Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

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Big Phil
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Big Phil »

darthy wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm not sure what the issue is here.

You could give a retarded three year old the Death Star II and they would wreak havoc with it - the same is true of the Borg. Eventually, they'll be defeated, but it'll probably cost a few planets and many lives.

In any case, this entire thread is darthy's tacit admission that Wars womps Trek, regardless of what he might say in his necroing of other threads.
The death star was constructed to destroy any remaining opposition in the galaxy. Assuming it does what it was designed to do, I think this one's a win for the borg. You said eventually they'll be defeated but how? The main arguments i've heard was to put your fingers in your ears and hum "this can't happen" then try to turn it into a borg vs death star II instead. I think this kind of avoidance of the issue at hand shows that they know the borg would win in a situation like this. Hardcore sw fans tend to have a superiority complex when it comes to sw vs st stuff. They believe that it's impossible for st to win regardless of the situation. That's the way it appears to me anyway. :?
Quit pulling bullshit out of your ass, cockgoblin. The Death Star was not "constructed to destroy any remaining opposition in the galaxy." It is a space station; a massive, mobile, deadly space station, but it's not an automatic win no matter who has it. The Empire has any number of potential routes to eliminate the Death Star:

* Direct assault - it would cost lots and lots of ships, but at some point the shields will go down and the Death Star will be destroyed
* Special Ops - commando team infiltrates the Death Star, plants a bomb, and blows up the reactor. Boom, no more Death Star
* Pinpoint strike - to use your logic against you, just because we aren't aware of DS2 having a fatal handicap doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Therefore, it must have one, it will be found, and the Empire will successfully attack it and win.
* Superweapon vs. superweapon - The Empire could simply use another superweapon in the Wars galaxy and destroy the Death Star.

As for the rest of your assertion, that somehow the Borg will win because of magical assimilation, you're being annoying. The Borg don't have magical assimilation, have never been proven to be able to assimilate technology tens of thousands of years more advanced than their own, you've provided no evidence for their being able to do so, and you're just being obnoxious about it. Your latest "the borg then takes over the ship" is just fanboy stupidity. :banghead:
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:
Your unsupported claim. That 'maybe it exists'. With absolutely no supporting evidence.
There's supporting evidence that data can make modifications to himself like being able to activate his dream program at night
That wasn't a modification that Data made. It was an OEM feature installed by Dr. Soong when he built Data. Have you even seen TNG:'Birthright'?
darthy wrote:or making himself a floation device in the event of a water landing.
Another OEM feature.
darthy wrote:If we move away from the tv shows,
Into non-canonical sources...
darthy wrote:in st novel Imzadi it says data had his deactivation switch disabled.
Which he wouldn't have to do if it had a defence mechanism.
darthy wrote:In voyager episode "eye of the needle" we see this kind of thing has been thought of with the EMH.
Which has exactly how much to do with Data?
darthy wrote:Data could have had changed his deactivation switch before first contact. Maybe after the episode "the game". That's what I would do if I were him.
More speculation. Great.
darthy wrote:This is supporting evidence that it's theoretically possible that data did this.
No. You haven't even proven that it's theorically possible yet. Keep trying though, this is funny stuff!
darthy wrote:So now it's a supported claim that maybe he did. Riggght?...
No. It's still an arsepulled claim with nothing to back it up. Is 'maybe' the best you can do?
darthy wrote:Putting this into perspective, you only mentioned this point because it was said that if the borg had complete knowledge of data from assimilating picard then the borg would have tried to turn data off while in combat with him.
I never claimed complete knowledge. But they certainly would have stored a useful piece of information like that.
darthy wrote:Since it's already established that this was a small collective, it doesn't prove anything either way as far as knowledge transfers go.
What happened to your claim (supported by 7 of 9's statement) that all drones retain all useful knowledge?
darthy wrote:It's not relavent anymore whether data his off switch disabled.
Because it got in the way of your no-limits fallacy and you don't want to concede the point.
darthy wrote:Plus data's dead now anyway.
And this makes what difference?
darthy wrote:
So it was worthless speculation.
it was alternative explanations to explain why the borg didn't try to turn it off.
Because you needed to invent things to try and defend your no-limits fallacy.
darthy wrote:
You may want to specify a time period for your scenario.
okay, a time period after the sun crusher was destroyed.
Oh cool! Vong Wars, anyone? :mrgreen: Do you understand what 'specify' means? Also note: No Rebellion, no New Republic, the Sun Crusher doesn't get destroyed. Having the Empire win the Battle of Endor changes a few things. They don't work in your favour.
darthy wrote:Pulling out the sun crusher every time a sw fan feels intimidated gets old. Been there done that.
It was only my third suggestion, and made for shits and giggles. But here, try this:
darthy wrote:Pulling out the sun crusher no-limits fallacy every time a sw st fan feels intimidated like having a wank gets old. Been there done that.
Made some corrections for you.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm not sure what the issue is here.

You could give a retarded three year old the Death Star II and they would wreak havoc with it - the same is true of the Borg. Eventually, they'll be defeated, but it'll probably cost a few planets and many lives.
Apparently he actually thought that he was creating a no-win scenario.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:In any case, this entire thread is darthy's tacit admission that Wars womps Trek, regardless of what he might say in his necroing of other threads.
Quite true. This is, essentially, a SW vs SW debate.

EDIT: Added note about alternate timeline. And a faulty quote.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
darthy wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm not sure what the issue is here.

You could give a retarded three year old the Death Star II and they would wreak havoc with it - the same is true of the Borg. Eventually, they'll be defeated, but it'll probably cost a few planets and many lives.

In any case, this entire thread is darthy's tacit admission that Wars womps Trek, regardless of what he might say in his necroing of other threads.
The death star was constructed to destroy any remaining opposition in the galaxy. Assuming it does what it was designed to do, I think this one's a win for the borg. You said eventually they'll be defeated but how? The main arguments i've heard was to put your fingers in your ears and hum "this can't happen" then try to turn it into a borg vs death star II instead. I think this kind of avoidance of the issue at hand shows that they know the borg would win in a situation like this. Hardcore sw fans tend to have a superiority complex when it comes to sw vs st stuff. They believe that it's impossible for st to win regardless of the situation. That's the way it appears to me anyway. :?
Quit pulling bullshit out of your ass, cockgoblin. The Death Star was not "constructed to destroy any remaining opposition in the galaxy." It is a space station; a massive, mobile, deadly space station, but it's not an automatic win no matter who has it. The Empire has any number of potential routes to eliminate the Death Star:

* Direct assault - it would cost lots and lots of ships, but at some point the shields will go down and the Death Star will be destroyed
* Special Ops - commando team infiltrates the Death Star, plants a bomb, and blows up the reactor. Boom, no more Death Star
* Pinpoint strike - to use your logic against you, just because we aren't aware of DS2 having a fatal handicap doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Therefore, it must have one, it will be found, and the Empire will successfully attack it and win.
* Superweapon vs. superweapon - The Empire could simply use another superweapon in the Wars galaxy and destroy the Death Star.

