Can Federation destroy Death Stars

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Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Picard » 2010-11-07 12:57pm

As in title.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Picard » 2010-11-07 12:58pm

Serafina wrote:Uh yeah Picard, those aren't exhaust ports. I always assumed that they were maintenance shafts for smaller construction vessels to get inside the DSII in order to put it together. The fact that they went all the way to the power-core suggest that they were used to put it together. The fact that they branch off into other parts of the super structure pretty much proves that they aren't any sort of energy management system, seeing as how you don't want planet-buster waste energy going anywhere but out. Also, why would the thermal exhaust port on the DSII be big enough to fly a freighter into?


By that logic, DSI should not have any exhaust ports, yet it did.

That's pretty damn inconclusive, compared to what we see in the movie. Furthermore, it doesn't state that those are exhaust shafts.


It is only inconclusive due to your bias.

Then why is no one ever using it?
Right, sorry, your are imagining things again.


Federation is only power that has it, and it isn't using it due to Traty of Algeron.

Bullshit. You are outright ignoring both C-canon and ST-canon. Your conclusion is pretty weak and obviously not based on evidence.


If you were even slightly familiar with G-canon, you would not be saying that.

No, it isn't. You claimed that the Federation is the only faction working on phase-cloaks, despite evidence to the contrary.


And you are telling me that I don't know English? What I meant was that Federation was only power which actually built useful interphase cloak.

Did he use a phase-cloak? Hmm?


Romulan one. But that is irrelevant.

Hardly - but hey, how about some evidence?


And how about some logic and actual understanding? And you warp everything that doesn't fit your wiev.

Yes, it has shown that it can penetrate a low-density material. Not that it can penetrate thick layers of dense metal. That's just you jumping to conclusions.


Asteroids are usually not pure low nor pure high density materials. And Death Star isn't of high density either.

Yes, we don't know it. Thanks for admitting that. But you just automatically conclude that it can, can't you?


And what would prevent Federation ship from passing through shields normally and then cloaking?

Again, you don't get what i am talking about. When they can't detect a ship that is visible to the naked eye, then that's pretty good evidence that their visual sensors are worse than just a simple eye.


Again, you show your overwhelming bias and ignore all evidence contrary to your claims.

HEY, MORON: THEY HAD MILLIONS OF SMALL VENTS! Again, you are ignoring canon.


Which level of "canon"?

Sure you can - you can throw hollow insults around as much as you like. That would just illustrate your low moral character.


It will hardly ever be lower than yours.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby fallendragon » 2010-11-07 01:17pm

Picard here is a nice little page on the Death Stars, inclueding design flaws and how they were fixed. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star


As for my view, in theory Star Trek could destroy the first Death Star, however I see no possible way for Star Trek to destroy the second Death Star once it is completed

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Wyrm » 2010-11-07 01:58pm

Except that phase cloak has been shown to actually work.
Let's not forget that this is exactly the same phase cloak that fucked up the Pegasus in the first place. The Enterprise only considered relying on the buggy piece of shit because they had little other choice. The phase cloak is nowhere near ready for prime time, if it's ever perfected.

By that logic, DSI should not have any exhaust ports, yet it did.
How does that follow? The stuff in that diagram of the DSII weren't exhaust ports. Those were never stated to be exhaust ports (unlike ANH, which did characterize the target shaft as an exhaust port), and given the real exhaust ports would be millions of milimeter sized holes, they would be irrelevant to put on a diagram showing an attack plan to fly into the reactor system.

Which level of "canon"?
Doesn't matter, since it's not contradicted, no matter how much you whine about it.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Imperial528 » 2010-11-07 02:15pm

fallendragon wrote:Picard here is a nice little page on the Death Stars, inclueding design flaws and how they were fixed. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star


As for my view, in theory Star Trek could destroy the first Death Star, however I see no possible way for Star Trek to destroy the second Death Star once it is completed


It's rather unlikely that a photon torpedo could make it into the DS1's exhaust port, since they haven't been seen to be able to maneuver the way a proton torpedo can, and they are significantly larger than a photon torpedo.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby fallendragon » 2010-11-07 02:26pm

Imperial528, I said possible in theory, not likely, it is a 1 in a trillion holy crap shot... but in theory possible, as there was an episode where they hit a 2 meter object and I would expect a higher angle of attack, thus limiting the need for the radical turn, granted this ignores the shielding and return fire issues, but agian, it is in theory possible


And at Picard as I stated in the other topic,where is your proof that the enterpirse was allowed to keep the device? As even a passing level of familiarity with the Romulans would tell you that they would demand its distruction after Picard (the intelligent one) decloaks.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2010-11-07 03:53pm

Picard wrote:What I meant was that Federation was only power which actually built useful interphase cloak.


