Emergency Backup FTL

[Transbot9]

Going back to the Empire Strikes Back (E.U. fluff may cause issues, but as the movies>EU I think it is fair to ignore when necessary), the Millennium Falcon was able to move from the Hoth system to the Bespin System without usage of a hyperdrive. In real life (yeah, yeah, I know), in order to be a separate system, typically a few light years need to be between the solar systems. While the time frame in the movie is unclear of how long it took to get from Hoth to Bespin sans-hyper, I never got the vibe from watching it that it took years. That leads me to conclude that starships in Star Wars have a back-up Faster-Than-Light drive which is far slower than a hyperdrive but will get ships places in an emergency.

Now, how does this apply to Trek vs. Wars? The only "advantage" that the Federation has is that Warp travel, while extremely slow compared to Hyper (nearly a century to cross a galaxy @ warp 9 vs. a time frame measured in hours via hyper), any Star Wars ship would have to drop out of hyper to engage a retreating ship. By then a warp capable vessel would be at a specific location for such a minuscule amount of time that an IDS wouldn't have a chance to lock on (assuming they found the needle in the haystack to begin with).

Now, my conclusion on the backup drive would come into play. Would an ISD's back-up drive be able to pursue a Star Trek ship through warp? If yes, the backup drive would be able to pursue at whatever speed Warp 9.x is. If no, the backup drive would work at a much slower interstellar speeds. The only possible point of reference to what a backup FTL drive would be able achieve listed in the movies is Han Solo's reference to the Falcon being capable of traveling .5 past light speed (I know, EU defines what that means, but that came out of RPG books as I understand in order to try to make sense of it in context of multi-light year travel).

[Ghost Rider]

Oh why the fuck.

Okay...let's break it down by the numbers.

1. Movies override EU in terms of evidence. One does not ignore the latter because one wants to. It is an illogical discourse given how evidence is considered.

2. Just because you got a gut instinct on something means something means zilch. I have a gut instinct that this is nothing more then yet another useless fucking try. I may be proven wrong, I may be proven right. This however is not objective evidence.

3. Trek ships have lesser sensors package, and less range on weapons. But in the end? Fleeing means nothing to the Wars ship since they will then occupy and conquer that part of space. That and you haven't shown how running like a chicken makes any sort of superior choice.

4. .5 past lightspeed is a useless reference. .5 WHAT? .5 seconds? .5 minutes? .5 years? What measure of time is .5. It was an off the cuff line, and using it as some point of evidence is akin to using Vader's planetary Force destruction as a medium to measure the Force.

[Transbot9]

1. Movies override EU in terms of evidence. One does not ignore the latter because one wants to. It is an illogical discourse given how evidence is considered.

I'm ignoring the latter due to a lack of EU knowledge concerning the distances between Hoth and Bespin and didn't consider it relevant. If you know of some official figures, feel free to post them.

2. Just because you got a gut instinct on something means something means zilch. I have a gut instinct that this is nothing more then yet another useless fucking try. I may be proven wrong, I may be proven right. This however is not objective evidence.

A useless try at what, exactly? I simply thought it was an interesting idea. It's not as if I'm arguing for trek. Again, if you have some official figures, feel free to post them. Otherwise, speculation for or against is just that - speculation.

3. Trek ships have lesser sensors package, and less range on weapons. But in the end? Fleeing means nothing to the Wars ship since they will then occupy and conquer that part of space. That and you haven't shown how running like a chicken makes any sort of superior choice.

Never said otherwise. That is why I put "advantage" in quotes.

4. .5 past lightspeed is a useless reference. .5 WHAT? .5 seconds? .5 minutes? .5 years? What measure of time is .5. It was an off the cuff line, and using it as some point of evidence is akin to using Vader's planetary Force destruction as a medium to measure the Force.

Which is why the post ends with posing the question. Considering that we're dealing with a fictional universe initially created by a guy who just did what he thought would be cool to do, I don't see any harm in such speculations.

