Can Federation destroy Death Stars

[Eleas]

This is true insofar as the concepts 'space' and 'moon' are actually a) words for real phenomena b) in common use today. A mere glance at the word 'hyperspace' is enough to rupture your argument, because Star Wars hyperspace is a space with rules apparently different from our real-world mathematical concept(s) of hyperspace. So already at that point we have divergence.

And? Subspace (which is the word in contention) is not the same in RL as it is in ST or SW. Fuck, in RL, both hyper- and subspace are concepts of Euclidian geometry. What is the point you are trying to make?

That your argument boils down to "equal name, equal phenomenon", sans evidence.

Did you eat a big bowl of stupid for breakfast? Or are you trying out a strawman?
Americans speak English, Koreans speak Korean.
We hear Star Wars and Star Trek in the same fucking language. It isn't two homophonic words from different languages that have nothing to do with one another.

My point, o petulant one, is that we have no evidence these words mean the same thing. What we have is a corresponding sound, just as in my above example. However I will amend my analogy: your contention is similar to stating that since the Empire uses 'blasters', then as soon as something is called 'blaster' in a Trek publication and has superficially similar usage that must mean the technologies are identical. Your hand-waving about languages is irrelevant, seeing as how humans in Star Wars speak Basic, which could very well be considered translated for our benefit.

In universe (because that's where the action is), subspace is used by both cultures for sensors, communications, and jamming of the same. Both appear from all the evidence I've ever seen (which admittedly, is vague, because subspace is never thoroughly explained in either franchise) to be the same thing.

Except that subspace in Trek enables physical travel, mass-lightening, incredibly destructive weaponry, and time-travel. Other than that, of course, they could very well be the same.

Is there a single scrap of evidence (no matter how vague) to suggest that they are not the exact same thing, beyond you not wanting them to be?

It's nice to see you living up to your name, but please try adhere to the rules of debate while doing so. That equal name means equal phenomenon is an extraordinary claim. The onus is on you to prove it with something more than "it's the same because both lets you transmit at FTL speeds!1!1!!"

[Eleas]

By the way, the earliest reference to subspace in Star Wars was in 1995, in Children of the Jedi, by Barbara Hambly- who was previously a Star Trek writer. So if you really want to argue literary bullshit over whether or not they're the same thing, I'm going to say yes, they are. Because it was a Star Trek author who introduced subspace into Star Wars.

Argument out of divining author's intent. Please revisit previous threads to find out exactly how stupid this makes you sound.

[Darth Tedious]

Your hand-waving about languages is irrelevant, seeing as how humans in Star Wars speak Basic, which could very well be considered translated for our benefit.

I just told you that in two of my last three posts, you stupid fucking twat! Don't act like it's news to me.
I'm not going to bother debating against a wall of ignorance, nor a broken record.

[Connor MacLeod]

By the way, the earliest reference to subspace in Star Wars was in 1995, in Children of the Jedi, by Barbara Hambly- who was previously a Star Trek writer. So if you really want to argue literary bullshit over whether or not they're the same thing, I'm going to say yes, they are. Because it was a Star Trek author who introduced subspace into Star Wars.

Actually the subspace crap predated the SW novels. The WEG materials (which many SW novels, especially the early ones, were based on) involved frequent mentions of subspace technology (such as the subspace radio.) Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire novel had Luke messing with his X-wing's subspace radio as well.

WEG seemed to borrow alot from TNG era Trek. When you browse their materials you always find tons of stuff that you can see as a reference to TNG ("Marauder corvette" "Preybird Fighter, etc. Both of which look like their namesakes.) Not that this proves anything, unless you want to tell me that SW and ST had a secret intra-galactic trade treaty with the Klingons and Ferengi.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ummm... no. If subspace and hyperspace were the same thing, they wouldn't be called two different things. There are subspace jamming, sensors and comms in Star Wars. All evidence suggests that SW subspace and ST subspace are the same thing.

Care to list this evidence? I'd love to see it, since form what I know of SW subspace (And what I can recall of ST subspace and read on Memory Alpha) they aren't the same.

[Agent Sorchus]

No, I do believe that it is older than WEG, but need someone to double check. In the Han Solo trilogy I think there is a earlier reference to subspace and is far before the WEG era.

[Eleas]

Your hand-waving about languages is irrelevant, seeing as how humans in Star Wars speak Basic, which could very well be considered translated for our benefit.

I just told you that in two of my last three posts, you stupid fucking twat! Don't act like it's news to me.

Sit back down, you little shit. You may have spoken about that earlier, but that doesn't invalidate my point. You see, contrary to yourself, I like these "points". I advance them. I use them to pursue an actual argument. All of this entails something you apparently don't understand. Meaning you attempt to wriggle out of answering by personal attack; in a word, an ad hominem.

