A Little Debating Help

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doan_m
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A Little Debating Help

Post by doan_m »

All right. I'm relatively new to debating versus Trekkies, so I think i'm going to need some help here : (
I'm in the middle of your standard Trek vs. Star Wars debate with some board member on another forum. Now already the guy asserted something that I would consider suspicious and potentially out right wrong so I'm going to need some verification (google searches bring up jack all) if thats all right. The claim was this:

We take it from there. The Borg have far greater numbers....Stated as "billions of vessels containing trillions of drones" which is just the central nexus and doesn't include borg vessels outwith that small area.

So potentiall hundreds of trillions of drones and hundreds of billions of ships. Compare that with what's known about SW.
He even goes on to claim that there isn't even 1000 star destroyers in the galactic empire as crazy as it is. While I do know that this is outright wrong, i'd rather debunk it with verifiable evidence instead of just deriving what i remember from memory.

Oh yeah, I understand that it's been apparently slow here for two years, so if you wish, the person in question can be found here.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f88/t519709.html
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Darth Wong »

So? Coruscant alone has billions of vessels and trillions of people. Not all of those vessels are capital warships (most of them would be civilian transports), but no one said all Borg vessels are full-sized cubes either. Moreover, the person should provide a full quote in context with source, not just a half-assed sentence fragment. Dialogue from "Scorpion" suggests the opposite: that losses of relatively insignificant magnitude can cripple the Borg Collective and drive them toward defeat. Not to mention the obvious question of why the Borg could never spare more than a single cube at a time to attack Earth, if they had such extravagant resources. They might argue that they didn't care, but if they didn't care, then why attack Earth at all, bypassing so many other viable systems along the way?

PS. None of this changes the fact that a solar flare can take out a Borg cube with a touch, or that the Borg never demonstrated an ability to build anything remotely as impressive as a Death Star.
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Ted C »

Might I recommend consulting the SDN Canon Database? Here's the link to the results of a search for The Borg...

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Ted C »

Specifically, you may be interested in this exchange from VOY "Scorpion" (part 1):
JANEWAY: I understand the risk, and I'm not proposing that we try to change the nature of the beast. But this is a unique situation. To our knowledge, the Borg have never been threatened. They're vulnerable. I think we can take advantage of that.

CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We'd be facing thousands of systems. Millions of vessels.
As Mike notes in the database analysis, Chakotay has no way of knowing how many Borg vessels actually exist. At the Borg planet that Voyager visited, there were only a dozen or so Borg cubes in sight. Also, the damage report from a major S8472 offensive listed 8 planets, 312 ships, and about 4 million drones lost. That's an average of about 40 ships and a half-million drones per planet.

It sounds much more like they have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of ships; not "billions". Your opponent is obviously pulling numbers out of his ass.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Batman »

'Less than a thousand Star Destroyers'. I wonder what source he's basing that on given the lowest CANON number I know is 25,000 and most people consider this to be preposterously low given the Empire effortlessly produced a couple billion ISDs worth in a matter of months. In secret. When they built the DS2.
But what IF the Borg have billions of ships and trillions of drones? Since there's jack all a Borg ship can do to an ISD while chances are a Corellian Corvette can one-shot a Borg cube this is going to help them how? Borg cubes that can be taken down by maybe-MT AQ weapons vs 200GT per battery on a clone wars era troop transport. Case closed.
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by DrStrangelove »

Batman wrote:'Less than a thousand Star Destroyers'. I wonder what source he's basing that on given the lowest CANON number I know is 25,000 and most people consider this to be preposterously low given the Empire effortlessly produced a couple billion ISDs worth in a matter of months. In secret. When they built the DS2.
But what IF the Borg have billions of ships and trillions of drones? Since there's jack all a Borg ship can do to an ISD while chances are a Corellian Corvette can one-shot a Borg cube this is going to help them how? Borg cubes that can be taken down by maybe-MT AQ weapons vs 200GT per battery on a clone wars era troop transport. Case closed.
I read the threads he was talking about. The guy he's debating against uses RSA's site as a reference, and dismisses anything from here because its "biased".
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Batman »

Then there's really no point in trying to debate this guy any further to begin with.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Darth Wong »

Obviously, someone who does that is just a dishonest twat.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by doan_m »

Batman wrote:Then there's really no point in trying to debate this guy any further to begin with.
Well true as that may be, I am new to debating with Trekkies, so I think its best for me to experience first hand the kind of crazy I should be expecting with these kind of people.
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Batman »

doan_m wrote:
Batman wrote:Then there's really no point in trying to debate this guy any further to begin with.
Well true as that may be, I am new to debating with Trekkies, so I think its best for me to experience first hand the kind of crazy I should be expecting with these kind of people.
On your own head be it.
1. As mentioned, maybe-MT AQ weapons that can take down a Borg cube vs 200GT MTLs on a Clone Wars era troop transport. Which is officially canon so 'SDN is biased' doesn't figure into it, nevermind the fact that that's several orders of magnitude LESS than what you get from downscaling from the first Death Star.
2. Hyperdrive is double digit million c. Warp drive is-not. Transwarp not only isn't either but apparently requires preconstructed transwarp conduits to begin with. Again, working from official canon.
3. Actually I'm out of ideas for the time being. :oops:
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by doan_m »

From the thread.
And?

