Trek Fleet counts

[Kythnos]

phase cloak effected by light? The data contradicts itself.

Where do you get any contradictory evidence for this? Everything I have seen says it does. They can see in both states so both the retina absorbs light and they reflect it. Most importantly is that they see both people who are not phased and light from normal sources showing light does not need to be phased to hit/react to phased matter.

The fact that they are not seen by others simply means the "cloak" portion of the device is working. As to how it works is questionable, I could be wrong about this, but the device was said to be both devices implying that the cloak was needed for phased matter to be "invisible". Again this is not bending light around them as they are effected by light, but it works as we see and we can see the limitations of it as well.

[fallendragon]

"You could argue that it doesn't escape in which case you could simply fill the cloaking bubble with light and blind, cook everything with energy."

This is what I was referanceing with respect to that effected by light bit. You are right I should have made it more clear, my bad. However if the above was true then why did neither Ro, nor Gordie mention it?

[dworkin]

I looks like he wasnt directly talking about a fish but some joke on the holodeck, the actual statement is about 2/3 down.

I cannot believe I just scanned "The Outrageous Okona" to confirm this. You all now by rights owe 10 years in Purgatory were it not shut down.

Anyways Data is techically correct. A (briefcase looking like a) fish on land is amphibious. It can be termed 'amphibian' in the technical sense if not the taxonomic one. A pun. Arrgh, arghh, Data is a terrible comic, but we knew that.

I'm off to purge my brain of that horrible episode.

[Collossus]

the best way to do that is watch ST5. you wont be thinking about that episode afterward...... trust me.

[Picard]

What the rebels used to fly into the hearth of the second Death Star was a shaft (or not even that, they didn't fly in a straight line) that was there because the damn thing was not yet FINISHED. It's likely that it was deliberately left there to lure the rebels into the trap set for them.

And what was advantage of having that thing left open? For Imperials, I mean. They already had Rebels right where they wanted them.

You have NO EVIDENCE that it was supposed to be a thermal vent.

Death Star I had one. DSII is larger, and supposedly more powerful, so it needs bigger vent.

You are also rejecting logic and evidence whenever (or rather, always) they don't fit your per-conceived notions.

You are an utter failure.

Look who's talking. You deliberately misinterpret G-canon in order to fit it in your perception of Star Wars.

2) it was to remain once construction finished,
that doesn't mean it'll do the Trek side any good as even if we grant all those unfounded assumptions there's no reason it has to be permanently open to space.

Interphase cloak, anybody?

[Vympel]

Death Star I had one. DSII is larger, and supposedly more powerful, so it needs bigger vent.

You are an idiot.

In place of the two-meter (6.5-feet)-wide thermal exhaust port targeted by the Rebels at Yavin 4, the second Death Star possesses millions of millimeter (0.04 inch)-sized heat-dispersion tubes extending over the entire surface, each equipped with emergency baffle mechanisms to block excess-power surges.

Shut the fuck up.

[Picard]

watch from 5:10 to 5:20 the opening is built out from the main surface in a uniform "round" structure but once inside it is anything but, I am guessing this was somehow a service corridor perhaps for small shuttles or freighters to carry supplies directly deep into the structure to aid faster construction. naturally this means it wouldnt be used once the DS2 was completed.

And how Death Star is supposed to function when it is closed? It could be closed by some kind of barricade or something which won't impact effectivness of mechanism too much, but one at DSI was clearly important for operation, so DSII should have something similar.

[Picard]

Death Star I had one. DSII is larger, and supposedly more powerful, so it needs bigger vent.

You are an idiot.

In place of the two-meter (6.5-feet)-wide thermal exhaust port targeted by the Rebels at Yavin 4, the second Death Star possesses millions of millimeter (0.04 inch)-sized heat-dispersion tubes extending over the entire surface, each equipped with emergency baffle mechanisms to block excess-power surges.

Shut the fuck up.

And why that was not put into DSI?

EDIT: Even if it is true...
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Gravimetric_torpedo
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Interphase_cloak
Plus nanotechnology... plus technobabble...

[Serafina]

And what was advantage of having that thing left open? For Imperials, I mean. They already had Rebels right where they wanted them.

