ST vs. SW computational power.

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ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Enigma »

I need some evidence of SW having greater or superior computing power than the ones used in ST. On another board they are saying that ST has computational power because of bio gel packs, Data, universal translator and this quote from one of the members there:
Well, this is sort of all over the place.

In terms of computational power, the ST universe is clear ahead, which was the question, not which one has more artificial life. Because as we saw, your average Data or hell, EMH is far more intelligent and knowledgable than just about any droid we've seen. Can C3PO translates millions of languages? Sure. But that's all he's really good for.

Data on the other hand, is a literal walking dictionary and is capable of running multiple things in his head at once, is capable of heavily modifying weapons, is capable of building complicated structures at blurred speed, is capable of performing android-brain surgery with such speeds that an admiral had trouble keeping up with them, putting in a fairly lengthy code, and multiple other things. That's not even metioning his extensive knowledge in science, engineering, philisophy, history, and culture. C3PO in comparison...is a third rate android.

And it's not just Data; Lore was also intelligent, just an evil douche. B-4 was less intelligent, but still capable of sleeper agent methods and has the excuse of being a prototype. Even going farther than that, the EMH was capable of becoming his own person and had the vast majority of Federation medical knowledge in his database. He was also capable of thinking for himself and improvising as tme went on, as well as learning opera and wrote his own book. Compare that to an SW medical droid, which...probably not so much. Or again, C3PO, whose limited to his programming to a very extreme degree.

And of course, the doctor in Voyager was a Mark I and had already been replaced by a Mark II before the series was even over. What did Starfleet do with all the holograms with the most intelligent medical minds ever created? They put them to work shoveling trash.

It's also worth noting that the Federation has had the ability to create intelligent computers for some time--it was done by Doctor Daystrom; he created a computer based off his own mind. While it was a failure due to his own personal problems being reflected by the computer, we clearly see that the capability for intelligence is already in Starfleet technology. Fuck, Wesley accidently created an intelligent hologram because he asked the computer to boost the difficulty setting to Data's level. And that hologram later made another hologram sentient (a bit debatable given that she seemed rather easily led in the episode). And that's not even considering the Voyager episodes with semi-intelligent life.

All doable from the holodeck. So to claim that Trek is incapable of creating sentient life is rather foolhardy. One woman even created intelligent repair droids. It seems to me that those with positronic brains are really the ones that are difficult to create, not so much artificial life. And then again, we see that creating a positronic brain and getting it to work isn't the problem in terms of complexity, but so much as it is that positronic brains have a high degrading problem that means they have a life span ranging about a week; DR. Soong himself ran through a dozen or so of them, according to his android wife.

It's also worth noting that even the most intelligent droids in SW are also rather stupid. Mass produced B1s are as dumb as dirt, B2s aren't much better, Droidkedas are rather battle oriented, Spider droids and their line are just like the last, and Commando Droids theemselves are the only ones that appear remotedly competent and cost a shit load of money--and they're not even close in terms of combat capability or intelligence as Data is either, given that clones can still beat them in hand to hand combat.

Now, back to the terms of computational power, a Galaxy class starship is capable of holding the minds of billions of people; ie, an entire planet's worth while still having enough memory for basic life support and minimal operation (ie, no antimatter breach or some such). We also know that Voyager's shuttle from Threshold (shudder) every centimeter within their sector--which just to tell you, sectors require a day for the Enterprise D to scan and it can scan up to 10 LY at a time--so at least about 10 light years. It's also worth mentioning that said sensors were able to retrieve these scans at not only faster than light velocities, but infinite velocities (or near infinite more probably...somehow...never made much sense). This was then just dumped into Voyager, which already had a shit load of information on it--including a file on Seven and her family--three nobody scientists that vanished decades ago, not to mention the shit load of memory that's required for the holodecks to run to the point that each hologram looks like the real, authentic thing and even acts like it, as well as reacts.

Star Wars? They've got nothing that even comes close to that sort of memory or computational capabilities. And despite the several security breaches in Starfleet, they do seem more protected than the casual Star Wars consol, where any enemy can just sneak aboard the bridge, reset the navicomp and not even apparently requiring a password.

