KT's Military Credentials And The VS Debate

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KT's Military Credentials And The VS Debate

Post by Aaron »

Recently it has come to my attention that various claims are being made around the internet that Karen Traviss military service lend weight to her SW books, spefically her Clone Commando books. As well various claims are floated around that her time in the Royal Navy Auxillary Service (RNXS) has some relevance. I will attempt to break down her service to show what actual relevance her time in has to the Clone Commando books using my experiance and knowledge of the military as well as the experiance of collegues that have been provided to me.

Unfortunatly a request to the MoD for her service details was denied for privacy concerns, there is however plenty here to make an assessment.


So lets look at her own statements and see what can be determined.

First:

From- +http://www.karentraviss.com/html/cont_rea.htm#1
Like most writers, I've been around a bit. Most of my working life has been spent as a journo in TV and newspapers. At one time or another I've been an advertising copywriter, a media liaison officer for the police, a journalism lecturer, a public relations manager and a defence correspondent. I've served in both the Territorial Army and the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service (now disbanded, alas).
Little real info here, in fact to little to determine anything beyond the fact that she was in the TA and RNXS.
I now live in Wiltshire, home of some very fine beers, but I come from Portsmouth, home of the Royal Navy and birthplace of the world's greatest engineer, Isambard Brunel - oh, and some chaps called Charles Dickens and Peter Sellers. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle used to have a medical practice just around the corner from my old house and created Sherlock Holmes there, and H G Wells worked in a drapery store in the same road. Rudyard Kipling spent some childhood years in Portsmouth and Nevil Shute lived in the city too, so you can see there's something about Pompey that drives you to fiction.
She lived in Portsmouth, possibly a base brat.

Second:

From- +http://www.strangehorizons.com/2006/200 ... nt-a.shtml
Most of my military detail comes from the time I spent as a defence correspondent. It was a happy time. I got to do some interesting things that I look back on and think, "God, were you mad?" I thought nothing of being winched on and off ships' decks by helicopter, or playing with submarines or being deafened by Harriers. It was an odd mix of the political and procurement stuff—covering Defence Select Committees, talking to the arms industry—and talking to the people in uniform. (And playing with their kit, of course. The submarine simulator was a blast.)
This doesn't directly relate to her military service, unless she rode her TA trade into the journolism world. In any case none of this has any relevance to her statement that her military experiance is useful to portraying comradiere in a Special Forces unit. Unless you believe that you can absorb it through proximity or that the troops are actually going to include an outsider into their world.
I managed to pick a period when there were no wars, and I regret never having been an embedded journalist or getting to cover a conflict, but as I might be serving as a reservist again—if I pass the medical, which isn't looking good right now—I'm likely to end up minding embeds. (Ironic.) I was a reservist before for a few years—not in the line of fire, although a navy meat pie is a dangerous object—and that was interesting in terms of seeing how easily I fitted into a tribe. I come from a navy city and most of my family was in the services at some time or worked in defence, so I have a great affection for the armed forces.
Once again, states that she was a Reservist. No operational experiance listed, so in other words none. Soldiers are usually very clear on what they've done and the absence of any details does not speak well of her service.

Note also the fact that she only served "a few years", assuming that she means this literally we're looking at a maximum of three years. Probable rank upon release, no higher than Lance Corporal (one hook private). So just competant enough to stop being a danger to herself and others, won't require constant supervision.
And I enjoyed serving at sea with the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service. I was the world's worst helmsman and the most inaccurate thrower of heaving lines. I loved it because it was basic seamanship duties, not media liaison.
The duties stated according to a collegue make this the equivilant of an "undesignated deck seamen" in the US Navy. In other words not trusted or capable of doing all but the most basic duties.
I also served briefly in the Territorial Army (that's like the National Guard), but that was in a specialist media role, and I have to admit I would rather have learned a different trade like driving trucks or maintaining tanks. But I did get some firearms training, which is handy for a writer. The reserves have changed an awful lot in recent years and the U.K. armed forces are heavily dependent on them to meet their commitments; in some specialist branches, it's all reservists.
First off I can't even find a trade meeting this description of the UK Army site (+url=http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/Jobs/Home.htm}. The closest I found was a Clerk. Probable duties given her time in and rank level: photocopying, running errands for the actual Public Affairs Officer and making coffee. Oh and she got firearms training, that at least is relevant.