As for the rest of your assertion, that somehow the Borg will win because of magical assimilation, you're being annoying. The Borg don't have magical assimilation, have never been proven to be able to assimilate technology tens of thousands of years more advanced than their own, you've provided no evidence for their being able to do so, and you're just being obnoxious about it. Your latest "the borg then takes over the ship" is just fanboy stupidity. :banghead:

it says in the star wars encyclopedia that: "It was envisioned as the ultimate weapon, the decisive force that, once and for all, would quiet any remaining opposition in the galaxy"
* Pinpoint strike - to use your logic against you, just because we aren't aware of DS2 having a fatal handicap doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Therefore, it must have one, it will be found, and the Empire will successfully attack it and win.
and to use your logic against you, just because it doesn't mean it doesn't have one doean't mean it does have one.

* Superweapon vs. superweapon - The Empire could simply use another superweapon in the Wars galaxy and destroy the Death Star.
would take years to build another, numbers game remember? The borg would learn of this death star and either stop it before it was finished being constructed or wait for them to almost finish it so they'll have 2 death stars.
As for the rest of your assertion, that somehow the Borg will win because of magical assimilation, you're being annoying. The Borg don't have magical assimilation, have never been proven to be able to assimilate technology tens of thousands of years more advanced than their own, you've provided no evidence for their being able to do so, and you're just being obnoxious about it. Your latest "the borg then takes over the ship" is just fanboy stupidity. :banghead:
It's the borg's goal to assimilate into their collective. If it weren't possible for them to assimilate technology then why haven't they've given up on trying to achieve perfection? I take it as a given that the collective would adapt itself to assimilate sw tech. In this situation it's assumed they can or the death star wouldn't have been assimilated already.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:it says in the star wars encyclopedia that: "It was envisioned as the ultimate weapon, the decisive force that, once and for all, would quiet any remaining opposition in the galaxy"
Quieting the Rebellion and taking on the Empire are two very different things. Your assumption of 'DS = instawin' seems to overlook this.
darthy wrote:would take years to build another, numbers game remember? The borg would learn of this death star and either stop it before it was finished being constructed or wait for them to almost finish it so they'll have 2 death stars.
What about all the other superweapons lying around? Galaxy Gun. Problem solved.
Oh, wait. I said that a long time ago...

You're still yet to address the options of 'direct assault' or 'special ops' from Sanchez' post.
darthy wrote:I take it as a given that the collective would adapt itself to assimilate sw tech.
Because you say so.
darthy wrote:In this situation it's assumed they can or the death star wouldn't have been assimilated already.
Because the only way you felt they had any kind of chance in the GFFA was to give them Star Wars tech without having to explain how they did it. So far divine intervention is the most plausible suggestion anyone has put forward.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Big Phil »

Darthy, as long as your arguments remain at a 6th grade level, you're going to continue to be treated like a child.

Here's your argument in another context: the German Heer was intended to defeat all of Nazi Germany's enemies and defend a thousand year Reich. Therefore Germany won the Second World War.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

That wasn't a modification that Data made. It was an OEM feature installed by Dr. Soong when he built Data. Have you even seen TNG:'Birthright'?
the ability to dream was put there by Soong once data reached a certain level of development. Data modified himself so he can dream at will though.
Another OEM feature.
it doesn't make sense if Soong designed that into him since:

TNG "Descent part 2":
LAFORGE: You know, Data, I've been thinking about some of the times we've had. Like that time we went sailing on Devala Lake. You remember that?
DATA: I have a complete memory record of that day.
LAFORGE: You decided to go swimming, and when you jumped out of the boat you sank straight to the bottom.
DATA: I did not have enough buoyancy to get back to the surface.
LAFORGE: You had to walk over a kilometre along the bottom to get back to shore.

DATA: One kilometre forty six metres.
LAFORGE: It took almost two weeks to get the water out of your servos.
Which has exactly how much to do with Data?
The EMH is an artificial lifeform like data. Janeway conceived of that the EMH can put protection on the EMH being shut down against his will. It's a similiar situation showing that this option is conceivable.
More speculation. Great.
Speculation like speculating the borg didn't assimilate all of picards knowledge just because some drones didn't go for his off switch?
No. You haven't even proven that it's theorically possible yet. Keep trying though, this is funny stuff!
It's self evident that its theoretically possible. To say that it's not theoretically possible would make it impossible. This makes it an unsupported claim on your part and shifts the burden of proof to you. You would then have to supply proof that data (or anyone else) cannot make the necessary modifications to disable his off switch.
No. It's still an arsepulled claim with nothing to back it up. Is 'maybe' the best you can do?
yes it falls into the category of maybe since they don't say whether he definitely has it or definitely does not have it.

You said I made an unsupported claim. A claim is: to assert or maintain as a fact. I never said it was fact that it was disabled when i say "maybe it was disabled at that point and picard knew it". When you say maybe, you're actually making the point that it's not a fact. I think you must realize this and are trying to back peddling.
What happened to your claim (supported by 7 of 9's statement) that all drones retain all useful knowledge?
the borg in the movie first contact were not connected to the Collective so they didn't have access to the knowledge of the entire collective. That makes the whole data off switch thing a moot point either way.
Because it got in the way of your no-limits fallacy and you don't want to concede the point.
data's off switch was being used as proof that the borg didn't have all of picards knowledge. Even if data had an off switch, this wouldn't prove that the Collective didn't possess all of picards knowledge. That's why I say it doesn't matter. Understand now?
And this makes what difference?
even if we continued the discussion of data's off switch about whether he had it during first contact, there would be no point since knowing whether he still had the off switch or not would not add anything to our lives with him being dead and all.
Because you needed to invent things to try and defend your no-limits fallacy.
If we assumed that the borg collective were connected to the Collective, you would have to be able to prove that other explanations would not account for why the borg didn't go for his off switch.
Oh cool! Vong Wars, anyone? :mrgreen: Do you understand what 'specify' means? Also note: No Rebellion, no New Republic, the Sun Crusher doesn't get destroyed. Having the Empire win the Battle of Endor changes a few things. They don't work in your favour.
yeah but you said "time period" too. Specifically... a time period after the sun crusher doesn't exist.
It was only my third suggestion, and made for shits and giggles. But here, try this:
You put a no limits fallacy on star wars tech though when it's claimed that nothing the borg use or adapt to use can assimilate durasteel. If technology has no limits as far as how far it can improve then the borg have no limits on how far they can improve either since the borg are a species of technology bent on improving their technology.

