Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

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darthy
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Still, that doesn't strengthen your point about neural patterns containing the sum total of a person's being. Not that I needed to counter that in the first place, but honestly, your arguments were duplicitous and deserved to be countered.

To wit: you claim the process is perfect. You can't strengthen this claim by pointing to cases where some knowledge is being transferred, particularly not when we know that mental trauma commonly affects ex-Borg.
It's common knowledge in star trek that neural patterns are what make up our consciousness. It's stated in voyager episode "warlord" that Tieran has been transferring his neural pattern for a couple hundred years.

The Ux-Mal criminals from the next generation episode "power play" transferred their consciousness into troi, obrian, and data. Doctor crusher said they did this by superimposed their neural patterns on them.

Vantika was able to transfer his consciousness by transmitting his neural pattern to bashir in episode "the passenger".

Here's a quote from voyager episode "infinite regress"
EMH: This is your neural pattern. The memory engrams and synaptic pathways that define you as an individual. Unfortunately, you're not alone. Thirteen new neural patterns have emerged in your cerebral cortex. Klingon, Vulcan, Terrelian, Human and several others I can't identify.
SEVEN: How?
EMH: They're coming from within you. During your time with the Borg, the Collective assimilated hundreds of different species. All of those neural patterns were integrated into the Hive Mind.
SEVEN: Of course.
EMH: That means they're in your mind too, stored within your cortical implants. Dormant until now.
The EMH tells you word for word what it is.
Perhaps it is implied, and I would honestly not be violently opposed to it. What I'm opposed to is the idea that this chaotic bundle of impulses can be perfectly analysed and flawlessly collated, when we know the Borg are dumb. It's not me here trying to act like an ass, but observation: the point of Scorpion (Voyager) as I recall it was exactly that Janeway could aid the Borg... with science. How? Well, it's obvious Voyager can't match the Borg for computing power or scientific data, and if we're talking implications, the obvious one is that the drive and innovation of the Federation is something the Borg lack.

They're not creative. And if they are to build a whole new infrastructure that is to be protected from harm, using personnel who are military end users rather than personnel within the same infrastructure, they'll need creativity and more.
If the borg were dumb then they wouldn't be able to assimilate thousands of worlds. 7 of 9 wouldn't have been regarded by harry kim as the most intelligent person alive. Judging by your statements all the evidence is there that you're wrong but you're in denial because of a personal bias against the borg. The borg were aided by the EMH doctor's knowledge. It was another artificial lifeform's work, not Janeway.
In all honesty, though, I think it would make the greatest amount of sense -- and be the most interesting, dramatically -- for the Borg to separate storage and indexing as concepts. Much like you don't remember all the sites on the Internet, the Borg might be working with a relative small matrix of well-ordered fact and then continually scan and process the rest from the sum total of their assimilated creatures. Perhaps they flag the stuff that representatives of high-order civilisations are emotionally invested in and give that priority. The rest will be there, but part of a vast dataspace that won't necessarily be easy to use until they get around to indexing it.

Following that analogy, say a random Corellian tramp freighter enters Borg space in a TIE and is assimilated. Some of the crew will most likely have been thinking stuff like "why didn't I pack bigger guns/faster engines" as they fought, so the Borg would find out about the existence of said technologies pretty much instantly, but that subjective impression wouldn't be very useful at all. Even knowing that you hook in a Novaldex (TM) module to a TurboBlix circuit to create a Three-Stage Laser (which is also a brand name) won't give them very much more than a hint as to which planetary system(s) they should order their parts from. It's the same with us today.
Using an analogy of building a computer from scratch, no single person knows how to do that. How to mine gold, plastic, iron, other raw materials; refining the metals and removing impurities from them, make the circuit boards, processors, computer memory, speakers, lights, electricity in general etc.. etc.. If the borg assimilated humanity, they would be able to tell you in detail step by step how to make a computer from scratch. Assimilation gives the Collective more knowledge about technology than any one scientist, engineer, or other person. If the borg assimilated enough of the empire, the empire would be at a significant disadvantage with the borg knowing more about their technology than even they do.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

All right then Mr Genius useless hatfucker, explain the Voyager episode "Counterpart." In that episode, they use the transport buffers to hide telepaths from the local boss-dudes. Tuvok says this cannot be maintained for long periods. And that is with transporter tech 75 years more advanced than what Scotty had on hand. In fact, if we take La Forge's line about "transporter technology hasn't changed much in 75 years" at face value, which you love doing with dialogue, then its the same tech.

Also you have to consider that Scotty's trick on the Jenolen was, by his own admission a jury-rig. He did not know if it would work. He suddenly did not expect it to have to last 75 years. Quite frankly, he got lucky.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Which it was intended to do in the hands of the Empire and the Emperor. The Empire has many kinds of resources other than the Death Star (such as the industrial base to supply Death Stars with fuel and spare parts on the gargantuan scale required). Without those other resources, a Death Star may become a lot less scary.
The Death Star can't roam the galaxy destroying the empire planet by planet. It would take too long. It's assumed that the borg would expand from the Death Star and assimilate these resources. The Death Star is their most valuable resource. It contains more firepower than half of starfleet.
Which is more likely, that the DS2 was designed to be utterly invincible, or that it has some kind of 'backdoor' designed to allow Palpatine to neutralize it should it somehow be turned against him? Does Palpatine strike you as the kind of person likely to build a weapon that can easily defeat him if it falls into the wrong hands?
If it's not mentioned in any tech manuals then I won't acknowledge the existence of a backdoor of course. The Sun Crusher was taken over by Solo and used it to escape Maw Installation. Where was the backdoor there? Plus Luke said that Palpatine's weakness was he was over confident. He's not paranoid enough to put in a backdoor.
Why would they learn of its construction and successfully take it over from the Empire or destroy it before it was operational, when the Rebel Alliance failed to do so twice despite having a home court advantage the Borg don't share?