Third:

From- +http://www.sequentialtart.com/article.php?id=207
Military — in terms of the technical and political detail, I owe more to my time as a defence correspondent than the time I was in the reserves. I had high-level access to key people and I also got to scramble over some fun kit, from submarines to helicopters. Personally, I don't think you can ever really know what it means to be in uniform until someone is shooting at you in earnest, and you sure as hell can't sit in judgement on service personnel until you have.
So we see that she claims that she knows what it's really like to be in uniform but by her own standards, she can't possibly know.
In the reserves I never had anything remotely like a front line role, so I never presume to know what someone on the front line feels.
So by her own admission, she was a REMF. She can't claim to know what it would be like in a Special Forces unit but bases details of her stories on exactly that.
I do know what that bond with your mates feels like, though, especially when you rely on them for your safety as you do on board ship, and how automatic that bond is: and don't forget I also come from a naval port that was also a garrison town, and most of my family served at some time or were in the defence industry, so it's embedded in my culture, as it is for many of my generation from that city. I had a brilliant time in the RNXS, crewing small ships, and I preferred that to the Territorial Army, where I had a specialist media role. I like getting my hands dirty, I admit.
Here we get to the crux of the problem. The fact that she assumes one type of service and unit experiance translate to everyone else. What most people don't understand is that comradiere is differnt for each trade and unit in the military. A clerk in a support or non-operational unit will not experiance what an infantry or SF soldier will. Their bonds are much tighter by virtue of the fact that they actually rely on each other for their lives. It's also dependent on whether you have operational or combat experiance. Both forge bonds that are far above what you get by just serving out your time as a media specialist (a trade which apperently doesn't exist).

As well living in a "garrison town" confers almost no relevant knowledge on military comradiere. Does anyone think military wives have more than a passing clue into how a unit functions?

So as we can see, her service bears almost no relevance to what she is writing. If she were writing stories about the bonds and the goings on in a clone army support unit, go nuts. But she can't claim to have any more insight to a SF unit than the average civvie. It's also worth noting that a collegue who has a very respectable and difficult job in the US Navy but isn't and has never been aboard ship pointed out this to me: "Whenever I write about ships and shipboard operations, it really is based on things I read in a book, not my Navy experience. How does serving as a basic seaman make one a qualified expert on everything military?" This is easily transferable to whatever branch of the military you care to name.

I should also make it clear that the statements made by her aren't very offensive by themselves, lots of former military personnel do this. What is objectionable is that some Trekkies are latching on to her experiance and using it to claim that she has special knowledge and that her stories are better because of it. Or that because she has military experiance, they assume that she must know everything about the military.

*************************************************************

Thanks to Lonestar, Wayne Poe, General Deathdealer, The Commander and The Rubberhead for their insight into military matters and helping find the relevant quotes. As well various RL military collegues who participated in this discussion.

Also posted on SFJ as these are where the claims seem to originate. See below for the threads with my response and the original thread that started it all.

+http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... =8839#8839

+http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 72&start=0
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Post by harbringer »

I would argue that her record is irrelevent if you like her books. If you dont like her books then you might care. However as most writers of sci fi have little to no experience - in particular Spec ops.

IMHO Perhaps you could say better some than none - also I dont see any Trek episodes that have benefited from real world military input so <shrugs> I dont see that it matters what experience she has. I do agree different units and militaries behave in distinct ways that differ from their bretheren (they specialise in different ways and or use specific equipment), however in clone units I believe this would be less than in any national force today.

