Defiant's armor against projectiles

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Post by Thanatos »

Why the hell would the Dominion need to buy crap merchandise from a Karemma arms dealer?
They are apparently members of the Dominion.
If I'm remembering the episode right, they never said the weapons sucked, it was just that this particular torpedo was defective.
Yeah, Its mentioned (and later thrown back in his face) that they never produce substandard merchandise.
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:This is what you get when you have writers that are in love with WW2 battles, but don't do any research. That being said did you factor in the Defiants possibly direction and speed before they started evasive action?

This brings up a small rant of mine. WW2 tributes do not belong in space combat. It makes the battles slow, and unimaginative.
Yeah, the TOS episode Balance of Terror really sucked. :roll:
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

Damn Quarkj and his friend lucked out in a second way. The eal is apparently air tight or ...well death by decompresssion is prety nasty from what I understand.
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Typhonis 1 wrote:Damn Quarkj and his friend lucked out in a second way. The eal is apparently air tight or ...well death by decompresssion is prety nasty from what I understand.
Define "death by decompression". Methinks you've watched Total Recall too often.
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

The air pressure in the room drops to the boint where their blood boils, eardrums rupture and lack of oxygen mercifully causes them to pass out before brain ndeath due to lack of said oxygen.
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Post by Batman »

Typhonis 1 wrote:The air pressure in the room drops to the point where their blood boils, eardrums rupture and lack of oxygen mercifully causes them to pass out before brain ndeath due to lack of said oxygen.
Why, pray tell, should one's blood boil when it ISN'T exposed to vacuum on account of the rest of the body being in the way mostly?
Some exposed blood vessels will rupture. They do so on Earth every time you have a nosebleed.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

General Trelane (Retired) wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:This is what you get when you have writers that are in love with WW2 battles, but don't do any research. That being said did you factor in the Defiants possibly direction and speed before they started evasive action?

This brings up a small rant of mine. WW2 tributes do not belong in space combat. It makes the battles slow, and unimaginative.
Yeah, the TOS episode Balance of Terror really sucked. :roll:
Obviously you missed that important part where I said "don't do any research"

Only an idiot would look at World War II battles and think space faring races would have engagements fought at similar distances.
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Post by Batman »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
General Trelane (Retired) wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:This is what you get when you have writers that are in love with WW2 battles, but don't do any research. That being said did you factor in the Defiants possibly direction and speed before they started evasive action?
This brings up a small rant of mine. WW2 tributes do not belong in space combat. It makes the battles slow, and unimaginative.
Yeah, the TOS episode Balance of Terror really sucked. :roll:
Obviously you missed that important part where I said "don't do any research"
Only an idiot would look at World War II battles and think space faring races would have engagements fought at similar distances.
A pity Balance of Terror was canonically fought at distances WAY beyond that. The point (if I understood it correctly anyway) was to show that the 'surface ship vs sub' theme DID work despite being a WW2 tribute.
You want to complain about space faring races having battles at WW2 ranges? Try TNG.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Batman wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
General Trelane (Retired) wrote: Yeah, the TOS episode Balance of Terror really sucked. :roll:
Obviously you missed that important part where I said "don't do any research"
Only an idiot would look at World War II battles and think space faring races would have engagements fought at similar distances.
A pity Balance of Terror was canonically fought at distances WAY beyond that. The point (if I understood it correctly anyway) was to show that the 'surface ship vs sub' theme DID work despite being a WW2 tribute.
You want to complain about space faring races having battles at WW2 ranges? Try TNG.
If you actually read my first post you'll see that I my comment was about the OP topic (DS9). It seems the writers in both TNG and DS9 love WW2 combat so much that they thought the ranges should be similar.

Trelane then responded to me citing Balance of Terror, in what I thought was an amusingly dramatic manner, as an example of World War II tributes being done well.

He's right. However, it was done with the mindset that this is a still a battle of two space faring races.

Maybe I should say that space battles that are WW2 tributes are usually unimaginative, and boring.
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

my mistake then , about the blood boiling, but still it was interesting that the hit was so clean and so well fitted to the hull that no air was leaking out.
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Trelane then responded to me citing Balance of Terror, in what I thought was an amusingly dramatic manner, as an example of World War II tributes being done well.

