Moderator: Vympel
Yes, I added that entry to the Trektard dictionary yesterday.Vympel wrote:What a fucking moron.* Why could it be impossible, that Leia, as she has said any moments and not, as you have falsified, any minutes, wasn't sure about the exact time, the Alliance will arrive?
So Leia "wasn't sure about the exact time" to the extent that she can't tell the difference between "any moment" and "several days".
Its worse when you consider the ass-raping these jerkoffs have done to that quote from the Death Star novel. They change "boost" to "shunt" or "disappear" to deliberately try and lower the energy requirement yet they have a shit-fit over "moment" to "minute"Vympel wrote:And he even accuses you of dishonesty for using "minute" instead of "moment", as if there's any significant difference between the two whatsoever.
Fucking hell, Wayne... I don't really want to know what the bug-eyed freak looks like. It really, really wouldn't surprise me if he was bucktoothed with cum stains on his face (Darkstar: "Semen helps prevent pimples!"), and do any of us really need to see that?Lord Poe wrote:Fuck him. I'll set the debate: He must be on camera, state his case, and stay on topic! Video limit: 5 minutes!
I think the most salient point here is that they act as if we must prove their theory to be impossible. That's an obvious burden-of-proof fallacy; if they're going to base an argument upon such obvious absurdities as a 12 hour trip to get into or out of that bunker, then one needs to produce ironclad proof that no other interpretation is possible. In other words, they must prove that it was impossible for the Ewoks to construct those devices before the Empire came.Elfdart wrote:Holy shit that website must be the epicenter of web stupidity. Did it ever occur to those fucktards that the Ewoks lured the stormtroopers and vehicles toward the traps and catapults rather than moving the catapults towards the bunker? Who says the Ewoks didn't rig up traps to try to deal with the Empire (or other critters on Endor) before Han's team arrived?
This not only makes more sense, but matches what we see in the movie: The Koala bears attack then scatter, drawing the Imperial troops away from the bunker and into a number of tricks and traps and ambushes.
Darktard's version: the Ewoks spent several days cutting wood and vines to make traps and siege weapons, then spent more time moving them up to the area around the bunker.
As I recall, when I confronted someone pushing the idea on the trektardism thread, he said that it really was "any minute", and that the five days were spent beforehand.Vympel wrote:What a fucking moron.* Why could it be impossible, that Leia, as she has said any moments and not, as you have falsified, any minutes, wasn't sure about the exact time, the Alliance will arrive?
So Leia "wasn't sure about the exact time" to the extent that she can't tell the difference between "any moment" and "several days".
=snip further red herrings=Jedi Master Spock wrote:Novelization: "Apparently Wicket knows about a back door to this installation."Cock_Knocker wrote:And again, you dismiss the silly notion that it took 12 HOURS for Han and the rebels to get to the control room without being discovered, that it took 12 MORE hours for the Imperials to run in to this "maze of tunnels" (And where is the proof of said maze, BTW? Quotes? Schematics? Anything?)and Han armed charges and ran out of the "maze" in a little less than 12 hours. On top of that, you side step the notion that the Rebels would blow the shield generator FOUR DAYS before the fleet gets there. Yeah, some surprise attack. Also, I noticed you threw in the "ridge" red herring. That no longer applies to what we're discussing once they're already AT the bunker. Try not to muddy up the discussion too much.
Ah, selective quoting. I haven't seen this since Elim Garak from ASVS... Of course, I said "maze of tunnels", referring to some fictional area they were easily lost in. I didn't say there WERE no tunnels.Jedi Master Spock wrote:And the tunnels? From the novelization, tunnel:
Furtively she led the way down the dark and low-beamed tunnel.
Uh, did you read and understand what you've just posted? Not only did they know where they were going, they had a map to aid them. There's absolutely nothing in that quote or any other source that says it will take 12 HOURS to walk from the back door of the bunker to the control room. The 12 hour assertion needs to be proven (and not disproved by me) by either a canon, or an official source. Not fan (or in this case, non-fan) speculation.Jedi Master Spock wrote:(Leia's in the lead, FYI.) And maze?