When the Deathstar fired on Alderan(?), it didn't destroy the planet, despite the planet going boom? Okay.

Tech Vs Tech point still stands.

Well holy crap! That's a new level of stupid!

EDIT: Disregard this, the guy misread my post apparently. >_>
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by doan_m »

Hmm... a few questions:
1. Have the Borg and the Breen actually been able to teleport themselves through shields?

2. Also, can a stormtroopers helmet detect cloaked units?
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Batman »

I didn't know the Breen could teleport period. As I understood it their main advantage over the AQ forces was the AQ shield circumventing (except for the Klingons, for some reason) weapons.
As for the Borg, not that I know of. If memory serves even with the frequency-vulnerable comparalby pitiful AQ shields they always need to get rid of those before being able to beam in or out.
And 'cloaked' is a pretty vague term. Can a stormtrooper detect a cloaked Klingon BoP/Romulan Warbird? Highly unlikely. Can he detect a cloaked Jem'Haddar? That depends on how those individual cloaks work (I honestly don't remember). If it's a visual cloak only, yes they can (stormtrooper helmet vision includes IR) but as I said, I don't remember how exactly those cloaks worked.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Stark »

Being able to teleport through 'shields' is pretty meaningless in vs, since it's generally an attempt to say 'omg can beam bomb into ISD' which uses totally different shielding (and has exotic armour, etc).
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Batman »

Especially as the Borg apparently CAN'T do it even with Star Trek AQ shielding, which was sort of my point :D
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by doan_m »

Batman wrote:And 'cloaked' is a pretty vague term. Can a stormtrooper detect a cloaked Klingon BoP/Romulan Warbird? Highly unlikely. Can he detect a cloaked Jem'Haddar? That depends on how those individual cloaks work (I honestly don't remember). If it's a visual cloak only, yes they can (stormtrooper helmet vision includes IR) but as I said, I don't remember how exactly those cloaks worked.
I am referring to Jem'Haddar soldiers. I researched some stuff out of the database, and apparently a "flashlight" of the right spectrum could make a cloaked Jem'Haddar visible. IIRC, the helmets of the stormtroopers has the ability to see through a wide spectrum correct?

Also, what does AQ stand for?
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Batman »

AQ=Alpha Quadrant, the section of the galaxy most of the Trek main powers are located in (you know, UFP, Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians etc)
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Just a nitpick, but I thought the Klingons and Romulans were primarily Beta Quadrant. Though I can't recall where I heard it, so maybe it was false.
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Azron_Stoma »

Romulans are mostly in the Beta quadrant, but they border and have territory in the Alpha, and have been dealing mostly with the Federation and Klingons (who are also in the alpha but have some territory in the beta)

oddly enough, out of all the star Trek Quadrants, the Beta Quadrant is the least talked about, with the Romulans being the only well known power there,

Star Trek "Known Space" isn't much more than a mere oversector (10kx10k lightyears) bordering the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, so talking about the "Fate of the Alpha Quadrant" being decided by the dominion war is a considerable exaggeration.

there could very well be a greater power off in the corner of the Alpha and Beta quadrants that no known major trek power knows about, or at least as anything more than a top secret Section 31, Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar file
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Batman »

Given the (comparatively) low speeds of Warp drive (and the fact that as per ENT, Quo'nos is less than 4 lightyears from Earth) them being in the Alpha Quadrant is pretty much inevitable but I freely admit I'm not sure they're OFFICIALLY located there.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Just a nitpick, but I thought the Klingons and Romulans were primarily Beta Quadrant. Though I can't recall where I heard it, so maybe it was false.
In TNG that was true, but by the time DS9 got going basically all mention of the Beta quadrant evaporated and everything was Alfa quadrant. Earth is actually supposed to be right on the A/B dividing line so the Federation is spread through both quadrants. Frankly though a whole lot of Star Trek geography doesn’t really work, like just how the Klingon were able to attack the Cardassians who are supposedly on the opposite side of the Federation. Potentially they could have used that often ignored third dimension to go ‘over’ or ‘below’ Federation space to do it, but if the ships have the endurance and speed to do so then the concept of those often violated neutral zones doesn’t make much sense either.
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Azron_Stoma »

in most of the maps I've seen, the Klingon empire is north of the Federation while the Romulans are to the east, and the Cardassians to the West.

since most maps have the Federation at the bottom of the map of the milky way. where the mid rim would be, in fact, most trek powers seem to be congregated along the mid rim/outer rim of the milky way galaxy.