[bz249]

Then use the EU material... the Falcon had a small, low power consumption, but slow backup hyperdrive. It was around 10 past light speed (crawling).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Millennium_Falcon

[Transbot9]

But that would ruin the fun

[Darth Wong]

Going back to the Empire Strikes Back (E.U. fluff may cause issues, but as the movies>EU I think it is fair to ignore when necessary), the Millennium Falcon was able to move from the Hoth system to the Bespin System without usage of a hyperdrive. In real life (yeah, yeah, I know), in order to be a separate system, typically a few light years need to be between the solar systems. While the time frame in the movie is unclear of how long it took to get from Hoth to Bespin sans-hyper, I never got the vibe from watching it that it took years. That leads me to conclude that starships in Star Wars have a back-up Faster-Than-Light drive which is far slower than a hyperdrive but will get ships places in an emergency.

That is one possible explanation. It's not the only possible explanation. Another possible explanation is that the Avenger made at least one jump with the Falcon attached to its bridge tower, thus making it easier to reach Bespin. Also, it's possible that the trip did in fact take a year or more, but the crew did not experience so much passage of time due to relativistic time dilation (at velocities approaching c, your perception of time slows down). This would explain why little time seemed to pass from their perspective while Luke had enough time to become a somewhat proficient Jedi on Dagobah.

Now, how does this apply to Trek vs. Wars? The only "advantage" that the Federation has is that Warp travel, while extremely slow compared to Hyper (nearly a century to cross a galaxy @ warp 9 vs. a time frame measured in hours via hyper), any Star Wars ship would have to drop out of hyper to engage a retreating ship. By then a warp capable vessel would be at a specific location for such a minuscule amount of time that an IDS wouldn't have a chance to lock on (assuming they found the needle in the haystack to begin with).

Deep-space battles are unnecessary in Star Wars. Because of their hyperdrive technology (which makes interception extremely unlikely without prior intel about travel routes), they can jump directly into orbit of a planet, so battles seem to invariably take place near planets. I cannot recall of any deep-space battle in Star Wars at all. It's not like Star Trek, where ships routinely intercept one another in deep space. In short, a Star Wars ship is not going to attempt to nab a Star Trek ship in deep space anyway. Star Wars ships jump from one planet to another.

Now, my conclusion on the backup drive would come into play. Would an ISD's back-up drive be able to pursue a Star Trek ship through warp? If yes, the backup drive would be able to pursue at whatever speed Warp 9.x is. If no, the backup drive would work at a much slower interstellar speeds. The only possible point of reference to what a backup FTL drive would be able achieve listed in the movies is Han Solo's reference to the Falcon being capable of traveling .5 past light speed (I know, EU defines what that means, but that came out of RPG books as I understand in order to try to make sense of it in context of multi-light year travel).

The ".5 past light speed" might be just as meaningless as his use of the word "parsecs". One of the most irritating things about the EU is that they completely disregarded the possibility that Han might be just talking out his ass. We're talking about a guy who couldn't even properly maintain his own spacecraft, for fuck's sake. Han Solo is a classic example of the literary device of the complete dumb-ass who stumbles into becoming a hero. Unfortunately, because he's a hero, a whole lot of idiot EU authors decided to make him into some kind of paragon.

[Ghost Rider]

1. Movies override EU in terms of evidence. One does not ignore the latter because one wants to. It is an illogical discourse given how evidence is considered.

I'm ignoring the latter due to a lack of EU knowledge concerning the distances between Hoth and Bespin and didn't consider it relevant. If you know of some official figures, feel free to post them.

Okay...you do understand that you are making the claim thus you have to provide the evidence? Just because you do not want to hunt it, does not mean your opponent provide evidence for your case. If said opponent provides an opposing claim then he/she has to provide evidence supporting his/her case.

2. Just because you got a gut instinct on something means something means zilch. I have a gut instinct that this is nothing more then yet another useless fucking try. I may be proven wrong, I may be proven right. This however is not objective evidence.