You fail so badly Picard. It wasn't useful, it was a prototype that KILLED ALMOST ALL OF IT'S TEST CREW. Good heavens man, are you so retarded you equate "prototypefailed and killed test crew" with "useful technology"?

Did he use a phase-cloak? Hmm?


Romulan one. But that is irrelevant.

[/quote]

Fucktard, it WASN'T a phase cloak, it was just an ORDINARY Romulan cloaking device. Please, get your own Trek knowledge straight before you try and attack Star Wars based on it
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby fallendragon » 2010-11-07 04:33pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
Picard wrote:What I meant was that Federation was only power which actually built useful interphase cloak.


You fail so badly Picard. It wasn't useful, it was a prototype that KILLED ALMOST ALL OF IT'S TEST CREW. Good heavens man, are you so retarded you equate "prototypefailed and killed test crew" with "useful technology"?

Did he use a phase-cloak? Hmm?


Romulan one. But that is irrelevant.



Fucktard, it WASN'T a phase cloak, it was just an ORDINARY Romulan cloaking device. Please, get your own Trek knowledge straight before you try and attack Star Wars based on it[/quote]

That is not irrelevant, that is actaully the single LARGEST PROBLEM with this theory of yours Picard.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Serafina » 2010-11-07 04:35pm

By that logic, DSI should not have any exhaust ports, yet it did.
First, stop putting words into my mouth - those were from takemeout_totheblack. Not that he is wrong, mind you - and stop using the word "logic", you obviously don't understand it. We clearly SAW the thermal exhaust vent on the first Death Star, and it was clearly stated to be such.

It is only inconclusive due to your bias.
Okay, let's compare:
-We didn't see any exhaust in these vents. Granted, it might be some exotic radiation or the like.
-It wasn't actually a specifically built shaft, and obviously there due to incomplete construction
-It is never referred to as a vent
-It branches off all over the superstructure, and sometimes ends within it. That would be contrary to the purpose as a vent.
-It didn't lead straight into the reactor, since they had to lock onto the reactor to find it - which would not be the case if it was a shaft specifically designed to lead into the vent.
-We have a canon-statement that explains that it wasn't a vent.

So yes, you are right. The evidence is NOT inconclusive - it conclusively shows that G-canon makes no statement about it being a vent, shows things that are contrary to it being a vent, and that we have a statement that it's not a vent. Therefore, it's conclusively not a vent.

Federation is only power that has it, and it isn't using it due to Traty of Algeron.
Ignoring canon again, eh?
Both the Romulans and Klingons worked on it. Besides, having a faulty prototpye is NOT equal to having a fully functional device.
And you are telling me that I don't know English? What I meant was that Federation was only power which actually built useful interphase cloak.
Go ahead. Just TRY to prove that statement.
Romulan one. But that is irrelevant.
Aah, here we go. So the Federation is the only power with a phase-cloak - and Sisko used a romulan phase cloak. I guess the Romulans are Federation-members now :lol:

Asteroids are usually not pure low nor pure high density materials. And Death Star isn't of high density either.
:lol: Even nickel-iron asteroids are less dense than actual military armor used TODAY.

And what would prevent Federation ship from passing through shields normally and then cloaking?
:roll: Since when can Federation ships pass trough shields? Oh, right, you are ignoring that SW has particle shielding.


Okay, let's see. Did he present a SINGLE SHRED OF PROOF? No, he didn't - he just repeated his claims and even contradicted himself.

Again, his self-contradiction:
"Only the Federation has phase cloaks" "The Defiant used a Romulan phase cloak". Picard, do you know the old robot saying "DOES. NOT. COMPUTE."? Well, this doesn't. And this is the reason why no one is taking your seriously (well, except possibly Destructionator XIII) - you are obviously a moron.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby fallendragon » 2010-11-07 04:43pm

Serafina... the romulan cloak was a standard one not a phase-cloak.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby SilverWingedSeraph » 2010-11-07 05:35pm

fallendragon wrote:Serafina... the romulan cloak was a standard one not a phase-cloak.