He's right. However, it was done with the mindset that this is a still a battle of two space faring races.

Maybe I should say that space battles that are WW2 tributes are usually unimaginative, and boring.
Just so. The WW2 tributes that suck don't do so simply because they're tributes. They suck because of unimaginative writing. Balance of Terror shows that it can be done well.

Typhonis 1 wrote:my mistake then , about the blood boiling, but still it was interesting that the hit was so clean and so well fitted to the hull that no air was leaking out.
Trek has so many Insultingly Stupid Movie Physics that we need not go looking for ones that aren't there. Total Recall graphically illustrates what you thought happens to people in vacuum. Go watch 2001: A Space Odyssey instead.

And yes, this episode had many WTF moments. It's been years since a saw it (and with my pathetic internet access, no, I didn't check the link), but did they explain why once again couldn't use the transporter to solve this problem?
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

Excuse me? What I thought would happen is the sudden loss in air pressure woulkd cause their ear drums to rupture due too the sir pressure still inside their bodies being more than the outside. As they lay their screaming in pain their blood would then boil as gasses bubbled out from it, however they wouldn`t blow up like a ballon and fucking POP. They would start gasping for air before mercifully passing out due to lack of oxygen.

The part I got wrong was the blood boiling due too gasess leaking from it rapidly however a sudden rapid drop in a air pressure can damage the ear drums.
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

OK, you're excused.
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Post by Jark »

Typhonis 1 wrote:Damn Quarkj and his friend lucked out in a second way. The eal is apparently air tight or ...well death by decompresssion is prety nasty from what I understand.
They have forcefields that usually pop up in the event of a hull breach to seal any holes. I don't think this case was any different.
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Post by Batman »

Jark wrote:
Typhonis 1 wrote:Damn Quark and his friend lucked out in a second way. The eal is apparently air tight or ...well death by decompression is prety nasty from what I understand.
They have forcefields that usually pop up in the event of a hull breach to seal any holes. I don't think this case was any different.
Um-they have force fields sealing off corridors and sealing off sections of the ship in case of a hull breach. I don't think we ever saw one actually plug a hole in the actual hull, especially one with a torpedo stuck in it.
Okay, so technically we DID in Generations but still that was covering an actual and freakin big hole in the hull, not sealing in a buried-in-the-hull torpedo.
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Post by Gullible Jones »

Could be that the atmospheric pressure at their altitude is a bit higher than the ship's internal pressure, and the missile is so shaped that the pressure differential keeps it wedged in, thus preventing the ammonia and other assorted crap outside from spilling in.
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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Batman wrote:
Jark wrote:
Typhonis 1 wrote:Damn Quark and his friend lucked out in a second way. The eal is apparently air tight or ...well death by decompression is prety nasty from what I understand.
They have forcefields that usually pop up in the event of a hull breach to seal any holes. I don't think this case was any different.
Um-they have force fields sealing off corridors and sealing off sections of the ship in case of a hull breach. I don't think we ever saw one actually plug a hole in the actual hull, especially one with a torpedo stuck in it.
Okay, so technically we DID in Generations but still that was covering an actual and freakin big hole in the hull, not sealing in a buried-in-the-hull torpedo.
First off, you wouldn't die immediately being in a vaccum.

Second federation ships have shown emergency force field projection in the case of hull breach. Though undoubtedly weaker than the hull should be, they do provide temporary protection against breeches. This occurs in generations when the Enterprise-B goes into that rift thing that has that sort of heaven place.