I'm not going to bother debating against a wall of ignorance, nor a broken record.

Translation: "I have no case, no proof of wrongdoing in my opponent, nor indeed the ability to craft arguments. Therefore I will slink off while pretending victory, fooling no-one but myself."

Buh-bye, kiddo. Next time, why not learn the meaning of the terms you use before applying them. I did not, in this thread, display either a wall of ignorance nor argumentation by broken record. Had I done this, you would have been able to show where I did. You're welcome to show me where I did, of course, but I suspect crediting you with honesty is a fool's game.

[Connor MacLeod]

No, I do believe that it is older than WEG, but need someone to double check. In the Han Solo trilogy I think there is a earlier reference to subspace and is far before the WEG era.

Yep you're right. Han Solo and the Lost Legacy, forgot that one. That's where they find Xim the Despot's lost treasure had "old subspace" components.

[Azron_Stoma]

I am curious as to what differences exist between SW Subspace and ST Subspace, as I am not aware of any differences though, like Darth Tedious I always felt that the references made between the two are left somewhat vague.

Also I was always under the impression that in the debate we treat similar terms, even fictional ones, as the same thing unless there is evidence that says otherwise.

[Eleas]

I am curious as to what differences exist between SW Subspace and ST Subspace, as I am not aware of any differences though, like Darth Tedious I always felt that the references made between the two are left somewhat vague.

Star Trek subspace allows -- even for very young civilization -- FTL travel, mass-lightening, and time travel. None of these things are true in Star Wars, despite their subspace communications having been used throughout the galaxy for millennia.

It could be the same thing. I'm arguing against the blithe assumption of them being so, that's all.

Also I was always under the impression that in the debate we treat similar terms, even fictional ones, as the same thing unless there is evidence that says otherwise.

If one is careful, one can do that. The problem is when similarity of names is itself considered an argument in favour. It's not. At best, it's an assumption.

[Connor MacLeod]

SW subspace seems to be primarily realspace based. It can be used as an active sensing mechanism (Star by Star) even against inert materials, and it can likewise be blocked by realspace phenomena (like shielding, as per HTTE) It's more akin to tachyonic matter or hypermatter (just a different kind of magic) than some inter-dimensional stuff.

[Batman]

Isn't Trek subspace too, more or less? AFAIK their FTL sensors rely on subspace and yet they can detect inert objects, ships at Warp need a navigational deflector to protect them against realspace obstacles, they can manipulate the mass of realspace objects (pretty hard to do if stuff enclosed in a subspace field just vanishes into another dimension) and in turn, ships at Warp can be affected by realspace gravity.
Looks too me Trek subspace does a lot of the same stuff Wars subspace (or hyperspace)do-let them do FTL in realspace-somehow.
None of which, of course, means it needs to be the same 'somehow'.

[BlackAdder]

Maybe SW used to use subspace to travel until they developed hyperspace? And the names still carry on or something. We know that the SW subspace radios are superior to the ST ones, so either they're different or one is vastly more advanced.

[Batman]

Are they? ISD subspace comms have a range of 100ly, the Falcon's 40, and an X-Wing's a whopping 25. The big E wasn't out of communications range all that often. Out of realtime communications range, yes, occasionally, but even that was rare, at least for the E-D and as long as they were in the Alpha Quadrant (and IIRC even during TOS the problem usually wasn't that they couldn't reach Starfleet Command, they just couldn't get an answer in time to matter, but that's from very vague memory). Also, somewhere in TTT Han comments that ISDs can't boost long range communications through shields and battle debris (I need to get an electronic copy of those books) while in Trek, that seems to work reasonably well (ref Admiral Hanson having realtime visual communications with the E-D during the battle of Wolf 359).

And I can't recall any mention of Star Wars ever using subspace based FTL. We have the everyday hyperdrive, the Aing-Tii jump drive, the Oswaft jumpdrive-ish ability to simply 'skip' large distances of realspace, and probably a dozen others I forgot or never read about to begin with, but I don't think I've ever seen subspace mentioned in connection with FTL travel.

On both issues, however, my knowledge is far from complete (if it were, I would've had that quote I mentioned handy) so feel free to correct me.

[Azron_Stoma]

Are they? ISD subspace comms have a range of 100ly, the Falcon's 40, and an X-Wing's a whopping 25. The big E wasn't out of communications range all that often. Out of realtime communications range, yes, occasionally, but even that was rare, at least for the E-D and as long as they were in the Alpha Quadrant (and IIRC even during TOS the problem usually wasn't that they couldn't reach Starfleet Command, they just couldn't get an answer in time to matter, but that's from very vague memory). Also, somewhere in TTT Han comments that ISDs can't boost long range communications through shields and battle debris (I need to get an electronic copy of those books) while in Trek, that seems to work reasonably well (ref Admiral Hanson having realtime visual communications with the E-D during the battle of Wolf 359).