Let's also remember that it's a fallacy to assume that a conclusion is wrong just because it's a fallacy (Argumentum ad Logicam). The existence of what you call a no-limits fallacy does not make it a law that an unlimitless property cannot exist like Q's age or Q's powers.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Quieting the Rebellion and taking on the Empire are two very different things. Your assumption of 'DS = instawin' seems to overlook this.
the rest of the galaxy includes more than just the rebellion. Quieting an opposition means victory.
What about all the other superweapons lying around? Galaxy Gun. Problem solved.
Oh, wait. I said that a long time ago...
If you said it, I didn't notice. A particle disintegrator warhead is a chain reaction weapon, this has the flaw of lacking brute strength like what the death star has. It would be useful against a planet like maybe one of the many the borg would assimilate but would not change the outcome I don't think.
You're still yet to address the options of 'direct assault' or 'special ops' from Sanchez' post.
The main reactor would be too well protected by the borg for them to sneak past the death star and borg defenses. A direct assault is what is needed but any failed attempts would strengthen the borg's hand giving them more technology, drones, resources.
Because you say so.
The borg say so too.
Because the only way you felt they had any kind of chance in the GFFA was to give them Star Wars tech without having to explain how they did it. So far divine intervention is the most plausible suggestion anyone has put forward.
If the borg can't assimilate sw tech, it stands to reason that the knowledge to do it exists or can be discovered (maybe the think tank can do it for them if properly motivated). They can then acquire that knowledge and then create this type of a scenario. It's not so much how realistic the scenario is either just that it exists here now and determine how well each side performs and who wins.
Darthy, as long as your arguments remain at a 6th grade level, you're going to continue to be treated like a child.

Here's your argument in another context: the German Heer was intended to defeat all of Nazi Germany's enemies and defend a thousand year Reich. Therefore Germany won the Second World War.
better than the 2rd grade "that's not fair!" stuff i'm seeing so far. Not sure what to say to that except life isn't always fair. The borg have the death star via assimilation, that's all there is to it.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eleas »

A random Memory Alpha link constitutes no proof; it has no canonicity whatsoever. No proof = admission of defeat. Thank you for almost playing.
Proof that this was solely what was transferred during that incident 'just so we're clear'?
EDDINGTON: I've found them. All five of their physical patterns are in here and they're stable.
ODO: Why here?
EDDINGTON: The holosuite is specifically designed to store highly complex energy patterns. The computer's processing their physical patterns as if they were holosuite characters. Trouble is, I'm not reading any neural energy.
ROM: Neural energy has to be stored at the quantum level. The holosuite can't handle that.
ODO: So if their physical bodies are stored here, where are their brain patterns?
QUARK: Everywhere else. Their brain patterns are so large that they're taking up every bit of computer memory on the station. Replicator memory, weapons, life supports.

...

EDDINGTON: From what we can tell, Quark was right. The computer has stored the neural energy patterns of everyone on the runabout throughout the entire station.
QUARK: Don't everyone thank me at once.
ROM: What we need to do is re-integrate their neural patterns with their physical patterns from the holosuite and rematerialise them.
Thank you. We see here that there is "neural energy" and a physical pattern, and that both are necessary. Therefore, there's no evidence of what you claim, i.e. that the neural energy contains the totality of what makes up that person's mind. Brain structure (such as long-term memory, proclivities and habits) are realistically a physical matter, and there's nothing to contradict that in the canon.

We knew that already, of course, but it's nice of you to destroy your own argument.
Thank you. Case closed, then, since all that I needed to show was that you were wrong; the Borg don't keep all information -- which was obvious already, of course -- as you earlier asserted. It's quite possible that they only consider information that they can comprehend or that is an extension of the current Borg tech (which would jive with Federation future-tech, as that stuff isn't so far beyond current Borg tech as to be magical) to be "useful."
na, case re-opened, if they can't comprehend certain information they would still classify it as something that could be considered useful in the future.
No proof = admission of defeat.

Which is a complete red herring as well, and no more useful than trying to create microchips by having ants build them.

Oh? "Any" repairs? Proof, once again, of this insanely optimistic speculation?
isn't it optimistic that the borg would have need of repairs that are absolutely necessary in order to win?
Not when you've idiotically claimed that they will be able to achieve things simply because they need to, again without any proof whatsoever.
Since you haven't provided proof that such repairs exist yourself. We are talking about maintaining the repairs of station in a long term situation by which time would have already lost countless battles with the death star and gotten more of their ships and army assimilated that the borg wouldn't need the death star by the time the battles were over.
No proof = admission of defeat.


Kid, go back to pre-school and learn the simple logical principle of 'first evidence, then conclusion'. You'd look less of an idiot. I myself prefer Star Wars to Warhammer 40K, for instance, but that doesn't mean I don't see that a Space Marine Terminator would make mincemeat of any number of Stormtroopers and not even break a sweat at taking on a squadron of AT-STs. That's the difference between being rational or just a screaming fanboy.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:If you said it, I didn't notice.
If I said it? It's right there on page 2. Try to pay attention next time instead of accusing me of lying. :wink:
darthy wrote:A particle disintegrator warhead is a chain reaction weapon, this has the flaw of lacking brute strength like what the death star has.
Flaw? Being a more efficient weapon is a flaw now? :wtf:
darthy wrote: It would be useful against a planet like maybe one of the many the borg would assimilate but would not change the outcome I don't think.
Explain why it wouldn't work against the Death Star. Or was the double negative you used indicative that you think it would change the outcome?
darthy wrote:
Because you say so.
The borg say so too.
And yet they repeatedly fail to assimilate S8472, the Federation, or even Voyager. :roll: Have you considered the possibility that they talk shit?
darthy wrote:If the borg can't assimilate sw tech, it stands to reason that the knowledge to do it exists or can be discovered (maybe the think tank can do it for them if properly motivated). They can then acquire that knowledge and then create this type of a scenario. It's not so much how realistic the scenario is either just that it exists here now and determine how well each side performs and who wins.
Oh. I get it now. What you were actually asking in the OP was:
"If we gave the Borg enough technological upgrades and prerequisite knowledge, could they conquer the GFFA?"

The answer would be- most likely. What was this meant to prove?

It's analogous to asking:
"If I did enough martial arts training and working out, could I beat Chuck Norris in a fight?"
If you did enough training to beat him, of course you should be able to.
That doesn't mean you can beat him right now.

Sorry. I thought we were actually talking about the Borg from Star Trek, not the Borg from your imagination.

EDIT: Oh, and Star Wars aren't allowed to have the Sun Crusher either, because :cry: it :cry: wouldn't :cry: be :cry: fair. Life isn't fair, darthy. Get over it.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

darthy wrote:This is how they are able to put someone in a transporter buffer (TNG "relics") or other storage device indefinitely and bring them back again later. If it wasn't a complete transfer they wouldn't be able to do that.
Just because I feel like being picky and showing you're a dishonest wanker:

They can't put someone in storage indefinitely. If you actually watched the episode you would know that two people went into that transport buffer, but only one could be removed, as the second pattern had:

"The second pattern has degraded 53%. He's gone."