A useless try at what, exactly? I simply thought it was an interesting idea. It's not as if I'm arguing for trek. Again, if you have some official figures, feel free to post them. Otherwise, speculation for or against is just that - speculation.

Then why put it in the fucking SWvs ST forum?

Seriously if it's an idea for Wars, another forum is there. If for ST, same thing. Making this into a SwvST topic is either you be willingly ignorant or a liar.

3. Trek ships have lesser sensors package, and less range on weapons. But in the end? Fleeing means nothing to the Wars ship since they will then occupy and conquer that part of space. That and you haven't shown how running like a chicken makes any sort of superior choice.

Never said otherwise. That is why I put "advantage" in quotes.

Thus making your prior statement that this isn't about ST vs SW a bit of lie or stupidity. Take your pick. That and it avoids the point of how is fleeing 100% is an advantage to this particular conflict.

4. .5 past lightspeed is a useless reference. .5 WHAT? .5 seconds? .5 minutes? .5 years? What measure of time is .5. It was an off the cuff line, and using it as some point of evidence is akin to using Vader's planetary Force destruction as a medium to measure the Force.

Which is why the post ends with posing the question. Considering that we're dealing with a fictional universe initially created by a guy who just did what he thought would be cool to do, I don't see any harm in such speculations.

Again, no harm in speculation if presented as such and not as supposition on your part of nebulous claims and no proof beyond your gut. There are far better ways of forming the question then making asinine statements.

[Darth Wong]

1. Movies override EU in terms of evidence. One does not ignore the latter because one wants to. It is an illogical discourse given how evidence is considered.

I'm ignoring the latter due to a lack of EU knowledge concerning the distances between Hoth and Bespin and didn't consider it relevant. If you know of some official figures, feel free to post them.

Okay...you do understand that you are making the claim thus you have to provide the evidence? Just because you do not want to hunt it, does not mean your opponent provide evidence for your case. If said opponent provides an opposing claim then he/she has to provide evidence supporting his/her case.

Do you understand that if the EU explanation is fucking retarded, then it has little standing? Yes, EU has some standing, but that doesn't mean it is immune to criticism. Why rush in to bash this guy for doing exactly the same thing Curtis Saxton did, and dismissing this idiotic idea of a backup hyperdrive because it makes about as much sense as a goddamned dairy farm on the Moon? If the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive, why didn't they use it when trying to flee the Imperials? Why didn't they even mention it?

[Ghost Rider]

Okay...you do understand that you are making the claim thus you have to provide the evidence? Just because you do not want to hunt it, does not mean your opponent provide evidence for your case. If said opponent provides an opposing claim then he/she has to provide evidence supporting his/her case.

Do you understand that if the EU explanation is fucking retarded, then it has little standing? Yes, EU has some standing, but that doesn't mean it is immune to criticism. Why did our rush in to bash this guy for doing exactly the same thing Curtis Saxton did, and dismissing this idiotic idea of a backup hyperdrive because it makes about as much sense as a goddamned dairy farm on the Moon? If the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive, why didn't they use it when trying to flee the Imperials? Why didn't they even mention it?

For me it's not that the EU has a retarded explaination, as they do with loads of things. It's not even finding and demonstrating how absolutely stupid it is, but just go "I can't be arsed to find it, thus let's throw it out.". For this it works but to use it as a point makes a illogical move given that it only works if the said evidence is known by others and dismissed by others because it is an illogical point.

That and more of my bash beyond not actually demonstrating he knows of said evidence and them demonstrates it's retarded with evidence contradictory, is that he places this as a versus question and then wants to back out that it's a point of speculation.

[Darth Wong]

For me it's not that the EU has a retarded explaination, as they do with loads of things. It's not even finding and demonstrating how absolutely stupid it is, but just go "I can't be arsed to find it, thus let's throw it out.". For this it works but to use it as a point makes a illogical move given that it only works if the said evidence is known by others and dismissed by others because it is an illogical point.

