plus I've come across various tech manuals of star wars that refer to the turbo-lasers as shooting light or whatever.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Simon_Jester »

Guys?

This guy is a bad parody. I get the feeling he's taking his arguments off the main webpage- the ones the main webpage looks at, addresses, and dismisses as exploded.

We're being trolled.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by HMS Sophia »

Simon_Jester wrote:Guys?

This guy is a bad parody. I get the feeling he's taking his arguments off the main webpage- the ones the main webpage looks at, addresses, and dismisses as exploded.

We're being trolled.
Ha. You're probably right. It's still funny to see a live one on the site...
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Simon_Jester wrote:Guys?

This guy is a bad parody. I get the feeling he's taking his arguments off the main webpage- the ones the main webpage looks at, addresses, and dismisses as exploded.

We're being trolled.
I don't think I'm a troll.

Let's look at episode "Peak Performance" of the next generation
KOLRAMI: Correct. Engineering will disconnect the Enterprise's weapons and link the system with the modified laser-pulse beam. All hits will be recorded electronically. If the computer registers damage, it will act accordingly, shutting down the affected areas for the appropriate repair time. Additional questions? Captain Picard, it is my understanding that you initially resisted Starfleet's request for this simulation.
What we see as a "laser" in that episode looks like what you would see as a "laser" on star wars. Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hZgpcNX ... re=related at time 5:22 They even almost sound identical. It's like picard was thinking about a star destroyer when he made the statement about lasers.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Big Phil »

darthy wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Guys?

This guy is a bad parody. I get the feeling he's taking his arguments off the main webpage- the ones the main webpage looks at, addresses, and dismisses as exploded.

We're being trolled.
I don't think I'm a troll.

Let's look at episode "Peak Performance" of the next generation
KOLRAMI: Correct. Engineering will disconnect the Enterprise's weapons and link the system with the modified laser-pulse beam. All hits will be recorded electronically. If the computer registers damage, it will act accordingly, shutting down the affected areas for the appropriate repair time. Additional questions? Captain Picard, it is my understanding that you initially resisted Starfleet's request for this simulation.
What we see as a "laser" in that episode looks like what you would see as a "laser" on star wars. Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hZgpcNX ... re=related at time 5:22 They even almost sound identical. It's like picard was thinking about a star destroyer when he made the statement about lasers.
If you're not a troll, I'm guessing you're about 20 years old, have never kissed a girl, live in your parent's smelly basement or in a smelly dorm room, and "winning" this argument would be the peak of your life's achievements.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

SancheztheWhaler wrote: If you're not a troll, I'm guessing you're about 20 years old, have never kissed a girl, live in your parent's smelly basement or in a smelly dorm room, and "winning" this argument would be the peak of your life's achievements.
haha no but i'm not a troll either. Let's forget i brought up the lasers. It was an analogy and not worth arguing over right now.

Back to this crap:
* Special Ops - commando team infiltrates the Death Star, plants a bomb, and blows up the reactor. Boom, no more Death Star
Sounds simple enough, no? The first Death Star was destroyed because the empire allowed its death star's design plans to fall into enemy hands. The second, because the emperor stupidly gave the plans to the rebels. Without these plans, a special ops team would not seem to be a good strategy without not knowing where to begin. However, since the death star is imperial property it stands to reason that what's left of the empire has access to these plans so maybe the empire could launch some sort of special ops.

This would involve taking a special ops team all the way into the heart of the death star undetected. We're not talking about dressing up as a couple of storm troopers and strolling their way to it like in a new hope. They would need to do something more like what was done in voyager episode "Unimatrix zero pt 1" to be unnoticed. They are likely to find themselves beamed into an assimilation chamber or trapped behind some borg force field for their troubles.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Imperial528 »