Yeah, indefinitely. Sure. Wank on, trektard. :wanker: :banghead: :finger:
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

A random Memory Alpha link constitutes no proof; it has no canonicity whatsoever. No proof = admission of defeat. Thank you for almost playing.
Here's some evidence

In deep space nine episode "the passenger" vantika transfered his consciousness to bashir by transferring his neural patterns to him:
SISKO: You're suggesting stored his consciousness in that thing?
DAX: His neural patterns encoded as bioelectrical pulses. He could have placed that device under his nail months ago, just in case he needed an escape route in an emergency. His last resort before death.
A similar thing happened when Tieran transferred his consciousness to Kes in episode "warlord"
EMH: I've identified the transfer mechanism. This cortical implant was automatically activated at the moment of death. It enhanced Tieran's neural pattern and sent it out along the peripheral nerves. The actual transfer took place through these bio-electric microfibres. When they came into direct contact with Kes they transmitted Tieran's pattern up through her nervous system and into her brain.
Plus we see visual evidence of them appearing to have a new consciousness so this is more than just dialogue.
Thank you. We see here that there is "neural energy" and a physical pattern, and that both are necessary. Therefore, there's no evidence of what you claim, i.e. that the neural energy contains the totality of what makes up that person's mind. Brain structure (such as long-term memory, proclivities and habits) are realistically a physical matter, and there's nothing to contradict that in the canon.

We knew that already, of course, but it's nice of you to destroy your own argument.
I aim to please but don't thank me yet. There's nothing in canon to confirm that either. Just because the brain is a physical object doesn't mean every detail of it is considered part of the physical pattern on the holosuite.
EDDINGTON: The holosuite is specifically designed to store highly complex energy patterns. The computer's processing their physical patterns as if they were holosuite characters. Trouble is, I'm not reading any neural energy.
ROM: Neural energy has to be stored at the quantum level. The holosuite can't handle that.
ODO: So if their physical bodies are stored here, where are their brain patterns?
QUARK: Everywhere else. Their brain patterns are so large that they're taking up every bit of computer memory on the station. Replicator memory, weapons, life supports.
The Holosuite stored enough of their physical pattern so that their appearance can be shown as holosuite characters but their brain patterns or neural patterns as they called them were stored everywhere else. If what you say is true then you're making it sound like the holosuite is what is storing all of their knowledge, consciousness, long term memories, etc.. Even if I give in and say that neural energy is what is needed to transfer a person's consciousness, I'd still say that the neural patterns contain all of a person's knowledge. This is what is implied in countless episodes.
No proof = admission of defeat.
here's some

voyager episode "omega"
JANEWAY: I guess I will. I'm curious. When did the Borg discover Omega?
SEVEN: Two hundred twenty nine years ago.
JANEWAY: Assimilation?
SEVEN: Yes, of thirteen different species.
JANEWAY: Thirteen.
SEVEN: It began with Species two six two. They were primitive, but their oral history referred to a powerful substance which could burn the sky. The Borg were intrigued, which led them to Species two six three. They, too, were primitive, and believed it was a drop of blood from their Creator.
Seven has knowledge of how the borg first discovered omega. The knowledge seems useless, oral history of burning sky stories. It's certainly not knowledge of how to create an omega particle or have any usefulness in that regard. The borg found it to be potentially useful in the future so they saved it. It's either that or maybe seven of nine was wrong and the borg store all of someone's knowledge. I'm assuming the collective at least has access to someone else's knowledge as long as the drone is still alive and hooked up to the collective too.
If I said it? It's right there on page 2. Try to pay attention next time instead of accusing me of lying.
If I were accusing you of lying I would have said that you didn't say it. You need to work on your lingual skills a bit.
Flaw? Being a more efficient weapon is a flaw now?
the death star's super laser isn't considered chain reaction based by most star wars fans. That means that the death stars weapon outputs more power than the galaxy gun. It's kinda like the idea of a phaser on star trek. Star wars fans believe that a phaser is not a directed energy weapon and it can only vaporize material because of a chain reaction. Then its argued that star wars hand weapons are more powerful even if they can't vaporize people and material. The galaxy gun's chain reaction weapon wasn't designed to destroy the death star.
Explain why it wouldn't work against the Death Star. Or was the double negative you used indicative that you think it would change the outcome?
the death star's shields plus the death star isn't a planet. That weapon was designed to work against a planet.
And yet they repeatedly fail to assimilate S8472, the Federation, or even Voyager. :roll: Have you considered the possibility that they talk shit?
They assimilated the federation in at least 2 time lines. One was shown in episode "parallels". Plus we saw a conquered earth for a moment in the movie "first contact". The queen told seven of nine that they were deliberately letting voyager survive. The borg could have if their survival depended on it. Species 8472 uses organic technology. If the borg weren't capable of assimilating this kind of organic technology, that limitation wouldn't help star wars tech since star wars tech does not use organic technology.
Oh. I get it now. What you were actually asking in the OP was:
"If we gave the Borg enough technological upgrades and prerequisite knowledge, could they conquer the GFFA?"

The answer would be- most likely. What was this meant to prove?
that the borg win in this situation. See? Was that so hard? Thanks for playing. 8)
Just because I feel like being picky and showing you're a dishonest wanker:

They can't put someone in storage indefinitely. If you actually watched the episode you would know that two people went into that transport buffer, but only one could be removed, as the second pattern had:

"The second pattern has degraded 53%. He's gone."

Yeah, indefinitely. Sure. Wank on, trektard.
Don't worry about it, I can be picky too. How much longer would scotty have survived in the transporter buffer had the Enterprise D not have come? We know he was in there for 75 years, but how much longer? I don't know myself. Let's just say it was an unspecified about of time or unclear then. That's what indefinitely means. Go look it up:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indefinitely
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Metahive »

Darthy, instead of more quote-mining and no-limitsing, may I ask you to just make one post were your comprehensibly and succinctly line out exactly what you think the consequences of a Borg captured DSII for the SW Galaxy are? This topic is already enganging in too many irrelevant tangents, so it's time to cut down to the core issue.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:
If I said it? It's right there on page 2. Try to pay attention next time instead of accusing me of lying.
If I were accusing you of lying I would have said that you didn't say it. You need to work on your lingual skills a bit.
Ever heard of insinuation? Next time, pay attention and read the fucking thread. You might not miss so many of the points being presented to you.
darthy wrote:
Flaw? Being a more efficient weapon is a flaw now?
the death star's super laser isn't considered chain reaction based by most star wars fans. That means that the death stars weapon outputs more power than the galaxy gun.
And? The Galaxy Gun achieves the same result, using less power. How is this a flaw?
darthy wrote:The galaxy gun's chain reaction weapon wasn't designed to destroy the death star.
Very true. It was designed to destroy planets, which are orders of magnitude larger. It can also be tuned down to strike single cities, or military installations. Prove that it won't work against the DS. Wait, I already asked you to do that...
darthy wrote:
Explain why it wouldn't work against the Death Star.
the death star's shields plus the death star isn't a planet. That weapon was designed to work against a planet.
Shields, you say? That's funny. Most planets in Star Wars have planetary shields... and are much larger than the Death Star. Try again.
darthy wrote:They assimilated the federation in at least 2 time lines.
Out of how many? That's a pretty pathetic success rate...
darthy wrote:The queen told seven of nine that they were deliberately letting voyager survive.
Great! More hyperbole! Did she give a reason for doing so? Seriously, why were the Borg making attempts to assimilate Voyager if they didn't want/need to?
darthy wrote:The borg could have if their survival depended on it.
:lol: Wait a second... :lol: The Borg Queen died! The Unicomplex was destroyed! Haven't you seen Endgame? Their survival did depend on it.
darthy wrote:Species 8472 uses organic technology. If the borg weren't capable of assimilating this kind of organic technology, that limitation wouldn't help star wars tech since star wars tech does not use organic technology.
Until you meet the Vong... you are, after all, talking about taking on all of Star Wars.
darthy wrote:
Oh. I get it now. What you were actually asking in the OP was:
"If we gave the Borg enough technological upgrades and prerequisite knowledge, could they conquer the GFFA?"