Lastly <grins> im not sure this is the right forum.
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Post by Lonestar »

If her military expierience is being used as justification for her dumbass Grand Army of the Republic Force Structure(which is something Trekkies could use as a commentary on how large or small the Star Wars military is) then it is relavent.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

harbringer wrote:I would argue that her record is irrelevent if you like her books. If you dont like her books then you might care. However as most writers of sci fi have little to no experience - in particular Spec ops.
This might be a shock to you but I believe the majority of people on this site do not care for her books and stories. This isn't the TF.net Mando sycophant club after all.
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Post by Aaron »

harbringer wrote:I would argue that her record is irrelevent if you like her books. If you dont like her books then you might care. However as most writers of sci fi have little to no experience - in particular Spec ops.

IMHO Perhaps you could say better some than none - also I dont see any Trek episodes that have benefited from real world military input so <shrugs> I dont see that it matters what experience she has. I do agree different units and militaries behave in distinct ways that differ from their bretheren (they specialise in different ways and or use specific equipment), however in clone units I believe this would be less than in any national force today.

Lastly <grins> im not sure this is the right forum.
It's not exactly the fact that's claiming to have something she doesn't (posing is the common term), lots of military members do this. There's even a dedicated website to expose fraudulant SEALs. The problem is that Trekkies are latching on to her experiance and using it to claim things that aren't true. Like she was in the military so that autmoatically makes the books and details within correct. Perhaps their latching on to it because her numbers and plots weaken SW in comparison to ST.

And as the fellow above me pointed out, there are plenty of people that think her books are shit.

If this is the wrong place for this, I'm sure the mods will move it. With my apologies.
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Post by The Dark »

harbringer wrote:I would argue that her record is irrelevent if you like her books. If you dont like her books then you might care. However as most writers of sci fi have little to no experience - in particular Spec ops.
Spec Ops, no, but of the ones who write military sci-fi, there are quite a few that have military experience:

David Drake - front line experience, Vietnam
John Ringo - served in the Airborne
Mike Williamson - Air Force engineer
Steve White - Naval intelligence
Elizabeth Moon - Marine lieutenant
Robert Heinlein - Naval officer, served on USS Lexington (discharged due to tuberculosis)
Dave Freer - served in the South African Defence Force

Just about the only significant military sci-fi writers I'm familiar with that I can't find military experience for are David Weber and Lois McMaster Bujold. Bujold's is less standard military and more MilInt, possibly with some influence from her father (the McMaster of McMaster on Materials).
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Post by Darth Wong »

I think most people don't realize how many non-combat positions there are in the armed forces. There are plenty of people who are in the armed forces and spend their days working with computers and diagrams, thousands of miles away from any action. And yet, so many of them act like they're Rambo when the subject of "military experience" comes up and their undisputed ability to refute anything that anyone says on any military-related subject.
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Post by Meest »

Just by the way she describes things in her bio info snippets, it sounds like she's padding her resume. Like it was said she probably was in public relations or some type of assistant. Maybe she got all the brochures of weapon systems and relayed them or summarized test results etc, but that doesn't make her any more knowledgeable than some who watches Discovery channel specials. To me it sounds like she's a typical military wanker who thinks a special op guy can tear through 50 guys in no cover and surprise. Sounds more like a fan of the military that got some special guided tours.
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Post by Aaron »

Darth Wong wrote:I think most people don't realize how many non-combat positions there are in the armed forces. There are plenty of people who are in the armed forces and spend their days working with computers and diagrams, thousands of miles away from any action. And yet, so many of them act like they're Rambo when the subject of "military experience" comes up and their undisputed ability to refute anything that anyone says on any military-related subject.
Just for the Canadian Army:

Six trades whose primary purpose is to engage in combat operations and thirty support trades. Support trades may participate in combat operations depending on their unit and function in theatre. It's not unsuall for a signaller in the Company Signaller position to see direct combat for example.
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Post by Aaron »

Ghetto edit: I didn't include officer trades, the ones in the combat arms are duplicates of the actual combat trades and there are various officer specific support trades, like Public Affairs Officer.
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Post by harbringer »

<shrugs> maybe im not stupid but I wouldn't trust anyones force structure for the grand army at the present. It would largely depend on things like Sith, kaminoan or mandolorian ideas none of which are covered anywhere that I know of.