The first time, they didn't even get the plans to the Death Star until it was already armed and operational, at least to the extent of having its planet-killing main gun working. The second time, they got wind of construction far enough ahead of time to mount a strike on the construction site... and it was a trap! The DS2 was already armed and ready for battle, even if it wasn't mobile.
They get the knowledge of the new death star plans by assimilating people. A big project like the death star cannot be kept a secret in the minds of everyone in the empire. It's just too big a project. It would seem more efficient to make as many star destroyers as possible instead. That way they don't dump all their resources into a single station.
What would stop the Borg from getting suckered into the same kind of trap- say, the Empire starts construction of another Death Star, they go "oh-ho, let's assimilate it with our first Death Star," they show up, and WHAM! The "unfinished" Death Star III blows up the captured DS-II with its superlaser.
There's no grantee the borg won't learn it's a trap. They may just send assimilated ships to the area first before sending the death star or not even send the death star at all to assimilate their new death star. The borg might have adapted to the death star's superlaser after assimilating that technology too. Kinda like how the borg were able to adapt to concentrated burst of power from the main deflector dish after assimilating picards knowledge. Nice try though. That's the kind of stuff I was hopeing for instead of expecting me justify the scenario can happen.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

darthy wrote:Where was the backdoor there? Plus Luke said that Palpatine's weakness was he was over confident. He's not paranoid enough to put in a backdoor.
And yet that is precisely what he did with the World Devastators. You sir are a dishonest debator, and a moron to boot.
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Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Simon_Jester »

darthy wrote:
Which it was intended to do in the hands of the Empire and the Emperor. The Empire has many kinds of resources other than the Death Star (such as the industrial base to supply Death Stars with fuel and spare parts on the gargantuan scale required). Without those other resources, a Death Star may become a lot less scary.
The Death Star can't roam the galaxy destroying the empire planet by planet. It would take too long. It's assumed that the borg would expand from the Death Star and assimilate these resources. The Death Star is their most valuable resource. It contains more firepower than half of starfleet.
Why would they be guaranteed to succeed? Having a plan does not confer success, and most of the really worthwhile targets for Borg assimilation can put up enough of a fight to force the Borg to destroy the target with the DS-II rather than assimilate it. Not good from their perspective.
Which is more likely, that the DS2 was designed to be utterly invincible, or that it has some kind of 'backdoor' designed to allow Palpatine to neutralize it should it somehow be turned against him? Does Palpatine strike you as the kind of person likely to build a weapon that can easily defeat him if it falls into the wrong hands?
If it's not mentioned in any tech manuals then I won't acknowledge the existence of a backdoor of course.
And I won't acknowledge the Borg's ability to make the DS-II operate in the first place without the fleet support infrastructure to run it; stalemate.
They get the knowledge of the new death star plans by assimilating people. A big project like the death star cannot be kept a secret in the minds of everyone in the empire. It's just too big a project. It would seem more efficient to make as many star destroyers as possible instead. That way they don't dump all their resources into a single station.
Knowledge of the second Death Star's actual location was kept limited to a very small circle of people that the Rebel alliance had to work very hard to penetrate: "Many Bothans died to bring us this information."

How would the Borg obtain this information? They would have to find those specific people and assimilate them, and they don't know who the people they're looking for are. Nor can they easily guess, because the Borg don't do normal intelligence work or infiltration very well; they just rely on whatever happens to be in the memories of their captives. If I don't know about the construction of the DS-III, and I don't know that the secret exists to be known, the Borg gain nothing useful from assimilating me.
What would stop the Borg from getting suckered into the same kind of trap- say, the Empire starts construction of another Death Star, they go "oh-ho, let's assimilate it with our first Death Star," they show up, and WHAM! The "unfinished" Death Star III blows up the captured DS-II with its superlaser.
There's no grantee the borg won't learn it's a trap. They may just send assimilated ships to the area first before sending the death star or not even send the death star at all to assimilate their new death star. The borg might have adapted to the death star's superlaser after assimilating that technology too. Kinda like how the borg were able to adapt to concentrated burst of power from the main deflector dish after assimilating picards knowledge. Nice try though. That's the kind of stuff I was hopeing for instead of expecting me justify the scenario can happen.
By the way, in case you don't know, proper nouns are capitalized in English, like "Borg" and "Picard."

Thing is, the scenario is still kind of dumb, because it's based on the Borg's ability to assimilate whatever they please without running into any difficulties whatsoever. And to adapt to whatever they please, which is much sillier. There has to be a limit- a Borg drone can't adapt to being crushed under a million tons of rock, or thrown into the Sun, or something like that. If they could adapt to such things, they would already be invincible in combat, because they've fought and killed enemies who tried all kinds of weapons on them.

For example, Borg drones have been stabbed before, I'm sure, in the process of industrial accidents and assimilating people who fought back. And yet they do not become invulnerable to stab wounds. There are limits to these things. Borg assimilation and adaptation is a skill, a powerful one, but it isn't magic. They don't adapt to everything that gets thrown at them, only some things, and usually 'special trick' things.

The deflector dish trick is an example of this. We don't know how it works, but it's reasonable to assume that it has a very specific attack profile, something that the Borg can build a counter for once they know how it works. I imagine the Federation could build a counter too, since they too know how it works.

Whereas we never see the Borg build drones that are immune to being stabbed, or cubes that can survive being hurled into the sun, because how would you even do that? It's not just some gimmick that you can come up with a cheap countermeasure for, like say wearing dark glasses to counter a weapon that uses blinding light.

Nothing we see of the Borg's performance suggests that they can adapt to things far beyond the envelope of what their normal technology makes possible.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:All right then Mr Genius useless hatfucker, explain the Voyager episode "Counterpart." In that episode, they use the transport buffers to hide telepaths from the local boss-dudes. Tuvok says this cannot be maintained for long periods. And that is with transporter tech 75 years more advanced than what Scotty had on hand. In fact, if we take La Forge's line about "transporter technology hasn't changed much in 75 years" at face value, which you love doing with dialogue, then its the same tech.

Also you have to consider that Scotty's trick on the Jenolen was, by his own admission a jury-rig. He did not know if it would work. He suddenly did not expect it to have to last 75 years. Quite frankly, he got lucky.
Tuvok's statement shouldn't be taken literally and generalized to include all of transporter theory. Scotty disproves this idea.

In episode "Realm of Fear" there were crew members whose patterns got stuck in the transporter beam for several days.
BARCLAY: There are more crew members in the beam. You have to grab them and hold on.
WORF: Understood. Follow me.
LAFORGE: Reg, what happened?
BARCLAY: Well, when I saw there was more than one of them, I thought maybe the other crew was trying the same thing that we were.
CREWMAN: We're infected with something. Lieutenant Kelly tried to reprogram the biofilter
LAFORGE: It looks like he pushed molecular dispersion past the integrity point. Your patterns got caught in the beam.
BARCLAY: The residual energy from the plasma streamer. It must've amplified the charge in the buffer enough to keep your patterns from degrading.
With transporter technology it's unknown how long someone can survive in suspended animation. If you were expecting me to explain how that is, I don't think any further explanation would work if you haven't gotten it by now.