The answer would be- most likely. What was this meant to prove?
that the borg win in this situation. See? Was that so hard? Thanks for playing. 8)
Wow! You must really have some serious fanboy butthurt. I hope it makes you happy to think that if the Borg were given several thousand years worth of leg-up, the Death Star II, and that the Empire weren't allowed to have the Sun Crusher, that the Borg would actually have a snowflake's chance in the GFFA. As I already said:
I wrote:It's analogous to asking:
"If I did enough martial arts training and working out, could I beat Chuck Norris in a fight?"
If you did enough training to beat him, of course you should be able to.
That doesn't mean you can beat him right now.

Sorry. I thought we were actually talking about the Borg from Star Trek, not the Borg from your imagination.
And as SancheztheWhaler said:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:In any case, this entire thread is darthy's tacit admission that Wars womps Trek, regardless of what he might say in his necroing of other threads.
Metahive wrote:Darthy, instead of more quote-mining and no-limitsing, may I ask you to just make one post were your comprehensibly and succinctly line out exactly what you think the consequences of a Borg captured DSII for the SW Galaxy are? This topic is already enganging in too many irrelevant tangents, so it's time to cut down to the core issue.
He's already explained that. The Borg, in order to have captured the DS2, are assumed in the OP to have already adapted to all SW tech, and have the necessary knowledge and improved abilities to take on the Empire. Basically, could the Borg win with God Mode switched on? Like he said, these Borg are so much more advanced than the Borg from ST that they don't even need a logistical base. Apparently he really needed to feel better about SW having higher tech levels and firepower, and this is therapeutic for him. Just play into his fantasy, or he'll accuse you of whining that Wars vs Trek is unfair. :mrgreen:
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

darthy wrote:
Eternal_ Freedom wrote: Just because I feel like being picky and showing you're a dishonest wanker:

They can't put someone in storage indefinitely. If you actually watched the episode you would know that two people went into that transport buffer, but only one could be removed, as the second pattern had:

"The second pattern has degraded 53%. He's gone."

Yeah, indefinitely. Sure. Wank on, trektard.
Don't worry about it, I can be picky too. How much longer would scotty have survived in the transporter buffer had the Enterprise D not have come? We know he was in there for 75 years, but how much longer? I don't know myself. Let's just say it was an unspecified about of time or unclear then. That's what indefinitely means. Go look it up:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indefinitely
Dude, seriously, read what I said. It cannot be indefinite because we know that one of the patterns degraded irreparably. Therefore, that pattern MUST have degraded in LESS THAN 75 years. That is NOT INDEFINITE.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Ever heard of insinuation? Next time, pay attention and read the fucking thread. You might not miss so many of the points being presented to you.
I may have read it and ignored it assuming you were joking as you said this tactic was "just to see what happens". Using the scenario you presented with a ramming technique, if the sun crusher went at ramming speed then the death star would stop it with a their tractor beam. If the sun crusher went faster than light, then the sun crusher would destroy itself in hyperspace.
And? The Galaxy Gun achieves the same result, using less power. How is this a flaw?
A flaw to assume it would have the same affect against a different type of target. Kinda like species 8472's ability to destroy planets. I doubt you would agree that automatically means that no star destroyer would stand a chance against them. The galaxy gun existed between 10 ABY and 11 ABY before it was destroyed. Thanks to you, this scenario happens after the sun crusher was destroyed which is also after this galaxy gun was destroyed.
Out of how many? That's a pretty pathetic success rate...
They don't say how many time lines are borg conquered or how many time lines exist. But they have succeeded at assimilating the federation before.
Great! More hyperbole! Did she give a reason for doing so? Seriously, why were the Borg making attempts to assimilate Voyager if they didn't want/need to?
QUEEN: You've always been my favourite, Seven. In spite of their obvious imperfections. I know how much you care for the Voyager crew, so I've left them alone. Imagine how you'd feel if I were forced to assimilate them.
SEVEN: Voyager is no threat to the Collective. We simply want to return to the Alpha quadrant.
QUEEN: I've no objection to that but if you try to enter my nebula again, I'll destroy you.
Typical borg reasons. They ignore voyager until they considered them a threat. You're really downplaying the borg by focusing on their failed attempts just because the federation used some tricks to stop them.

Let's look at species 116:
ARTURIS: My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries, outwitting them, always one step ahead. But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defences. They were closing in and Species eight four seven two was our last hope to defeat them. You took that away from us! The outer colonies were the first to fall, twenty three in a matter of hours. Our sentry vessels tossed aside, no defence against the storm. By the time they surrounded our star system, hundreds of Cubes, we'd already surrendered to our own terror. A few of us managed to survive, ten, twenty thousand. I was fortunate. I escaped with a vessel, alone, but alive. I don't blame them, they were just Drones acting with their Collective instinct
This was the only species we've seen to successfully make a working slip stream drive, had particle synthesis technology, and they have the ability to understand someone's language in a few phrases. They knew things which arturis said was beyond their understanding. They survived the borg for hundreds of years but still got assimilated in the end. Species 116 did not prove themselves superior to the borg, they lost in the end. So sw tech is supposed to be able to survive them because of a new word like durasteel?
BORG QUEEN (OC): Brave words. I've heard them before from thousands of species across thousands of worlds ...since long before you were created. But now they are all Borg.
You were talking about success rates. The borg have 100% success rate according to this.
Until you meet the Vong... you are, after all, talking about taking on all of Star Wars.
This doesn't mean that the borg cannot assimilate organic based technology. Species 8472's organic technology had an immune response designed to destroy anything chemical, biological, and technological that it comes in contact with. The Vong are not from the star wars galaxy anyway. Plus you already admitted defeat and said the borg would win this scenario.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

No, he said that if you gave the Borg a logistic base and all the tech SW displays, they would win. He DID NOT say that the Borg win in this scenario, when they are given the DS2 by divine fiat.

And as Sanchex pointed out, this situation of yours is an admission that the Borg need divine intervention to stand a chance.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
darthy wrote:
Eternal_ Freedom wrote: Just because I feel like being picky and showing you're a dishonest wanker:

They can't put someone in storage indefinitely. If you actually watched the episode you would know that two people went into that transport buffer, but only one could be removed, as the second pattern had:

"The second pattern has degraded 53%. He's gone."