Han, Chewie, Leia, and a dozen Rebel commandos made their way through labyrinthine corridors toward the area where the shield generator was waiting on their map.
First of all, the Imperials coming to capture them already knew they were there, thanks to the Emperor. Secondly, you need to prove that Ewoks were somehow DAYS away. Proof? Quotes?
This video is based on Darkstar's comedic webpage. Moving on...Jedi Master Spock wrote:I don't, since as I've stated earlier, I favor a matter of hours.
Your opinion runs counter to the obvious intent of what the movie is showing us. The Imperials obviously didn't sprint into the entrance, then stop just inside the doorway.Jedi Master Spock wrote:IMO, there's no reason to assume the Imperials entering the bunker were doing anything more than blocking off an avenue of escape.
Strawman? No, common sense. It was the next morning after recruiting the Ewoks that Han and co. were at the ridge. Not four days later.Jedi Master Spock wrote:Strawman much? If someone is in good shape, they can walk a hundred klicks in a day.Proof? Quotes? How did Han and co. get there in less than four days? They were on foot, too.
But not four days. Bright Tree Village wasn't that far away.Jedi Master Spock wrote:[However, short legged Ewoks are not going to make the hike to the far side of the Imperial shield generator complex in minutes. It's going to be at least on the order of hours, given short Ewok legs.
Then you shouldn't try to shoehorn your Endor timeline into this discussion, which is about Darkstar's timeline, correct?Jedi Master Spock wrote:[No, they really don't have much to do with it. I'm talking about a quarter to a half day, while you're arguing against five days. Arguments aimed an order of magnitude off simply don't translate very well.
Then we're done here on this subject. The video is based on Darkstar's timeline, obviously. Not yours.Jedi Master Spock wrote:Take that argument up with 2046. I'm not advancing five days.
The only thing that's thin is your laughably false attempt at rightous indignation. My comment "be a man" implies that I'm talking to a man who is not acting in the fashion a man is expected to act. This used to imply a man stands by the courage of his convictions rather than couch them in doublespeak. If you are female, then I apologize. Or is English your second language?Jedi Master Spock wrote:Did you know that you're implicitly insulting women when you say things like that? Not to call this a warning, mind, I'm not taking offense personally, but it's a habit of speech I've started to notice seems to be common here when tempers run thin, and I can't think it's a great one.Such snide comments betray your Mr. Rogers demeanor. If you're trying to say the video itself has framerate problems because it was poorly put together, then be a man and say so.
That's not surprising, really. I've had to point it out to you in the past. Anyway, there's no other way to take the following snide comment:Jedi Master Spock wrote:I'm not seeing where he called you stupid.
Who is like God arbour wrote:To be honest, your video is preposterous and doesn't show much sharpness.
Do we even know the amount he owed to Jabba? For all we know he owed 100k and Han would've used Obi-wan's offer of 15k credits on Sabaac.Isolder74 wrote:Three weeks time might have had nothing to do with the travel time at all. Han probably just threw out a number long enough away to, as he felt, give him plenty of time to get to Alderaan and back and give him plenty of lead time to get all he needs done before hand. 3 weeks could havge just been an easy to remember number and nothing more. Remember with 15% interest it is in Han best interest to fly back as soon as he could to pay Jabba. 3 weeks could have been simply don't charge me anything for 3 weeks and I'll have it to you in that time.
"The part that pisses me off is the way they play dumb -as if they weren't familiar with one of the most popular movies of all time, and one that's been playing on HBO for the past six months. The Ewoks are already hostile to the Empire, even though they haven't started fighting them yet. The little Ewok is scared of Leia until he realizes she isn't one of them. Three-year-olds figured that much out! Only someone being a lying douche nozzle would think that the Ewoks waited until the Rebels arrived before they started setting traps and building catapults.Darth Wong wrote: I think the most salient point here is that they act as if we must prove their theory to be impossible. That's an obvious burden-of-proof fallacy; if they're going to base an argument upon such obvious absurdities as a 12 hour trip to get into or out of that bunker, then one needs to produce ironclad proof that no other interpretation is possible. In other words, they must prove that it was impossible for the Ewoks to construct those devices before the Empire came.