I'm still not seeing how this relates to anything he said. He didn't bother quoting the EU but he actually ended up using the EU explanation anyway: a backup hyperdrive. How is it relevant to bash him for making a disparaging remark about the EU? At best, it's a nitpick.

That and more of my bash beyond not actually demonstrating he knows of said evidence and them demonstrates it's retarded with evidence contradictory, is that he places this as a versus question and then wants to back out that it's a point of speculation.

He wasn't even trying to demonstrate that it's retarded. He actually agreed with it. I pointed out that it was retarded, just as a way of showing why so many people dismiss the EU.

You attacked him for throwing out a side statement that you can ignore the EU when "necessary", whatever that means, without bothering to clarify precisely what that was even supposed to mean.

[Ghost Rider]

For me it's not that the EU has a retarded explaination, as they do with loads of things. It's not even finding and demonstrating how absolutely stupid it is, but just go "I can't be arsed to find it, thus let's throw it out.". For this it works but to use it as a point makes a illogical move given that it only works if the said evidence is known by others and dismissed by others because it is an illogical point.

I'm still not seeing how this relates to anything he said. He didn't bother quoting the EU but he actually ended up using the EU explanation anyway: a backup hyperdrive. How is it relevant to bash him for making a disparaging remark about the EU? At best, it's a nitpick.

In that respect I agree that the EU thrust is a nitpick on my part.

That and more of my bash beyond not actually demonstrating he knows of said evidence and them demonstrates it's retarded with evidence contradictory, is that he places this as a versus question and then wants to back out that it's a point of speculation.

He wasn't even trying to demonstrate that it's retarded. He actually agreed with it. I pointed out that it was retarded, just as a way of showing why so many people dismiss the EU.

You attacked him for throwing out a side statement that you can ignore the EU when "necessary", whatever that means, without bothering to clarify precisely what that was even supposed to mean.

In that I should have clarified in that he should've brought up the evidence towards it, and thus my mistake on that particular point.

[Transbot9]

Ah, forums - threads that go to strange, unanticipated places. The original post wasn't meant to be too serious, anyways. My fault for putting in a pseudo-logical construct. Personally, I think EU works decent (for the most part) of filling in the gaps, even though there are things that are a bit nonsensical. If I was concerned with trying to be convincing about how something worked from a canonical or continuity standpoint, I'd use it. Rather, this thread was to explore an idea. From that standpoint I should have worded the original post better. It does make the whole thread silly and moot, but then again, so is any discussion about Scifi.

The basic scenario that brought about this line of thought to begin with is the difficulty of, say, an ISD trying to capture a federation vessel upon first contact. Blowing one up isn't the problem - in fact, the tractor beam on an ISD would probably shred a Feddie vessel by accident. After a few mishaps of trying to capture a vessel, ST ships would probably bolt whenever they see the imperials. Granted, the next best course of action would be to find the nearest habitable planet of an interstellar nation and capture it.

Now, back to quotes within quotes stuff...
Darth Wong:

That is one possible explanation. It's not the only possible explanation. Another possible explanation is that the Avenger made at least one jump with the Falcon attached to its bridge tower, thus making it easier to reach Bespin. Also, it's possible that the trip did in fact take a year or more, but the crew did not experience so much passage of time due to relativistic time dilation (at velocities approaching c, your perception of time slows down). This would explain why little time seemed to pass from their perspective while Luke had enough time to become a somewhat proficient Jedi on Dagobah.

The Avenger jumping: Possible, but that doesn't appear probable due to the hunt for the Falcon taking place in-system.
Time Dilation: Fair enough. It is the best (known) way to travel forward in time. Since it has been insisted that EU info be included, the time line states that the OT took place in, what, about a 5 year time span? I don't have the exact numbers in front of me. With the assumed year or two between movies, I wouldn't think that it would be too much over a year.