To be fair It's my understanding that the Federation has a rather vast Subspace relay network to facilitate that sort of thing, I'm not sure what the range of subspace coms are without using the relay is though. But I'm starting to see what you mean about the potential differences and how they may very well be different things.

I guess we can write it off as being "Inconclusive" and flip a coin?

[Connor MacLeod]

Isn't Trek subspace too, more or less? AFAIK their FTL sensors rely on subspace and yet they can detect inert objects, ships at Warp need a navigational deflector to protect them against realspace obstacles, they can manipulate the mass of realspace objects (pretty hard to do if stuff enclosed in a subspace field just vanishes into another dimension) and in turn, ships at Warp can be affected by realspace gravity.
Looks too me Trek subspace does a lot of the same stuff Wars subspace (or hyperspace)do-let them do FTL in realspace-somehow.
None of which, of course, means it needs to be the same 'somehow'.

Alot of that depends on what they are detecting and how they are detecting it. Subspace in Trek does not seem to describe a single, precise thing, but rather to encompass a variety of phenomena including particle and radiation of varying kinds (browsing memory alpha does not change this impression.) More to the point, given the number and kinds of naturally occuring magic particles that seem to exist, and how pervasive subspace stuff in general is, it is quite possible that subspace emissions can occur naturally (which again, browsing through memory alpha, seems to be a justified conclusion.)

The same could be said of subspace in SW, but to my knowledge there is no evidence to suggest that. (tachyonic or hyperwaves may be another story, however.)

Hell, even if it IS active rather than passive, that doesn't rule out anything I am saying. For all we know its "active" nature requires subspace sensors to "bounce off" specific kinds of phenomena it could be immune to normal matter. Hyperwaves/tachyons in SW seem to behave this way (EG dooku's Solar Sailer being a prime exapmle.)

[BlackAdder]

[quote="Batman"]Are they? ISD subspace comms have a range of 100ly, the Falcon's 40, and an X-Wing's a whopping 25. The big E wasn't out of communications range all that often. Out of realtime communications range, yes, occasionally, but even that was rare, at least for the E-D and as long as they were in the Alpha Quadrant (and IIRC even during TOS the problem usually wasn't that they couldn't reach Starfleet Command, they just couldn't get an answer in time to matter, but that's from very vague memory). Also, somewhere in TTT Han comments that ISDs can't boost long range communications through shields and battle debris (I need to get an electronic copy of those books) while in Trek, that seems to work reasonably well (ref Admiral Hanson having realtime visual communications with the E-D during the battle of Wolf 359).

And I can't recall any mention of Star Wars ever using subspace based FTL. We have the everyday hyperdrive, the Aing-Tii jump drive, the Oswaft jumpdrive-ish ability to simply 'skip' large distances of realspace, and probably a dozen others I forgot or never read about to begin with, but I don't think I've ever seen subspace mentioned in connection with FTL travel. quote]

That (my post) was a complete and utter guess, so you're probably right. However, in "Best of Both Worlds", isn't the Enterprise out of real-time range when they first engage the Borg too?

[Baffalo]

Isn't Trek subspace too, more or less? AFAIK their FTL sensors rely on subspace and yet they can detect inert objects, ships at Warp need a navigational deflector to protect them against realspace obstacles, they can manipulate the mass of realspace objects (pretty hard to do if stuff enclosed in a subspace field just vanishes into another dimension) and in turn, ships at Warp can be affected by realspace gravity.
Looks too me Trek subspace does a lot of the same stuff Wars subspace (or hyperspace)do-let them do FTL in realspace-somehow.
None of which, of course, means it needs to be the same 'somehow'.

Alot of that depends on what they are detecting and how they are detecting it. Subspace in Trek does not seem to describe a single, precise thing, but rather to encompass a variety of phenomena including particle and radiation of varying kinds (browsing memory alpha does not change this impression.) More to the point, given the number and kinds of naturally occuring magic particles that seem to exist, and how pervasive subspace stuff in general is, it is quite possible that subspace emissions can occur naturally (which again, browsing through memory alpha, seems to be a justified conclusion.)

The same could be said of subspace in SW, but to my knowledge there is no evidence to suggest that. (tachyonic or hyperwaves may be another story, however.)

Hell, even if it IS active rather than passive, that doesn't rule out anything I am saying. For all we know its "active" nature requires subspace sensors to "bounce off" specific kinds of phenomena it could be immune to normal matter. Hyperwaves/tachyons in SW seem to behave this way (EG dooku's Solar Sailer being a prime exapmle.)