My point simply is that very few writers either for star wars or trek (not anything else which would be covered by OSF) have military experience and no I wouldnt trust a writer using her bio to sell books. But at least some military experience might be good sometimes.

Trying to scale the units up is hard from a base structure especially if we don't know how many clones were assigned to guarding strategic but un-engaged worlds for example. Even total numbers of units per batch of clones will I expect vary according to role (thats how I would do it).

I personally dont think someone in the rear would know what combat is like but it isnt the reason I would throw out her work, just like I wouldnt throw Mikes out on the basis he is canadian or not a starship pilot. If I were you I would look to the arguments themselves. If a trekkie says "she has military experience she knows what she is talking about!" a) appeal to authority and b) she may not know all the details or "reported" all the details (SOD) said trekkie would need.

As an example I base my assumptions on starfleet on all the footage seen and look for trends, not assume every starship will work exactly like the enterprise as not every ship has clones of the enterprise crew on identical ships.

As for my bias or otherwise :) I read her books, they were good books but in my opinion were odd and didnt fit with my ideas on what a clone trooper (she gave them too many normal social patterns IMHO) would be like. That said I really like the fetts :) so now thats out of the way I dont care what you think of the characters but you should have at least asked before you assumed I was ignoring the obvious.
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Post by Jim Raynor »

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the fuck she actually did. The second anyone claims that l33t troops can take on billion-to-one odds on the basis of skill, you know they're full of shit. It amazes me that her uber special forces crap ever flew when at the same time, in real life, the US Army is being stymied by dirt poor insurgents...because they simply don't have the numbers in Iraq.

Anyone who seriously argues that Karen Traviss's minimalism has any validity is either unbelievably stupid or intentionally dishonest.
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Post by JCady »

Darth Wong wrote:I think most people don't realize how many non-combat positions there are in the armed forces. There are plenty of people who are in the armed forces and spend their days working with computers and diagrams, thousands of miles away from any action. And yet, so many of them act like they're Rambo when the subject of "military experience" comes up and their undisputed ability to refute anything that anyone says on any military-related subject.
For example, my cousin-in-law is a Navy officer, but his confident claim that that there's no such thing as a gun which fires over 1500 rounds a minute, because that's impossible. One of my friends is a Navy submariner, and he adamantly insists the M-16 is chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition...and so is the AK-47.
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Post by Peptuck »

but his confident claim that that there's no such thing as a gun which fires over 1500 rounds a minute, because that's impossible.
lol wut

Never heard of the MG-42, has he? The Germans made such "impossible" weapons back in WWII.
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Post by Academia Nut »

Fuck man, you would think he would have heard of the M61 Vulcan capable of 6000 rounds per minute, or 4 times the "impossible" max he set.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Jim Raynor wrote: Anyone who seriously argues that Karen Traviss's minimalism has any validity is either unbelievably stupid or intentionally dishonest.
I think it's quite telling that on this particular forum there have been zero defenders of Traviss' work as far as I know. We can make it a lower end number by eliminating all users with a postcount of 0, which brings the number down to 3,009. Of those 3,009 we can safely eliminate about 160 or so as banned. and to really bring it down lets subtract another 149, because the possibility exists than one in twenty people of the remaining number do not have any particular interest in Star Wars. plus it gives me a lovely even number of 2,700.

Out of this sample of 2,700 Sci Fi fans, 0 have come forward to really defend Traviss works. The kindest thing she has ever gotten on this forum is "Hard Contact wasn't bad but what the FUCK was she thinking on all that other stuff."

In other words out of a huge number of Star Wars fans the best she could hope for is apathy towards her work. This is very revealing, but then again people that register here I guess aren't the same kind of mindless consuming toads that make any book with a Star Wars label slapped on it an immediate bestseller.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

JCady wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I think most people don't realize how many non-combat positions there are in the armed forces. There are plenty of people who are in the armed forces and spend their days working with computers and diagrams, thousands of miles away from any action. And yet, so many of them act like they're Rambo when the subject of "military experience" comes up and their undisputed ability to refute anything that anyone says on any military-related subject.
For example, my cousin-in-law is a Navy officer, but his confident claim that that there's no such thing as a gun which fires over 1500 rounds a minute, because that's impossible. One of my friends is a Navy submariner, and he adamantly insists the M-16 is chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition...and so is the AK-47.
Are you sure he's not talking about the AR-10? That's probably the most well known of the AR-10/AR-15 family that uses 7.62 NATO. Though there is the HK417, the SR-25, and the M110; but the latter two are sniper rifles.