At least it's still better than Dalek Security, where you leave your genuis enemy who has escaped in all his tight jams throughout your species entire history in the same room as the unlocked consol that controls every Dalek in existence...despite the fact that all Daleks are extremists to begin with, so no sort of device is even required...
I've been trying to show SW superiority from one example of SW droids superior to ST but they think that one off AIs like Data (well Data, Lore and B4) shows that ST is superior.

In other words, how is SW superior to ST in computing power and technology?
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Srelex »

Cite that while Data apparently cannot be reproduced, in SW, even common maintenance droids like R2-D2 have powerful enough programming to gain sentience. Hell, sentient droids were nothing to raise eyebrows over even in the KOTOR era. And sentience for robotics requires quite a lot of processing power and code behind that. So that's for starters.

Oh, and the Jedi archives. Given the size of the SW galaxy, there's going to be a lot of info stored in there.
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Darth Hoth »

First, request that he please cite his sources clearly. Nothing is more annoying than having to trawl through mounds of material just to be able to check your opponent's claims.

Now, technical data:

In Star Wars, R2-D2 is capable of storing the complete plans for the Death Star-I. Of course, this is difficult to quantify, but for a lower limit we can perhaps make a comparison with the plans for buildings today. Which, if I recall the numbers from back when this was last debated correctly, requires a stupendously huge memory. There were also some speculative calcs on the computers required to rapidly analyse those plans, which ended up with frankly obscene results; search for the long "Orion's Arm" thread in SLAM.

The Rogue Squadron books mention computers with many "trillions of exabytes" of data storage. In Children of the Jedi, uploading of human memories into an android body is possible (although it could not simulate emotions). Later on (in the NJO) full cyberpunk-wank "uploading" of human personalities is in limited use (apparently still experimental); the Prime Minister of Bakura uses it, among others.

In the galactic economy, 'droids have long since replaced most or all unskilled labour and some skilled, per the Dark Empire Sourcebook. Somewhat more common than Data . . . Human replica 'droids (i.e., robots that appear human in form and behaviour) are, of course, also old news. (Xizor's girlfriend was one.)

Oh, and the Trekkie is an utter idiot who thinks that six million languages are no big deal to be able to store and use competently.


For Star Trek, Data gives his specifications in "The Measure of a Man":
RIKER: Thank you. Data, what is the capacity of your memory, and how fast can you process information?

DATA: I have an ultimate storage capacity of eight hundred quadrillion bits. My total linear computational speed has been rated at sixty trillion operations per second.
Which are impressive by early 21st-century standards, but not those of the Empire.
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Teleros »

1. Universal translators will only get you so far given that not all alien species will be communicating mostly by sound. That's where protocol droids come in, because having arms and such to wave about makes it easier if you come across that silly species Janeway was trading with once (I forget the details, sorry). If you want something smaller, Wookiepedia mentions the PUT. You don't have to rely on the ship / station you're on either to help with number crunching (as in that DS9 episode) - just pop in the relevant sector's data and off you go. In the event that you do come across unknown languages though, there are translation tools out there as well, although your best bet is probably still just to take a protocol droid along.

2. In terms of droids, C3PO and R2D2 are just much more specialised than Data... which is what one would expect from a civilisation where AIs are much more common. Droids with the flexibility of someone like Data were hardly unheard of, just not commonly employed... but then you wouldn't use a supercomputer to play Pac-Man either. Remember also that droids do suffer from discrimination in SW (remember Obi-Wan Kenobi in that 50's diner?). Remember too that there are various "human replica droids" etc, according to the SW wiki.

3. Star Trek has so far failed spectularly when it comes to duplicating Data / Lore / B-4, for example with their M5 computer going nuts and so on. In contrast, SW droids accidentally gain sapience all the time if C3PO and R2D2 are considered.

4. Star Wars navi-computers meanwhile must be able to quickly access a colossal amount of data and do computations based on it, given how you don't want to bounce off supernovas when in hyperspace. I believe one of the other forums here (SW or SW v ST) had some rough numbers on the sort of computing capabilities required. Also the Jedi Archives.