In other words, they're like a DUI attorney who looks for an undotted i on the police citation to get his boozing client off the hook. As far as the tactic itself is concerned, I ran into something similar when dealing with a homesick abortions over at Spacebattles (I'm Marshall Lucky) when a couple of assholes claimed that the uruks from Helm's Deep could have won if the fortress had been defended by a company of Imperial Japanese soldiers from WW2 with unlimited ammo!:Most of their arguments are like this: they look for loopholes in the evidence through which to fit their claims, and then act as if one must prove their claims impossible or they win by default. That is totally unlike any kind of reasonable approach. No normal person watches that scene and thinks "I wonder what they did during the several days they waited for the Rebel fleet to arrive after Leia said they would be here any moment"; they must realize on some level that they're off in la-la land, but they figure they've got loopholes, and you can't dislodge them from those loopholes so they win.
I'd like to see a survey of anyone who (a) has seen Return of the Jedi and (b) does not jerk off with a lubed-up toy tribble, that asks the viewer how long they think the attack on Endor took (from the arrival of Solo's team to the destruction of the Death Star). Ask them to do a rough timeline (they can scan the movie, if necessary). I'll wager that every single one will say the whole mission took place over two days, from Han & Co. landing on the first day and Leia meeting the Ewoks, to Luke turning himself in that night, to the assault the next day with the DS2 being blown up that afternoon and the fireworks plus Vader's pyre that night.Well I think the orcs will suffer aneurysms en masse. I mean, if we can just make shit up as we go...
Never mind, you'd be pretty tired and in no shape to fight a battle after that. Oh but I forget, these are complete imbeciles who think you can spend a day in a cockpit and still be combat ready.consequences wrote:Fuck, he thinks if you're in good shape you can make a hundred klicks in a day? With a fucking road, Fort Bragg only expected you to make twenty in four hours.
It is heavily implied that 17 thousand would have been enough to have gotten Han paid off to Jabba. 'I've got a real easy charter, I'll pay you back plus a little extra I just need a bit more time.'Soontir C'boath wrote:Do we even know the amount he owed to Jabba? For all we know he owed 100k and Han would've used Obi-wan's offer of 15k credits on Sabaac.Isolder74 wrote:Three weeks time might have had nothing to do with the travel time at all. Han probably just threw out a number long enough away to, as he felt, give him plenty of time to get to Alderaan and back and give him plenty of lead time to get all he needs done before hand. 3 weeks could havge just been an easy to remember number and nothing more. Remember with 15% interest it is in Han best interest to fly back as soon as he could to pay Jabba. 3 weeks could have been simply don't charge me anything for 3 weeks and I'll have it to you in that time.
To give a little more detail, this was a roadmarch with water stations prepositioned enroute, a twenty-five pound pussy ruck instead of an eighty to a hundred pound plus combat load, chemlights to mark the road until the sun came up, and they gave you the day off after you did it. This being the same base that made you run four miles in the morning before going to work every other day. This may have been for the pogues, but long-distance travel by foot is no joke, especially since we never see characters in SW performing appropriate practice exercise.Darth Servo wrote:Never mind, you'd be pretty tired and in no shape to fight a battle after that. Oh but I forget, these are complete imbeciles who think you can spend a day in a cockpit and still be combat ready.consequences wrote:Fuck, he thinks if you're in good shape you can make a hundred klicks in a day? With a fucking road, Fort Bragg only expected you to make twenty in four hours.
As for the trash Wayne posted, it never ceases to amaze me how much those idiots will squirm and squirm to avoid conceding even the smallest point.