As for the AK, I know there are some Galil's chambered for 7.62 NATO, but he might be confusing a Zastava M77/M77B1 for an AK.

Does anyone know how much less the Navy stresses knowing your weapon than the Army and Marine Corps do?
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Post by Peptuck »

General Schatten wrote:
JCady wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I think most people don't realize how many non-combat positions there are in the armed forces. There are plenty of people who are in the armed forces and spend their days working with computers and diagrams, thousands of miles away from any action. And yet, so many of them act like they're Rambo when the subject of "military experience" comes up and their undisputed ability to refute anything that anyone says on any military-related subject.
For example, my cousin-in-law is a Navy officer, but his confident claim that that there's no such thing as a gun which fires over 1500 rounds a minute, because that's impossible. One of my friends is a Navy submariner, and he adamantly insists the M-16 is chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition...and so is the AK-47.
Are you sure he's not talking about the AR-10? That's probably the most well known of the AR-10/AR-15 family that uses 7.62 NATO. Though there is the HK417, the SR-25, and the M110; but the latter two are sniper rifles.

As for the AK, I know there are some Galil's chambered for 7.62 NATO, but he might be confusing a Zastava M77/M77B1 for an AK.

Does anyone know how much less the Navy stresses knowing your weapon than the Army and Marine Corps do?
Very little, from what I know. One of the guys I work with was a Navy Petty Officer (I think 1st class) who told me the most they got in terms of firearms training were a few classes on properly handling the weapon, with little real hands-on firing range practice.
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Post by JCady »

General Schatten wrote:
JCady wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I think most people don't realize how many non-combat positions there are in the armed forces. There are plenty of people who are in the armed forces and spend their days working with computers and diagrams, thousands of miles away from any action. And yet, so many of them act like they're Rambo when the subject of "military experience" comes up and their undisputed ability to refute anything that anyone says on any military-related subject.
For example, my cousin-in-law is a Navy officer, but his confident claim that that there's no such thing as a gun which fires over 1500 rounds a minute, because that's impossible. One of my friends is a Navy submariner, and he adamantly insists the M-16 is chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition...and so is the AK-47.
Are you sure he's not talking about the AR-10? That's probably the most well known of the AR-10/AR-15 family that uses 7.62 NATO. Though there is the HK417, the SR-25, and the M110; but the latter two are sniper rifles.
Nope, I pointed out the AR-10 vs AR-15 issue and he politely but firmly insisted that, no, I'm wrong, the AR-15/M-16 is 7.62mm.
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Post by Darwin »

JCady wrote:
General Schatten wrote:
JCady wrote: For example, my cousin-in-law is a Navy officer, but his confident claim that that there's no such thing as a gun which fires over 1500 rounds a minute, because that's impossible. One of my friends is a Navy submariner, and he adamantly insists the M-16 is chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition...and so is the AK-47.
Are you sure he's not talking about the AR-10? That's probably the most well known of the AR-10/AR-15 family that uses 7.62 NATO. Though there is the HK417, the SR-25, and the M110; but the latter two are sniper rifles.
Nope, I pointed out the AR-10 vs AR-15 issue and he politely but firmly insisted that, no, I'm wrong, the AR-15/M-16 is 7.62mm.
If he was a sergeant I might look twice, but an officer? meh.

Impressive. I've found that most military folk aren't exactly weapons experts, unless being one is part of their job. (if 'armory' isn't in your job description, it probably isn't.) I've sort of grown up smack in the middle of the firearms industry, and I've forgotten more than most military officers know about small arms.
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