Let's bring this nice little tangent into prospective now with the events that led up to it:

-I provided canon proof that stated that the transfer of knowledge between individual and borg is complete
-Eleas didn't think the transfer of knowledge from individuals to the collective is complete
-I provided canon proof that when someone becomes assimilated their neural patterns are transferred to the collective
-I provided canon proof with dialogue and visuals which support that neural patterns contain all knowledge of a person
-I mentioned that the neural patterns got stored in the computer of deep space nine in episode "our man bashir"
-I said that since neural patterns can be stored indefinitely like data.

The idea is that if data was stored and transferred here that it could also conceivably be transferred and stored from an individual to the collective. Then we went on and on about me having to justify that the patterns can be stored indefinitely even though it had nothing to do with the point I was making: that all knowledge can be transferred from the individual to the collective. You've no doubt chosen to accept a definition of indefinite to imply no limit whereas I was using the definition to mean an unknown or unclear limit. The fact that a person's complete knowledge can be stored on a computer in the first place is all the proof I needed to make the point I was trying to make. Whether or not someone's pattern can be stored for only minutes, days, years, or centuries is irreverent.
And yet that is precisely what he did with the World Devastators. You sir are a dishonest debator, and a moron to boot.
Oh does that prove he did it on the Death Star? He didn't do it on the sun crusher did he? We can't assume the backdoor exists just because you want it to be true. If it says in a technical manual that the death star has one fine but if it doesn't then too bad for you. I can't concede defeat for the borg based on non-facts. Even if a backdoor was put in, the borg could have removed it anyway.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

We can't assume the Borg can operate the DS2 without a logistics base just because you want it to either shithead.

So we can't take Tuvoks's statement at face value and generalise to all transporter tech? Funny, you've been taking dialogue statements at face value pretty much this whole thread.

You can't have it both ways genius.
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Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

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Since when is dialogue evidence of anything other than the character in question saying it anyway?
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'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eleas »

darthy wrote:It's common knowledge in star trek that neural patterns are what make up our consciousness. It's stated in voyager episode "warlord" that Tieran has been transferring his neural pattern for a couple hundred years.

The Ux-Mal criminals from the next generation episode "power play" transferred their consciousness into troi, obrian, and data. Doctor crusher said they did this by superimposed their neural patterns on them.

Vantika was able to transfer his consciousness by transmitting his neural pattern to bashir in episode "the passenger".

Here's a quote from voyager episode "infinite regress"
EMH: This is your neural pattern. The memory engrams and synaptic pathways that define you as an individual. Unfortunately, you're not alone. Thirteen new neural patterns have emerged in your cerebral cortex. Klingon, Vulcan, Terrelian, Human and several others I can't identify.
SEVEN: How?
EMH: They're coming from within you. During your time with the Borg, the Collective assimilated hundreds of different species. All of those neural patterns were integrated into the Hive Mind.
SEVEN: Of course.
EMH: That means they're in your mind too, stored within your cortical implants. Dormant until now.
The EMH tells you word for word what it is.
...but still, sadly, not that they represent the totality of what you are. Let's say that I took a sample of your skin cells. I would then have your DNA -- a code that, very often, is stated to define you as an individual. Does that mean I could, from this DNA, read your mind?
Perhaps it is implied, and I would honestly not be violently opposed to it. What I'm opposed to is the idea that this chaotic bundle of impulses can be perfectly analysed and flawlessly collated, when we know the Borg are dumb. It's not me here trying to act like an ass, but observation: the point of Scorpion (Voyager) as I recall it was exactly that Janeway could aid the Borg... with science. How? Well, it's obvious Voyager can't match the Borg for computing power or scientific data, and if we're talking implications, the obvious one is that the drive and innovation of the Federation is something the Borg lack.

They're not creative. And if they are to build a whole new infrastructure that is to be protected from harm, using personnel who are military end users rather than personnel within the same infrastructure, they'll need creativity and more.
If the borg were dumb then they wouldn't be able to assimilate thousands of worlds. 7 of 9 wouldn't have been regarded by harry kim as the most intelligent person alive. Judging by your statements all the evidence is there that you're wrong but you're in denial because of a personal bias against the borg. The borg were aided by the EMH doctor's knowledge. It was another artificial lifeform's work, not Janeway.
It's a sad thing when one tries to bend over backward, as I did, to be generous to an undeserving moron, which you demonstrably are.

I gave an example of the Borg being tactically uncreative. Other examples are not difficult to find. You counter by three points:
  1. A non sequitur, in which you claim the Borg wouldn't be able to defeat enemies if they were dumb. We could just as easily point to Malaria, whose ability to kill humans and spread itself is unmatched by any one human country. Thus, by your logic, Malaria would be your intellectual superior.
  2. An appeal to the authority of the perpetually lowest-ranked and most gullible (and often punished) officer in Star Trek, who for an encore also appears sexually maladjusted. This part of your defence not only rests on his infallibility, but on his opinion of a physically striking woman who walks around in a skin-tight suit and who has, more than once, appeared in his dreams.
  3. An ad hominem whose sole merit lies in being so clearly a case of projection. You have demonstrated no bias in my statements; you just very much want it to exist, because you can't yourself understand any other motivation. I simply point toward Janeway's own sales pitch, which managed to convince the Borg without even mentioning the Doctor. Well, that, and the little conversation in the episode you refer to which you, oh, failed to mention. What was it? Oh yes.
Scorpion, Part 1 wrote:JANEWAY: B'Elanna, it's clear from the Borg database that they know practically nothing about Species 8472.
TORRES: That's right. The Borg gain knowledge through assimilation. What they can't assimilate, they can't understand.
JANEWAY: But we don't assimilate. We investigate. And in this case it's given us an edge.
See, that remains a basic problem with your need to habitually lie and obfuscate. Sooner or later, you get found out. Of course, it's not the first clearly dishonest post you've made in this thread, and it's never been particularly difficult to spot, but I do wish you'd make a token attempt at honesty, or at least apologise for the numerous points you've dodged and inaccuracies you've spouted which you know occurred.

I also know, from this thread, that it's not likely to happen any time soon.
In all honesty, though, I think it would make the greatest amount of sense -- and be the most interesting, dramatically -- for the Borg to separate storage and indexing as concepts. Much like you don't remember all the sites on the Internet, the Borg might be working with a relative small matrix of well-ordered fact and then continually scan and process the rest from the sum total of their assimilated creatures. Perhaps they flag the stuff that representatives of high-order civilisations are emotionally invested in and give that priority. The rest will be there, but part of a vast dataspace that won't necessarily be easy to use until they get around to indexing it.