Deep-space battles are unnecessary in Star Wars. Because of their hyperdrive technology (which makes interception extremely unlikely without prior intel about travel routes), they can jump directly into orbit of a planet, so battles seem to invariably take place near planets. I cannot recall of any deep-space battle in Star Wars at all. It's not like Star Trek, where ships routinely intercept one another in deep space. In short, a Star Wars ship is not going to attempt to nab a Star Trek ship in deep space anyway. Star Wars ships jump from one planet to another.

I think there are a few deep space battles in the Clone Wars cartoon, mainly involving strategically located space stations. Then again, if a station is far enough away from a planet and the camera isn't pointed at a sun, then it could just be an optical illusion. Not really relevant, though. The Imps may have a reason for capturing a vessel (such as to snag a VIP alive) instead of blasting it. If the emergency drive was equivalent to a standard feddie warp drive, it would come in handy.

Han Solo is a classic example of the literary device of the complete dumb-ass who stumbles into becoming a hero. Unfortunately, because he's a hero, a whole lot of idiot EU authors decided to make him into some kind of paragon.

That's on my list of EU issues, along with how "badass" Boba Fett and the Millennium Falcon are.

Ghost Rider: I hope the clarification I placed earlier in this post is sufficient. I am not trying to back-out of any argument, rather attempting to correct myself on the poorly written first post.

[Ghost Rider]

It puts it better, and to be honest this is moreso a SW question in regards to travel and movies. The ST part is rather unneeded given there is no real tactical advantage of any sort to constant retreat at the first sign of Imperial presense as you presented with your last post.

I'll let it sit here, since the forum is quiet enough and this could provide at least some discussion.

[bz249]

If the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive, why didn't they use it when trying to flee the Imperials?

Maybe because it is too slow to offer any honest chance of escaping? Afterall it is class 10, pedestrian pace.

Remember the scatter screen, the Imperials have some ability to calculate the possible destination. So they arrive there before the Falcon, set up a well prepared trap (Falcon is way too slow on backup) and capture the Falcon.

It is like an emergency wheel, designed for one trip of less than 100km with velocity below 80km/h. Not the best way to flee.

[Ghost Rider]

If the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive, why didn't they use it when trying to flee the Imperials?

Maybe because it is too slow to offer any honest chance of escaping? Afterall it is class 10, pedestrian pace.

Remember the scatter screen, the Imperials have some ability to calculate the possible destination. So they arrive there before the Falcon, set up a well prepared trap (Falcon is way too slow on backup) and capture the Falcon.

It is like an emergency wheel, designed for one trip of less than 100km with velocity below 80km/h. Not the best way to flee.

And before Mike asks, I'll ask.

What is exactly is Class 10? That and how much faster is the whatever the ISD is rated at and what speeds does that go at?

[bz249]

And before Mike asks, I'll ask.

What is exactly is Class 10? That and how much faster is the whatever the ISD is rated at and what speeds does that go at?

Do we need exact power and velocity data to guess that a ship with atmospheric steam engine and paddle wheels is way slower than an other one with superheated steam turbines and screws?

It is said that this stuff is roughly equal to a way outdated model not in use as a main propulsion source for millenia.

[Ghost Rider]

And before Mike asks, I'll ask.

What is exactly is Class 10? That and how much faster is the whatever the ISD is rated at and what speeds does that go at?

Do we need exact power and velocity data to guess that a ship with atmospheric steam engine and paddle wheels is way slower than an other one with superheated steam turbines and screws?

It is said that this stuff is roughly equal to a way outdated model not in use as a main propulsion source for millenia.

If you want to demonstrate what the fuck does Class 10 mean beyond EU code language? Yes.

Seriously 100 Km/s, 1000? 10000? What? Literally you're throwing a number that has as much value as .5 past lightspeed. If you cannot quantify it beyond the code language of the franchise, then it's technobabble. This is no different then the BS that is Transwarp. So what if one is saying ISD Dork Smasher has a Class 1, and the Falcon has a Class 5. What does that mean beyond arbitrary numbers? Might as well go "Falcon is using Blue Hyperdrive, ISD is using Red Hyperdrive.".