Or they could use Dark Troopers with jammers mounted on them to simply storm the place. Or just normal commandos with portable jammers. With Imperial equipment, they really could just brute force their way through any Borg installation.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Imperial528 wrote:Or they could use Dark Troopers with jammers mounted on them to simply storm the place. Or just normal commandos with portable jammers. With Imperial equipment, they really could just brute force their way through any Borg installation.
Video games and comic books, gotta love the star wars EU. The borg have some pretty impressive technology in the video games too you know. The emperor got rid of all droids after the clone wars, that would include those dark troopers. The borg can turn on every force field they have in the event of an attack like that. Drones would be able to walk through them.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Azron_Stoma »

darthy wrote:Video games and comic books, gotta love the star wars EU. The borg have some pretty impressive technology in the video games too you know. The emperor got rid of all droids after the clone wars, that would include those dark troopers. The borg can turn on every force field they have in the event of an attack like that. Drones would be able to walk through them.
Shame the Trek games aren't canon while Wars ones are. Also It's stated in the Visual Dictionary that Clone Troopers can walk through force fields. (like the Jem'hadar or Borg Drones) So there's a very, very good bet that Dark Troopers can too.

Also, why do in the event of an intruder boarding party, does no one ever turn on all the security force fields? (They only ever turn on maybe 2 in one hallway. Rather than turn on all of them and then turn them off one by one until only enough to contain the intruder(s) are left up) Least of all the Borg who wait until the intruders wreck up the place before they start giving a shit.

Especially since even if they couldn't walk through force fields they could always just shoot their way out, either by overloading the fields or just blasting through the walls/floor/ceiling.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Imperial528 »

darthy wrote:Video games and comic books, gotta love the star wars EU. The borg have some pretty impressive technology in the video games too you know. The emperor got rid of all droids after the clone wars, that would include those dark troopers. The borg can turn on every force field they have in the event of an attack like that. Drones would be able to walk through them.
After watching the threads you've been on, and reading the above statement, I really don't think you have a damned clue about the canon of either Wars or Trek. As Azron_Stoma, has pointed out, rarely do Borg raise forcefields against borders, neither do they use transporters to move boarders to where they can be dealt with easily.

Additionally, Dark Troopers came after the Clone Wars, and the project was endorsed by the Emperor himself, since the final result was basically a walking tank in the form of an exoskeleton. And I hope your statement "The emperor got rid of all droids after the clone wars" isn't intended as a blanket one, since Imperial droids are seen in the films.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

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Shame the Trek games aren't canon while Wars ones are. Also It's stated in the Visual Dictionary that Clone Troopers can walk through force fields. (like the Jem'hadar or Borg Drones) So there's a very, very good bet that Dark Troopers can too.
Fortunately a debate doesn't have to be canon vs canon. The borg diamonds can take over the star wars tech with borg nanites, create nebula that swallow the ships, or project a field around any ship making it indestructable for a while.

According to Chapter 11: Year 3-The Outer Rim Sieges of the star wars clone wars mini-series, the clone troopers weren't able to get through shields there.
Also, why do in the event of an intruder boarding party, does no one ever turn on all the security force fields? (They only ever turn on maybe 2 in one hallway. Rather than turn on all of them and then turn them off one by one until only enough to contain the intruder(s) are left up) Least of all the Borg who wait until the intruders wreck up the place before they start giving a shit.
The borg ignore the enemy until they consider them a threat. If massive amounts of troops started to enter the death star then they'd start giving a shit pretty quick. The borg do have force fields on in sensitive areas at all times like around the central plexus area. The borg turn on as many fields as necessary to contain intruders. The borg drones have fields around them too. They'd adapt to the weapons of troopers pretty quick I'd imagine.
Especially since even if they couldn't walk through force fields they could always just shoot their way out, either by overloading the fields or just blasting through the walls/floor/ceiling.
Yeah maybe they'll blast their way into a magnetically sealed garbage room. Actually if the borg assimilated sw tech, they'd probably have some EMP grenades laying around. That'd take care of the droids.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

After watching the threads you've been on, and reading the above statement, I really don't think you have a damned clue about the canon of either Wars or Trek. As Azron_Stoma, has pointed out, rarely do Borg raise forcefields against borders, neither do they use transporters to move boarders to where they can be dealt with easily.
they used forcefields to contain intruders in episode "unimatrix zero", "dark frontier", star trek first contact, possibly episode "the raven" if you consider seven a borg when seven used a forcefield to contain tuvok after he boarded seven's shuttle. The borg queen used a transporter to capture the Janeway from the future and put her in containment.