Yeah, indefinitely. Sure. Wank on, trektard.
Don't worry about it, I can be picky too. How much longer would scotty have survived in the transporter buffer had the Enterprise D not have come? We know he was in there for 75 years, but how much longer? I don't know myself. Let's just say it was an unspecified about of time or unclear then. That's what indefinitely means. Go look it up:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indefinitely
Dude, seriously, read what I said. It cannot be indefinite because we know that one of the patterns degraded irreparably. Therefore, that pattern MUST have degraded in LESS THAN 75 years. That is NOT INDEFINITE.
Yes scotty's friend dies but scotty didn't. Indefinite doesn't mean as long as they want in this case. It means it's unknown how long. Here's what he said about scotty's pattern:
LAFORGE: There's a pattern in the buffer still.
RIKER: It's completely intact. There's less than point zero zero three percent signal degradation. How is that possible?
So Franklin's pattern was degraded 53% and scott's pattern was degraded less than 0.003%. If the limit of keeping someone in a transporter buffer is 75 years then I would expect Scotty's pattern to be degraded more than this.
LAFORGE: Can I ask you a question? What in the world made you think of using the transporter pattern buffer to survive?
SCOTT: Well, we didn't have enough supplies to wait for a rescue, so we had to think of something.
LAFORGE: Yeah, but locking it into a diagnostic cycle so that the pattern wouldn't degrade, and then cross-connecting it phase inducers to provide a regenerative power source, that's absolutely brilliant.
SCOTT: I think it was only fifty percent brilliant. Franklin deserved better.
Let's also take into account that Scotty's signal was kept in tact for 75 years onboard a crashed federation transport ship. Its aft power coils blew up, the main drive assembly's shot, the inducers are melted, and the power couplings are wrecked. Plus this is 75 years of no repair work to the ship and its 23rd century technology. Despite all that, he still survived in a pattern buffer. The ships poor condition can easily explain any signal degradation so it's unknown how long someone can remain inside a transporter buffer. So it looks like someone can survive inside a transporter buffer... indefinitely indefinitely indefinitely. I stand by the statement.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:No, he said that if you gave the Borg a logistic base and all the tech SW displays, they would win. He DID NOT say that the Borg win in this scenario, when they are given the DS2 by divine fiat.

And as Sanchex pointed out, this situation of yours is an admission that the Borg need divine intervention to stand a chance.
I've already pointed out several situations where the borg could capture the death star. Another faction from star trek or star wars could assist them in assimilating sw technology like the think tank, pirates, droids. This is assuming that the borg are incapable of assimilating star wars technology naturally alraedy. I haven't seen anything to prove they can't. I was just playing along with your suspicions on that one. Maybe the borg encountered an Iconian gateway or the guardian then teleported millions of drones there with it. The borg could have assimilated the dream species and used their technology to activate a neurogentic field to put everyone aboard the death star and surrounding areas to sleep so that the borg could go aboard and assimilate it.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:
Ever heard of insinuation? Next time, pay attention and read the fucking thread. You might not miss so many of the points being presented to you.
I may have read it and ignored it assuming you were joking as you said this tactic was "just to see what happens".
Okay, so you actually can't read. The Sun Crusher was 'to see what happens. The Galaxy Gun was 'problem solved'.
darthy wrote:
And? The Galaxy Gun achieves the same result, using less power. How is this a flaw?
A flaw to assume it would have the same affect against a different type of target.
No really. Explain why it wouldn't work. It can be used as a targeted weapon against fortified military bases, it doesn't rely on planetary minerals like iron for its chain reaction. The Death Star is, after all, a fortified military target.
darthy wrote:The galaxy gun existed between 10 ABY and 11 ABY before it was destroyed. Thanks to you, this scenario happens after the sun crusher was destroyed which is also after this galaxy gun was destroyed.
When exactly was the Sun Crusher destroyed? You still haven't adressed that. The Empire won the Bettle of Endor in this scenario. The Sun Crusher and the Galaxy Gun were destroyed by the New Republic. If there was no Rebel victory at Endor, the New Republic never existed. So who destroyed the SC and the GG? You can't even make a cohesive argument when your making up the rules (as you go along, I might add).
darthy wrote:They ignore voyager until they considered them a threat.
Pretty stupid of them, seeing as how the the Unicomplex get destroyed and all. Who would've thought the Borg could fuck up like that?
darthy wrote:You're really downplaying the borg by focusing on their failed attempts just because the federation used some tricks to stop them.
No. You're really exaggerating their abilities by ignoring their failures in support of your no-limits fallacy.
darthy wrote:They knew things which arturis said was beyond their understanding. They survived the borg for hundreds of years but still got assimilated in the end. Species 116 did not prove themselves superior to the borg, they lost in the end. So sw tech is supposed to be able to survive them because of a new word like durasteel?
Seriously, do you not listen to 7 of 9? The Borg can't make neutronium. She said so. You've used so much of her dialogue to try and prove your points, I'd think you would consider her a reliable source.
darthy wrote:
BORG QUEEN (OC): Brave words. I've heard them before from thousands of species across thousands of worlds ...since long before you were created. But now they are all Borg.
You were talking about success rates. The borg have 100% success rate according to this.
:lol: And she said that after Best of Both Worlds. Does that tell you anything?
darthy wrote:
Until you meet the Vong... you are, after all, talking about taking on all of Star Wars.
This doesn't mean that the borg cannot assimilate organic based technology. Species 8472's organic technology had an immune response designed to destroy anything chemical, biological, and technological that it comes in contact with. The Vong are not from the star wars galaxy anyway.
The title of this thread: "Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars. From your OP:
darthy wrote:We have a fully built and fully functional Death Star II that has been completely assimilated by the borg against the empire, the rebels, pirates, millenium falcon, whoever in Star Wars.
Seriously? You want to try and change the rules of a scenario you created? This is fucking pathetic.
darthy wrote:Plus you already admitted defeat and said the borg would win this scenario.
I rescind that statement. You will now explain how the Borg will deal with a deployed Dovin Basal.

And clear up your alternate timeline, ffs. If the New Republic never formed, the Sun Crusher and Galaxy Gun weren't destroyed. You repeatedly ignore yet another important point that has already been made in previous posts.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Metahive »

darthy wrote:I've already pointed out several situations where the borg could capture the death star.
O for fucking ass loud! Make up your muddled mind already what this whole exercise is supposed to be about! You're wavering and waffling worse than a weathervane in a friggin hurricane. Is this "SW Galaxy has to deal with a Borg infested DSII granted to them by divine intervention" or "Borg have reasonable chance to capture a DSII by themselves"? Your constant Borg-wanking implies the latter, but you already conceded somewhere on making this a writer-mandated scenario.
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Tedious »

darthy wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:No, he said that if you gave the Borg a logistic base and all the tech SW displays, they would win. He DID NOT say that the Borg win in this scenario, when they are given the DS2 by divine fiat.