She knows that. Picard is the one claiming otherwise.

EDIT: I have to ask, why is anyone even bothering to debate this guy? He makes shit up as he goes along, he rejects any evidence he dislikes, either by ignoring it or by claiming it violates G-Canon even when it doesn't, and he generally displays no signs of ever changing this behavior. Trying to have any sort of intelligent discussion with him seems like a waste of time.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby fallendragon » 2010-11-07 05:54pm

I'm not having an intelligent discussion with him, I am poking him to see what half baked idea he comes up with next.

And as a serious question anyone know what the Death Star was armored with? I'm thinking durasteel but that is just what I would have made it out of.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Night_stalker » 2010-11-07 06:03pm

The Death Stars were made of Quandanium steel. At least,Wookiepedia says that's what they're made of.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Quadanium_steel
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Kythnos » 2010-11-07 06:12pm

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:EDIT: I have to ask, why is anyone even bothering to debate this guy? He makes shit up as he goes along, he rejects any evidence he dislikes, either by ignoring it or by claiming it violates G-Canon even when it doesn't, and he generally displays no signs of ever changing this behavior. Trying to have any sort of intelligent discussion with him seems like a waste of time.


[spoiler=]Personally because I have a bet going about which trek wankage he pulls out next. He has been moving through the standard Trekko reply list.[/spoiler]
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Purple » 2010-11-07 08:43pm

I gave up arguing with him when he said that a few Fedie torpedoes can destroy a star destroyer.
Yea, what ever. Sheer insanity.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Metahive » 2010-11-08 12:19am

Sure they can. They can scribble one on a piece of paper and then destroy it as much as they like. As for the actual Death Stars employed by the Empire, I'd say only through subterfuge and sabotage at best but not with a direct military assault.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Lord Revan » 2010-11-08 02:44am

I'd really want to see the evidence that Starfleet ships can move thru shields at will, only incident where a federation "ship"(actually a shuttlecraft) moved thru an active shield I can remember was when the Argo went thru the shields of the Enterprise in Nemesis, but that incident has a minor problem of the Argo being launched from the Enterprise (on purpose by the crew I might add) so there was no reason for them to try to stop it (in fact it was in their best intrest make certain that the Agro got thru).

how would this translate being able to penetrate shields under combat conditions is beond me.

I gave up arguing with him when he said that a few Fedie torpedoes can destroy a star destroyer.
Yea, what ever. Sheer insanity.
was that a shielded star destroyer, or an unshielded one?
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby adam_grif » 2010-11-08 03:24am

If you can smuggle a photorp into a the hangar bay of a Stardestroyer, you can probably blow it up with a single TM style 64MT device. Iirc we've had several EU instances of tiny explosive devices (smaller than proton torpedoes) causing substantial secondary detonations (probably the fuel and munitions stored) and taking out the whole ship in a spectacular explosion.

But even if you could take out a couple like that (already a bit of a stretch), it's insignificant in the long run.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Purple » 2010-11-08 07:49am

was that a shielded star destroyer, or an unshielded one?


Let me fetch you the link to the posts:
His post (and my 1st reply): viewtopic.php?p=3420126#p3420126
His reply: viewtopic.php?p=3420214#p3420214

I mean did you read that?
1) Exit hyperspace at maximum range of ST ship and get destroyed by few photon torpedoes
2) Exit hyperspace on top of ST ship and do the same


What is this guy thinking? Plus, specificly mentioned shielded.
1. Exit hyperspace at the maximum range of the ST ship and slowly fly toward it laughing as the weak torpedoes bounce off his shields.


So it's not some sort of tactical solution. No, he thinks that direct fire from several torpedoes at a shielded Star Destroyer will blow it up.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby adam_grif » 2010-11-08 08:02am

Delusions run deep.

I was talking to this big trek fan and the topic casually got onto to Trek vs Wars. He kept saying things like "oh man, Wars has NO CHANCE! The Photon Torpedos are 64 megatonnes!"