You know nothing of canon from either franchise. You're hardly in a position to judge huh? :wink:
Additionally, Dark Troopers came after the Clone Wars, and the project was endorsed by the Emperor himself, since the final result was basically a walking tank in the form of an exoskeleton. And I hope your statement "The emperor got rid of all droids after the clone wars" isn't intended as a blanket one, since Imperial droids are seen in the films.
Even so, it sounds like these Dark Troopers were rare so no reason to think the empire would send these type of forces in. If you're going to use encounters that are theoretically possible then it's only fair that you cannot argue against borg tactics which are also theoretically possible albeit not used that often.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

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darthy wrote:they used forcefields to contain intruders in episode "unimatrix zero", "dark frontier", star trek first contact, possibly episode "the raven" if you consider seven a borg when seven used a forcefield to contain tuvok after he boarded seven's shuttle.
Seven using a Federation forcefield to keep Tuvok from reaching the cockpit isn't an example of Borg action, I should think, since shuttle forcefields have been used like that many times by non-Borg or non-ex-Borg.

From memory, I can recall several times when Federation away teams have boarded Borg ships without being hindered by internal forcefields, unfortunately I can't remember the episode names, although I will seek them out. Additionally, during on of the instances where the Borg actually used internal shielding to hinder progress through the ship, the away team was able to easily locate and destroy the shield generators. Surely an Imperial team could do the same, or at the least blast the emitters away.
The borg queen used a transporter to capture the Janeway from the future and put her in containment.
I really don't think that counts, since that is an example of using a transporter to move someone from a neighboring vessel into a borg ship, and I think it's the only instance of using the transporter to do so in the franchise, or at least of the Borg episodes I know of.
You know nothing of canon from either franchise. You're hardly in a position to judge huh? :wink:
Hey, at least I'm not using my own speculative theories as proof and making blanket statements that completely ignore canon.
Even so, it sounds like these Dark Troopers were rare so no reason to think the empire would send these type of forces in. If you're going to use encounters that are theoretically possible then it's only fair that you cannot argue against borg tactics which are also theoretically possible albeit not used that often.
Dark troopers and their varients have been deployed numerous times throughout the galaxy. The canon amount of them is a bit shaky, but given the situation (somehow the Borg aquire a Death Star II?), it would not surprise me in the least if the remaining existing Dark troopers were called into service to take out this threat. And even if that is unlikely, it's not like the Empire doesn't already have countless other models of droids of similar capacity that could fill their place. (Such as the SD series of droids or the X1-Viper droid)
Even if we do accept that the Borg would raise every force field in their assimilated Death Star, despite them never having raised every internal field inside one of their own ships, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Imperial droids could simply brute force their way through, especially given the firepower disparity between Wars and Trek along with the different operating principles of each side's technology removing many of the Borg's adaptation strategies.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

I really don't think that counts, since that is an example of using a transporter to move someone from a neighboring vessel into a borg ship, and I think it's the only instance of using the transporter to do so in the franchise, or at least of the Borg episodes I know of.
Image
Hey, at least I'm not using my own speculative theories as proof and making blanket statements that completely ignore canon.
gezz you break easy. You could have at least tried to prove you know more or something.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Imperial528 »

darthy wrote:(image sniped)
Thank you for reminding me of that one, I've not been able to watch TNG recently (I only get it on BBC, which has been down for me, so I'm stuck with ENT), so that moment had faded from memory.

Of course, that's still an instance of the Borg transporting someone OUTSIDE the Borg ship INTO the Borg ship, now show me an instance where the Borg have used a transporter to move boarders around on the inside of any Borg vessel.
gezz you break easy. You could have at least tried to prove you know more or something.
In case you haven't noticed, I haven't conceded, and I don't intend to unless you manage to address all of my points sufficiently. And you've ignored several of my points already.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Thank you for reminding me of that one, I've not been able to watch TNG recently (I only get it on BBC, which has been down for me, so I'm stuck with ENT), so that moment had faded from memory.
ok the borg transported janeway from voyager to a borg cube in episode "scorpion pt 1" also.
Of course, that's still an instance of the Borg transporting someone OUTSIDE the Borg ship INTO the Borg ship, now show me an instance where the Borg have used a transporter to move boarders around on the inside of any Borg vessel.
can't think of any right now.
In case you haven't noticed, I haven't conceded, and I don't intend to unless you manage to address all of my points sufficiently. And you've ignored several of my points already.
I appreciate the second effort but your next post became much more timid. Your reply to me from telling you that you knew nothing of canon you just stated "well at least I... etc.. etc...". I took that as a silent concession. You challenged me then broke within a single post. :(
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Azron_Stoma »

darthy wrote:Fortunately a debate doesn't have to be canon vs canon.
Really? That explains allot about your tendency to make stuff up and pull from non-canon sources if you believe that.