And as Sanchex pointed out, this situation of yours is an admission that the Borg need divine intervention to stand a chance.
I've already pointed out several situations where the borg could capture the death star. Another faction from star trek or star wars could assist them in assimilating sw technology like the think tank, pirates, droids. This is assuming that the borg are incapable of assimilating star wars technology naturally alraedy. I haven't seen anything to prove they can't. I was just playing along with your suspicions on that one. Maybe the borg encountered an Iconian gateway or the guardian then teleported millions of drones there with it. The borg could have assimilated the dream species and used their technology to activate a neurogentic field to put everyone aboard the death star and surrounding areas to sleep so that the borg could go aboard and assimilate it.
So you are saying that they couldn't have done it by themselves. And definitely not with what the abilities they actually had in Trek up until they were defeated in Endgame. Cool. Divine intervention it is.
darthy wrote:So it looks like someone can survive inside a transporter buffer... indefinitely indefinitely indefinitely. I stand by the statement.
That's not what Scotty thought.
TNG:'Relics' wrote:LAFORGE: Yeah, but locking it into a diagnostic cycle so that the pattern wouldn't degrade, and then cross-connecting it phase inducers to provide a regenerative power source, that's absolutely brilliant.
SCOTT: I think it was only fifty percent brilliant. Franklin deserved better.
Seems it doesn't work half the time.

Hey! Just for fun, let's extrapolate...
At the observed rate degradation, Scotty's pattern would have lasted 2,500,000 years until it had degraded to zero (given the observed rate of 0.001% per 25 years). Of course, we know that 53% is 'gone' in the survivability stakes, let's assume that 54% is 'sweet'. That's 1,350.000 years. And that's assuming that degredation doesn't accelerate over time, and that 54% is a usable proportion of a pattern, and that the power source he's using even lasts that long. Tell me again what 'indefinite' means?
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Eleas »

darthy wrote:
A random Memory Alpha link constitutes no proof; it has no canonicity whatsoever. No proof = admission of defeat. Thank you for almost playing.
Here's some evidence

In deep space nine episode "the passenger" vantika transfered his consciousness to bashir by transferring his neural patterns to him:

<snip>

A similar thing happened when Tieran transferred his consciousness to Kes in episode "warlord"

<snip>

Plus we see visual evidence of them appearing to have a new consciousness so this is more than just dialogue.
Still, that doesn't strengthen your point about neural patterns containing the sum total of a person's being. Not that I needed to counter that in the first place, but honestly, your arguments were duplicitous and deserved to be countered.

To wit: you claim the process is perfect. You can't strengthen this claim by pointing to cases where some knowledge is being transferred, particularly not when we know that mental trauma commonly affects ex-Borg.
Thank you. We see here that there is "neural energy" and a physical pattern, and that both are necessary. Therefore, there's no evidence of what you claim, i.e. that the neural energy contains the totality of what makes up that person's mind. Brain structure (such as long-term memory, proclivities and habits) are realistically a physical matter, and there's nothing to contradict that in the canon.

We knew that already, of course, but it's nice of you to destroy your own argument.
I aim to please but don't thank me yet. There's nothing in canon to confirm that either. Just because the brain is a physical object doesn't mean every detail of it is considered part of the physical pattern on the holosuite.
Again, yours was the outstanding claim. It was extraordinary and unfounded. Your claim therefore needs extraordinary proof, which you refuse to deliver outside of sentences beginning with "maybe."

The Holosuite stored enough of their physical pattern so that their appearance can be shown as holosuite characters but their brain patterns or neural patterns as they called them were stored everywhere else. If what you say is true then you're making it sound like the holosuite is what is storing all of their knowledge, consciousness, long term memories, etc.. Even if I give in and say that neural energy is what is needed to transfer a person's consciousness, I'd still say that the neural patterns contain all of a person's knowledge. This is what is implied in countless episodes.
Perhaps it is implied, and I would honestly not be violently opposed to it. What I'm opposed to is the idea that this chaotic bundle of impulses can be perfectly analysed and flawlessly collated, when we know the Borg are dumb. It's not me here trying to act like an ass, but observation: the point of Scorpion (Voyager) as I recall it was exactly that Janeway could aid the Borg... with science. How? Well, it's obvious Voyager can't match the Borg for computing power or scientific data, and if we're talking implications, the obvious one is that the drive and innovation of the Federation is something the Borg lack.

They're not creative. And if they are to build a whole new infrastructure that is to be protected from harm, using personnel who are military end users rather than personnel within the same infrastructure, they'll need creativity and more.
<snip quote on Omega, to save space>
Not bad. It certainly does look like the Borg save a lot more what we might call trivial information than we would know, so that's at least a partial concession from me.

In all honesty, though, I think it would make the greatest amount of sense -- and be the most interesting, dramatically -- for the Borg to separate storage and indexing as concepts. Much like you don't remember all the sites on the Internet, the Borg might be working with a relative small matrix of well-ordered fact and then continually scan and process the rest from the sum total of their assimilated creatures. Perhaps they flag the stuff that representatives of high-order civilisations are emotionally invested in and give that priority. The rest will be there, but part of a vast dataspace that won't necessarily be easy to use until they get around to indexing it.

Following that analogy, say a random Corellian tramp freighter enters Borg space in a TIE and is assimilated. Some of the crew will most likely have been thinking stuff like "why didn't I pack bigger guns/faster engines" as they fought, so the Borg would find out about the existence of said technologies pretty much instantly, but that subjective impression wouldn't be very useful at all. Even knowing that you hook in a Novaldex (TM) module to a TurboBlix circuit to create a Three-Stage Laser (which is also a brand name) won't give them very much more than a hint as to which planetary system(s) they should order their parts from. It's the same with us today.

Really, outside of technology, a Federation or Romulan crew would be much more effective in the long run at infiltration missions. They'd be able to react far quicker and be a lot less conspicuous.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
darthy
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

Okay, so you actually can't read. The Sun Crusher was 'to see what happens. The Galaxy Gun was 'problem solved'.
we were still talking about whether you think I was accusing you of lying or not in regards to whether you mentioned faster than light ramming speed.
No really. Explain why it wouldn't work. It can be used as a targeted weapon against fortified military bases, it doesn't rely on planetary minerals like iron for its chain reaction. The Death Star is, after all, a fortified military target.
I checked wiki, the new essential guide to weapons and technology, the complete sw encyclopedia, and dark empire II. When asked how the weapon worked in the comic they said: "this weapon can destroy a city... a land mass... or even an entire planet anywhere in the galaxy" Its missiles were meant to destroy planets and moons.

It probably needs a planetary atmosphere to trigger its nuclear cloud reactions. The missiles it fires are programmed to exit hyperspace at precise coordinates which is useful for stationary targets. Since the death star can move, it's likely that this projectile would exit hyperspace far enough away where the death star to destroy it with their super laser or whatever else.

In one case the missile didn't even go off because of a faulty bonadan timer. Their response was "typical imperial technology, fortunately". If the borg managed to assimilate this technology or missile like this and turn it on the empire destroying one of their planets they would likely surrender. So there's some risk there if the borg manage to stop one of these missile or a missile malfunctions.
When exactly was the Sun Crusher destroyed? You still haven't adressed that. The Empire won the Bettle of Endor in this scenario. The Sun Crusher and the Galaxy Gun were destroyed by the New Republic. If there was no Rebel victory at Endor, the New Republic never existed. So who destroyed the SC and the GG? You can't even make a cohesive argument when your making up the rules (as you go along, I might add).
Amazing how I'm usually the one that has to explain star trek and star wars canon to everyone huh?... The sun crusher was destroyed when it was sucked into one of the Maw's black holes during the Battle of the Maw Installation in 11 ABY. You should look this stuff up yourself instead of asking me all the time.