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Post by Batman »

RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:
Batman wrote:
Jark wrote: They have forcefields that usually pop up in the event of a hull breach to seal any holes. I don't think this case was any different.
Um-they have force fields sealing off corridors and sealing off sections of the ship in case of a hull breach. I don't think we ever saw one actually plug a hole in the actual hull, especially one with a torpedo stuck in it.
Okay, so technically we DID in Generations but still that was covering an actual and freakin big hole in the hull, not sealing in a buried-in-the-hull torpedo.
First off, you wouldn't die immediately being in a vacuum.
Which nobody ever claimed to begin with and thanks for not reading the thread.
Second federation ships have shown emergency force field projection in the case of hull breach. Though undoubtedly weaker than the hull should be, they do provide temporary protection against breeches. This occurs in generations when the Enterprise-B goes into that rift thing that has that sort of heaven place.
And thanks for not reading the post of mine you replied to, either. Notice the bolded?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Much as I hate to defend Star Trek, some not very correct assumptions are being made here.
Stark wrote: The best part for me is that the crystal is BLUNT. Best penetrator ever, and the internal luminence makes it seem quite low mass too. Low mass, low speed, blunt... :)
Doesn’t matter if its blunt, most large armor piercing projectiles are blunt, because with so much mass behind them a point would crush on impact points also happens to make a ricochet more likely. Specialist concrete piercing projectiles and bombs actually have almost completely flat heads as this gives the very best results in that kind of material.

Just take a look at this 16in shell. Notice the not very sharp looking shell body, and especially the flat headed AP cap. Only the hollow windscreen is actually pointy.
Darth Wong wrote:You have to love the way the warhead cone was not deformed by the impact at all, so they could open an access panel as if it came fresh off the assembly line.
In WW2 more then one ship was hit by a dud armor piercing capped shell, which lodged inside the ship and then had its base fuse unscrewed to render it safe. I don’t know if a round ever pierced armor and then had this operation performed, but it’s certainly within the realm of possibility. Armor piercing shells had to be exceptional ridge under immense shocks, any deformation could induce an explosion in the bursting charge before the shell finished piercing the armor plate, or it might disable the delay action fuse thus preventing a detonation at all. This is why you add an armor piercing cap to many kinds of AP projectiles. The cap gets smashed, but the separate piece of metal that is the projectile body survives.

Do we ever see the nose of this thing before it hits to see if it has an armor piercing cap?
Darth Wong wrote:Obviously, 36 km/h isn't high velocity for a bullet, but it's plenty of speed for a relatively massive object which experiences no deformation after coming to a sudden stop after punching through a solid wall.
Here’s what happens to a high explosive shell (no cap here) weighing 148kg after it comes to a stop from 500mps via impacts on the hull plating and internal bulkheads of battleship USS Teaxs in 1944. As you can see; not much.

Real life naval torpedoes have very considerable kinetic energy, though they are faster then a mere 36kph. In his book Japanese Destroyer Captain, Tameichi Hara recounted how an American 21in torpedo left a neat round 21in hole in his ships rudder (one of the strongest underwater parts of a ship) in one engagement. In other cases ships are known to have sank from the damage caused by dud torpedo hits, though this was not typical.


As for battle ranges, Star Trek typically underestimates ranges even by WW2 naval standards. In many cases its more like the ranges WW2 tanks fought at.
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Post by wjs7744 »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Just take a look at this 16in shell. Notice the not very sharp looking shell body, and especially the flat headed AP cap. Only the hollow windscreen is actually pointy.
Heh, that one on the left reminds me of a pistol round. I'm guessing the windshield is to improve the aerodynamics of the shell, right? That wouldn't be an issue in space, of course. This was inside an atmosphere, though. What effect would that have on the torpedo?
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

wjs7744 wrote:Heh, that one on the left reminds me of a pistol round. I'm guessing the windshield is to improve the aerodynamics of the shell, right?
Yup, it’s known most properly (windshield and windscreen are both also correct) as a ballistic cap, as it serves to improve the drag coefficient of the shell,. The complete piece of ammo is known as Armor Piercing Capped Ballistic Capped, or APCBC.

That wouldn't be an issue in space, of course. This was inside an atmosphere, though. What effect would that have on the torpedo?
At 36kph drag isn’t much of an issue, though I suppose it might explain why the torpedo was moving so absurdly slowly. Real life torpedoes have fairly blunt noses though, at low speeds a blunt nose works just fine for reducing drag. Pointy noses have the advantage of well, being pointy, but that point also increases the surface area of the projectile and at low speed it may add as much drag from friction over the larger area as it kills by being pointy.
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