What tells you that there was only that one opening in the first place? We saw that about one third of the damn thing was still under construction?
Furthermore, it would be easy to spot if the surface was all closed up, therefore making the rebels abort the attack immediately or never start it in the first place.

Death Star I had one. DSII is larger, and supposedly more powerful, so it needs bigger vent.

Hey, moron:
It told you at least a half a dozen times now: The second Death Star had millions of very small vents, not just one. You are just ignoring that because you are a raving idiot, and your mind can't handle being wrong.
Now stop ignoring canon, fool.

Look who's talking. You deliberately misinterpret G-canon in order to fit it in your perception of Star Wars.

You still don't get the meaning of the word "misinterpret", do you?
There is no misinterpretation here, since there is ZERO evidence in G-canon that says what kind of thermal exhaust port the second Death Star had, or that they used it to fly inside.

And how Death Star is supposed to function when it is closed? It could be closed by some kind of barricade or something which won't impact effectivness of mechanism too much, but one at DSI was clearly important for operation, so DSII should have something similar.

IT WASN'T A THERMAL EXHAUST VENT. You have shown zero evidence that it is, ignored canon that says that it isn't and have entirely stopped addressing arguments. How about stopping your idiocy instead?

Interphase cloak, anybody?

STOP IGNORING ARGUMENTS YOU DON'T LIKE.
You have no evidence that the interphase cloak can even be built again and won't blow the ships up that use it (which it did in ST-canon). You have zero evidence that it can penetrate every material, and you have zero evidence that it will protect against tractor beams or just simple light. And you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that it can penetrate shields.

And why that was not put into DSI?

IT WAS, YOU DAMN FOOL. That quote REFERS DIRECTLY TO IT.
What you CLAIM (with no evidence) to be the thermal exhaust shaft is instead just there because the damn thing was not yet finished. It was not a shaft, it likely wasn't even the only opening.
Damn, you're a thick, damn double fool who can do nothing but idiotic moronities. Evidently, you can't even read, or your brain just shuts down because it can't actually argue, just spout random babble.

[Picard]

You have no evidence that the interphase cloak can even be built again and won't blow the ships up that use it (which it did in ST-canon). You have zero evidence that it can penetrate every material, and you have zero evidence that it will protect against tractor beams or just simple light. And you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that it can penetrate shields.

And you have zero evidence it can't... and since it was built for exactly that purpose, it is reasonable to assume it can penetrate most of materials (and you have zero evidence Star Wars uses some "exotic" materials, like Star Trek). And since we only saw shields of DSI in operation, and fighters were able to pass through unhindered... you have any evidence DSII had different shields?

What tells you that there was only that one opening in the first place? We saw that about one third of the damn thing was still under construction?
Furthermore, it would be easy to spot if the surface was all closed up, therefore making the rebels abort the attack immediately or never start it in the first place.

Easy to spot? With Star Wars sensors? Fail.

You still don't get the meaning of the word "misinterpret", do you?

I do. But you don't.

That quote REFERS DIRECTLY TO IT.

Quote... from EU.

[Kythnos]

(and you have zero evidence Star Wars uses some "exotic" materials).

You do realize the very existence of the Death Star is proof that it is not made out of "Steel" right?? (no I guess you don't)

And since we only saw shields of DSI in operation, and fighters were able to pass through unhindered... you have any evidence DSII had different shields?

Fighters could pass through because the DS1 was using "Ray Sheilds" only. DS2 fixed the mistakes of the first one and did not suffer the defects from DS1.

[fallendragon]

Hey Picard I want you to do me a favor, look up startrek's best material and give me there strenght comparied to steel please?

And what is the Gravimetric torpedo supost to do to Star Wars exactly?

And while Destructionator XIII has made some good arguements about density not being a factor. Gravity is still likely to have an effect, as Ro and Gordie show, as while chemical weapons. I find the arguement for light to be effective also shaky

[Kythnos]

And while Destructionator XIII has made some good arguements about density not being a factor.

In my opinion a good case can be made both for and against density effecting phased matter.
Neither is firm enough to make any kind of solid rule either way.