5. As for computer security, I don't know much about the EU, but it's hard to say in the EU quite how good it is, given we're often dealing with already-sapient droids like R2D2 hacking. As intelligence seems to be bestowed accidentally to droids mostly as a result of experience, it's also likely that R2D2 knows more than a few tricks other astromech droids wouldn't be expected to know.

As to that poster's arguments...
In terms of computational power, the ST universe is clear ahead, which was the question, not which one has more artificial life. Because as we saw, your average Data or hell, EMH is far more intelligent and knowledgable than just about any droid we've seen. Can C3PO translates millions of languages? Sure. But that's all he's really good for.
Irrelevant. If your computers are powerful enough, you can make do with less than top quality for specialised roles. Still, C3PO was hardly emotionless or incapable of doing other feats. Also of course, intelligence =/= being able to do lots of unrelated stuff. Data is a jack of all trades, master of none (well, some perhaps).
Data on the other hand, is a literal walking dictionary and is capable of running multiple things in his head at once, is capable of heavily modifying weapons, is capable of building complicated structures at blurred speed, is capable of performing android-brain surgery with such speeds that an admiral had trouble keeping up with them, putting in a fairly lengthy code, and multiple other things. That's not even metioning his extensive knowledge in science, engineering, philisophy, history, and culture. C3PO in comparison...is a third rate android.
Funny how this guy doesn't mention R2D2, or remember that C3PO was built by a child slave on a third-rate planet in his free time. To help his mother around the house in fact - the translation bit was just an added bonus (and perhaps useful in dealing with customers). Astromech droids like R2D2 have done everything from repair droids, to starships, help pilot fighters, kill SBDs on Grievous' flagship, work undercover (Jabba's palace / barge, finding Obi-Wan Kenobi on Tatooine), and all that's just from the movies.
Data meanwhile is a jack of all trades, master of none, which you would expect from a more human-like droid built by in a society where such things are ridiculously rare. In SW, droids are so common they tend to go in more for the specialised types.
This point also of course ignores the fact that you could quite easily give C3PO extensive knowledge in whatever fields you liked just by downloading it into his hard drive or whatever. It's just that C3PO isn't used for that and, perhaps due to being a more specialised droid in general, doesn't seem to have much interest in becoming a human like Data.
And it's not just Data; Lore was also intelligent, just an evil douche. B-4 was less intelligent, but still capable of sleeper agent methods and has the excuse of being a prototype. Even going farther than that, the EMH was capable of becoming his own person and had the vast majority of Federation medical knowledge in his database. He was also capable of thinking for himself and improvising as tme went on, as well as learning opera and wrote his own book. Compare that to an SW medical droid, which...probably not so much. Or again, C3PO, whose limited to his programming to a very extreme degree.
Again, specialised roles. Of course, SW medical droids also require a hell of a lot more information on the various species of their galaxy, which is conveniently ignored.
And of course, the doctor in Voyager was a Mark I and had already been replaced by a Mark II before the series was even over. What did Starfleet do with all the holograms with the most intelligent medical minds ever created? They put them to work shoveling trash.
Irrelevant on all counts.
It's also worth noting that the Federation has had the ability to create intelligent computers for some time--it was done by Doctor Daystrom; he created a computer based off his own mind. While it was a failure due to his own personal problems being reflected by the computer, we clearly see that the capability for intelligence is already in Starfleet technology. Fuck, Wesley accidently created an intelligent hologram because he asked the computer to boost the difficulty setting to Data's level. And that hologram later made another hologram sentient (a bit debatable given that she seemed rather easily led in the episode). And that's not even considering the Voyager episodes with semi-intelligent life.
However, ST is clearly not swimming in artificial life to the same extent as SW, where slave families on backwater worlds can get a protocol droid and all that.
Now, back to the terms of computational power, a Galaxy class starship is capable of holding the minds of billions of people; ie, an entire planet's worth while still having enough memory for basic life support and minimal operation (ie, no antimatter breach or some such). We also know that Voyager's shuttle from Threshold (shudder) every centimeter within their sector--which just to tell you, sectors require a day for the Enterprise D to scan and it can scan up to 10 LY at a time--so at least about 10 light years. It's also worth mentioning that said sensors were able to retrieve these scans at not only faster than light velocities, but infinite velocities (or near infinite more probably...somehow...never made much sense). This was then just dumped into Voyager, which already had a shit load of information on it--including a file on Seven and her family--three nobody scientists that vanished decades ago, not to mention the shit load of memory that's required for the holodecks to run to the point that each hologram looks like the real, authentic thing and even acts like it, as well as reacts.
All this is irrelevant with regards to computational power. It is relevant rather to computer storage capacity and sensors.
Star Wars? They've got nothing that even comes close to that sort of memory or computational capabilities.
Navi-computers & the Jedi Archives, just to start with.
And despite the several security breaches in Starfleet, they do seem more protected than the casual Star Wars consol, where any enemy can just sneak aboard the bridge, reset the navicomp and not even apparently requiring a password.