Sorry but evidence MUST be canon.
The borg ignore the enemy until they consider them a threat. If massive amounts of troops started to enter the death star then they'd start giving a shit pretty quick. The borg do have force fields on in sensitive areas at all times like around the central plexus area. The borg turn on as many fields as necessary to contain intruders.
The Borg have consistently Ignored heavily armed parties going through their territory, the only time they ever attack without provocation is the if they enter the Central Plexus or similar area, which a station or ship can be destroyed without going anywhere near.

The borg drones have fields around them too. They'd adapt to the weapons of troopers pretty quick I'd imagine.
Considering Blasters fire hot plasma with incoherent energy and the Borg can't handle cold plasma or coherent energy that they haven't matched frequencies with. That would be a no. Not to mention the fact that Imperials use kinetic weaponry and such as well. Which the Borg have likewise shown a weakness to.
Yeah maybe they'll blast their way into a magnetically sealed garbage room. Actually if the borg assimilated sw tech, they'd probably have some EMP grenades laying around. That'd take care of the droids.
Oh yes, people or droids with detailed schematics of the station would accidentally blast their way into something they didn't expect to see. Also Borg have never used anything resembling a land mine or anything of the sort. Since they are notorious in their lack of tactics and ingenuity, we can safely rule that possibility out.
ok the borg transported janeway from voyager to a borg cube in episode "scorpion pt 1" also.


You're looking for evidence of Borg transporting someone who is already on their ship to another section of their ship, like a brig/assimilation chamber, or hell even out into space.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Really? That explains allot about your tendency to make stuff up and pull from non-canon sources if you believe that.
Hey I don't think I was talking to you but whatever. Ouch. I stick with canon as much as I can. Sometimes I fall back on logic. Actually it's you guys who violate canon when you pretty much assume 90% of what is said on star trek isn't factual when is suits your purpose. I give quotes and provide where they come from so people can verify what i'm telling them. I don't see much of that in return.
Sorry but evidence MUST be canon.
hmm... NO. It says so here http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Misc/Canon.html

I'm sure that's the way certain people like it because star wars canon is broad and star trek canon is narrow. As long as the terms of what is considered canon in the debate are agreed upon, it's okay to broaden or restrict canon however one wishes. This hasn't been done. A real treky wouldn't concede defeat over a technicality found in a star wars reference guide, footnote, comic book, video game, etc... The whole point is to convince the other person you're right and they're wrong. Think of it as both parties defining canon between themselves and agreeing to use what they defined. In that sense, once canon is defined, the evidence MUST be "canon" as they agree for it to be defined.

I'll work within the rules of canon here just so I don't hear whineing about it but if you really think it's a requirement you're sadly mistaken. :lol: It doesn't have to be that way. I've been to debate boards that outlaw ICS for example. You really didn't know this? :o
The Borg have consistently Ignored heavily armed parties going through their territory, the only time they ever attack without provocation is the if they enter the Central Plexus or similar area, which a station or ship can be destroyed without going anywhere near.
That's the point. It was being proposed that they'd take out the main reactor with a bomb. They wouldn't be allowed there without being resisted. The death star has shields anyway. They wouldn't get inside easily. A combination of a direct assault and covert op mission would be needed from the sounds of it.
Considering Blasters fire hot plasma with incoherent energy and the Borg can't handle cold plasma or coherent energy that they haven't matched frequencies with. That would be a no. Not to mention the fact that Imperials use kinetic weaponry and such as well. Which the Borg have likewise shown a weakness to.
This is kinda along the same lines I was talking about before. It's ok to mention your sources here and explain why you think it is so. Warsies tends to downgrade how powerful star trek weapons actually are. Here's some examples:

star trek has countless canon proof that people get vaporized from phaser fire making it more powerful than blasters. It is something supported by tons of dialogue and certain visuals such as vapor appearing afterward. Because of certain scientific restrictions, the visuals are picked apart and the energy output of st weapons is downgraded. Phasers are called chain reaction weapons as a result even if countless dialogue also states they are directed energy weapons.