[fallendragon]

All I ever saw for density being a factor was that one quote by Riker, and where the USS Pegasus was totaled... which isn't enough for me to call that a good arguement after the things Gordie and Ro where able to do.

[Kythnos]

All I ever saw for density being a factor was that one quote by Riker, and where the USS Pegasus was totaled... which isn't enough for me to call that a good arguement after the things Gordie and Ro where able to do.

Well here it is, if you don't mind I am going to copy and paste from Memory Alpha to save me from digging out that episode and watching it repeatedly to get the dialog exactly right.

In fact, the Pegasus was not destroyed but rather drifted in cloaked form until it re-materialized inside asteroid gamma 601 in the Devolin system.

This shows that the Phase device kept the ship in a phased state for a long time, depending how far away from the Devolin system the ship was when it "appeared to blow up". It would have required sometime even if the ship was drifting at warp speed. It should also be noted that space is not a vacuum, so it did pass through matter during its journey and remained phased.

Data speculates that the vessel could have been caught in the asteroid's gravitational field and pulled inside.

Giving additional proof that gravity effects phased matter.

Afterwards, the Pegasus drifted into an asteroid field in the Devolin system while still in a phased state. The cloak blew out the plasma relays aboard the ship, and when it passed through a particularly large asteroid, the cloak failed, causing the Pegasus to partially materialize inside solid rock.

This implies that as the ship began to move through the mass of the asteroid the phase device began to use more power, without anyone alive to provide it, the plasma relays blew out cutting the power to the phase device. Plasma relays are like wiring in your house and used to move power throughout the ship in ST tech, if we carry this analogy further it tripped the breakers on the ship. It should be pointed out that the ship did not run out of power at a convenient time the phase device burned out the circuit it was on.

These facts imply, not prove, that the higher the density the more power needed to phase through it, and yes this works in both directions.(ex 2 objects of high density would require more power to phase through each other than the same size objects with less density) Facts that fit the episode with the crewmen phased well enough, the human body has much less density than the solid walls and therefore required much less power to remain phased. The amount of power need to phase the human body would logically be much less than that need to phase a starship, and it seems that whatever charge they absorbed was enough to keep them in that state through the episode.

[Picard]

Hey Picard I want you to do me a favor, look up startrek's best material and give me there strenght comparied to steel please?

Tritanium. 21.5 times harder than diamond; in 2364 Federation phasers were unable to melt centimeter thick plante of tritanium. It is able to withstand temperatures above 12 000 ° C without showing signs of melting. That is pretty much all we know about tritanium from direct evidence (statements).

It might or might not be "best", but is very widespread in ship and starbase construction.

About best material... probably neutronium (carbon-neutronium alloy, actually)

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Neutronium

but it is not regularly used in starship construction (or anything else - actual use of neutronium is rather sporadic and Federation does not seem to be able to do it).

[fallendragon]

So the best starfleet can actually make is weaker then Durasteel? That is interesting...

[Norade]

Hey Picard I want you to do me a favor, look up startrek's best material and give me there strenght comparied to steel please?

Tritanium. 21.5 times harder than diamond; in 2364 Federation phasers were unable to melt centimeter thick plante of tritanium. It is able to withstand temperatures above 12 000 ° C without showing signs of melting. That is pretty much all we know about tritanium from direct evidence (statements).

It might or might not be "best", but is very widespread in ship and starbase construction.

About best material... probably neutronium (carbon-neutronium alloy, actually)

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Neutronium

but it is not regularly used in starship construction (or anything else - actual use of neutronium is rather sporadic and Federation does not seem to be able to do it).

So you've given us fuck-all about this shit really, being hard and heat resistant is something that we can do today but it ends up being brittle. Actually it would make sense if Starfleet's hulls were pretty weak as the need powered fields to hold the hull together under maneuvering power and they're noted to sag under their own weight in a gravity well. We also see that them making a landing on the planet damages the saucer badly. This in addition to them needing to manually close hatches to facilitate the saucer's ejection. When they do hit the loosely packed dirt and trees, nobody has anyway to strap in, consoles explode as if loaded with fireworks, crew members and children are tossed sometimes meters across the ship, lab equipment falls, windows shatter from contact with simple dirt, parts of the ceiling - some two meters long - rain down upon the crew, and in the final impact even the chairs don't stay bolted to the deck.