Following that analogy, say a random Corellian tramp freighter enters Borg space in a TIE and is assimilated. Some of the crew will most likely have been thinking stuff like "why didn't I pack bigger guns/faster engines" as they fought, so the Borg would find out about the existence of said technologies pretty much instantly, but that subjective impression wouldn't be very useful at all. Even knowing that you hook in a Novaldex (TM) module to a TurboBlix circuit to create a Three-Stage Laser (which is also a brand name) won't give them very much more than a hint as to which planetary system(s) they should order their parts from. It's the same with us today.
Using an analogy of building a computer from scratch, no single person knows how to do that. How to mine gold, plastic, iron, other raw materials; refining the metals and removing impurities from them, make the circuit boards, processors, computer memory, speakers, lights, electricity in general etc.. etc.. If the borg assimilated humanity, they would be able to tell you in detail step by step how to make a computer from scratch. Assimilation gives the Collective more knowledge about technology than any one scientist, engineer, or other person. If the borg assimilated enough of the empire, the empire would be at a significant disadvantage with the borg knowing more about their technology than even they do.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

...but still, sadly, not that they represent the totality of what you are. Let's say that I took a sample of your skin cells. I would then have your DNA -- a code that, very often, is stated to define you as an individual. Does that mean I could, from this DNA, read your mind?
I don't see how this is possible but according to enterprise episode "Similitude", doctor phlox was able to create Sim using only Trip's DNA. Sim apparently had all of Trips memories by the time he grew up. Maybe someone here can figure that one out.

It's a pretty easy conclusion to reach that someone's neural pattern represents their personal identity or it wouldn't say it on memory alpha.

I think I know where you're going with all this crap though. In reality we cannot have absolute certainty about anything, just reasonable certainty. Even if the borg assimilated all your knowledge, disconnected you from the collective, and asked you to ask them questions about you in order to prove that they know everything you know. They wouldn't be able to prove to you that they had all of your knowledge even if they answered all your questions correctly all day long. Maybe they don't know something you know but you can't think to ask them about it. Then I'm supposed to admit that maybe the process is not complete or admit that I can't prove that the process is complete.

First off it's called suspension of disbelief. Second off, even if it's not 100% complete but 99.999999999% complete, it doesn't make a significant difference to even mention it. At least provide some opposing canon evidence to the dialogue which states the transfer is complete.
I gave an example of the Borg being tactically uncreative.
Okay here's an example of the borg being creative from episode "scorpion part 2".
SEVEN: Seven of Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero One. But you may call me Seven of Nine. You are proposing a large-scale weapon. We concur.
JANEWAY: I thought you might.
TUVOK: We could encase the nanoprobes in some of our photon torpedoes. In essence, turn them into bio molecular warheads.
SEVEN: Your torpedoes are inadequate. They lack the necessary range and dispursive force.
JANEWAY: Do you have a better idea?
SEVEN: We are Borg.
TUVOK: I take that as a yes.
SEVEN: A multikinetic neutronic mine. Five million isoton yield.
TUVOK: An explosion that size could affect an entire star system.
SEVEN: Correct. The shock wave will disperse the nanoprobes over a radius of five light years.

This seemed creative enough to me. Or the strategy the queen used to locate the members of Unimatrix zero: Sending drones to unimiatrix zero and causing drones to end their regeneration cycle early then checking to see which drones ended their regeneration cycle early in the collective. Not bad, very creative.
Now fuck off until you grow a spine, you little worm.
Profanity how nice. This is what i get for humoring your tangents I suppose. Here :finger: :D
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:hmm, and you accuse me of not knowing how to read. Did you miss the part where I said that it's reasonable to assume that any degradation can be explained by mechanical failure of a crippled old ship that hasn't been maintained by anyone in 75 years? Since the amount of degradation was so much different between Franklin and Scotty, it looks like mechanical failure to me.
Because you're too stupid to consider that it was a jury-rigged idea, that had never been tested before. Even Scotty said he had no idea if it would actually work.
darthy wrote:So you conclude that it might be 1,350,000 assuming the degradation rate is a linear function. How do you know the it wasn't a exponential decay? It probably is an exponential decay since that's how degradation usually works.
I assumed a linear rate because I was being generous. Exponential degredation gives Scotty much less time. :lol: Do you think you're being clever by shooting your own argument in the foot?
darthy wrote:If we consider 54% degradation to be okay as you said then that means scotty could survive as long as his pattern is at 46% or higher.
Seriously, it's okay to admit you do have a reading and comprehension problem. I actually (mistakenly) gave 54% as the usable proportion, not as the level of degredation. Yes, that would give Scotty more time. Of course, it still doesn't really help your bullshit cry of "INDEFINITELYZ!!!11!!" 2 million years is a specific period of time.