Most people outside of our little community have no idea of the scales involved or the capabilities of SW.
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'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Picard » 2010-11-08 09:52am

Okay, let's compare:
-We didn't see any exhaust in these vents. Granted, it might be some exotic radiation or the like.
-It wasn't actually a specifically built shaft, and obviously there due to incomplete construction
-It is never referred to as a vent
-It branches off all over the superstructure, and sometimes ends within it. That would be contrary to the purpose as a vent.
-It didn't lead straight into the reactor, since they had to lock onto the reactor to find it - which would not be the case if it was a shaft specifically designed to lead into the vent.
-We have a canon-statement that explains that it wasn't a vent.

So yes, you are right. The evidence is NOT inconclusive - it conclusively shows that G-canon makes no statement about it being a vent, shows things that are contrary to it being a vent, and that we have a statement that it's not a vent. Therefore, it's conclusively not a vent.


So DSII would simply work until it blew up?
We actually saw unfinished exhaust port (remember round thing at top?)

Ignoring canon again, eh?
Both the Romulans and Klingons worked on it. Besides, having a faulty prototpye is NOT equal to having a fully functional device.


Your version of canon. Both Klingons and Romulans worked on it and failed utterly. Federation is only power that has access to Interphase cloak that actually works.

Go ahead. Just TRY to prove that statement.


Episode "Pegasus": Federation experimented with interphase cloak in 2358. Cloak failed after some time. Same cloak was later successfully used by USS Enterprise D.
"The Next Phase": Romulans were experimenting with molecular phase inverter to create cloak. Experiment failed. Klingons also unsuccessfully experimented with interphase cloak.
VOY: "Distant Origin": Voth regularly use interphase cloaks, but they are not Alpha Quadrant power.

Aah, here we go. So the Federation is the only power with a phase-cloak - and Sisko used a romulan phase cloak. I guess the Romulans are Federation-members now



You're dumb. Sisko did not use phase cloak, Defiant's cloak is regular one.

Even nickel-iron asteroids are less dense than actual military armor used TODAY.


"latest developments involve the use of carbon nanotubes to improve toughness even further.[citation needed] Commercially produced or researched ceramics for such type of armour include boron carbide, silicon carbide, aluminium oxide (sapphire or "alumina"), aluminium nitride, titanium boride and Syndie, a synthetic diamond composite. "

Density of nickel is 8.912 g/cm^3. Density of iron is 7.874 g/cm^3. Density of materials used in cobham armor is 2.52, 3.21, ~4, 3.26, 4.52 and 3.52 grams per cubic centimeter. So you are utterly wrong. Or deliberately lying.

Since when can Federation ships pass trough shields? Oh, right, you are ignoring that SW has particle shielding.


Never shown in use on Death Star. And particle shields are physical barrier too (just logic), so interphase cloak can be used to bypass them.

Again, his self-contradiction:
"Only the Federation has phase cloaks" "The Defiant used a Romulan phase cloak". Picard, do you know the old robot saying "DOES. NOT. COMPUTE."? Well, this doesn't. And this is the reason why no one is taking your seriously (well, except possibly Destructionator XIII) - you are obviously a moron.


Misquote, misinterpretation and direct lie in one. Just when I thought you could not get any "better".

Most people outside of our little community have no idea of the scales involved or the capabilities of SW.


Beacouse these scales and capabilities are completely made up by your little community.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Purple » 2010-11-08 10:22am

Picard wrote:Beacouse these scales and capabilities are completely made up by your little community.

No, because they are a logical conclusion based on what is presented in the EU.
For crying out loud read the main site, and it has been discussed to death here anyway.

The calculations are all there for you to see and check if you don't believe it.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.

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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Eleas » 2010-11-08 11:33am

Picard wrote:As in title.


If the Death Star was (semi-)powered down and otherwise did not defend itself (i.e. essentially a controlled demolition project) then yes, the Federation would probably be able to destroy it. I don't doubt they'd have to devote a nontrivial amount of resources to that end, and it would be silly as all hell to do so, but they could conceivably destabilize it by altering its distribution of volume, weaken it by ruining its structural gravity generators, and so on. But if they somehow found an abandoned Death Star, this would be an incredibly stupid and self-defeating thing to do.

Imagine, for a moment, that Naval Station North Island in San Diego was sent back in time to the year 0 BC. Imagine it turning up - minus the residents - inside the territory of a significant power (say, Byzantium). Even if the scientists of that city-state only comprehended a bare fraction of the technology they'd find, even if much of it was damaged beyond repair, it would still be a coup undreamed of. This still pales in comparison to what a partially intact Death Star would mean for Federation scientists.