From what I understand of radio frequencies and the argument, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps subspace and hyperspace are two seperate entities, but not entirely dissimilar. And the reason I say this is perhaps in the naming itself (No, I am NOT getting into the same thing as Darth Tedious). If you look at the prefixes, subspace means 'below space' while hyper means 'above'. And if that's the case, then it's similar to what we see in the radio frequencies and even audio frequencies.



Let's say that subspace is space that is more compressed than that of normal space. Now, let's say you're travelling at 100km/hr in normal space, and then you plunge into subspace. That 100km/hr might seem to be 200 or 300km/hr because the actual distance is compressed, but you still travel normally. This lets you bypass the speed of light by simply squeezing space together and stepping across. That's the most popular theory for warp drive anyway. The reason subspace appears to be so energy rich is because the charge density is much higher, meaning that a cubic meter of matter from subspace has several times the density as a normal cubic meter from normal space. And because space is condensed, transmissions sent through subspace can travel much faster than the speed of light from the perspective of normal space. Within subspace, it's still obeying the laws of physics.

So how does hyperspace let you bypass the speed of light if it's the opposite, a more 'expanded' space above normal space? Simple. Just like electromagnetic waves, the longer the wavelength, the more energy it conveys. Hyperspace, I contend, is filled with hyperactive particles zipping around and providing more energy than particles in our own space. This lets hypermatter be much more reactive and provide tons of energy beyond simple anti-matter, because the matter comes directly from this hyper charged region of space above our own. But how does a ship go faster than light? Well, if the particles streaming past in hyperspace go fast enough, a hyperdrive might simply reach out, grab hold, and use the hyper charged particles to propel themselves along. Because the particles are moving close to the speed of light IN HYPERSPACE, because our own universe is more condensed (just like subspace is more condensed than our own) the ship gets pulled along faster than the speed of light.

That's the theory anyway. Oh, and Darth Tedious. If I go to England and get fish and chips, in America, I'd call that fish and fries. There are plenty of words that are spoken by one language but have different meanings depending on region. Your argument assumed everyone speaks the same way throughout the English speaking world.

[Batman]

I was rather under the impression that the high frequency/short wavelength parts of the electromagnetic spectrum are the more energetic
Hence why we use microwaves to heat our food, X-ray/infrared to look through walls/people etc...

[Baffalo]

I was rather under the impression that the high frequency/short wavelength parts of the electromagnetic spectrum are the more energetic
Hence why we use microwaves to heat our food, X-ray/infrared to look through walls/people etc...

Shush. My theory stands!

[Batman]

Err-no? At best it balances on one foot-I don't know if it's eventually viable, I don't know beans about physics, but I think I can at least follow your reasoning on the subspace side of things. The hyperspace side, however, falls flat on its face.

[Darth Tedious]

I should point out that my stance is not based on SW subspace and ST having the same name, but the fact that they appear to exhibit the same characteristics...

The evidence is limited, because subspace hasn't been described in as much detail within SW as in ST.
It is, however, quite clear that SW hyperspace and ST subspace are most definitely not the same thing. Hyperspace is described as being extradimensional, where subspace is stated (in both franchises) to exist within normal space (the most thorough description being Geordi's honeycomb analogy).
In Trek, subspace comms have limited range because they slow down over distance. This effect is countered by building a network of relays. In Wars, the reason fo limited subspace comms range is not given, though the solution is the same- a network of subspace communication relays.
There is the matter of subspace interacting with space/time. I'd hope we all know the explanation of how warp fields work. It has been very clearly stated (in the Death Star novel) that the subspace comms and sensor jamming employed by the DS was strong enough to cause a distortion in the fabric of space/time. The similarity to the warp bubble effect is too great to simply ignore.

While it is true that Treknology has made much greater use of subspace than SW tech has, this does not prove that they are different, and to claim that it does is false logic.

[BlackAdder]

I'm just going to take a leaf from the Culture series and put forward a theory.

Subspace and hyperspace both exist in the SW and ST universes. One is 'above space' (hyperspace) the other is 'below space' (subspace). (Anyone with more knowledge about how Culture hyperspace/ultraspace (HS) and subspace/infraspace (SS) works, feel free to correct me.) SW uese HS for travel and SS for communications. ST hasn't the tech to use (or discover) HS, and so uses only SS. Also, the ST subspace communication method is inferior to the SW method.

I don't know a lot about ST, but I think that doesn't contradict anything.

[Azron_Stoma]

SW uses HS for communications as well, otherwise how would they have had real time communications from across the galaxy during the clone wars?

[BlackAdder]

SW uses HS for communications as well, otherwise how would they have had real time communications from across the galaxy during the clone wars?

Is that ever mentioned? I thought their real-time communications was never actually delved into that much. The HoloNet (I think that's what it's called) could be just a series of relays, like in ST, only more developed or using better technology because obviously they are a lot faster.