But enough picking through that bullshit, let's examine some other bullshit you've claimed:
darthy wrote:I checked wiki, the new essential guide to weapons and technology, the complete sw encyclopedia, and dark empire II. When asked how the weapon worked in the comic they said: "this weapon can destroy a city... a land mass... or even an entire planet anywhere in the galaxy" Its missiles were meant to destroy planets and moons.
And? The Death Star was made for destroying planets. It works just fine against other targets. You hadn't tried to give a reason why it wouldn't work.
darthy wrote:It probably needs a planetary atmosphere to trigger its nuclear cloud reactions.
So close! Too bad so many planets and moons don't have atmospheres. Better luck next time.
darthy wrote:Since the death star can move, it's likely that this projectile would exit hyperspace far enough away where the death star to destroy it with their super laser or whatever else.
Really? With the superlaser? Against a small moving target? Keep in mind, probe droids can easily gather and update precise coordinates.
darthy wrote:Amazing how I'm usually the one that has to explain star trek and star wars canon to everyone huh?... The sun crusher was destroyed when it was sucked into one of the Maw's black holes during the Battle of the Maw Installation in 11 ABY. You should look this stuff up yourself instead of asking me all the time.
I know about the Battle of the Maw, dipshit. I didn't ask you to explain what actually happened in SW canon, I asked you to explain what happened in the alternate timeline you've made up. The Battle of the Maw wouldn't have occurred if the Imperials won the Battle of Endor.
darthy wrote:If there was no rebel victory at Endor the Empire probably found no need to waste resources to build a sun crusher and galaxy gun in the first place.
What were you saying about explaining canon? The Sun Crusher was built before the DS2, using spare funds from the DS1 construction. There is also no reason the Emperor wouldn't build the Galaxy Gun. It adresses the Death Star's inability to be everywhere at once.
darthy wrote:Well the unicomplex didn't get destroyed by voyager. It was destroyed by the future Janeway.
Who wouldn't have been able to do so if they'd assimilated her when they had the chance. Also note: The unicomplex was destroyed. The limits of Borg ability are defined by what they had at that time, because it was at that point that they were defeated. The Borg can't have assimilated the Think Tank to learn about neutronium unless they did so before then. No doubt you will say "maybe they did", as you say to everything else.
darthy wrote:Since I've pointed out one limit, then that means i'm not actually committing the no limits fallacy. It probably does have limits but I don't think those limits are at star wars tech.
You tried to state that technological development is limitless. Check it out:
darthy wrote:If technology has no limits as far as how far it can improve then the borg have no limits on how far they can improve either since the borg are a species of technology bent on improving their technology.
Was this statement meant to take up space without being of any consequence, or were you actually trying to prove a point? Remember that you made that statement to try and defend the no-limits fallacy you've continually trotted out.
darthy wrote:But you don't consider her a reliable source. 7 of 9 may be wrong plus she doesn't know if the borg ever managed to produce neutronium after she was liberated from the collective. The dominion, for example, know how to produce neutronium. It's possible the cardassians and breen learned how to do it later from the dominion themselves. The borg could have assimilated that knowledge or can in the future.
While it is "possible" (there you go again) that the Cardassians or Breen *may have* learned to do it, have the Borg ever met them? No. Have the Borg ever even met the Dominion? Also note: You say that the Borg Could do it in the future- When? After they were defeated by future Janeway?
darthy wrote:
You will now explain how the Borg will deal with a deployed Dovin Basal.
You must be assuming the super laser can't take them out when you say that...why?
:lol: Wait... :lol:
You're going to take out a fucking BLACK HOLE with a superlaser? :wtf: :lol: :wanker:
That's the best one I've heard so far.
darthy wrote:
If the New Republic never formed, the Sun Crusher and Galaxy Gun weren't destroyed.
necessity is the mother of invention. There's no reason to think these things would have been created if there was no rebellion to crush.
Too bad the Sun Crusher had already been built. :roll: And yes, there is every reason to think the GG would hae been built anyway. Tarkin Doctrine, anyone? All the better to oppress the Galaxy with, my dear.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Because you're too stupid to consider that it was a jury-rigged idea, that had never been tested before. Even Scotty said he had no idea if it would actually work.
That don't matter. That's like saying can warp 10 cannot be achieved because paris didn't know if it would work. The question is did scotty's plan actually work? yes. Would it have worked better had someone repaired and maintained its systems? Probably. This means that the any rate of degradation rate calculated from this won't be accurate when it comes to whether or not 0% degradation is possible. (and you were too stupid to consider that yourself)
I assumed a linear rate because I was being generous. Exponential degredation gives Scotty much less time. :lol: Do you think you're being clever by shooting your own argument in the foot?
there's a fundamental difference between exponential growth rate and exponential decay rate. You know that right?... right? nevermind, over your head.
Seriously, it's okay to admit you do have a reading and comprehension problem. I actually (mistakenly) gave 54% as the usable proportion, not as the level of degredation. Yes, that would give Scotty more time. Of course, it still doesn't really help your bullshit cry of "INDEFINITELYZ!!!11!!" 2 million years is a specific period of time.
2 million is a guess and a rounded number, how is that specific?. You said yourself that you don't know if it's linear, exponential. Scotty's pattern could have degraded 0.003 percent because of something the crew did after they beamed over for all we know.
And? The Death Star was made for destroying planets. It works just fine against other targets. You hadn't tried to give a reason why it wouldn't work.
the death star presumably isn't chain reaction based though. The comparison is flawed.
So close! Too bad so many planets and moons don't have atmospheres. Better luck next time.
and i'm sure that's what they had in mind when they claimed it could destroy planets.
Really? With the superlaser? Against a small moving target? Keep in mind, probe droids can easily gather and update precise coordinates.
tractor beam remember?
What were you saying about explaining canon? The Sun Crusher was built before the DS2, using spare funds from the DS1 construction. There is also no reason the Emperor wouldn't build the Galaxy Gun. It adresses the Death Star's inability to be everywhere at once.
yes it was built before the DS2. If we are talking about altered history sometime before the DS2's construction then that altered history sometime before the DS2's construction could have been before the Sun Crusher's construction as well.
Who wouldn't have been able to do so if they'd assimilated her when they had the chance
Doing something to the younger janeway has been demonstrated not to affect what the old Janeway does. Since young Janeway made it back to earth the events that led to her deciding to go back in time and bring voyager home never happened. If that's the case, how did the events still happen. Either they didn't happen and it all got erased or it was an alternate timeline and the borg wouldn't have been able to stop the old Janeway from coming to the unicomplex. Either way you're wrong though. I know I'm talking to myself here since you won't understand any of that.
You tried to state that technological development is limitless. Check it out:
I phrased it as a conditional statement. Doesn't count as a fallacy.
Was this statement meant to take up space without being of any consequence, or were you actually trying to prove a point? Remember that you made that statement to try and defend the no-limits fallacy you've continually trotted out.
Let's ask ourselves this. Is it possible to advance in technology to what star wars is at? Sure, how would star wars tech had gotten to where it is without gradual advancement. The borg would do the same thing except only faster by reverse engineering and assimilation of knowledge and technology.
While it is "possible" (there you go again) that the Cardassians or Breen *may have* learned to do it, have the Borg ever met them? No. Have the Borg ever even met the Dominion? Also note: You say that the Borg Could do it in the future- When? After they were defeated by future Janeway?
Let's look at what Riley said from episode "unity":
RILEY: Seven or eight years ago, I was working as a science officer on a vessel in the Bolian Sector. We were attacked without warning by aliens. They overpowered us in minutes and those of us who survived were put in some kind of stasis. The next thing we knew, we were here on this planet. It didn't take too many hours stargazing to realise we weren't in the Alpha Quadrant any longer.
CHAKOTAY: There are other humans here?
RILEY: Three that I know of, besides me. What was left of my crew, along with some Klingons, Cardassians, Orums and dozens of other species I'd never seen before.
The borg have at least met cardassians before. That makes you a liar.
:lol: Wait... :lol:
You're going to take out a fucking BLACK HOLE with a superlaser? :wtf: :lol: :wanker:
That's the best one I've heard so far.
A micro-blackhole actually. But I was refering to destroying the Dovin basal with the superlaser but sure the superlaser might be able to take on a micro black hole too.
Too bad the Sun Crusher had already been built. :roll: And yes, there is every reason to think the GG would hae been built anyway. Tarkin Doctrine, anyone? All the better to oppress the Galaxy with, my dear.
nope. since you insist on having an alernate timeline and inquire on its events that apparently lets me decide how the universe is. Historical events led to an early demise of the rebels shortly after the death star I's destruction. The sun crusher's construction was canceled, they continued construction of the death star II to silence any remaining opposition in the galaxy. (no galactic gun either sorry).
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:The question is did scotty's plan actually work? yes.
Really? His plan was to save himself and Franklin. In black and white terms, the answer is no. As he said himself, it wasn't good enough for Franklin.
darthy wrote:Would it have worked better had someone repaired and maintained its systems? Probably.
The plan accounted for noone being there to maintain it.
darthy wrote:there's a fundamental difference between exponential growth rate and exponential decay rate. You know that right?... right? nevermind, over your head.
No, really! Let me explain it to you, in the simplest possible terms...