[bz249]

If you want to demonstrate what the fuck does Class 10 mean beyond EU code language? Yes.

Seriously 100 Km/s, 1000? 10000? What? Literally you're throwing a number that has as much value as .5 past lightspeed. If you cannot quantify it beyond the code language of the franchise, then it's technobabble. This is no different then the BS that is Transwarp. So what if one is saying ISD Dork Smasher has a Class 1, and the Falcon has a Class 5. What does that mean beyond arbitrary numbers? Might as well go "Falcon is using Blue Hyperdrive, ISD is using Red Hyperdrive.".

Well beyond EU technoblabble, it is a relative classification system (can be linear, exponential, quadratic, arbitrary) where the smaller the number, the faster the ship in hyperspace. Thus class 1 is faster (with a non-negligible amount, otherwise why to have a classification at all) than class 2... etc. Some conclusions can be drawn from such scale systems also. Like having large difference in the numbers implies large difference in velocities.

Does Mohs-scale qualifies as a meaningless technoblabble?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale ... l_hardness

[Isolder74]

The only real info we are given about the rating is that a class 10 takes 10 times as long as a class 1 to get from one point to another. There isn't much else that we are given.

[Batman]

Ignoring for the moment the (likely futile) struggle to get an actual speed range out of game material, so WHAT if the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive? We're talking the Falcon here.
*while they're hiding in what would turn out to be the giant space slug*
Leia:'So would somebody explain to me why we DIDN'T use the backup to run someplace where we could make some REAL repairs?'
*Han and Chewie exchange guilty looks*
Han:'Um-we sort of cannibalized it for parts so we could keep the main hyperdrive going some three weeks ago...'
Yeah, I know, that scene never actually happened. But it WOULD handily and well within the spirit of the OT solve the problem of them taking sufficient time for Luke to get a reasonable grounding in Jedi training in the time it took them to get to Bespin WITHOUT settling Star Wars with ridiculously slow (as in makes Warp look fast) backup hyperdrives.

Given that backup hyperdrives DO exist (and are a concept I don't really have a problem with) my personal preference would have been to simply NOT have ships as small as a YT-1300 have one (the blasted thing is ALREADY bigger on the inside than on the outside ) so they simply don't have room for one (Luke's X-Wing in HTTE sure as hell didn't so it's not like EVERY hyperspace capable craft has one) but alas, the RPGs insist yes, the Falcon has one.
I think that IF we decide to assume the MF has one, my proposition for why they weren't using it works.

[Darth Wong]

The basic scenario that brought about this line of thought to begin with is the difficulty of, say, an ISD trying to capture a federation vessel upon first contact. Blowing one up isn't the problem - in fact, the tractor beam on an ISD would probably shred a Feddie vessel by accident. After a few mishaps of trying to capture a vessel, ST ships would probably bolt whenever they see the imperials. Granted, the next best course of action would be to find the nearest habitable planet of an interstellar nation and capture it.

Why is it so important to capture it anyway? How many vessels were captured by either side during the entire Pacific naval war between the United States and Imperial Japan in World War 2? We're not talking about Pirates of the Caribbean here. Vessel captures were only commonplace during the era when their weapons were not really powerful enough to destroy each other. They could only damage each other, and then swing aboard in an attempt to capture it. Once much more powerful weapons were developed, navies no longer bothered trying to capture each others' ships. You would just try to send it to the bottom of the sea, because even if you crippled it and forced its crew to abandon ship, there was nothing left worth salvaging anyway.

The Avenger jumping: Possible, but that doesn't appear probable due to the hunt for the Falcon taking place in-system.
Time Dilation: Fair enough. It is the best (known) way to travel forward in time. Since it has been insisted that EU info be included, the time line states that the OT took place in, what, about a 5 year time span? I don't have the exact numbers in front of me. With the assumed year or two between movies, I wouldn't think that it would be too much over a year.