Enterprise Crash

This is very unlike the far tougher hulls that survive nearly un-powered landings, with only minimal damage, we see nobody tossed around as they're all strapped in, not a single internal control explodes, in fact the controls still seem to work though the braking flaps and engines they should control are no longer there, and all thsi even though they strike a surface far harder than dirt.

Invisible hand Crash

Though the exact weight of what was left of the Invisible Hand when it crashed is going to be very tough to calculate exactly, we can see that roughly a 500m long section of the ship crashes and that section is roughly a cylinder with a diameter of 150m. If we assume that it is half empty and what is left is only as dense as iron we get a mass of roughly 35 million tons, if we assume that it has reached a terminal velocity of only 55m/s it will hit with a force of 5.247E+13J or 12.5 kilotons of force and the surface of the runway wasn't even damaged though a runway tower was. This says something about the toughness of Star Wars building materials.

[Kythnos]

Tritanium. 21.5 times harder than diamond; in 2364 Federation phasers were unable to melt centimeter thick plante of tritanium. It is able to withstand temperatures above 12 000 ° C without showing signs of melting. That is pretty much all we know about tritanium from direct evidence (statements).

I should point out that the Federation uses a Tritanium Alloy and is therefore mixed with other metals and would not necessarily have the same properties as the original ore. The hardness would be reduced I am sure to make it useful in construction.

[Big Phil]

Jesus... picard is a walking, talking logical fallacy. There's hardly a thing he's written that isn't wrong in at least three ways...

[Norade]

Picard, are you ever going to post that image of the so called vent on the DSII or do I need to use the report button?

[Dalton]

That quote REFERS DIRECTLY TO IT.

Quote... from EU.

You do not get to ignore the rules of Canon on this site. If you persist, you will be summarily banned.

[Serafina]

And you have zero evidence it can't... and since it was built for exactly that purpose, it is reasonable to assume it can penetrate most of materials (and you have zero evidence Star Wars uses some "exotic" materials, like Star Trek). And since we only saw shields of DSI in operation, and fighters were able to pass through unhindered... you have any evidence DSII had different shields?

Yes, i DO have evidence, which you are constantly ignoring. All ships with a phase cloak on board were eventually destroyed by it (excluding the Enterprise, who only used it for a short time). The Klingons, Romulans and the Federation all abandoned their research into it, and we never see it being used by anyone (including the more advanced Borg and Dominion) with anything but prototypes.
So the burden of proof is on YOU to show that they can even build it again, and within a few weeks too.

Furthermore, just because something was "build to do something", it can't necessarily do it under all circumstances. For example, battleship cannons are built do destroy things. That doesn't mean they can destroy everything. Basic logic - just another thing you fail utterly.

And last but not least, you have presented zero evidence that they can penetrate shields with the phase cloak.

Easy to spot? With Star Wars sensors? Fail.

How about simple optical instruments? Oh, right, ST sensors failed to detect Datas shuttle in Insurrection, even tough it would have been visible with a simple telescope.

Quote... from EU.

Yes. The EU is canon. The movies make NO STATEMENT whether it is an exhaust vent or not, and they make NO STATEMENT whether it was supposed to be close up or not. Therefore, the movies CAN NOT contradict the EU here (it's by definition to have a contradiction when you have only one source).

[Picard]

All ships with a phase cloak on board were eventually destroyed by it (excluding the Enterprise, who only used it for a short time). The Klingons, Romulans and the Federation all abandoned their research into it, and we never see it being used by anyone (including the more advanced Borg and Dominion) with anything but prototypes.
So the burden of proof is on YOU to show that they can even build it again, and within a few weeks too.

Federation is only one with working Interphase Cloak, and definetly has knowledge to build it. Only reason it's not using it is Treaty of Algeron.

Furthermore, just because something was "build to do something", it can't necessarily do it under all circumstances. For example, battleship cannons are built do destroy things. That doesn't mean they can destroy everything.

No, but they are supposed to destroy other ships, and were quite capable of doing it. Just basic logic.