In an exponential growth rate, things grow. Over time, the rate of their growth increases. Exponentially.

In an exponential decay rate, things decay. Over time, the rate of their decay increases. Exponentially.

What was your point?
darthy wrote:Doing something to the younger janeway has been demonstrated not to affect what the old Janeway does. Since young Janeway made it back to earth the events that led to her deciding to go back in time and bring voyager home never happened. If that's the case, how did the events still happen. Either they didn't happen and it all got erased
Which is already disproven by Grandfather Paradox not occurring.
darthy wrote:or it was an alternate timeline and the borg wouldn't have been able to stop the old Janeway from coming to the unicomplex.
Yes they could have. They could have assimilated her in the alternate timeline. When they had the chance. Which they chose not to. The Borg have a very bad track record for ignoring things which they don't consider threats, and then being beaten by them. Also note: In future Janeway's time, 16 years later, the Borg still hadn't beaten the Federation.
darthy wrote:The borg have at least met cardassians before.
My mistake. So you feel this proves that the Dominion gave the Cardassians the knowledge of how to produce neutronium, and that the Borg assimilated the right Cardassians to gain said information? Remember that you were trying to prove that the Borg have the capacity to make the stuff.
darthy wrote:...sure the superlaser might be able to take on a micro black hole too.
Wait, say that again? A superlaser can destroy a black hole? Seriously? :wtf:
darthy wrote:nope. since you insist on having an alernate timeline and inquire on its events that apparently lets me decide how the universe is. Historical events led to an early demise of the rebels shortly after the death star I's destruction. The sun crusher's construction was canceled, they continued construction of the death star II to silence any remaining opposition in the galaxy. (no galactic gun either sorry).
Okay, just so we're totally clear:

This scenario is an alternate universe, non-canon version of the Borg, who have already gained all the knowledge they reqire in order to adapt to and assimilate Imperial (and other SW) technology, versus an alternate universe, non-canon version of Star Wars, where the Empire does not have any of its superweapons besides the Death Star II, which has already been assumed to be in Borg hands?
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Really? His plan was to save himself and Franklin. In black and white terms, the answer is no. As he said himself, it wasn't good enough for Franklin.
The plan was to survive longer than what their supplies allowed. Yes it worked. It's not his fault help didn't come earlier.
The plan accounted for noone being there to maintain it.
Missed the point there. In order to prove that the decay rate was completey caused by time you need a control variable. Having a second ship precisely the same putting someone in suspended animation for 75 years under the same conditions except keep the systems from breaking down over time then being able to compare the two. Since there's more than one variable at work here no solid conclusions can be drawn from this method.
No, really! Let me explain it to you, in the simplest possible terms...

In an exponential growth rate, things grow. Over time, the rate of their growth increases. Exponentially.

In an exponential decay rate, things decay. Over time, the rate of their decay increases. Exponentially.

What was your point?
na you couldn't have understood that before or you wouldn't have tried to use it as a gotcha moment.
Yes they could have. They could have assimilated her in the alternate timeline. When they had the chance. Which they chose not to. The Borg have a very bad track record for ignoring things which they don't consider threats, and then being beaten by them. Also note: In future Janeway's time, 16 years later, the Borg still hadn't beaten the Federation.
you can't call one borg collective stupid because of something another borg collective did in an alternate timeline. That would be like calling prime version kirk stupid because the mirror mirror version of himself is stupid.
My mistake. So you feel this proves that the Dominion gave the Cardassians the knowledge of how to produce neutronium, and that the Borg assimilated the right Cardassians to gain said information? Remember that you were trying to prove that the Borg have the capacity to make the stuff.
The Vidiians have created neutronium artificially before too.
Wait, say that again? A superlaser can destroy a black hole? Seriously?
It might be able to. You must not be sure yourself since you keep saying "really? really? really?". http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dovin_basal says that:
They were capable of creating micro-black holes that could absorb laser shots at spacecraft, as well as almost anything else, from proton torpedoes to concussion missiles.
Since a super laser is way out of the league of proton torpedoes and concussion missles, I don't get any conclusions out of that statement about what a super laser would do. If the situations were reversed and I stated that this mini-black hole can absorb an unlimited amount of energy I wouldn't be taken seriously because of your no limit fallacy.
This scenario is an alternate universe, non-canon version of the Borg, who have already gained all the knowledge they reqire in order to adapt to and assimilate Imperial (and other SW) technology, versus an alternate universe, non-canon version of Star Wars, where the Empire does not have any of its superweapons besides the Death Star II, which has already been assumed to be in Borg hands?
Most of the properties of both are canon. There's no such thing as a completed death star II in star wars. I can't help that. I believe that the borg already have the knowledge to assimilate sw tech in canon but I've had to play within the fantasy of star wars fans who think the sw tech is far beyond star trek's. If I don't play with this fantasy then we'd be arguing about ICS and crap like that all day. No one wants that.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

Point conceded on exponential decay rates. I was quite tired, and fucked up. You may find here at SD.net that honest debaters are willing to concede when they are mistaken.

The larger point, which seems to have been almost completely abandoned, is your vehement claim that Scotty's pattern could have been preserved 'indefinitely'. Your claim is contentious because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If you have a valid explanation as to why it does not, feel free to offer it. Otherwise concede.
darthy wrote:you can't call one borg collective stupid because of something another borg collective did in an alternate timeline. That would be like calling prime version kirk stupid because the mirror mirror version of himself is stupid.
False analogy. I was calling both versions of the Collective stupid because they both made the exact same mistake.