Actually, they would not be hunting for the Falcon in-system since they mistakenly believed it hyper-jumped away at the last moment, remember? And yes, it couldn't be many years, but it could be a year or so.

I think there are a few deep space battles in the Clone Wars cartoon, mainly involving strategically located space stations. Then again, if a station is far enough away from a planet and the camera isn't pointed at a sun, then it could just be an optical illusion. Not really relevant, though. The Imps may have a reason for capturing a vessel (such as to snag a VIP alive) instead of blasting it. If the emergency drive was equivalent to a standard feddie warp drive, it would come in handy.

Sure, if it works like Fed warp drive, but there's no reason to assume that, and the easiest way to capture a ship is to shoot out its engines and demand its surrender. We know it's possible to interdict a warp-driven starship from DS9 with "anti-graviton particles", so it would make more sense to capture a starbase or planetary facility where you could force some warp tech to explain things like this, and then develop a device for interdicting warp-driven ships. Deep-space combat still doesn't really make much sense; they're going to fight over star systems, not empty regions of space.

Han Solo is a classic example of the literary device of the complete dumb-ass who stumbles into becoming a hero. Unfortunately, because he's a hero, a whole lot of idiot EU authors decided to make him into some kind of paragon.

That's on my list of EU issues, along with how "badass" Boba Fett and the Millennium Falcon are.

In the screenplay, it actually says "Ben reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation". But of course, none of the EU authors noticed that ...

[Count Chocula]

I knew this old Essential Guide would come in handy:


According to Wookiepedia, the Imperator-I class Star Destroyer has a Class 2 hyperdrive and a Class 8 backup hyperdrive. So how does Class 8 compare to Class 10, and how fast is that? For comparison purposes, I'll assume a Class 2 hyperdrive is half as fast as a Class 1, which is half as fast as a Class .5 (making the Acclamator class ridiculously fast assault transports BTW), which makes a Class 8 ISD hyperdrive 1/4 as fast as the standard one.

So how fast is fast? Let's look at Mike's comments on hyperdrive, from the main site. Hyperdrive speeds range from 26,000 c to 10 million c. In Conquest, Mike used 127 light years per hour, around 1.2 million c, I'm guessing based on this quote from Dark Force Rising:

From the labored sound of the engines, [Mara Jade] could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour.

So perhaps that's an "overdrive" speed for a Star Destroyer, which would make a Class 2 hyperdrive capable of 31.74 light years per hour, or 300,000 times c. Or maybe hyperspace in the Milky Way is faster than in the GFFA. That works out to a Class 1 hyperdrive speed of 63.48LY/hour, 600,000 times c.

So going off the Class 1 speed, a Class 10 hyperdrive would push a ship 6.4LY/hour, or a piddly 60,000 times light speed. Or about three times faster than the only explicitly stated speed for Warp 9.9, in Voyager:

Exact velocities were only given in the Voyager episode The 37's where Tom Paris describes Voyager's velocity at warp factor 9.9 (under the new warp table formula) as being about 4 billion miles per second, which would be over 21000 times the speed of light.

So to equal the speed of Voyager traveling at Warp 9.9, the SW ship's backup hyperdrive would have to be a Class...umm (counts Chocula fingers) 35, or about 1.8 light years per hour. Hardly seems worth the bother.

[Sea Skimmer]

Why is it so important to capture it anyway? How many vessels were captured by either side during the entire Pacific naval war between the United States and Imperial Japan in World War 2?

More then you might think, including gunboat USS Wake and destroyer USS Stewart. The former lived on to be recaptured by the USN at the end of the war, given to the Chinese and then captured by the Chinese Communists. During the fall of Java and the Indian Ocean Raid which immediately followed the Imperial Japanese Navy made a particularly rich haul of captured ships. The USN went so far as to raise this Japanese destroyer which was sunk by carrier based aircraft near Guadalcanal even though it was a known obsolete type.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... utsuki.jpg

I agree though that capturing makes no sense as a regular tactic. Federation ships are far too prone to spontaneous explosions even when not being fired upon for boarding operations to work. The only reason to capture warships would be to examine the technology, and that can be done well enough by scooping up debris.