And last but not least, you have presented zero evidence that they can penetrate shields with the phase cloak.

Shields of Death Star I could be passed throught without any technobabble. Since we never saw shields of DSII in action, it is only thing we can take as evidence.

How about simple optical instruments? Oh, right, ST sensors failed to detect Datas shuttle in Insurrection, even tough it would have been visible with a simple telescope.

...and yet we see them routinely scanning for and detecting ships light years away. In "Silicon Avatar" Enterprise detects "disturbance" on Melana 4 while at warp. It is "27 hours away", which means minimum distance of 27 light hours. They were below warp 8, so I would take maximum distance to be 2 light years (at warp 7, since starships tend to travel at non-decimal warp factors). In "Wounded", effective range of sensors when searching for starship that did not wish to be found was 10 light years. Plus we don't know which stealth systems that shuttle had, and Data did not wish to be found.

Yes. The EU is canon. The movies make NO STATEMENT whether it is an exhaust vent or not, and they make NO STATEMENT whether it was supposed to be close up or not. Therefore, the movies CAN NOT contradict the EU here (it's by definition to have a contradiction when you have only one source).

It is most logical explanation, and fits with visual evidence.

[Serafina]

Federation is only one with working Interphase Cloak, and definetly has knowledge to build it. Only reason it's not using it is Treaty of Algeron.

Bullshit. It was stated that the Klingons had been working on it, and we have an entire episode involving a romulan phase cloak.
See? You DO ignore canon when it doesn't suit your madness. It's not that you dismiss the EU, but you even ignore ST-canon when you have to.
And besides - what makes you think they will immediately ignore the treaty of algeron, even tough they did not do it during the Dominon War, even tough they were allied with the Romulans?
Furthermore, since the cloak and phase-parts of the thing are apparently separate, why didn't they build just the phase-part? Given that it would make their ships virtually invulnerable, any sensible military would go after it no matter what.

No, but they are supposed to destroy other ships, and were quite capable of doing it. Just basic logic.

You fail utterly at logic. Just because something is supposed to do something, it can't automatically do it. Especially when it's still a prototype. That's not even logic, that's just basic common sense.

Shields of Death Star I could be passed throught without any technobabble. Since we never saw shields of DSII in action, it is only thing we can take as evidence.

The Empire is very capable of building shields that stop physical impacts. They can easily equip the second Death Star with them if they want to. That they choose not do do so with the first Death Star is no proof, given that there are many possible reasons not to do it - such as enemy ships (supposedly) being no threat, or the fact that ramming attacks are utterly useless anyway.

...and yet we see them routinely scanning for and detecting ships light years away. In "Silicon Avatar" Enterprise detects "disturbance" on Melana 4 while at warp. It is "27 hours away", which means minimum distance of 27 light hours. They were below warp 8, so I would take maximum distance to be 2 light years (at warp 7, since starships tend to travel at non-decimal warp factors). In "Wounded", effective range of sensors when searching for starship that did not wish to be found was 10 light years. Plus we don't know which stealth systems that shuttle had, and Data did not wish to be found.

Moron. The (tangential) point was that ST-sensors are sometimes WORSE than the MK I Eyeball and basic optic instruments.
But nooo, you just went "SW-sensors=suck" without any logic, intelligence or proof behind it.

It is most logical explanation, and fits with visual evidence.

Idiot. You jumped to that conclusion without examining the evidence.
Given that the Death Star is not yet finished, there is a very simple explanation for those holes. Given that it is NOT a shaft, concluding that it IS a shaft is moronic.

For you, a "contradiction" is apparently "everything i claim G-canon says can override anything i want", even when it's just one of your delusions!
Repeat after me: Picard has zero evidence that the DS II had a large thermal exhaust shaft. Picard has zero evidence that the DS II had a large thermal exhaust shaft. Picard has zero evidence that the DS II had a large thermal exhaust shaft.
If you HAVE such evidence, present it. However, the film never states what it was. The film shows that it was not a straight shaft, but rather a meddled assembly of open ways inside the Death Star.


Repeating your claims doesn't make them true. Ignoring your opponents arguments makes you an idiot. Ignoring evidence makes you a liar.
You are all of the above.