At least it's still better than Dalek Security, where you leave your genuis enemy who has escaped in all his tight jams throughout your species entire history in the same room as the unlocked consol that controls every Dalek in existence...despite the fact that all Daleks are extremists to begin with, so no sort of device is even required...
Irrelevant, related to computer security not computational power or even prevalence of artificial life / intelligence.
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Serafina »

Every instance where security is breached easily is one where physical security could be expected to do the job (on bord the Death Star, various Imperial ships etc.).
Since boarding actions are not common in SW, computer security is not all that imporant aboard starships.

Also, note that R2 never actually breaches imporant security in the canon films and was not expected to do so.
Otherwise, Obi-Wan would just have told him to remotely shut down the tractor beam. All he did was getting a map and a list of prisoners and shutting down a garbage disposer.

Generally, specialists require more knowledge than generalists - nearly everyone with a good education knows that from personal experience.
Also, Data makes errors all the time - even mathematical ones (!) and errors of basic knowledge (classifiny fish as amphibians or something like that). This is propably due to him being built to mimic human personality, which clearly hampers his utility. Meanwhile, while SW-droids can become sentient, there are not purpose-built to do so (with the exceptions of protocol droids and human replica droids for obvious reasons).
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Solauren »

Darth Hoth wrote: For Star Trek, Data gives his specifications in "The Measure of a Man":
RIKER: Thank you. Data, what is the capacity of your memory, and how fast can you process information?

DATA: I have an ultimate storage capacity of eight hundred quadrillion bits. My total linear computational speed has been rated at sixty trillion operations per second.
Which are impressive by early 21st-century standards, but not those of the Empire.
Ha! It's not even impressive by our standards.

8 Bits = 1 Byte

Doing some simple math;
Data has a 800 Exabyte Hard Drive, and has a 60 Teraflops raiting (Floating Points per second.)

A Cray XT5 (modern supercomputer) does has a 1.3 Petaflops rating. (The most recent upgrade put it at 1.75 Petaflops)

Sorry, Data is NOT that impressive.

He's a walking version of a modern supercomputer, nothing more.
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Darth Hoth »

Oh, I know that the raw specs can be matched by our present-day technology. I daresay it is still quite impressive by our standards to cram all that memory and processing power into the volume of a human skull, even if it is nothing much to the Empire. :P

By the way, should it not be petabytes at quadrillions?
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Solauren »

Darth Hoth wrote:Oh, I know that the raw specs can be matched by our present-day technology. I daresay it is still quite impressive by our standards to cram all that memory and processing power into the volume of a human skull, even if it is nothing much to the Empire. :P

By the way, should it not be petabytes at quadrillions?
Not according to the chart I used.