A star trek fan will tell you the borg will adapt to a blaster just like they do a phaser. The destructive firepower of a blaster is less impressive than a phaser. If a borg can adapt to a phaser, it can adapt to a blaser. A star trek / star wars writer wouldn't permit you to make weapons that the borg cannot adapt to.

Your assumption about kinetic weapons and the borg's ability to adapt to them is stupid. Away teams would have beamed over to borg vessels with machine guns if it were the case on the star trek series. If Worf can make a portable force field with his communicator on the holodeck to protect himself from bullets ("a fistful of datas"), I think the borg would do it too. Call me crazy.
Also Borg have never used anything resembling a land mine or anything of the sort. Since they are notorious in their lack of tactics and ingenuity, we can safely rule that possibility out.
Most likely this collective in star wars won't behave like the collective from star trek since they are no doubt seperated from the collective from star trek. The hive mind is that of a star wars mentality. If the borg assimilated the knowledge of an EMP grenade and had access to them, they would at least consider using them if they knew it would counteract resistence from artificial beings. It doesn't matter if they never used them before. No doubt they've assimilated people from star wars. The collective minds of the officers from the star wars galaxy would be thinking to use the EMP grenades then that's what they use.
You're looking for evidence of Borg transporting someone who is already on their ship to another section of their ship, like a brig/assimilation chamber, or hell even out into space.
We won't find much considering most races don't board borg vessels.

In episode "Collective". Chakotay, Nelix, and Tom woke up in an assimilation chamber. They were no doubt beamed in there from the shuttle which was inside the cube docked with it. When Mezoti caught Kim trying to sabotosh the shield generator on a borg cube, we don't see him again until later where he is in another area of the ship and unconscious. I don't Kim would have surrendered to the girl. Most likely she overpowered him somehow. Probably by activating a forcefield near him the way she did with Tom. I doubt she dragged him all the way to another section of the ship. We know that the ship had transporter capability since 7 of 9 beamed the infant drone to voyager.

That's about all I have right now. Hopefully that triggers your common sense that if the borg have transporter capability, they will use it if it's the most efficient thing to do. To me it's just common sense not to assume they wouldn't.
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Imperial528
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Imperial528 »

darthy wrote:ok the borg transported janeway from voyager to a borg cube in episode "scorpion pt 1" also.
Which still doesn't help your cause.
can't think of any right now.
And now isn't that a problem for you? Since without that, your plan of repelling Imperial boarder parties simply falls apart.
I appreciate the second effort but your next post became much more timid. Your reply to me from telling you that you knew nothing of canon you just stated "well at least I... etc.. etc...". I took that as a silent concession. You challenged me then broke within a single post. :(
Silent concession? It was mockery.
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Azron_Stoma
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Azron_Stoma »

darthy wrote:*snipped irrelevant bs*
hmm... YES. The only time where it even suggests you can have your own idea of canon is in Method #1, here
"There's really not much to be said about this method. To be honest, most people go this way, and there's really nothing wrong with it, until they get involved in sci-fi debating. That's where you need to come to some sort of consensus about what is and isn't canon."
Note the Caveat.
I've been to debate boards that outlaw ICS for example. You really didn't know this? :o


Of course I'm aware of boards that Ignore Lucasfilm's policy in favor of whatever the hell they want, however, here we follow the proper policies.

Besides I'd hardly consider 10 movies and 716 Episodes to be "Narrow"
star trek has countless canon proof that people get from phaser fire making it more powerful than blasters. It is something supported by tons of dialogue and certain visuals such as vapor appearing afterward.