Or, for example, closer to them, a typical build up forced march to 'graduate' for deployment is 28 miles in 8 hours with a combat load. Still with all the water stations and all that, but an exhausting feat with all that gear.consequences wrote:To give a little more detail, this was a roadmarch with water stations prepositioned enroute, a twenty-five pound pussy ruck instead of an eighty to a hundred pound plus combat load, chemlights to mark the road until the sun came up, and they gave you the day off after you did it. This being the same base that made you run four miles in the morning before going to work every other day. This may have been for the pogues, but long-distance travel by foot is no joke, especially since we never see characters in SW performing appropriate practice exercise.Darth Servo wrote:Never mind, you'd be pretty tired and in no shape to fight a battle after that. Oh but I forget, these are complete imbeciles who think you can spend a day in a cockpit and still be combat ready.consequences wrote:Fuck, he thinks if you're in good shape you can make a hundred klicks in a day? With a fucking road, Fort Bragg only expected you to make twenty in four hours.
As for the trash Wayne posted, it never ceases to amaze me how much those idiots will squirm and squirm to avoid conceding even the smallest point.
Let's compare that to the Rebels, working with no roads, having to carry all their supplies to survive plus demo sufficient to blow the bunker, and incidentally maintaining area security through the night.
You need only look at the Clone Wars, where Obi-wan was on Muunilist talking to Ki-Adi Mundi on Hypori, as soon as the conversation ended Obi-wan sent his ARC Troopers to help and Grievous started fighting Ki-Adi and half a dozen other Jedi, in less than fifteen minutes the ARC's appeared to save the day. Hypori is in the same sector as Tatooine and Geonosis.Vympel wrote:Because they don't accept EU evidence as to distances between planets, so they pretend it means nothing if Palpatine got to Mustafar in a matter of what is literally less than an hour.
They only spin copious amounts of bullshit about the distances actually explicitly stated - ie. the hundreds of light years from Sullust to Endor, and the Tatooine-to-Geonosis trip. Both are based on patently ludicrous premises that no normal person would bother with.
(Besides, the greater point is still - what kind of fuckwit wathces RotJ and thinks the trip took days?)
Oh, they hyperanalyze the prequels too. Tatooine to Geonosis takes 12-15 hours for just over a parsec according to those twats. Darktard hyperanalyzed the shadows on Mustafar to try and say that trip took hours, even though the greatest source of light on the planet is the lava. As Mike said, they look for loopholes to reach the conclusion they want rather than what is the most obvious one.Stravo wrote:Why are they analyzing hyperdrive speeds at the Battle of Endor in a vacuum? The Prequels are littered with exampled of transgalactic speeds in a matter of hours so even if Endor took 5 days who gives a shit? There are so many more instances of rapid hyperspace speeds that Endor becomes such an aberration that it can't stand.
I calced that once, though I have since lost the calculations. It works out to be over 1,000,000,000 times lightspeed, provided my calculations were correct.General Schatten wrote:You need only look at the Clone Wars, where Obi-wan was on Muunilist talking to Ki-Adi Mundi on Hypori, as soon as the conversation ended Obi-wan sent his ARC Troopers to help and Grievous started fighting Ki-Adi and half a dozen other Jedi, in less than fifteen minutes the ARC's appeared to save the day. Hypori is in the same sector as Tatooine and Geonosis.Vympel wrote:Because they don't accept EU evidence as to distances between planets, so they pretend it means nothing if Palpatine got to Mustafar in a matter of what is literally less than an hour.
They only spin copious amounts of bullshit about the distances actually explicitly stated - ie. the hundreds of light years from Sullust to Endor, and the Tatooine-to-Geonosis trip. Both are based on patently ludicrous premises that no normal person would bother with.
(Besides, the greater point is still - what kind of fuckwit wathces RotJ and thinks the trip took days?)
As you can see in this map, Muunilist is up in the section labeled 'Empire' and Tatooine and Geonosis on the bottom of the map along that little yellow trade route. Fifteen minutes.
Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know, the piper's calling you to join him