I like to use both the Trek Quadrant and Wars Rim systems together to describe galactic locations, as well as things like north, south, east, west, above and below relative to a specific map/galactic disc, rather than things like Coreward, Rimward (which is only relative to the planet's location to the galactic core), Spinward, Anti-Spinward

they have a grid of 10kx10k ly squares on some of them, for which i use the wars term oversector and the 20x20 ly smaller grid which trek call sectors (not sure how large a sector or oversector is in Wars or if the sizes vary like a 40k Segmentum)

funny part is they don't even MENTION Z axis differences in the Trek Atlas terminologies last i checked, figures eh?
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by doan_m »

New claims from the guy:
A low power federation phaser (the small hand units as opposed to the larger, more powerful rifle) can blast through 10 feet of solid rock...Bit more impressive than a few inches of metal
Now normally IIRC, there are many instances of phasers just hitting crates with the impact area going up in light puffs of smoke(thats how i remember most phaser battles anyhow)but still. I am interested as to what exactly the guy is referring to that would make him claim that phasers have such freakish power.

Certainly. In Q-who (next generation) the Borg used transporters that passed straight through the shields of the enterprise. In DS9 episode "the Jem'Hadar" the Dominion had transporters that passed straight through shielding.
Something tells me that the man may potentially be distorting the evidence so i'll run a database search later for both these claims(if the SD.net DB has it, which i believe it should)

There is also this little gem:
You have zero proof of this. We've seen an imperial star destroyer being incapable of destroying the millenium falcon, which is effectively a piece of junk.
and then this:
We've seen areas of ships take direct impacts from turbolasers which have only caused minor explosions in hanger decks etc.
Are you deliberately being obtuse? Shields don't work on weapons that phase out of space/time because the weapons don't exist on the same plane of existence as the shields until they rematerialse at their target. It's not difficult to grasp.
Now this is curious to say the least, the only piece of technology that i can remember that actually does that is the Chronitron torpedo, which i freely admit i'm not entirely familiar with beyond a quick wiki search. Just how does it work exactly?
Again, you have no evidence for what it is about species 8472 weapons that makes the Borg succeptible to them. It may have nothing to do with magnitude(of firepower is what he is refering to). Even if it does, it's quite clear that the magnitude of their weapons far outstrips anything the SW universe has and so they would win on their own.
Raw power is completely ineffective against ablative armour.
Yeah, i'll just leave that for you guys to see.

Also, how am I doing debate wise? I am relatively new but i am willing to improve.
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Ghost Rider »

Well, he's leaving himself wide open...but being he seems to be an obtuse moron correcting him basically only wins the audience.

Phasers versus Blasters : Other then the box example, he's not giving anything(math or otherwise) of what amount of rock, how fast, and other demonstrations of power. It's a rather dishonest tactic because he's just making a large claim and expecting you to demonstrate the proof.

Transporters : Here's a bit of bizarre notion of that they have done this, but other Trek information has shown them to be increasingly testy against rock, minor EM fluctations and other natural phenoma. The largest point of why Mike and others make the claim of "Transporters are fucking useless to simply grab the ISD captain and shove him into space!" is the fact that how easily said devices get screwy around dense material and that it requires the Trekkies to hit upon one hit notions rather then a consistent trend. Thus leading to a great deal of cherry picking.

Turbolasers : We've seen many points of proof of what they can do, and in fact scaling of Imperial weaponry demonstrates that ISD 200GT is a low ball figure of size of reactor and scaling. As for the Falcon incident is bald out distortion. They were to capture said vessel, not pulverize it.

Shields: His technobabble is just to throw one off. He's making several claims and then using "But I want you to figure out what I mean.".

8472: Again...he has to demonstrate this. Simply again making the bold claim of what he did with no proof is again a demonstration that he is merely spewing rhetoric.

Raw Power versus Ablative : Only the yabberings of an uneducated baboon who has the grasp of physics a 12 year old does this statement. An absolute such as that is why debating people like this is more to hone one's edge rather then trying to convince said idiot that he's wrong.

Overall, it's a matter of identifying when he's forcing you to give ground. It can take a bit of a while but they follow certain patterns that one can exploit and ultimately see how far the fool really believes his stupidity.
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Re: A Little Debating Help

Post by Ted C »

doan_m wrote:Hmm... a few questions:
1. Have the Borg and the Breen actually been able to teleport themselves through shields?

2. Also, can a stormtroopers helmet detect cloaked units?
In "Q Who", Borg drones were transported onto the Enterprise despite the shields being up. This problem wasn't seen in "Best of Both Worlds" and later, so they apparently found a way to resolve that problem.
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-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
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