Name one instance where the vapour from 80kgs of water is ever shown after someone is disintegrated.
Because of certain scientific restrictions, the visuals are picked apart and the energy output of st weapons is downgraded. Phasers are called chain reaction weapons as a result even if countless dialogue also states they are directed energy weapons.
A directed energy weapon can still work on a chain reaction principle, and Phasers do just that. Also visuals trump dialogue.
A star trek fan will tell you the borg will adapt to a blaster just like they do a phaser.
Said Star Trek fan would be mistaken.

quote]The destructive firepower of a blaster is less impressive than a phaser.[/quote]

uh, no, I'm afraid it's the other way around.
If a borg can adapt to a phaser, it can adapt to a blaser. A star trek / star wars writer wouldn't permit you to make weapons that the borg cannot adapt to.
As evidenced by you saying so.
Your assumption about kinetic weapons and the borg's ability to adapt to them is stupid. Away teams would have beamed over to borg vessels with machine guns if it were the case on the star trek series. If Worf can make a portable force field with his communicator on the holodeck to protect himself from bullets ("a fistful of datas"), I think the borg would do it too. Call me crazy.


Again that would require ingenuity that the Borg do not have, they have been consistently harmed or killed by kinetic energy.

That the Federation never thought to equip their away teams with projectile weapons is simply their fault. They have shown constantly that they often prefer overly complicated technobable solutions when a far simpler one is available.
sniped borgwank
Honestly I'm not even sure how to explain everything that's wrong with that statement, first off a Borg Collective is a Borg Collective, there is zero evidence that they would act any differently beyond your saying so.
*snipped presumption and wild speculation*
Borg don't have common sense, so what is common sense to you is, as they would say, Irrelevant.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Stofsk »

Azron_Stoma wrote:
The destructive firepower of a blaster is less impressive than a phaser.
uh, no, I'm afraid it's the other way around.
Uh no, it's not. A blaster can kill people sure, it can put holes into walls the size of a clenched fist*, but we also see Leia get shot with one and it was barely enough to singe her arm (for that matter, we also see Luke's robotic hand get shot too, and not only did his hand not get blown apart but it was still working after the battle!). When we do see people get shot and killed by a blaster, they don't explode or get 3rd degree burns all over their body eg the Rebel defenders on Tantive IV's corpses were pretty much all intact, and so were the Imperial guards in the Death Star's detention block. I suppose you could say that Greedo was burnt and smoking, and so was Owen and Beru, as well as some of the Rebels at Hoth. All that shows is blaster fire effects are pretty variable - just like phasers on Star Trek.

* Of course, since we don't know how strong the walls are in Bespin, nor what materials they're made from, this doesn't tell us a whole lot. Hell Padme and her guards in TPM had blasters which hit the walls of the Naboo palace, and didn't do anything to them. Han's blaster meanwhile rips chunks out of Docking Bay 94's walls. Variable effects indeed. But Han's blaster is pretty high-end, and when he shoots someone they're not totally obliterated.

So lets talk about those phasers. If set to kill a beam from a phaser totally obliterates a target. Set to its highest level and on wide-beam we see them destroy metres worth of rock and used to carve a makeshift tunnel inside of a cave, plus Riker said on the exact same setting that they can take out the side of a building he was in**. We've also seen phasers used to heat up rocks, and we've witnessed phasers provide enough power to propel a crashed shuttlecraft from a planet's surface into orbit for a time. All these things are more impressive and more destructive than every observed characteristic of Star Wars blasters. They're also pretty high-end, most of the time we see phasers set to stun targets, or put on the milder 'kill' settings (which seem to cause burns but otherwise leave bodies intact).

** Yes, I know that scene was all in his mind. That's not the point. In fact, the context of that scene shows that the phaser didn't do what he was expecting, thus he knew he was hallucinating.

Note that darthy says 'targets are vapourised' which isn't true (hint darthy: when there's no vapour, there is no vapourisation). But that doesn't mean targets aren't completely obliterated. I disagree with a lot of his points, but he's right in this regard. For that matter, the whole 'Borg can't adapt to SW tech' is really a wtf point. While darthy makes a lot of generous assumptions about the borg's ability to adapt and may even be committing no-limits fallacies as a result, the rebuttal that 'oh hey borg just can't adapt' is pretty asinine and is just as bad as saying borg can adapt to anything without any limit. What you're assuming there is that SW tech is just so special that no adaptation is possible, which we know is bullshit because guess what, they have portable anti-blaster shielding in Star Wars.
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