But the Federation fighting an operational Death Star?

No. There's literally no way. Phase cloak nonsense aside, the thing is just too big and too decentralized for anything other than an enemy of equal power to affect it. You would have to possess detailed blueprints of the DS to have any shot at sabotaging it the way the Rebels did, and even if you had that, you'd need indepth knowledge of SW technology to suss out the particulars of the weak spot. The Federation has neither.
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Kythnos » 2010-11-08 11:35am

Picard wrote:So DSII would simply work until it blew up?
We actually saw unfinished exhaust port (remember round thing at top?)

Except that it was never stated to be an exhaust port and it is stated that they where replaced with millions of millimeter size heat exchangers. So, how does the "tunnel" we see equal a millimeter is size?

Picard wrote:Your version of canon. Both Klingons and Romulans worked on it and failed utterly. Federation is only power that has access to Interphase cloak that actually works.

I should not have to say this but 50% success rate does not equal a working item, it has worst odds than playing Russian roulette. It should be added that the Enterprise use the device for only a few minutes at most, the defect that killed the crew might take only slightly more than that to happen.

Picard wrote:You're dumb. Sisko did not use phase cloak, Defiant's cloak is regular one.
Misquote, misinterpretation and direct lie in one. Just when I thought you could not get any "better".

Pity that is not what you said, you did say that he used a Romulan phase cloak.
[spoiler=]The correct answer was either you did not understand the trick question that was used. Or you are truly too dumb to understand the difference.[/spoiler]
Like you always do instead of admitting an honest mistake you stupidly plow ahead and blame others for the mistake. Maybe you should take the time to understand what is being said before you blunder through it and then deny everything.


Picard wrote:Density of nickel is 8.912 g/cm^3. Density of iron is 7.874 g/cm^3. Density of materials used in cobham armor is 2.52, 3.21, ~4, 3.26, 4.52 and 3.52 grams per cubic centimeter. So you are utterly wrong. Or deliberately lying.


No this is again a complete lack of understanding on your part. Asteroids are not "pure" metal a nickel iron core would not be a solid slab of nickel and iron.

The physical composition of asteroids is varied and in most cases poorly understood. Ceres appears to be composed of a rocky core covered by an icy mantle, where Vesta is thought to have a nickel-iron core, olivine mantle, and basaltic crust.[37] 10 Hygiea, however, which appears to have a uniformly primitive composition of carbonaceous chondrite, is thought to be the largest undifferentiated asteroid. Many, perhaps most, of the smaller asteroids are piles of rubble held together loosely by gravity.

It shows here that they are mostly "rock" not metal.


Picard wrote:Never shown in use on Death Star. And particle shields are physical barrier too (just logic), so interphase cloak can be used to bypass them.

But it is used on the Second Death Star. Particle shields are not made of "particles" they are used to repel matter, such as missiles, torpedoes, or ships.


Picard wrote:Beacouse these scales and capabilities are completely made up by your little community.

Considering that the main site provided more proof than you have given about anything you are the one guilty of "making up capabilities". To you the only proof you need to give "It is canon".
There's a great difference between potential and developed power. The one is clearly visible and can be awe-inspiring. The other may take a demigod to recognize.

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Imperial528
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Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Postby Imperial528 » 2010-11-08 11:57am

Picard wrote:"latest developments involve the use of carbon nanotubes to improve toughness even further.[citation needed] Commercially produced or researched ceramics for such type of armour include boron carbide, silicon carbide, aluminium oxide (sapphire or "alumina"), aluminium nitride, titanium boride and Syndie, a synthetic diamond composite. "

Density of nickel is 8.912 g/cm^3. Density of iron is 7.874 g/cm^3. Density of materials used in cobham armor is 2.52, 3.21, ~4, 3.26, 4.52 and 3.52 grams per cubic centimeter. So you are utterly wrong. Or deliberately lying.


Current variants of chobham use depleted uranium (M1) or tungsten (Challenger 2) along with the standard ceramic and wire mesh. Ironically, this is stated on the same Wikipedia page you quoted. So, not only are you ignoring evidence, you're cherry-picking your own sources.


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