If there was no rebel victory at Endor the Empire probably found no need to waste resources to build a sun crusher and galaxy gun in the first place.
Pretty stupid of them, seeing as how the the Unicomplex get destroyed and all. Who would've thought the Borg could fuck up like that?
Well the unicomplex didn't get destroyed by voyager. It was destroyed by the future Janeway.
No. You're really exaggerating their abilities by ignoring their failures in support of your no-limits fallacy.
Although, Species 8472 may find themselves assimilated in the future that does seem to be one defense against assimilation. Since I've pointed out one limit, then that means i'm not actually committing the no limits fallacy. It probably does have limits but I don't think those limits are at star wars tech.
Seriously, do you not listen to 7 of 9? The Borg can't make neutronium. She said so. You've used so much of her dialogue to try and prove your points, I'd think you would consider her a reliable source.
But you don't consider her a reliable source. 7 of 9 may be wrong plus she doesn't know if the borg ever managed to produce neutronium after she was liberated from the collective. The dominion, for example, know how to produce neutronium. It's possible the cardassians and breen learned how to do it later from the dominion themselves. The borg could have assimilated that knowledge or can in the future.
And she said that after Best of Both Worlds. Does that tell you anything?
Nope. The queen said that every individual that stated they couldn't be assimilated were assimilated.
I rescind that statement. You will now explain how the Borg will deal with a deployed Dovin Basal.
You must be assuming the super laser can't take them out when you say that...why? I don't think those things would be able to do much to a death star. Maybe move it around a bit before being destroyed if they're lucky.
And clear up your alternate timeline, ffs. If the New Republic never formed, the Sun Crusher and Galaxy Gun weren't destroyed. You repeatedly ignore yet another important point that has already been made in previous posts.
necessity is the mother of invention. There's no reason to think these things would have been created if there was no rebellion to crush.
Simon_Jester
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by Simon_Jester »

darthy wrote:it says in the star wars encyclopedia that: "It was envisioned as the ultimate weapon, the decisive force that, once and for all, would quiet any remaining opposition in the galaxy"
Which it was intended to do in the hands of the Empire and the Emperor. The Empire has many kinds of resources other than the Death Star (such as the industrial base to supply Death Stars with fuel and spare parts on the gargantuan scale required). Without those other resources, a Death Star may become a lot less scary.
* Pinpoint strike - to use your logic against you, just because we aren't aware of DS2 having a fatal handicap doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Therefore, it must have one, it will be found, and the Empire will successfully attack it and win.
and to use your logic against you, just because it doesn't mean it doesn't have one doean't mean it does have one.
Which is more likely, that the DS2 was designed to be utterly invincible, or that it has some kind of 'backdoor' designed to allow Palpatine to neutralize it should it somehow be turned against him? Does Palpatine strike you as the kind of person likely to build a weapon that can easily defeat him if it falls into the wrong hands?
* Superweapon vs. superweapon - The Empire could simply use another superweapon in the Wars galaxy and destroy the Death Star.
would take years to build another, numbers game remember? The borg would learn of this death star and either stop it before it was finished being constructed or wait for them to almost finish it so they'll have 2 death stars.
Why would they learn of its construction and successfully take it over from the Empire or destroy it before it was operational, when the Rebel Alliance failed to do so twice despite having a home court advantage the Borg don't share?

The first time, they didn't even get the plans to the Death Star until it was already armed and operational, at least to the extent of having its planet-killing main gun working. The second time, they got wind of construction far enough ahead of time to mount a strike on the construction site... and it was a trap! The DS2 was already armed and ready for battle, even if it wasn't mobile.

What would stop the Borg from getting suckered into the same kind of trap- say, the Empire starts construction of another Death Star, they go "oh-ho, let's assimilate it with our first Death Star," they show up, and WHAM! The "unfinished" Death Star III blows up the captured DS-II with its superlaser.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
darthy
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Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars

Post by darthy »

O for fucking ass loud! Make up your muddled mind already what this whole exercise is supposed to be about! You're wavering and waffling worse than a weathervane in a friggin hurricane. Is this "SW Galaxy has to deal with a Borg infested DSII granted to them by divine intervention" or "Borg have reasonable chance to capture a DSII by themselves"? Your constant Borg-wanking implies the latter, but you already conceded somewhere on making this a writer-mandated scenario.
its is a response to the claim that the only way for this scenario to happen is by divine intervention. The person who made this claim was mistaken.
So you are saying that they couldn't have done it by themselves. And definitely not with what the abilities they actually had in Trek up until they were defeated in Endgame. Cool. Divine intervention it is.
The borg don't progress by themselves. They assimilate to improve. They wouldn't have gotten to where they are without the help of others.
Seems it doesn't work half the time.

At the observed rate degradation, Scotty's pattern would have lasted 2,500,000 years until it had degraded to zero (given the observed rate of 0.001% per 25 years). Of course, we know that 53% is 'gone' in the survivability stakes, let's assume that 54% is 'sweet'. That's 1,350.000 years. And that's assuming that degredation doesn't accelerate over time, and that 54% is a usable proportion of a pattern, and that the power source he's using even lasts that long.
hmm, and you accuse me of not knowing how to read. Did you miss the part where I said that it's reasonable to assume that any degradation can be explained by mechanical failure of a crippled old ship that hasn't been maintained by anyone in 75 years? Since the amount of degradation was so much different between Franklin and Scotty, it looks like mechanical failure to me.

So you conclude that it might be 1,350,000 assuming the degradation rate is a linear function. How do you know the it wasn't a exponential decay? It probably is an exponential decay since that's how degradation usually works.

Here's what we know. The pattern we'll say was at 100% when he first went into the transporter buffer. After 75 years it was at least 99.997% but we'll say 99.997% so we have a lower bound figure.

100% = 100% * e^(L*0)
99.997% = 100% * e^(L*75)

0.99997 = e^(L*75)
ln(0.99997) = ln( e^(L*75))
-0.00003 = L*75
-0.0000004 = L

If we consider 54% degradation to be okay as you said then that means scotty could survive as long as his pattern is at 46% or higher.

46% = 100% * e^(-0.0000004*t)
0.46 = e^(-0.0000004*t)
-0.77652878949899 = -0.0000004*t
1941322 = t

So almost 2 million years. This is assuming that scott's pattern decay rate is the slowest it can possibly be using his method. Malfunctions probably played a part on this.
Tell me again what 'indefinite' means?
you accuse me of not being able to read yet need me to define words for you?
1. not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited: an indefinite number.
2. not clearly defined or determined; not precise or exact: an indefinite boundary; an indefinite date in the future.
One person thinks it's 75 years, you say 1.35 million years, I say at least 2 million but probably more. It looks like the limit here is not clearly defined or determined to me. Indefinite it is.
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