However, I fully admit the chart could be in error.
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Balrog »

The following comes from the second of the Medstar books:
Page 187 wrote:There was a slight but unmistakeable hint of snobbery in I-Five's voce as he answered. "I have a SyntheTech AA-One nanoprocessor, operating at seven petahertz, with a five-exabyte capacity. I wrote the program just after I mentioned it to you. It took me six-point-one nanoseconds to encode the basic algorithm and calculate its functional parameters."
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Balrog »

And there's this about Imperial computer security from the Death Star novel:
Pg 164 wrote:In addition to the best military wards and pyrowalls, the folder was also protected by a random number generated by a quantum computer, said number being forty-seven digits long. Moreover, the program would shift each digit one value lower or higher every six standard hours, and only somebody with the code to access the program running it could keep track of this shift - one had to know the date and hour the program generated the number in order to follow the sequence.
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Omeganian »

Data was specially designed to be as human as possible, yet required a long time to develop a distinct personality with emotions (weren't there also some modifications?). SW droids, without any effort from their designers, develop all that if not given "frequent" memory wipes. Also, how did that quote of Isaac Asimov go?

My initial mistake was to suppose that you are a less complicated and more primitive robot than Daneel is, simply because you look less human. A human being will always suppose that... the difficulty in designing Daneel lies in reproducing all the human aspects such as facial expression, intonation of voice, gestures and movements that are extraordinarily intricate but have nothing really to do with complexity of mind.

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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by JGregory32 »

Actually if we look at the ST Ai's they all seem rather limited. M-5 could pilot a starship but that was it, it could not distinguish between a harmless barge and a dangerous opponent. The androids in Mudd's world could not withstand a simple logic puzzle.
Data makes many, many simple errors as has been mentioned before. The Doctor could not prevent his own program from overwriting itself and required the grafting on of a much larger matrix to survive. He also basically froze when confronted with two patients with identical wounds and possibility of survival. Unable to reconcile the fact that he saved the one he knew better the Voyager staff had to wipe his memory of the event until they could deal with it later.

Contrast this with the Wars setting where we have a Droid bounty hunter, a extremely complex activity. There's also precedent for advanced AI in the Wars setting for thousands of years. KOTOR I and II had assassin droids like HK-47 who used complicated measures to kill their targets. Then there's GO-TO, a droid who controlled a major crime family and orchestrated galactic politics. Then there was the Czerka droid who convinced another droid to go rogue and fight his current owners through dialogue options rather than direct programing.
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by Night_stalker »

Yeah, plus consider how easily the Enterprise's computers keep getting hacked in almost nearly EVERY episode. Who gives them their anti-viral software?
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by takemeout_totheblack »

Solauren wrote: Not according to the chart I used.

However, I fully admit the chart could be in error.
Do you have a link to this chart?

To get a computer as powerful as C3P0 to fit into a human head sized object, would require molecular or even atomic circuitry (where single atoms and molecules are arranged into a sort of hard drive, allowing ridiculous amounts of info storage capacity) considering how powerful and small such a computers could be, C3P0s abilities are quite mundane, as evidenced by the obviously mass produced protocol design. In fact they could probably get a hard drive capable of storing zettabytes of info while only being the size of a pea!
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Re: ST vs. SW computational power.

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Well, this is sort of all over the place.

In terms of computational power, the ST universe is clear ahead, which was the question, not which one has more artificial life. Because as we saw, your average Data or hell, EMH is far more intelligent and knowledgable than just about any droid we've seen. Can C3PO translates millions of languages? Sure. But that's all he's really good for.
Clearly, the poster in question has never . . . you know, actually seen the damned movies. In the prequels, C3PO is trusted to pilot a starship across galactic distances. In the original trilogy, Han Solo believed (and rightly so,) that C3PO could interface with the Falcon's hyperdrive control computers and diagnose them (the same hyperdrive computers expected to safely deliver a ship to its destination at many, many thousands of times the speed of light. In ROTJ, he works out how to communicate with the Ewoks based purely on extrapolating from similarities to languages he already knows.

That is an extremely non-trivial computational feat. It would require the ability to simulate an Ewok's mental state (at least, on a basic level,) to generate communications context appropriate to a species of Stone Age arboreal teddy-bears. It certainly requires the ability to analyze and simulate Ewok vocalization (given that an Ewok, being a short, squat bear-like creature, cannot be assumed to have the same vocal apparatus as, say, Luke Skywalker.)

Which means he has a sense of empathy. And a grasp of what emotions mean. So even though he's not built to be as physically flexible as Data, he could almost certainly tie Data in knots in a computational sense.
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