Furthermore, if the Queen's hyperbole about being able to assimilate Voyager (but choosing not to) is true, explain why the Borg feigned so many attempts at doing so. You choose to believe the Queen's words when her actions contradict them. Explain or concede.
darthy wrote:Since a super laser is way out of the league of proton torpedoes and concussion missles, I don't get any conclusions out of that statement about what a super laser would do. If the situations were reversed and I stated that this mini-black hole can absorb an unlimited amount of energy I wouldn't be taken seriously because of your no limit fallacy.
The DS superlaser does not impart an unlimited amount of energy, so that would be a strawman (were I to say it).
In the event of a laser imparting more energy to a black hole than it can readily absorb, the excess energy is released as Hawking radiation. Read this if you would like some proof of my claim. You will now produce evidence to show that a black hole could be destroyed as you claim, or concede the point.
darthy wrote:Most of the properties of both are canon.
With the exception of any observed and proven weaknesses on the Borg's part, and the removal of any advantages the Empire canonically held that would give them an easy victory. A no would have sufficed. As has already been pointed out by SancheztheWhaler, this entire thread is a tacit admission that Star Wars can curbstomp Trek. Starting with "If we give the Borg a SW superweapon..."
darthy wrote:I believe that the borg already have the knowledge to assimilate sw tech in canon
Yet you fail to prove it is so. "They might have (insert necessary prerequisite here) is not canonical evidence, and is the first claim you make whenever challenged. Canonical evidence is things they were actually observed doing.
E.G. 1- The Borg did not assimilate the Viidians, the Dominion, or the Think Tank in canon, yet you continue to insist they 'might have done so' in order to give them an ability they are known not to possess.
E.G. 2- You claim the Borg would assimilate any attacking ships. Both the Battle of Wolf 359 (TNG:BOBW) and the fleet engagement over Earth (ST:FC) show that the Borg, when engaged in combat, destroy enemy ships rather than assimilating them.
darthy wrote:I've had to play within the fantasy of star wars fans who think the sw tech is far beyond star trek's.
Fantasy? Perhaps you should start a thread* explaining how this is not so. Or read the main page.
darthy wrote:If I don't play with this fantasy then we'd be arguing about ICS and crap like that all day.
The ICS are canon. Suck it up. Don't :cry: because you think it isn't fair. If you would like to dispute the numbers in the ICS, start a thread*.

* I suggest starting seperate threads because this one has become spammy enough already. As Metahive has repeatly pointed out, this thread was meant to be about how the Borg would fare, with the DS2 in hand. Which hasn't been discussed in much detail at all.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

The larger point, which seems to have been almost completely abandoned, is your vehement claim that Scotty's pattern could have been preserved 'indefinitely'. Your claim is contentious because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If you have a valid explanation as to why it does not, feel free to offer it. Otherwise concede.
That's an easy one. The second law applies to only closed systems. If the ship was being supplied with new parts, repair, and continuous energy supply then it would be considered an open system where the second law wouldn't apply. The second law does a good job of proving why scotty's pattern degraded without new parts, repair, and a continuous energy supply. Without energy being added to the ship from an external source the second law does apply with the case of scotty. I'll do the rest later when i've gotten enough sleep.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:
The larger point, which seems to have been almost completely abandoned, is your vehement claim that Scotty's pattern could have been preserved 'indefinitely'. Your claim is contentious because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If you have a valid explanation as to why it does not, feel free to offer it. Otherwise concede.
That's an easy one. The second law applies to only closed systems. If the ship was being supplied with new parts, repair, and continuous energy supply then it would be considered an open system where the second law wouldn't apply. The second law does a good job of proving why scotty's pattern degraded without new parts, repair, and a continuous energy supply. Without energy being added to the ship from an external source the second law does apply with the case of scotty. I'll do the rest later when i've gotten enough sleep.
Underlined the problem.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Darth Tedious wrote:
darthy wrote:
The larger point, which seems to have been almost completely abandoned, is your vehement claim that Scotty's pattern could have been preserved 'indefinitely'. Your claim is contentious because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If you have a valid explanation as to why it does not, feel free to offer it. Otherwise concede.
That's an easy one. The second law applies to only closed systems. If the ship was being supplied with new parts, repair, and continuous energy supply then it would be considered an open system where the second law wouldn't apply. The second law does a good job of proving why scotty's pattern degraded without new parts, repair, and a continuous energy supply. Without energy being added to the ship from an external source the second law does apply with the case of scotty. I'll do the rest later when i've gotten enough sleep.
Underlined the problem.
I underlined yours. Does it matter that I've already said that the claim of how long someone can survive inside a transporter buffer is irrelavent to the discussion? There's going to be nothing wrong with the statement you underlined. Maybe it's time you start accepting on faith that I will always debunk anything you ever say. I'll try to guess where you see the problem though. You'll say that the universe is a closed system so eventually in 10^100 years or so (something like that) all workable energy will be gone. Whether the universe is a closed system is debateable. Plus it also assumes that the laws of physics won't ever behave differently between now and then.

Or it could be something more straightforward like they don't have the parts to repair the ship. But you asked how long can it be done. So all things being equal, if the machinery does not break down and energy is always supplied then they can keep the signal from degrading. Next time just say what the problem is. Or if you see a pointless correction of an old irrelavent tangent then don't say what you think he problem is.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eleas »

darthy wrote:
...but still, sadly, not that they represent the totality of what you are. Let's say that I took a sample of your skin cells. I would then have your DNA -- a code that, very often, is stated to define you as an individual. Does that mean I could, from this DNA, read your mind?
I don't see how this is possible but according to enterprise episode "Similitude", doctor phlox was able to create Sim using only Trip's DNA. Sim apparently had all of Trips memories by the time he grew up. Maybe someone here can figure that one out.
Or maybe, now that you've presented yet another example of something other than a neural pattern containing the memories of a person, you'll finally stop undermining your own argument?
It's a pretty easy conclusion to reach that someone's neural pattern represents their personal identity or it wouldn't say it on memory alpha.
What's this debate fallacy, I wonder? Argumentum ad websitum? "It's on a web page, therefore it's true?"
I think I know where you're going with all this crap though. In reality we cannot have absolute certainty about anything, just reasonable certainty. Even if the borg assimilated all your knowledge, disconnected you from the collective, and asked you to ask them questions about you in order to prove that they know everything you know. They wouldn't be able to prove to you that they had all of your knowledge even if they answered all your questions correctly all day long. Maybe they don't know something you know but you can't think to ask them about it. Then I'm supposed to admit that maybe the process is not complete or admit that I can't prove that the process is complete.
If you want to claim omnipotence, a perfect process, or anything involving "they know everything", then yes, the onus is on you to prove it. This is grade-school logic at best.

First off it's called suspension of disbelief.
You suspend disbelief for the sake of plot, not for the sake of winning arguments.
Second off, even if it's not 100% complete but 99.999999999% complete, it doesn't make a significant difference to even mention it. At least provide some opposing canon evidence to the dialogue which states the transfer is complete.
I did. Scorpion, part I clearly shows that something is lost.