This is the advantage of space, when a ship is lost anything that wasn’t vaporized is going to be just drifting around waiting for some kind of droid tug to collect it and drag it back to a freighter. People have put the radars back together from crashed fighters, so it’s no stretch for thousands of Imperial droids to be able to put Federation systems back together given time. They wouldn’t be likely to actually work, but they can still be examined. The Federation would probably surrender so quickly it’d all be irrelevant though.

Merchant ships would be seized because they can be used to mobilize the local economies to further support the invasion. It also just looks good on a captain’s record not to destroy every last thing you see.

[Starglider]

Warp drive allows for use of sensors and some weapons while at FTL. This is its only advantage over hyperdrive. The idea that imperial ships may have difficulty pacing warp ships is highly dubious; there is no indication that hyperdrive speed is fixed, it may well be possible to travel at a lower FTL velocity just by dialing back the engine power. I imagine Wars ships do just that when they are shadowing slower ships (e.g. bounty hunters tracking a target). The inability of ships to track and shoot while in hyperdrive is the only real limitation.

This suggests that flying wide orbits at warp speeds would prevent Trek ships from being engaged, since the Empire doesn't have FTL tactical missiles and its beam weapons are lightspeed at best. That would be pointless though, as all the Trek ships can do is lob photon torpedoes in the general direction of the Imperial fleet, and the pathetic PT yield will do nothing against Wars shields (plus they'll have to penetrate a hail of point defence TL fire). Eventually the Trek ships will run out of torpedoes and/or fuel, or the Imperials will get lucky jumping an interdictor into the path of the warp ships and destroy them.

[Darth Wong]

Warp drive allows for use of sensors and some weapons while at FTL. This is its only advantage over hyperdrive. The idea that imperial ships may have difficulty pacing warp ships is highly dubious; there is no indication that hyperdrive speed is fixed, it may well be possible to travel at a lower FTL velocity just by dialing back the engine power. I imagine Wars ships do just that when they are shadowing slower ships (e.g. bounty hunters tracking a target). The inability of ships to track and shoot while in hyperdrive is the only real limitation.

Han Solo triumphantly announced that the ISDs were no longer trailing them in ANH; how could he possibly know that if they aren't capable of tracking anything in hyperspace? I know the EU says otherwise, but ANH overrides the EU.

This suggests that flying wide orbits at warp speeds would prevent Trek ships from being engaged, since the Empire doesn't have FTL tactical missiles and its beam weapons are lightspeed at best. That would be pointless though, as all the Trek ships can do is lob photon torpedoes in the general direction of the Imperial fleet, and the pathetic PT yield will do nothing against Wars shields (plus they'll have to penetrate a hail of point defence TL fire). Eventually the Trek ships will run out of torpedoes and/or fuel, or the Imperials will get lucky jumping an interdictor into the path of the warp ships and destroy them.

The Trek ship could theoretically approach at warp, drop to sublight, fire, and then warp away again, then drop out of warp at long range, turn around at sublight, and make another pass. Sort of like the Trekkies' infamous made-up tactic of "warp strafing" except that we know this would actually work and it fits with precedent. However, it does presume that the ISD is incapable of tracking an FTL object, despite precedent from ANH. If it is, then it can simply lob fire in the direction of the Trek ship as it approaches at warp.

In any case, it doesn't matter. If we're going to use hit-and-run tactics, hyperdrive allows for the ultimate hit-and-run tactics, meaning that an ISD need only present itself for attack for as long as it takes to destroy whatever it came to destroy. If they so chose, the Empire could wipe out the Federation's entire infrastructure with hit-and-run tactics. I don't know why people persist in assuming that only one side would use hit-and-run tactics while the other side passively sits there.