I gave an example of the Borg being tactically uncreative.
<snip tangent>
Irrelevant, because the selective quote you just performed was not the actual point of my statement. My statement was that I had already given you the evidence, and you countered with an ad hominem, a non sequitur, and an appeal to authority, from which you concluded that I was biased for not accepting your word absent actual evidence.

Again, let me quote my summary of your problem in a nutshell:
Eleas wrote:See, that remains a basic problem with your need to habitually lie and obfuscate. Sooner or later, you get found out. Of course, it's not the first clearly dishonest post you've made in this thread, and it's never been particularly difficult to spot, but I do wish you'd make a token attempt at honesty, or at least apologise for the numerous points you've dodged and inaccuracies you've spouted which you know occurred.

I also know, from this thread, that it's not likely to happen any time soon.
My patience isn't infinite, child.
Now fuck off until you grow a spine, you little worm.
Profanity how nice. This is what i get for humoring your tangents I suppose. Here :finger: :D
Aww. How precious, it's attempting sarcasm. It would have been more effective if it wasn't (as can easily be seen by anyone reading the thread) you yourself who continually obfuscates by, yes, wandering off on tangents and ignoring what people actually say in favour of irrelevancy.

Again, I recommend you grow a spine. It's nice, and as a bonus it may eventually net you some respect from human beings.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:Does it matter that I've already said that the claim of how long someone can survive inside a transporter buffer is irrelavent to the discussion?
No it doesn't. You have tried to dismiss anything you are proven wrong about as irrelevant. Concede the point, or prove it wrong.
darthy wrote:There's going to be nothing wrong with the statement you underlined.
You tried to claim that a closed system was exempt from the 2nd Law of TD by ignoring the fact that it was a closed system.
darthy wrote:I'll try to guess where you see the problem though. You'll say that the universe is a closed system so eventually in 10^100 years or so (something like that) all workable energy will be gone. Whether the universe is a closed system is debateable.
Again you assume an argument on my part. No. That's not what I would say.
darthy wrote:Plus it also assumes that the laws of physics won't ever behave differently between now and then.
You are actually resorting to saying that the laws of physics are possibly going to change to try and debunk an argument I haven't even made? :lol: :wanker: :wtf:
darthy wrote:Or it could be something more straightforward like they don't have the parts to repair the ship.
Who? The repairmen who weren't there? There was noone there to repair the ship. Without repairs, machinery will eventually break down. 2nd Law of TD. Or would you like to argue that the laws of physics will change in your favour in the meantime?
darthy wrote:So all things being equal, if the machinery does not break down and energy is always supplied then they can keep the signal from degrading.
All things being equal? Very reasoned explanation. There was no external power source.
darthy wrote:Next time just say what the problem is.
Obviously it has to be spelled out for you.
It was a closed system. There were no spare parts being fitted, no repairs being made, and no constant external power supply.
Second Law of Thermodynamics will apply.
darthy wrote:Or if you see a pointless correction of an old irrelavent tangent then don't say what you think he problem is.
If it was so irrelevant, it shouldn't hurt your pride too much to admit that you are talking shit.

I'll give you one more try:

Explain why the system in question was exempt from the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Not how "it could have been, if [insert non-existant prerequisite condition]."

Back up your claim. Or concede.
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Darth Tedious
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

Eleas wrote:
darthy wrote:It's a pretty easy conclusion to reach that someone's neural pattern represents their personal identity or it wouldn't say it on memory alpha.
What's this debate fallacy, I wonder? Argumentum ad websitum? "It's on a web page, therefore it's true?"
Check out what he's actually referring to:
Memory Alpha wrote:Since memories, thought patterns, and aspects of personality are encoded in this pattern, it is often considered to represent a person's consciousness.
It says it's 'often considered to represent' it. That's not even a definitive statement. From a fan-written source.
Spoiler
Let's assume for argument's sake that Memory Alpha is 100% accurate: It clearly states that 'aspects of personality are encoded in this pattern'. Why would it only say 'aspects' if it was complete? Surely complete would be a better choice of word. Sad to have to rely on a source of evidence that contradicts what you're saying.
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
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Eternal_Freedom
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

darthy wrote: Maybe it's time you start accepting on faith that I will always debunk anything you ever say.
What in Valen's name is this guy smoking? He's even providing no-limits fallacies for his own debating skills!

And then asks us to accept this on faith!

Well, as Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof:

Darthy, I now demand you to show proof for your "always debunk everything [we] say" claim, by debunking my claim that Barack Obama is the elected and sworn-in President of the United States of America..
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

The larger point, which seems to have been almost completely abandoned, is your vehement claim that Scotty's pattern could have been preserved 'indefinitely'. Your claim is contentious because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If you have a valid explanation as to why it does not, feel free to offer it. Otherwise concede.
I didn't see that strawman argument with you arguing something new. I didn't claim that scotty's transporter pattern could be stored forever in episode "relics".

Here is the claim I made:
Without having a lengthy philosophical discussion, we are our brains. Our knowledge and everything else is contained within our brain. Our neural patterns are what make up our brain. This is how they are able to put someone in a transporter buffer (TNG "relics") or other storage device indefinitely and bring them back again later. If it wasn't a complete transfer they wouldn't be able to do that.
here is the claim you're trying to say I'm making
Without having a lengthy philosophical discussion, we are our brains. Our knowledge and everything else is contained within our brain. Our neural patterns are what make up our brain. This is how they are able to put someone in a transporter buffer or other storage device indefinitely (TNG "relics") and bring them back again later. If it wasn't a complete transfer they wouldn't be able to do that.
I agree that scotty's pattern wouldn't have lasted forever from the situation in episode "relics" but that's not what I was claiming.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Darthy wrote:This is how they are able to put someone in a transporter buffer (TNG "relics") or other storage device indefinitely and bring them back again later.
Darthy wrote:I agree that scotty's pattern wouldn't have lasted forever from the situation in episode "relics" but that's not what I was claiming.
Thats EXACTLY what you were claiming. Stop lying darthy.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
Darthy wrote:This is how they are able to put someone in a transporter buffer (TNG "relics") or other storage device indefinitely and bring them back again later.
Darthy wrote:I agree that scotty's pattern wouldn't have lasted forever from the situation in episode "relics" but that's not what I was claiming.
Thats EXACTLY what you were claiming. Stop lying darthy.
Nope, I was using episode relics as an example of someone being stored in a transporter. That's why I mentioned the episode right after that part and not after the word "indefinitely". Feel free to take the "indefinitely" as an opinion as it contributes nothing to the argument of whether knowledge is completely transfered to the borg.
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